Dear Wendy
Dear Wendy

Friday Links

Here are a few things from around the web that may interest you:

lead

“Why We Sleep Together” [via The Atlantic]

“Fat and Happy—and Loved” [via The New Inquiry]

“Lean Out: The Dangers for Women Who Negotiate” [via The New Yorker]

“4 Lies the Church Taught Me About Sex” [via Relevant Magazine]

Um…Wow. “The Best Way to End Violence Against Women: Stop taking Lovers and Get Married” Actually! The best way to end violence against women is for people to stop being violent against women. [via The Washington Post]

“A Fantastic Photo Series To Help Us Think About the Mommy Wars” [via Upworthy]

Thank you to those who submitted links for me to include. If you see something around the web you think DW readers would appreciate, please send me a link to wendy@dearwendy.com and if it’s a fit, I’ll include it in Friday’s round-up. Thanks!

Follow along on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

72 comments… add one
  • katie

    katie June 13, 2014, 12:41 pm

    the sleeping together one is cool! i sleep better alone. sometimes i look forward to traveling because i know im going to have at *least* a queen bed to myself and like 5 pillows. jake says that he sleeps better when i am at home, but he also said how he started sleeping so much better after we got our king bed, so he had more of his own space (we are short people, in a king we dont have to touch if we dont want to). so i think its true that its more of a camaraderie/attachment thing, a mental reason that people want to sleep together.

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    • GatorGirl

      GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 12:52 pm

      I don’t sleep well alone in the house, I get really anxious about “bad things” happening at night.
      .
      I think I would sleep better with out a cat though. That thing keeps me up all night.

      Reply Link
    • othy

      othy June 13, 2014, 12:53 pm

      Othello’s a cuddler, and as I’ve gotten older, I need more space. I like it when he comes to bed late, because it gives me time to stretch out and sleep for a while before he comes to bed. And, it’s particularly bad when it’s summer and hot. He still wants to cuddle and I can’t stand the added heat.
      .
      We also only have a full bed (we have a very small bedroom), and I’d love a king.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      jlyfsh June 13, 2014, 12:57 pm

      yeah i sleep better when i’m cuddling with my dogs. but, i think i sleep the same if m is home vs if he isn’t. when i travel though i usually don’t sleep well, unless i can bring my favorite pillow.

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      • katie

        katie June 13, 2014, 1:03 pm

        i used to not sleep well when i traveled, but now that its so normal to me i think ive just gotten used to it, you know?

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      • avatar

        jlyfsh June 13, 2014, 1:10 pm

        oh i’m sure that’s true!

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      • avatar

        d2 June 13, 2014, 10:35 pm

        Yup. When I travel for work I get more sleep than when I am at home. I go to the room after dinner, then read or something and doze off. I don’t have all the distractions that I would at home, so I end up going to sleep earlier. I’m just not the “I’m away from home, so let’s party!” kind of person.

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    • avatar

      lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 12:57 pm

      We almost never sleep in the same bed. I practically refer to “our” room as my room and the guest room as his bedroom. I will say I think we both sleep better under the same roof at least, but definitely not in the same bed.

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 1:00 pm

        This is so crazy to me!

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 1:01 pm

        Haha, probably to a lot of people. I snore, have sleep apnea and restless legs in bed. Trust me, no matter how much you love me, you won’t love sleeping with me. And Peter is a beast without sleep, as am I.

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 1:03 pm

        How do you have sleepy just waking up morning sex? If I get out of bed I’m wide awake and my brain starts running. My aunt and uncle don’t sleep together, but it’s because they don’t like each other. I should tell my mom about this. My dad snores TERRIBLY and likes to sleep with the tv on, and she hates both.

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 1:06 pm

        Peter wakes up long before I do. I can’t remember the last time I woke up before him. Bonus to this: coffee brought to me in bed every morning, sometimes with sleepy sex included.

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 1:14 pm

        Huh, interesting. GGuy usually wakes up before I do on the weekends and just sneaks out of bed. I guess it’s similar.

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      • katie

        katie June 13, 2014, 1:02 pm

        yea i could totally see living this way. i dont feel the need to now, just because with our king i think we are ok, but there are definitely times i would rather be alone.
        .
        actually jake has been doing the sexy-waking-me-up thing recently and its starting to freak me out. i need to talk to him about that.

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 1:04 pm

        Haha, I would like more of the sexy wake me up thing! Not sleeping together though has probably been a Top 3 game changer for us. We’re much better this way.

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      • katie

        katie June 13, 2014, 1:07 pm

        do you guys go into each others beds after you wake up? i would totally do that if we slept separately. a perfect morning for me is waking up and then staying bed for like another hour while i play on my phone or have sex or talk or cuddle with the cats or whatever. id totally just wake up, go to the other bed, and then spend the morning together in bed.

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 1:07 pm

        Yea, he comes into “my” room every morning.

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      • avatar

        Sara June 13, 2014, 1:12 pm

        S and I sleep in separate rooms about once a week – more if one of us is sick. I really love my night alone. I read as long as I want, and I sleep diagonal across the bed. And no one steels the covers. It’s wonderful. And, like LBH, we’re much better people with enough sleep.

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    • Portia

      Portia June 13, 2014, 1:05 pm

      For me the proximity/space thing isn’t an issue (even though we’re both pretty tall and comfortably share a full). The problem is Bassanio’s a fidgeter. I’ve even used those sleeping pattern apps to get to the root of it so I know when to sleep on the couch (I wake up to movement). I think our next bed is going to be the one in the commercials where they jump on the bed with the glass of wine? Because I’ve had far too many sleepless nights and Bassanio is more insistent on sleeping in the same bed.

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    • avatar

      Lily in NYC June 13, 2014, 1:12 pm

      That was an interesting article. I guess I’m a weirdo because I just cannot share a bed. Thankfully my boyfriend is the same way. We go to bed together but one of us usually gets up and moves to a different bed after a little while because we are both light sleepers/insomniacs.

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    • Fabelle

      Fabelle June 13, 2014, 5:40 pm

      Okay, sleeping– I was never great about sharing a bed, like with my first boyfriend ever we’d usually spend part of the night together only & with my most recent ex we usually slept separately whenever I’d spend the night. With Fabello, we started “hooking up” by just SLEEPING together, usually, with some sexual-ness involved, but mostly sleeping/cuddling. So I got used to cuddling him, & now we always sleep together. At parties, we’ll pass out on the smallest couch/futon & the host will be like, “you know we can open that into a bed…” & we’re like NAH.
      .
      I do get more QUALITY sleep alone though? Like I read this thing once (maybe the article mentions it?) that in ~general~ men sleep better with their partners, & women sleep worse BUT they *feel* better not being alone? I think that’s accurate (again, GENERALLY, & obviously speaking for heterosexual relationships only)
      .
      Alsooo (as an addendum) I’ve been not so cuddly lately because I think I’m old? Like my body just doesn’t like to be twisted that way anymore?

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    • Fabelle

      Fabelle June 13, 2014, 5:44 pm

      ALSO (I can go on and on about this, sleep habits within the context of a relationship are fascinating to me) I also like when my hours line up with my partner’s? I’m an early riser–like not CRAZY early on weekends, but definitely 8 or 9 o’clock I want to be up–& I can’t stand when my S/O sleeps in? I mean, I don’t expect them to rise with me, but I hate when they’re dead to the world. Fabello will sleep in, but he’ll usually wake up enough to respond to me etc. when I wake up. But that’s just me–sleeping over friends’ houses & whatnot, I’m the same way–like a little child on Christmas? Just watching their faces & movements, HOPING they’ll wake up?
      .
      OKAY now that I outed myself as a creep….ha

      Reply Link
    • CatsMeow

      CatsMeow June 14, 2014, 2:18 am

      I prefer sleeping alone. I have a California king, which I know is huge, but it’s still not big enough for me to share. I can survive, but I’m such a BAD sleeper. I toss and turn all night every night and have restless legs or something. I especially don’t like trying to cuddle while I’m sleeping. Also I like to have the TV on (or laptop in my case) as well as the ceiling fan, which most other people don’t like
      .
      That said, I spoon my cat every night. Seriously, I say, “Zekie tum tuddle!” and he curls up beside me and I hold him like a teddy bear.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      MsMisery June 16, 2014, 12:47 pm

      In a previous life (i.e. when I dated) I HATED sharing a bed with people. Everything about it. I hated when they’d make a noise, or move the bed, or fall asleep before me, or wake up before me, or have some nighttime idiosyncrasy that I had to tolerate (like sleeping with the TV on), or being “poked” awake. I can totally understand why happily cohabitating couples would sleep apart.

      Reply Link
  • GatorGirl

    GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 1:17 pm

    I didn’t love the mommy wars photo piece. Maybe I just didn’t get it? Looking at the photos…it sort of seemed to be pitting the two sides against each other, more than saying they accept each other.

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    • katie

      katie June 13, 2014, 1:22 pm

      i didnt get it either? like, some ladies holding up signs. what is the point?

      Reply Link
      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 1:25 pm

        Right? And I didn’t think they where compelling photos either…they all looked cluttered to me.

        Link
      • avatar

        jlyfsh June 13, 2014, 1:27 pm

        i’m not sure the way they went about it was the best. but, there is a video at this link that they made that explains it better. i think they were trying to show that they can be different and still be friends and they don’t need to judge one another’s ideas. at least that’s what i took away from it after reading a bit more about it and watching part of the video.

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      • avatar

        jlyfsh June 13, 2014, 1:28 pm

        and i guess sharing the link would be helpful. http://ctworkingmoms.com/campaign-for-judgement-free-motherhood/

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      • katie

        katie June 13, 2014, 1:33 pm

        yea i think it just wasnt a very effective series of photos…

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      • avatar

        jlyfsh June 13, 2014, 1:38 pm

        oh no i agree with that, i think there are better ways to show that. especially since to figure out exactly what they were trying to say you have to read/listen to other things. but, i don’t think this was professionally done either, so i’m sure that affects the ‘polished’/effectiveness of it.

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 1:35 pm

        I agree that’s what they are trying to show, I just don’t think it was done well. The signs are bulky and weird to me. It’s a great cause, and going to their site it does flow better than the DW link, but I still think it’s not great.
        .
        I guess I think there is more value in just talking about not judging, than creating these images where they look in opposition. And it doesn’t really represent the million shades of grey in between a lot of these issues.

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    • lemongrass

      lemongrass June 13, 2014, 3:16 pm

      Tbh I feel like if you want to avoid mommy wars then stay off the internet. I have occasionally heard a judgy comment from other moms but never anything directly to someone’s face. I just remind myself that people who judge about different parenting choices are probably just uninformed about the issue. I know I’ve thought things were silly- like baby sign language up until E got to the age where he couldn’t quite say the word for what he wanted and started whining when he wanted something. F that! So I looked up a few signs, taught him them and it was easy and now he rarely whines. All of my mom friends have made different choices and we never fight about it.

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 3:28 pm

        I’ve had things come up in person, but not with friends. Its hard to not get offended right away by a comment that probably wasn’t meant to be offensive, but I’m trying to get there at least. Its funny though – I used to silently judge my mom for things she’d do and now I get her reasoning.

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      • lemongrass

        lemongrass June 13, 2014, 3:33 pm

        Yeah now that I think more about it, I have had comments. My one sister didn’t breastfeed very long and she said “I can’t imagine nursing a kid that is standing” while laughing and that hurt a bit. But with reflection the hurt was coming from me and not her, it’s not up to her to make me feel good about all my choices, I just have to feel secure in my parenting. I know that I don’t have to feel okay right away when I hear stuff like that as long as I eventually feel okay.

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 3:38 pm

        Yes, perfect example! I’m sure she didn’t say it to make you feel bad, but of course she said something about disagreeing with your decision that you presumably made with the best of intentions for your kid – so, its gonna hurt to hear that someone thinks your parenting decision wasn’t a good one.

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      • lemongrass

        lemongrass June 13, 2014, 3:43 pm

        That’s the thing though, I don’t think she thinks my choice was a bad one. I don’t think she thinks her choice was bad either, they are just different like our families are and she just actually couldn’t imagine what it would have been like for her to still be nursing at the age that I did. When I weaned E at 15 months she was already pregnant with her 3rd kid (she had 3 back to back) so it was a completely different circumstance. But yet my initial reaction was hurt because I felt different=bad when really it just means different.

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 3:32 pm

        I think to a degree, it’s because on the internet you can be as rude as you want and you’re hiding behind a screen. In person you have to own up to your rudeness.
        .
        I hope when I ask my bff baby questions/for her opinion it doesn’t come across as judging. We where talking about weaning when I was home, I hope I didn’t put my foot in my mouth.

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      • lemongrass

        lemongrass June 13, 2014, 3:37 pm

        It probably doesn’t. I think most moms like to talk about why they make the choices they do, I know I do. If it helps you can ask me anything you want!

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 3:46 pm

        Oh you’ll get some FB messages here in the future! Don’t worry. I assume I didn’t offend her, because we have similar views on most baby related things, and I generally just ask questions about what she does and sometimes why they chose it. But it’s all coming from a place of wanting to learn about different parenting styles so I can make my own choices. You know? Haha.

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      • lemongrass

        lemongrass June 13, 2014, 3:49 pm

        Ps. I weaned E not long ago and it was easy peasy. I was expecting it to be much worse from what I read on it but I think he was ready and that was it. We actually had a really nice end to it.

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 3:54 pm

        Her babe is 14 months and is basically weaning herself. She dropped from 4 or 5 times a day to like maybe 2 in the past month. It’s all so interesting to me!

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      • lemongrass

        lemongrass June 13, 2014, 4:13 pm

        Yup that’s what happened to us. It’s nice because E still needs to be close to me, before he would nurse and now he wants hugs and kisses, which he never did before. It feels so good when he runs up to me just to give me a hug and kiss and then runs off to play!

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  • avatar

    Daisy June 13, 2014, 2:20 pm

    The “Fat and Happy—and Loved” article really hit home with me. During the past year and a half or so I’ve gained about 25-30 pounds. During the same time I was in the best relationship of my life and ultimately got married about 2 months ago. I see my parents about twice a year, and when I saw them last spring my mother actually commented that she’d never seen me “so fat or so happy.”

    I’m definitely not thrilled about my weight gain, and at times it does get me pretty down. But I’m trying hard to focus on the ‘happy’ part rather than the ‘fat.’ My husband loves me and I’m healthy, and my mom was absolutely right that I’m happier than I’ve ever been.

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    • GatorGirl

      GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 2:55 pm

      I hate hate hate that stupid Kate Moss quote. It makes me sick to my stomach.
      .
      I totally agree with you though. I am the heaviest I’ve been in probably 15 years, and I am SO happy. It was hard to learn to accept a different body than the one I’d idealized, but I have and it’s so much better than obsessing over every pound.

      Reply Link
    • katie

      katie June 13, 2014, 3:05 pm

      after i read my husbands secret (really good btw! i loved it), i am reading what alice forgot, and there is this great quote in it i sent to jake- “nick had a little boys sweet tooth and an appreciation of good food, fine wine , and beautiful weather; eating and drinking with nick in hot sunshine was like sex. he made her feel like a well fed happy cat: plump, sleek, purring with sensual satisfaction”
      .
      “well fed happy cat” is my new term for ultimate happiness.

      Reply Link
  • iwannatalktosampson

    iwannatalktosampson June 13, 2014, 3:15 pm

    Ah this Friday’s Links are so good and I’m too busy to read them right now. I can’t wait to get home and put on yoga pants and drink beer and read about all this shit. I logged on right when these were posted and I was looking forward to the comment section blowing up and now like two hours later it’s like nothing… GUYS these are such good links. Make me happy tonight.

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  • lemongrass

    lemongrass June 13, 2014, 3:21 pm

    The violence against women article made me mad. It is victim blaming and in a worse way than I thought before I read it- if you grew up in a two parent married household then you won’t get raped. Nope, not true. If you are lucky enough not to cross paths with a rapist you won’t get raped. This article is just ridiculous. If we followed its line of thinking then the way to end gay violence is to keep people in the closet. We need to stop blaming people for the crimes committed against them and place blame where it’s due.

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    • GatorGirl

      GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 3:30 pm

      Yes, I just can’t. The first thing that came to mind was that this is all correlation not causation and the author is a dickhead.

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      • lemongrass

        lemongrass June 13, 2014, 3:35 pm

        Yup. We have had a society where damn near everyone got married and it didn’t stop violence against women it just made women quieter. Perhaps now it’s not that marriage makes men less likely to be violent but that the men getting married today are the kind of men that are already less likely to be violent.

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  • katie

    katie June 13, 2014, 3:36 pm

    i found the violence against women one, i dont even remember where. super weird though right? like how is that a thing?
    .
    what it did make me thing of- is a two parent married household a privilege? like is that culture- im thinking a suburbs kind of culture- is there a certain privilege associated with that? i have no idea of any marriage demographics that would point to this, but it just got me thinking. and then, what is the thing that makes it so that married households have less rape and violence in them? like do rapists not like marriage? and then, where would a non-marriage long term relationship with children fall? so many questions.

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    • avatar

      HmC June 13, 2014, 4:31 pm

      “is a two parent married household a privilege? like is that culture- im thinking a suburbs kind of culture- is there a certain privilege associated with that?”

      Yes! Not exactly the same thing as a two parent household, but very related- Marriage itself is getting more and more out of reach for lower income, lower privilege people.

      “And of all the transformations our family structures have undergone in the past 50 years, perhaps the most profound is the marriage differential that has opened between the rich and the poor. In 1960 the median household income of married adults was 12% higher than that of single adults, after adjusting for household size. By 2008 this gap had grown to 41%. In other words, the richer and more educated you are, the more likely you are to marry, or to be married — or, conversely, if you’re married, you’re more likely to be well off”

      Source: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2032116,00.html

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 4:35 pm

        How is marriage itself out of reach? Or why? Its not like it costs a ton of money just to get/be married.

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      • GatorGirl

        GatorGirl June 13, 2014, 4:37 pm

        Yeah, I’ve never really understood this either. I get why a wedding may be out of reach, but the cost of actually legally signing for forms isn’t that much.

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      • avatar

        lets_be_honest June 13, 2014, 4:42 pm

        I was also thinking, sure, its a privilege (ugh hate that word) bc there’s 2 incomes then, but that’s not always true. I guess suburb living is a privilege if its a nice, safe suburb though, but then living anywhere nice and safe is a privilege.

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      • avatar

        HmC June 13, 2014, 6:10 pm

        Privilege in this context just means something that’s exclusive or out of reach (or just more difficult to attain) for certain groups, it doesn’t mean something that is objectively better. There’s an argument that marriage is a good thing for a lot of people, but that’s a separate analysis.

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      • avatar

        HmC June 13, 2014, 5:58 pm

        That’s the topic of the article. I don’t think it really answers that question, but it posits theories.

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      • katie

        katie June 13, 2014, 4:37 pm

        Wow very interesting. So then, what lets said, why is marriage becoming not a thing for lower income people?

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      • avatar

        HmC June 13, 2014, 6:02 pm

        The article explores theories as to why that may be the case, but it doesn’t really come to a conclusion on it. Something about how higher educated people see marriage as more of a capstone at the end of their education, whereas lower income people see a marriage/wedding as something to do when you are financially stable. And since there are less and less blue collar jobs, getting financially stable without education is harder and harder. There’s also something about higher educated women being in a better position to demand marriage which a lot of people would probably find to be pretty sexist or insulting (ie. like it’s saying that only women want marriage).

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  • Miss MJ

    Miss MJ June 13, 2014, 4:02 pm

    On the DV article, isn’t it just as likely that women are less likely to report violence against them by their husbands (or, I guess, their fathers in the case of children)? Instead of involving the authorities, a woman may just leave her marriage or leave home, in which case, those numbers would never even be in the pool of whatever statistics the author is considering. Have there been any studies on that?

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    • theattack

      theattack June 13, 2014, 7:21 pm

      Yes, and yes. Definitely. This is anecdotal, but so far in my short three months at this job, I’ve totally seen that. There are fewer married women coming in for help in the first place, but when they do come in, most of them have been abused for years already. They wait years and years to do anything about it, but I’ve seen several dating relationships where people will look for help even within a few weeks. Not everyone, of course, but in general people haven’t waited as long if they’re not married.

      We can speculate all day on why that is, but some really compelling reasons: 1) They are financially entangled with their husbands, and if he gets locked up or loses his job, she loses a home for herself and her kids. 2) She doesn’t want him in trouble. Just wants the abuse to stop. He said he was going to stop, and he made a real change for several months. 3) She thinks she can’t keep him out of their home because he owns it too, or he’s the only one that owns it.

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    • avatar

      MsMisery June 16, 2014, 1:00 pm

      Yes, and until recently (speaking broadly) police had discretion as to whether to even prosecute when called into a DV situation.

      I know the first experience I had regarding physical violence from a man in my life was from my step-father in high school. What the hell does the author suggest I had done about that? Get married, I guess? “Married women are notably safer than their unmarried peers”…. EXCEPT FROM THEIR HUSBANDS- the person most likely to inflict violence on a woman!

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  • avatar

    HmC June 13, 2014, 4:26 pm

    “What’s more: women who are married are more likely to live in safer neighborhoods, to have a partner who is watching out for their physical safety, and—for obvious reasons—to spend less time in settings that increase their risk of rape, robbery, and assaults.”

    You know I am a defender of marriage, and I can be kind of conservative-ish(?) I think? I believe that there are a lot of good, rational reasons to marry. But give me an everloving motherfucking break with that last part. “For obvious reasons” = “sluts be slumming and gettin themselves raped”??!! wtf

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    • katie

      katie June 13, 2014, 4:35 pm

      Yea I didn’t get that either! What happened to girls nights? Married women never go out and party? Are they all only ever with their husbands doing couple stuff? Come on…
      .
      Also, what “settings” are we even talking about here that only the married women know about?

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      • avatar

        HmC June 13, 2014, 6:04 pm

        “Settings” – you know sleazy bars that only sluts and whores looking to be attacked go to. UGH

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  • cmary

    cmary June 13, 2014, 4:40 pm

    I actually agree, mostly, with the violence against women article.
    .
    But wait, don’t kick me off the site. I can explain.
    .
    I think it could be written better to get the point across, but I do agree that having a stable home environment, whatever that looks like, helps people make better relationship choices. I think, as a woman, having a strong male influence, men who you know you can count on and who are looking out for you (father, brother, whatever), makes it less important to find some other guy to fill that role. If you never learn how you’re supposed to be treated it’s harder to spot the wrong kind of treatment.

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    • lemongrass

      lemongrass June 13, 2014, 5:11 pm

      Sorry but I grew with a great father, my parents are still married and I made good dating choices. That did nothing to stop me from getting raped or groped while at the mall. Frankly I shouldn’t need a male protector.

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      • lemongrass

        lemongrass June 13, 2014, 5:15 pm

        Not to mention the women that are abused by their husbands. Like I said above, we have had a culture that put pressure on women to get married and stay married, that did nothing to stop women from being abused/raped it just kept them quiet.

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      • cmary

        cmary June 13, 2014, 5:40 pm

        Okay, I did NOT explain that well. And I definitely didn’t mean that it was a complete blanket protection against all of the ills of society. And I for shit sake didn’t mean to offend you, or anyone. You’re honestly one of my favorite people on here.

        Maybe I read it wrong. I’ll re-read and remove foot from mouth. Or keyboard, as the case may be.

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  • avatar

    HmC June 13, 2014, 6:52 pm

    As a woman who negotiates for a living and barks at everyone to negotiate the fuck out of their salary, that lean out article is super depressing.

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    • avatar

      Jiggs June 16, 2014, 10:52 am

      It is so depressing. But still, my official position on that is “fuck that shit”. The author spends the whole article telling women to be OMG SO CAREFUL about negotiating because it will be perceived badly by their employer. I will accept a good offer (and I recently did – I had an “ask” in mind and their first offer met it, so great) but if I feel someone is not offering me what the market says I am worth in my field and level of experience, damn right I will ask for more. To me, an offer is by definition the opening salvo of a negotiation, and employers should expect some negotiation to occur. I would have appreciated some tips on negotiating for women in a culture where it’s frowned upon by many.

      The author’s example is a bad one because the person involved sent a list of demands that were not common to her industry, at least not at the type of employer she was speaking to. But her poor negotiation skills do not mean women everywhere shouldn’t ask for something. Frankly if people are offended by me negotiating their offer they are going to HATE working with me!

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      MsMisery June 16, 2014, 12:53 pm

      It is, but also not surprising. Negotiating = aggressive. And aggressive women are still bitches. Who wants a buncha bitches around the office? (that’s sarcasm, sad dejected sarcasm).

      In my office, it is not my manager or even HR who decides raises. It is the corporate office. So most people get approved for the max (which is paltry and means that you get it whether you work hard or work with your head up your @$$ or not). But if you try to negotiate for more, you get six people telling you it’s out of their hands.

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