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“I’ve Been Banned from my Guy Friend’s Life”

I have been good friends with this guy, Devon, since we met in College almost 10 years. While we were in college, we discussed whether we should be more than friends. We made out, tried to have sex, but generally didn’t have any type of romantic or intimate relationship beyond friendship. We maintained our friendship outside of college, despite moves and girlfriends and boyfriends.

Over a year ago, I married the love of my life and seriously considered putting Devon in our wedding party. Devon has become great friends with my husband; they met about three years before we got married. About two years ago Devon started seriously dating this girl, Holly. She seemed great, though intense, and we had a few couple dates together. Holly came with Devon to our wedding a year ago, and Devon proposed about six months after that. Holly and I got together lots while they were planning their wedding. During a drunk moment with Holly, right before their wedding, I let slip that Devon and I had some of those awkward friends-thinking-about-being-something-else moments. Apparently, Devon never told Holly about them, and her reaction was to ban me from speaking with Devon ever again, including defriending me on Facebook.

I’m not sure what to do now. I don’t think I’m a threat to Holly and Devon’s relationship at all; I’m a happily married woman, and have been for over a year. Not to mention that I never thought of Devon romantically, and in the end we did little more than see each other naked and kiss on New Year’s Eve. I never hang out with Devon alone — always with someone, usually my husband…

It’s devastating to lose a friend. Any advice? — Friendly Foul

Good God, the last thing any woman needs in the weeks and days leading up to her wedding — a hyper-charged anxious, emotional and stressful time — is some other woman drunkenly replaying awkward intimate moments she had with her fiancé. Frankly, if I were Holly and you were telling me you once tried to be more than just friends with the guy I was about to marry, I probably wouldn’t feel too kindly towards you either. What were you thinking?! Even if Devon had told her about your brief attempt at romance, it would be utterly inappropriate for you to address it with Holly at all, let alone right before she’s about to get married.

This has nothing to do with you being a threat to Holly and Devon’s relationship, which, by the way, would have more to do with their union then your own, anyway (I mean, who cares if you’re happily married? Are you implying that if you weren’t, you would be a threat to them?? Have you considered that you aren’t a threat to their relationship because Devon is in love with Holly and doesn’t think about you in a romantic way?). This is about respect — something you showed a lack of when you went mouthing off just before their wedding. At this point, your best bet at getting back into the good graces of these people — and perhaps eventually rekindling a friendship with them — is to show that you do respect their relationship. For that, you’ll need to give them space and a genuine apology. Reach out to Devon first and apologize for sticking your big ol’ foot in your mouth. Tell him you don’t know what got into you and you’re mortified to have dampened in any way what should have been one of the happiest times in his life. Tell him that you understand if Holly doesn’t want to see or talk to you, but that you would be grateful to have the opportunity to apologize to her directly if and when she’s ready. And then leave them both alone. And don’t be surprised if you never hear from them again.

I know it’s rough to lose a friend. And it sucks that this happened. And maybe it seems like a big deal was made over something somewhat trivial, but the truth is you brought this on yourself. You did a dumb thing … and for no good reason. It was Holly and Devon’s moment. It was their time. It was a period of celebrating their union and you wedged yourself in there, in what seems to be some sort of attempt at marking your territory and making things about you. And now the damage is done, and you need to back off and let time do its thing. If you’re lucky, eventually this will blow over, everyone will move on and you’ll be able to have some sort of relationship with Devon again, though I wouldn’t count on ever being as tight as you once were. That ship, I’m afraid, has probably sailed.

*If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, send me your letters at wendy@dearwendy.com and be sure to follow me on Twitter.

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{ 145 comments… add one }

avatar TMSC September 6, 2011, 3:13 pm

I do see where Wendy is coming from, and I agree with much of what she said, including her advice in how to move forward. It was a bit insensitive to bring up this topic around this woman’s wedding. However, I do think “banning” the LW from talking to her future husband was going a bit overboard. I am about to get married, and I get that it is stressful, and I wouldn’t be too pleased to find out something like that. But it was a long time ago, and obviously there is no threat. If she trusts her husband, this shouldn’t be an issue beyond some awkwardness. It’s one thing to cool her own friendship with the LW, but I think the banning is a bit controlling. Maybe after the wedding, take Wendy’s advice and try to smooth things over with Devon first (we don’t even know how he felt about this) and then his bride.

Budj Budjer September 6, 2011, 3:14 pm

Pretty sure rule number one of maintaining CLOSE platonic friends of the opposite sex that you have any romantic history with (however brief) is to not tell your (or worse your friends) current significant other about that portion of your history if you want to keep them as a close friend….unless of course it is widely already known.

avatar LennyBee September 6, 2011, 3:48 pm

I don’t know – I would rather know up front. My boyfriend has a close platonic friend whom he very briefly dated years ago. They’re very close – he’s godfather to her firstborn. But it has never bothered me for several reasons: 1. I trust my boyfriend and his feelings for me; 2. it was years ago; and 3. he was upfront with me about this minor detail of his past. If he had hidden it, and I had found out accidentally I probably would have been upset and jealous. I would have felt like he was hiding it. And if you’re purposely hiding a part of your past, there’s a reason, and it’s usually not good news.

Budj Budjer September 6, 2011, 3:59 pm

You have good points, but in my experience those situations never end up well and there is always tension…I’m glad your’s sounds better.

I’ve never been in that situation and probably never will..but from what I’ve witnessed throughout my life jealousy is a constant thing in those relationship triangles and it only gets worse when partners find out about romantic histories.

avatar Riefer September 6, 2011, 3:53 pm

Is that an accepted rule? Sorry to make this all about me :) but I was wondering if people generally agree, because I have several close male friends who I slept with in the past, but who are totally platonic now. They were even at my wedding. However, my husband doesn’t know, as it happened way before I ever met him. I kind of feel like I’m hiding something from him, but I also feel like it’s none of his business what I did in my sexual past before I started dating him (unless it involved STDs or something, which it doesn’t). Do people generally agree with Budjer?

avatar Maracuya September 6, 2011, 3:59 pm

I don’t know, I’m sure Holly was just blindsided because those two hang out all the time and she became really good friends with her and (if she’s not in the LW’s friend group to begin with) realized everyone knew but her. I think the secrecy, timing and delivery is the bigger deal. “Oh, yeah, I know you and Devon are getting married but fun fact: We made out and wanted to do it, trololol. Isn’t that funny?!”

Budj Budjer September 6, 2011, 4:07 pm

Absolutely not a rule. More tongue in cheek comment. I personally am a jealous person and know this so I just steer clear of women that like to befriend predominantly men because I know I would cause too many issues.

Budj Budjer September 6, 2011, 4:10 pm

I want to edit that for redundancies, but can’t. Some men are very secure and can handle their s/o having been with guys that they are still close friends with, but other’s can’t…I’m one of them…either way you didn’t do anything wrong, but if you’ve gone this long you probably shouldn’t mention it unless you know for a fact your husband is one of the guys not like me, haha.

avatar honeybeenicki September 6, 2011, 4:45 pm

Its not just men. Women can go either way too. I’m generally not a very jealous person, personally, but I know a lot of girls who would have problems with it and some that wouldn’t. My husband has 2 kids with his ex-wife, so I have come to terms with the fact that he must have (at least twice) slept with someone other than me.

avatar LennyBee September 6, 2011, 4:19 pm

I don’t know if there is a general rule. My boyfriend and I are practically puritans with so little previous dating history that leaving anything out is akin to leaving most of your dating history out. I might not want to know if he had several close friends whom he’d slept with in the past. I suppose if you have a lot of dating history it wouldn’t seem necessary to discuss everything.

avatar Riefer September 6, 2011, 4:29 pm

Thanks for the input all. Sounds like it could go either way, and I’m basically ok here. BTW his best friend is a woman, she was the best man at our wedding. If he slept with her, I really don’t want to know. They’re obviously platonic now, and it would just be awkward to know that they’d been more than friends at one point. So hopefully he feels the same (I think he does).

avatar Temperance September 8, 2011, 2:12 pm

I 100% disagree with Budjer. Starting out a relationship on a foundation of lies sucks.

avatar jena September 7, 2011, 2:50 pm

Alternatively, your partner could trust you and you could disclose what happened instead of hiding it and having a situation like LW’s.
Hiding parts of your life is silly. Trust in a relationship is important and if they can’t trust you to be around the opposite sex friends, then they need to move on.

avatar Riefer September 7, 2011, 4:04 pm

It’s not about trust, it’s about awkwardness. It doesn’t matter how much you trust someone, it’s weird to think about them sleeping with someone when that someone is always hanging around. Like I said above, I really don’t want to know if he’s slept with some of his female friends in the past. If he has then there’s nothing wrong with that, but what’s the point of me knowing about it?

Also, it’s not “hiding”. It’s something that never came up, and probably never needs to. Both of the guy friends that I’m talking about are coworkers, so he never even met them for over a year, since I mostly hang out with them at work now. Am I supposed to introduce them, and then be like, btw I know I’ve been mentioning these guys for a year now, and just so you know, I slept with them both. That would be so awkward and weird to do! Well, for me anyway. Other people might be more open about their past sex lives, but my husband and I only talked about it briefly in the beginning of our relationship, and from then on just focused on our own shared sex life.

avatar lk September 6, 2011, 3:15 pm

I agree with the territorial aspect – even if it’s subconscious, it sounds like the LW was essentially saying, “I was here first.”

If she can, maybe call Holly & say, “Listen, I’m so sorry for bringing that old memory up during a time when your emotions were already on hyper-drive. I wouldn’t have mentioned if I thought it would be in any way threatening – Devon & I have actually no chemistry beyond friendship. I hope we’ll be able to continue our friendship but if not I hope you’ll accept my apology.”

Dear Wendy Wendy September 6, 2011, 3:21 pm

While the LW definitely owes Holly an apology, I’d really caution against her talking to Holly behind Devon’s back. I think she needs to speak to Devon first, apologize to him, and ask his permission to address his new wife directly. She’s already done enough damage. She shouldn’t do or say anything that may potentially reignite an argument between him and holly without first getting Devon’s OK.

avatar lk September 6, 2011, 3:24 pm

Eek, though, it could be scary if Holly hears that LW contacted Devon behind *her* back…………………Please, god, let me never confess anything like this or receive any such confessions.

avatar soandso September 6, 2011, 3:31 pm

I agree with you, lk. I think Holly would hate LW forever if she talked to Devon about this.

avatar TMSC September 6, 2011, 3:48 pm

Yes, I definitely see your point…however, it is her friendship with Devon that is really on the line, here. And there is no mention of how he felt about this, or if Holly explained the “banning” to him. I would call him first and explain what happened, see where he fits in this scenario and what his thoughts are. He knows his future wife best so may be able to figure out the best way of moving forward…

avatar Calle September 6, 2011, 3:46 pm

I think Holly might be less threatened and more angry that she felt LW disrespected her relationship with Devon. If she brought it up to Holly and insinuated that Holly felt threatened, well I could see that making Holly even angrier. I read the letter twice and the choice of words the LW uses are strange…”I don’t think I’m a threat” and describing Holly as intense… Shouldn’t LW say “I’m not a threat?”…It really seems as if the LW is being passive aggressive and has some sort of subconscious desire for Devon.

avatar katiebird September 6, 2011, 3:20 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1YmiT8qKg&feature=related

my first thought after reading this letter….. sorry LW

avatar Bethany September 6, 2011, 3:29 pm

During the first paragraph and a half I was on the LW’s side of this, but then after hearing what she said… I just don’t know. I feel like this is one of those times where you know you did something wrong and you would do anything to take it back, but you can’t. Damage is done and you have to suffer the consequences.

If they come around, they come around, but I think it’s wrong of you to expect them to.

avatar Laurel September 6, 2011, 3:31 pm

Wendy is right on the mark. LW, even if you didn’t intend it to sound this way, you were “marking your territory” when you told the fiancee about your time with Devon. A lot of people have a hard time feeling secure with close male/female friendships, and to tell her that you guys (at one point) WERE interested in seeing if there was more than friendship would be pretty unsettling right before her wedding. TBH, if I had been in her shoes, I wouldn’t have “forbidden” you to talk to him, but I probably would have given you the freeze-out after the wedding.

You and Devon were best friends for a long time. When you got married, that level of friendship intimacy needed to be dialed way back. Even if your husband is fine with the three (or four) of you hanging out a lot, she clearly isn’t, and I don’t blame her. You need to respect their marriage.

avatar lets_be_honest September 6, 2011, 4:02 pm

I totally agree with your advice and Wendy’s. Its tough though. My best friend of over 15 years is a guy who I dated early on in high school. While I have ZERO interest in him now or for the past dozen + years, it bothered my ex a lot that we were so close. Its not fair that just because your best friend is a guy, it makes it uncomfortable for the guy’s girlfriend, but I guess all you can say to that is life isn’t fair. I would probably feel the same was as Holly in this situation.

avatar Calle September 6, 2011, 3:36 pm

Wow…LW, what you did was way, way over the line. To be honest, the timing of LW’s comment (right before the wedding! bachlorette party?) could make Holly think LW has some sort of latent feelings for Devon despite the fact that she is married. LW said she made out with Devon and “tried to have sex.” She never mentioned dating, just a conversation and making out. I could see Devon, if they never dated or slept together, neglecting to mention this. This seems like such a minor thing (we talked about perhaps going out and kissed) and yet LW felt the need to mention it which makes me think LW read more into Devon’s actions. Anyway, I have guy friends and would never do anything like the LW pulled. I thinks she needs to reevaluate herself because this reeks of something deeper than an accidental drunk over share. I mean, come on, “I don’t think I’m a threat…” LW needs to read the letter back to herself.

avatar cmarie September 6, 2011, 3:42 pm

While I agree that it was a stupid move to tell Holly about them, I think it was even dumber for Devon to have not mentioned it…or at least let the LW know that he was keeping it mum. It’s his job to be honest with his partner. I also think banning the husband from seeing the LW is too controlling. Switch the genders and a lot of people would be thinking domestic violence. No one has the right to “ban” you from your friends. I also disagree that the LW was “marking her territory”. It sounds like she was drinking with someone she considered her friend and said mentioned it because she felt comfortable. She didn’t know that Devon hadn’t told Holly and she certainly didn’t know that Holly would react the way she did. We all say stupid things when we’re drunk that we would die before saying when we are sober and saying that the LW did it on purpose is attaching intention that simply isn’t there. It seems like the LW feels bad for bringing it up and I’m sure she would take it back if she could, who would intentionally jeopardize an important friendship that has last for over 10 years just to “mark her territory”?
And why should she have to dial her friendship back because she’s married? Yes, the situation has changed because of her slip-up but getting married doesn’t mean you have to stop being good friends with other people. I have a friend I’ve been best friends with for since I was 4 and even though my partner hates her and would love to “ban” me from seeing her, it’s still my life and nobody has the right to decide who I can and who I can’t be friends with…and a true partner wouldn’t try to dictate your life simply because they’re uncomfortable with the relationship you had prior to meeting.

avatar haggith September 6, 2011, 4:30 pm

well, that’s the problem! devon never had anything with the LW, they only made out, they didn’t even date. i can’t see myself telling my husband the names of all the guys i made out with. but i guess for the LW that was something somewhat more important, otherwise she wouldn’t have brought it up… very close to that girl’s wedding day

avatar cmarie September 6, 2011, 5:14 pm

But if you think Holly is justified in her actions towards the LW because it was so important than Devon should have brought it up. If it warrants such a harsh reaction from Holly than it warrants honesty from Devon.
Once again, I don’t think the LW did it on purpose. It didn’t sound like it was about marking territory, it sounds like she got drunk with a friend and engaged in some girl talk. Granted I do think she should have left out the part where she made out with the girl’s fiance, I just don’t think it’s that huge of a deal. And maybe you should look at it another way: if it was a big deal to the LW, if it meant a lot to her than wouldn’t she have 1. brought it up before SHE married her husband and/or 2. not have mentioned it because she knew it would be a big deal the Holly. If the LW considered it as important as you imply then she probably would have kept the secret rather than risk her friendship to Devon and Holly.
You are assigning intention to an unintentional act, a slip of the tongue loosened by alcohol in the company of a friend.
And besides that, the LW doesn’t specify whether she told her about the making out or if she just mentioned that they had considered being more than friends at one point in their incredibly distant and irrelevant pasts.
I get Holly being hurt that she was kept in the dark and I do agree that it wasn’t the best timing in the world but I don’t think it was done to hurt her. I don’t believe that the LW, married to her own partner for a year, would really carry such a torch for this guy that she would jeopardize the friendship they do have simply to “mark her territory”. I hate that phrase. People are not property and maybe it’s Holly who should learn that. You can’t forbid your husband from seeing his friends no matter how much you don’t like them. If she is so insecure in her relationship that something that happened 10 years ago would bother her so much than maybe she should address that.
I don’t agree that the LW did it on purpose to hurt Holly AND Devon or to let Holly know he was hers first and while I agree that it was an inappropriate thing to say I think Holly is taking it too far.

katie katie September 6, 2011, 8:18 pm

i very much agree with you…. i really, REALLY dont think it is that big of a deal to tell someone’s SO, 10 years after the fact, that you and the guy tried to date once when they first met. granted, you should probably hear that fact from the actual SO, but still. i just dont see this as that big of a deal… i think this says much more about this lady, Holly, being completely threatened by the thought of another woman with her man… which is ridiculous. just as ridiculous as men not wanting to know about the guys women have been with in the past because they “dont like to think about you with other men”… i hate that line. this girl is being very controlling, is obviously very insure in herself and in her relationship, and this little tidbit of info just exposed all those feelings.

if i was devon, i would absolutely not put up with her crap. i think she needs to put on her big girl panties, realize that people have pasts, that -GASP- sometimes you are still friends with people that you try to date, and that he asked her to marry him for a reason…. its really a sad picture of Holly’s life.

and about the timing? atleast she found out now, before the wedding, with atleast an option to call it off if it is that big of a deal, rather then after the vows…

avatar 6napkinburger September 7, 2011, 6:52 pm

Totally disagree with ” think this says much more about this lady, Holly, being completely threatened by the thought of another woman with her man…”

Nothing about this sounded like a blanket “I can’t believe he’s kissed/fucked other people before me” type of thing. She’s upset/humiliated that her fiance/husband and his current and very much around bff had this type of relationship, that she didn’t know about it and feels like an idiot and wonders about all their interactions now, especially seeing as how LW hadn’t forgotten it and felt it so important to discuss days before her wedding (so it feels fresh, not 10 years stale).

I agree that “banning” is unfair and beyond a reasonable reaction — my preferred method would have been “hella guilt” – severe sadness (not even feigned) and uncomfort with every interaction of theirs, leading him to knock it off (especially something as public and “glaring”(if you feel humiliated) as facebook.)

katie katie September 7, 2011, 9:28 pm

i would think that someone who was confident in their choice of marrying someone would not be fazed by a tale of ANYONE being with their fiance 10 years ago. thats the bottom line- if you are unsure, insecure, and not trusting you are going to do what Holly did, period. If you are secure in yourself, if you trust in yourself and in your partner, and in your partnership with them, if you are walking into marriage with your head held high with confidence- a story of 10 years ago, where nothing major even happed, i might add, wont faze you.

what holly did is a very animalistic way of dealing with a threat- getting rid of it. not the human way of talking it out and figuring things out…. just trying to pretend it doesn’t exist, much like the ostrich with his head in the sand.

avatar BreezyAM February 26, 2013, 4:25 pm

I’m so late on this but I think this is more Holly felt like a damn fool because clearly they had been more than friends (and Devon probably reassured her intently that was not the case) and here Devon was trying to set them up as a foursome couple friend thing, and yeah I can see where that would feel weird. And perhaps like being played. Also, sorry, but tacky as fuck to be talking to someone at a bachelorette party and then talk about kissing and making out with their soon to be husband. Trashtastic. I can’t believe people acting like it was just close comfortable girl talk. The time for that would have been months earlier if ever. So not appropriate.

Your spouse should be your primary confidant. If that means dialing back a friendship of either sex, so be it. Doesn’t mean ONLY confidant. It means primary.

avatar Foots September 6, 2011, 3:53 pm

I think the Holly chick is nuts & you should forget them both. If Devon wants to be your friend, he’ll reach out to you. If he is that much of a hen-pecked husband, though, similar issues may arise again, and he will always take her side. I say forget him. Friends come and go. Find one without all the drama that comes along with this one.

avatar Calliopedork September 6, 2011, 3:54 pm

I think everyone is being a little harsh. One I cant stand the idea that.because.you are about to get married everything is about you and you must be handled with kid gloves. The LW made a mistake and said something dumb while drunk. If everyone lost a friend each time that happened we’d all be friendless before we could legally drink. Lw I think you shoul write out an apology and a congrats and send it to both of them detailing how stupid you feel and how you now realize you were inappropriate. And.refrain from telling the probably hilarious story of how you “tried” to have sex in the future

avatar lets_be_honest September 6, 2011, 4:05 pm

I like the idea of a written apology sent to both of them.

avatar haggith September 6, 2011, 4:34 pm

yep, but don’t expect anything. i agree with you, but people react in different ways in such kind of situation. i would be upset because that’s some information i didn’t need to know but i don’t think i’d ban the LW. maybe holly needs some time to cool down about it, maybe she won’t.

avatar AnitaBath September 6, 2011, 4:48 pm

I agree. Everyone is acting like the LW is the crazy idiot and Holly is perfectly within her rights. The LW didn’t know that Holly didn’t know about their past. Yeah, it was stupid of her to bring it up without being 100% sure that Devon had already told Holly, but I think a stupid drunken mistake was all it was. It was tacky of her, and I think Holly would have been completely in her right to be perturbed (and Devon would have been as well), but Holly went way overboard, IMO.

avatar AnitaBath September 6, 2011, 4:51 pm

And, not to mention, it didn’t seem like her saying this to some random girl she barely knew in order to mark her territory. A decade has passed, and she mentioned it to a girl who seemed like a friend.

avatar pho_sho September 6, 2011, 5:13 pm

Totally agree with this! I was shocked at the tone of Wendy’s response. I really don’t see this as a situation where the LW was trying to mark her territory. Instead she was probably trying to tell the story as a “haha look how young and stupid we were” kind of thing. If I were insecure about my partner’s friendship with a close female friend, I would much rather know that they gave it a go, and it was an abysmal failure. It would make me feel a lot more confident about the fact that the friendship was platonic compared to a situation where there was always unexplored sexual tension or one person was in love with the other. The LW probably didn’t think twice about telling this story to Holly since any other intentions towards Devon besides friendship are probably lightyears out of her mind.

avatar 6napkinburger September 7, 2011, 6:55 pm

I’ve never fully gotten over an ex, (I know that doesn’t say a lot about me, but there it is) so it would definitely NOT make me feel better, because if I have lingering feelings/thoughts in similar situations, there’s at least a chance that they do too.

avatar lets_be_honest September 6, 2011, 3:57 pm

Yes, what are your thoughts on this Wendy? I would tend to think Holly would be even more angry if she heard LW was still trying to contact Devon behind her back.

avatar lets_be_honest September 6, 2011, 3:57 pm

That was supposed to be a reply to Wendy & Ik’s comments.

Dear Wendy Wendy September 6, 2011, 4:42 pm

The relationship that the LW is most concerned with patching is the one she has with Devon, therefore, it’s most appropriate that she reach out to him first so that she can get his OK to approach Holly and he can advise how best to do so.

bagge72 bagge72 September 6, 2011, 4:18 pm

LW, I think the reason Holly flipped out so badly, is because most people have a hard time believing that a guy, and a girl can be just friends for so long without having feelings for each other. In the back of this girls mind the whole time all of you were hanging out she was probably thinking that at some point you were in love with her fiance, and once you drunkenly told her what happened, it all became a reality to her. I think Wendy might be a little harsh with you on this one, because I think Holly is overreacting, but she is definitely right with her advice, and with what you should do if you want to try, and reconcile your relationship with them.

avatar silver_dragon_girl September 6, 2011, 4:21 pm

This is a bit of a tough one. You shouldn’t have told her in the first place, but she overreacted. Personally, I think she’ll come around in a few weeks, but possibly not until after the wedding. In the meantime, I’d send her an apology email, as she probably wouldn’t answer your phone calls or appreciate being pounced upon in a surprise visit.

I never used to care about my boyfriends’ female friends, ex-girlfriends, or anything…until my ex cheated on me with his “good friend” and then went back to her after we broke up. I think that since she reacted so strongly, it’s possible that she’s experienced something like this in the past, so she’s a little paranoid about it now.

Definitely agree with the poster above who said NOT to go behind Holly’s back to talk to Devon about it. Seriously, this is a “between the girls” matter until Holly chooses to bring Devon into it. She’s probably going to want to hear his side of things, and if she has any reason to think you “tipped him off” about it so you could “get your story straight” it’s only going to make things worse.

So I say: apology/explanatory email, then back off until she comes around. I’m betting she will, once she has a little time to process.

avatar Foots September 6, 2011, 4:33 pm

I still say the heck with them both. They must not value your friendship very much not to talk this matter over with you like rational adults. And why is Devon staying silent while she de-friends & disrespects you, his longtime friend?? Coward.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 7:27 pm

^^ This. WTF is Devon doing? What a wuss. If she can ban one of your best friends over something so minor, I give the marriage a year, depending on how much backbone Devon has. Men do a horrible job of setting up boundaries of their own, because they are too busy trying to navigate the web women put down around themselves. Devon had better set this girl straight or she will not have any respect for him, and learn to hate his guts. If the LW is as good a friend and the letter states, he should have been prepared to go to the mat. Men do not change friends, like they do their underwear.

I had a similiar situation. My buddy married a woman who really doesnt like me much. But she is very jealous of my friends time, and none of her reasons are anything about character etc. got so bad I just told my buddy I am sick of walking on eggshells, and I just wont ever go back over to his house again. That got him moving, and he laid down some boundaries. Done deal. She learned she cant push past a certain line, and has accepted that her husbands friend is just an asshole, but not a bad guy. And we all moved on.

Devon has got to handle this situation, and I hate to admit it because she came down so over the top on the LW, but wendy is right, the ball is in Devons court. But some long elaborate mea culpa is not called for. Since half the friendship we are discussing includes a man, a quick apology and a punch on the controlling freaks padded shoulder is enough.

avatar Fancy Pants September 6, 2011, 9:05 pm

Remember though, we’re only hearing the LW’s side. Maybe Holly isn’t actually making Devon cut the LW off. Maybe after Holly’s initial reaction, Devon saw the LW for what she really was – a creepy shit disturber. I have a short term ex that I’m still friends with. My fiance knows about our past. That said, if he started talking to my fiance about our past, my fiance’s reaction really wouldn’t matter too much – I’d be done with my friend. I’d see that as a possible attempt to undermine my relationship and a weird creepy fixation on what we used to be. Perhaps Devon found the LW’s disclosure really really weird. Because it was.

avatar jane September 6, 2011, 11:52 pm

Good point Fancy Pants. How do we know that Holly “banned” the LW from talking to Devon?? Those are the words the LW used to describe the situation. Listen, I do understand that people say stupid things when they’re drunk, and it sucks that something the LW said in passing has caused such a huge rift in the friendship. But the fact of the matter is that the LW’s comment made Holly feel uncomfortable. Maybe Devon saw how hurt Holly was, and HE made the choice to cut off ties with the LW?

avatar LTC039 September 6, 2011, 4:39 pm

I’ve been in a situation where I’ve hooked up (made out) a few times with this guy, then he got back together with his gf months later, & me & his gf are now good friends, & I’ve NEVER brought it up to her. A) I didn’t know her at the time & B) I have no reason to tell her, she was with someone else at that time & he was single. It’s his issue if he wanted to tell her, but it will never come out of my mouth. That’s just tacky!
You should’ve really held your tonuge, especially since they are getting married! That wasn’t cool. Now, you just have to accept it. There isn’t much you can do. As Wendy said, for your sake, hopefully Holly will get over this, MAYBE reach out to her when time has passed, but until then, recognize your mistake & learn from it.

avatar napoleon1066 September 6, 2011, 4:52 pm

I hate the use of the phrase “let it slip” in this letter, like she had said it accidentally.

LW trips over sidewalk, and while lying on the ground, says “By the way… me and that guy you’re marrying next week… we once got naked. Wait wait… it’s okay… it didn’t mean anything! I don’t understand why you’re so upset! Oh, and I’m bleeding.”

avatar AKchic September 6, 2011, 5:14 pm

Boy, you swallowed both feet to the knees there.

By drunkenly announcing to her that you and her soon-to-be husband had tried to be more than friends, had seen each other naked and kissed and fooled around a bit (even if you didn’t actually have sex, but TRIED, which means there was some D&P action somewhere in there), so soon to the wedding – it makes any woman, sober or not, wonder at WHY the hell you’d say something like that at such a time. To guiltily clear the air? To sabotage the wedding? Unrequited feelings for the groom (or bride)? A soon-to-be announced segue into asking for a foursome together with the bride, groom, you and YOUR husband?
It was hinky to begin with. Downright creepy if someone were to analyze it in any kind of detail (especially not sober).

Yeah, it was a little overboard to ban you from ever speaking to your former friend; but, she could be a very jealous person. Or, you could have offended the both of them highly and the guy took the deceitful way out and blamed the new bride. Either way, a huge apology is owed to this couple for your drunken faux pas. Imbibe heavily you should not :P

avatar silver_dragon_girl September 6, 2011, 5:46 pm

I’m afraid to ask, but…D&P?

avatar Amber September 6, 2011, 5:50 pm

think about it.

Dear Wendy Wendy September 6, 2011, 6:08 pm

I’ve never heard of it either, but I’m guessing the letters that follow the initials are something along the lines of “ick” and “ussy.” Just a guess.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 6:10 pm

That’s what I’m thinking… At any rate, it gives a much more interesting meaning to all the nerdy guys that now claim to be totally “over” their D&D days…

Dear Wendy Wendy September 6, 2011, 6:13 pm

Ha ha.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 7:37 pm

Oh ya pile on us DnD nerds, so brave. What is it with women and guys playing DnD? My buddies I play with all do it on the down low. One is a 4th degree black belt in something I cant pronounce, one runs ironman competitions and drives a harley, and not many would look at my house, cars and electrinics collection and think NERD. But when the ladies I date see our stuff on my dining room table they are shocked. and my friends the big HE MEN that they are, all try to keep it hushed up. Even from the pizza guy, if she happens to be a woman that night.

I dont get it. Wtf is the big hairy deal?

avatar Maracuya September 6, 2011, 8:32 pm

I’m pretty sure that was a throwaway joke. Don’t get too riled up over it. =P I’ve played D&D and it’s fun. Unlike some people, it wouldn’t be a negative if my man was a championship-winning Magic player, either. (For the record, he plays both.)

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 8:42 pm

Um, yeah, it was just a silly one liner. Trust me, Bittergaymarks who STILL collect Star Wars toys soooooo can’t afford to be tossing too many stones at guys who like Dungeons & Dragons….

avatar Fancy Pants September 6, 2011, 8:39 pm

I’m sure your overly defensive anger towards a simple joke really turns the ladies on.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 8:49 pm

If I cant ask why its such a big deal to some women, here on this site, then where?

And not sure why you think I am angry. The over the top stuff was tongue in cheek, if I was truely defensive, I would not find womens reactions to playing DnD so interesting. In a way they usually find me less …..intimidating if thats the right word, once they see our stuff all over my dining room table. I am still interested in why women pile on the derision about this, if men did that about quilting or knitting you all would start pulling knives.

avatar GingerLaine September 7, 2011, 1:08 pm

I’ll play along. Why, you ask? Because many people know others involved in D&D, Magic, MMORPGs, LARP, etc who have poor social skills. Yes, it is a stereotype.

Now, most people are open-minded enough to at least get to know you a bit before they decide you don’t have social skills. And if they aren’t, then you don’t want to date them anyway.

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m not saying it’s fair, but many women will walk in, see your games, and their first thought will be something along the lines of “Oh, Jesus. Does he snort when he laughs too?” You know, just like how guys stereotype the “sorority girl look”, or that girls who play softball are lesbians, or that a girl with a lot of sexual experience is a slut, or any number of social stereotypes.

Hey, I play Diablo and have a level 91 Amazon. That’s not exactly public knowledge because I don’t want to be defined by that or have people get the wrong impression about me before they know the REAL me. Get over yourself. If you don’t want women to have that immediate reaction, you could maybe not bring a woman to your home until she’s gotten a chance to know you & not be put off by that. Or at least not have all of it out on the table. There. Problem solved.

avatar Adaas September 8, 2011, 1:11 am

Quilting or knitting? Seriously?
Ah, man. Get with the times.

avatar SpyGlassez September 7, 2011, 7:24 pm

Now you’re doing the same thing you accuse them of doing – piling on the opposite gender and putting them down for their choices. My parents were gamers when I was little – because of my MOM – and my home is crowded with D&D books and figurines and dice because my BF is a gamer. Not all women are “down” on gamers, just like not all gamers are “nerds.” My boyfriend certainly doesn’t look the part.

avatar iseeshiny September 7, 2011, 9:55 pm

Ha. D&D on the down low…

avatar silver_dragon_girl September 6, 2011, 7:30 pm

Ahh, ok, got it. Wow, I’m slow today. I blame the long weekend.

Adding “D&P” to my euphemism repertoire now…:D

landygirl Landygirl September 6, 2011, 7:15 pm

Drumstick and Pothole.

avatar jubietta September 6, 2011, 7:46 pm

Dampness & Penetration?

avatar Rachelgrace53 September 6, 2011, 9:24 pm

I wish there was a way for me to post the face I involuntarily made when I read this. Ick.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 11:14 pm

Im a guy, and find myself agreeing with you on the whole ick thing. I make no claim to being less gross then they hairyest caveman, but D&P? And the silver girl is going to add that to her repertoire? No people, just no.

avatar Nick September 7, 2011, 11:13 am

Loved the florid prose of this post of yours, AKchic. Brava.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 5:46 pm

Whoa, boy! Time to move on, sweetie. Time to move on. Sorry, LW, but you alone completely caused this. You alone brought this onto yourself because of your big babbling mouth. What we have here is an ideal illustration of one of those problems that could so easily have been avoided had the the LW simply told herself the following sage advice:

JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP! SERIOUSLY…JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Not only was there NO reason for the bride to be to know ANY of this, but your timing couldn’t have possibly been worse. Yikes! Double yikes! You blew. Big time.

Frankly, I don’t see how this can be fixed. I just don’t.

PS — There are, uh, very few people I have both seen naked and kissed on New Years Eve that I did NOT at some point view romantically. I’m a just saying…

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 7:43 pm

bah my favorite commenter, had to give you a purple on this one dude. It was a good run, but you have fallen off your perch. I still dont see why this is some great sin, every man-woman friendship started out with at least one of them wondering about a romantic tie. This could not possibly have been a shock to the woman, or she is a fool.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 8:32 pm

No, no, no. You miss my point. Hey, I don’t think this SHOULD be some great big sin either. And frankly, I could and would TOTALLY get past this if I were Holly… The problem is — I am NOT Holly. That is why the LW is screwed and should have kept her big mouth shut! If there is one thing I have learned over the years it’s that you really can’t ever count on other people to behave calmly or rationally… Because all too often, they simply don’t.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 8:40 pm

And this goes back to the point several others have made about keeping her mouth shut. There is no way in hell this would have stayed a secret forever. NO WAY. The LW husband or Devon would have said something offhand at some point, then all the harpies would be screaming at the LW that she shoudl have been up front about it, and just trusted in talking like adults blah yada yada.

Please. These things always come out eventually. Whats truely sad is the best way to approach them again could have been asking them to read this thread. But Wendy went over the top, and this holly woman would use her post as all the justification she needs, and blow the rest of us off.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 8:50 pm

It’s still not HER place to tell the Holly though… It’s Devon’s. The fact that Devon hadn’t ever told his fiance’ only further proves that the LW was WRONG to tell her. Hey, Devon probably knew all too well that Holly would totally freak out! [And you know what? It so DOESN'T all need to come out. Not if it's truly in the past and truly no big deal...] Now, none of this makes the Holly’s reaction deserving of praise. Indeed, she’s acting very immature I must say… But THAT the reality of who she is! Holly isn’t going to magically change! All too often commenters on here seem to be living in some pie-in-the-sky world where everybody acts just as they should in a perfectly peachy world. Newsflash! The world isn’t perfect. And it’s people even less so…

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 9:00 pm

Egads, sorry about all the weird “the Holly” typos! See, I was using “the fiance’ ‘” too much decided to replace that word with the name, but then I goofed as I sloppily did it far too quickly… My apologies.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 9:24 pm

agreed its Devons issue, the big wienie, and you are right about people seeing this as pie in the sky, wouldnt that be sweet.

But I still say because it was “no big deal”, it would have slipped.

Best approach in these situations is the one I always employ. The LW should send an email to both of them asking them WTF?!!?
If it is so in the past and no big deal, why this reaction. And announce that no matter what she is coming to her friends wedding, and going to keep being his friend, because dammit thats the kind of friend I am, and until I hear I am no longer welcome by my firend, thats the way it will always be, live with it.

Do that and find out real fast one way or the other how much your friendship is valued.

avatar AnitaBath September 6, 2011, 9:28 pm

No, please, do not use that tactic.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 10:26 pm

Heh. She might not be able to pull it off like I can. Being able to plausibly have no clue about certain courtesies allows you to bluff your way past some situations.

katie katie September 6, 2011, 10:32 pm

it would yeild results… cant argue with that.

avatar Nina September 6, 2011, 5:59 pm

I agree. Seriously, I don’t understand all the people who are defending the LW. The whole timing of the thing is suspect-who the hell does something like that right before a wedding! LW also didn’t date or have sex with the guy-If she had, then I agree Devon should have told his bride to be. LW seems like one of those girls who has no ideas of boundaries or that she has to believe that every guy at one point has considered her seriously as a sexual partner. Methinks she doth protest too much.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 6:08 pm

People often seem to slavishly defend Letter Writers on here… Seriously. I, too, am often simply amazed and very confused by it..

landygirl Landygirl September 6, 2011, 7:12 pm

Holly?

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 7:22 pm

And once again, the voices of logic AND reason are massively thumbed down…

landygirl landygirl September 6, 2011, 9:02 pm

Banning a friend from your future spouse’s life for such a banal act is logical or reasonable. I think what the LW did was thoughtless and stupid but I think what Holly did was drastic and off balance.

avatar HmC September 6, 2011, 6:27 pm

Gotta respectfully disagree with the overall tone of Wendy’s advice here.

[LW's comment to Holly was] “the last thing any woman needs in the weeks and days leading up to her wedding — a hyper-charged anxious, emotional and stressful time”… “It was Holly and Devon’s moment. It was their time.”

Good God, from what one would glean of weddings from this site, they are just horrible, costly enterprises rife with rigid social rules that all essentially boil down to, the bride is the fucking center of the universe. Honestly, I have joked about this before, but reading some of the comments regarding wedding etiquette makes me want to never plan one of my own, nor attend anyone else’s for the rest of my life. Love and marriage are their own reward, why even bother with a wedding if it’s just some drama fest that gets you and the people you’re supposed to care about the most all “hyper-charged anxious, emotional and stress[ed]“? Sounds just awful, and ironically the antithesis of what love and marriage are supposed to be about.

Ok sorry, wedding rant over. Moving on…

So yeah, I don’t think that the faux pas of accidentally letting something slip is hugely exacerbated simply because Holly happens to be planning a wedding. Or it shouldn’t be, to a sane bride.

Personally, I believe in openness in relationships- especially with info. that is likely to come out. This is because I wouldn’t want my significant other feel like I had been covering something up. However, not everyone is like me, and I think that it was definitely Devon’s prerogative to not tell Holly about it if he didn’t want to. And it was definitely not LW’s place to tell her, not at all.

But you can’t rewind time, LW said what she said. If I were Holly, I think I could move past it with a sincere apology. And if I was mad at anyone, it would be more focused at Devon for not just admitting that there had been a slight history- they never even dated or had sex, and mature adults understand that everyone has a history. I’d feel awkward that my fiance had kept something like that from me, as if him and his girl friend were in on some big secret that I wasn’t. But again, I don’t expect everyone to see things like I do and if Holly wants to remain butt-hurt at the LW then that’s her prerogative.

Honestly, if she’s that mad about it, and focuses all her anger on the LW, there’s not much that can be done here. I agree with Wendy that all the LW can really do is offer a sincere apology and wait it out. Really though, if I were the LW, I don’t know that I’d want to be so close to someone that would react so dramatically to this, and someone that I consider to be so “intense.” If Holly can’t let it go and return to being comfortable around the LW, then she can’t. Not everyone is meant to be friends.

avatar Blitzen September 7, 2011, 1:41 am

Thank you, this. I had the same thoughts swirling randomly in my head.

landygirl Landygirl September 6, 2011, 6:30 pm

Yes, the LW said something inappropriate but I think Holly is a few jacks short of a full game. I think the LW should move on since Devon is allowing Holly to dictate his actions. I don’t forsee happiness if Holly is so insecure about her place in Devon’s life and he avoids telling her things to avoid her overblown reaction. That and the LW doesn’t mention that he has tried to contact her after the fact.

Sorry LW, next time think twice, you may be thankful you did.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 6:35 pm

Or maybe Devon is simply genuinely pissed that the LW foolishly, stupidly, and NEEDLESSLY opened this HUGE can of worm right before the wedding….

landygirl Landygirl September 6, 2011, 7:06 pm

I don’t find this to be that big of a deal. My current SO and my ex get along splendidly because my current SO knows that I am with him. It isn’t like the LW and Devon had a sordid affair or had a child together, they messed around. If Holly can’t deal with that, then it’s her issue.

Yes, the LW blew it by opening her mouth but that isn’t unforgiveable. Maybe Devon should have been more open with Holly in the first place. In any case, what’s done is done and the LW should move on from both of them.

katie katie September 6, 2011, 8:27 pm

AND it happened 10 freaking years ago!! it is so, so, soooooo insignificant.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 6, 2011, 9:03 pm

Yeah, but NEITHER of you is Holly, either… If Devon was engaged to either of you, he probably wouldn’t care. But instead he dealing with Holly who clearly not only does care, but does think its significant….

landygirl landygirl September 6, 2011, 10:59 pm

Thank gawd I’m not Holly.

Skyblossom Skyblossom September 6, 2011, 8:03 pm

I was thinking the same thing. What kind of friend blabs like this and causes you trouble just before your wedding. I assume she’s not hearing from Devon because he doesn’t want anything to do with her because he could contact her if he wished. There is no fiance in the world who can stop all contact.

landygirl landygirl September 6, 2011, 9:06 pm

I read a lot of advice columns and one thing I’ve learned is that you can turn people against others pretty easily. Devon is probably avoiding her because he’s irked and because he’s afraid of pissing Holly off more.

avatar lets_be_honest September 7, 2011, 9:35 am

At long last, I AGREE bgm!

avatar Foots September 6, 2011, 7:30 pm

Can’t wait to read the update for this one!

avatar Painted_lady September 6, 2011, 7:41 pm

Here’s the thing: what sane, rational adult “bans” another sane, rational adult from being friends with a person? I don’t care if you’re planning a wedding or the coronation of the next Queen of England, that is SERIOUSLY out of line.

Yes, LW, your mouth is too big. I think you know that, but have you thought about why? Sometimes we make comments that go over like lead balloons (“Hey Holly, remember when Devon and Mr. LW sang Journey at karaoke? HAHA! Yeah, and that time where Devon and I tried to have sex in college? Right…? Uh, Holly..?”), and sometimes we say things that the meaner, pettier, uglier parts of ourselves we never want to admit are there can take full responsibility for (“Oh my God, LW, Devon and I have the BEST. SEX. EVER.” “Really? Because he was a massive failure the time we tried to have sex.”). Only you know which one this was. And I don’t think there’s a person commenting who couldn’t relate to either possibility. I’ve made a complete fool of myself when I thought I was being funny, and I’ve also made some really snide digs at people because I was insecure and needed to bring them down.

The thing is, Holly seems incredibly controlling. I can’t help but think if this situation were reversed and it was a girl writing in that her fiancé had *forbidden* her from seeing a best friend of 10 years because he blabbed that they’d had one awkward attempt at sex, we’d all go nuts at what a controlling jerk the fiancé was. If it were Holly writing in, we’d say that Devon’s friend seems like a troublemaker but that banning anyone from his life is not okay. You should absolutely write them both – that way they both know your side of the story and they both know your intentions in contacting them both are good. You’re worried about preserving your friendship with Devon, and Holly seems as, um, intense, as you said, but they’re a package deal now.

As someone with good male friends, it sucks to watch these friends move out of your life when they get serious relationships. I am in a perfectly happy relationship with a guy I love – I say that not with the assumption that these guys I used to be friends with all secretly love me, but to express that I am not after anything (and I assume that’s why you said it). I can never tell if it’s because the women they fall in love with don’t trust me, don’t trust their partner, or if maybe the partner felt or assumed more of an attraction than I ever did. It’s normal for many women to treat female friends of their partner’s who have been around longer with hostility for some reason, and, yeah, you exacerbated that with someone who sounds incredibly insecure. So there’s a chance that you may have to resign yourself to being Devon’s former friend from now on.

avatar Painted_lady September 6, 2011, 7:45 pm

Sorry, *I’m in a relationship with a guy I love, and there are goodguy friends whose wives and girlfriends still don’t seem to care for me.

avatar Rachelgrace53 September 6, 2011, 9:47 pm

“I don’t care if you’re planning a wedding or the coronation of the next Queen of England, that is SERIOUSLY out of line.” YES. Just yes.

I definitely relate to/agree with your comment the most. I’m a “guy’s girl” and have been through this many, MANY times. Guys love being friends with me because I can kick their asses at poker, drink them under the table, and they don’t have to tread lightly around me like they have to with their oh-so-fragile women.

My very closest friend during college barely speaks to me now because his wife likes their time spent with just the two of them plus her best friend and sometimes he gets to have his best guy friend there (only because he was her friend first).
I don’t know what’s wrong with women that makes them so insecure and controlling just because another female is in their man’s life. But since all (but two) of my best friends have been male, I guess I’ll have to deal with the Hollys of the world forever.

Yes, the LW made a big mistake, especially with the timing of it. However, what she did isn’t nearly as awful as what Holly is doing. All the LW did was inappropriately share information–true information that should have been completely irrelevant, as it was so long ago. No, it can’t be untold, but I’d think most rational human beings that had witnessed months of a completely platonic friendship between LW and Devon wouldn’t flip their shit the way Holly did. If someone did this to me, yeah it would be awkward, but I’d realize that it was FOREVER AGO and factor in that the LW was drunk and GET OVER IT!

katie katie September 6, 2011, 9:51 pm

this- this is exactly it!!

avatar jane September 7, 2011, 12:00 am

I don’t think it has anything to do with gender. Why all the hate towards other women? (ie: My guy friend’s girlfriends/wives hate me, If a male LW wrote in, would it be different, etc?) I think to place all this emphasis on gender is misguided. It’s not a gender thing. It’s a relationships thing. Yes, it’d be awesome if we could all get along with our current SO’s exes, etc. But in the real world, people get jealous, people feel threatened, people feel uncomfortable, etc. It really sucks for the LW that her friendship with Devon might be ruined bc of a stupid comment she made, but I think from Devon/Holly’s standpoint, they’re doing the right thing as a couple… They’re privileging their relationship/marriage over their friendship with the LW.

avatar Painted_lady September 7, 2011, 12:46 am

You’re right. In my experience, it’s women who have a problem with their SO’s female friends, but I know of plenty of men who don’t want their SOs having male friends either. I’ve never had to deal with that directly because I don’t tolerate that sort of controlling behavior from men I date (actually, I just mainly date men who are secure in that sense). But there are a lot of people, male or female, who allow their SOs to dictate who they’re friends with. Painted_dude has one female friend who brings out all my personal insecurities, and I’m sure there are a couple of friends of mine who do the same for him, but neither of us would dream of forbidding that friendship because it wouldn’t work, we trust the other, and also, it just isn’t right to treat someone you love like that. I think both greater trust and firmer boundaries for what people will and won’t tolerate in romantic relationships might help a lot of people – male and female – lead healthier romantic lives.

avatar ktfran September 7, 2011, 5:43 pm

I wish I could thumbs this up a thousand times. You have what I some day want out of my relationship.

One’s significant other is chosen for a reason. If it’s a good relationship, no past flame, friend (both same and opposite sex), or family member can threaten that.

bagge72 bagge72 September 7, 2011, 10:27 am

My guess is your attractive too, and they probably started out wanting to be more than just friends with you, and that is the problem. I see a lot of girls that are really attractive cool girls, that are fun to hangout with, but none of the guys I know started to hangout with them, because they can drink them under the table, or play poker, they have guy friends for that. They started hanging out with them because they wanted to see them naked. Which is why it is so easy for a guy to drop that friend when they find the girl they love, because they can just go right back to hanging out with their guy friends that bring the same thing to the table, and they don’t think about naked.

katie katie September 7, 2011, 9:21 pm

i refuse to believe that this is true of all men… it would shatter my confidence in men and in the human race in general.

avatar Rachelgrace53 September 7, 2011, 11:28 pm

Thank you, Katie. My thoughts exactly. I have my own reasons for knowing that’s not why most of my friendships with guys started. A couple, sure. But none of them have continued for that reason, because I don’t stick around people that are shallow and I know when someone doesn’t value me for anything but my looks.
Not all men want to only have guys friends who just want to get drunk and talk about sports. They like having me as a friend because we have things in common and they can actually talk to me as well as have fun with me. And plenty of my close friendships with men have continued even when they are in serious relationships, but only if they are with confident women and/or have the balls to stand up to their women and still be their own person. THAT is the difference.

katie katie September 8, 2011, 12:35 am

guys always are saying that they aren’t the dogs that we make them out to be in chick flicks and around bottles of wine with the girls…. if this is true, then really we have been right the whole time and men really are dogs. or, monkeys, more like it. just keeping the company for a CHANCE at some ass. i just refuse to believe it and I choose to believe the scientists that tell us that yes, in fact, human men have evolved beyond monkeys.

if i found this to be true of my male friends, i would be so dissapointed, like to the core of my heart.

avatar Rachelgrace53 September 7, 2011, 11:29 pm

Thank you, Katie. My thoughts exactly. I have my own reasons for knowing that’s not why most of my friendships with guys started. A couple, sure. But none of them have continued for that reason, because I don’t stick around people that are shallow and I know when someone doesn’t value me for anything but my looks.
Not all men want to only have guys friends who just want to get drunk and talk about sports. They like having me as a friend because we have things in common and they can actually talk to me as well as have fun with me. And plenty of my close friendships with men have continued even when they are in serious relationships, but only if they are with confident women and/or have the balls to stand up to their women and still be their own person. THAT is the difference.

avatar jubietta September 6, 2011, 7:42 pm

There are two very old-fashioned ideas in this mix that bother me greatly. One is the concept of one person controlling another. Holly does not control Devon. Holly has feelings, makes statments, sets boundaries and Devon makes his own choices based on that information. If he’s choosing his new wife over his old friend, that’s his choice…no matter how you gift wrap it to make it look prettier. Sure, he’s got two ugly options to pick from, but that’s what happens when alcohol and secrets collide — your basic no-win situation.
The other is Wendy’s assertion that nobody should rain on a bride’s parade. Since when does becoming a bride give anyone a license for bad behavior? Screw that, I say. Sure, it’s okay to give someone a pass for having a bad day, that’s humanity and grace. But offering someone an open-ended hall pass on bitchiness and reality just because they got stressed out/in over their heads planning an event of their own choosing, that reeks of double-standards. I say, grow up.
LW, I’m sorry your friendship blew-up after an unintentional conversation. It is devastating to lose a friend. Give yourself the room to grieve the loss, even if you choose to try and change the outcome, because the only control you’ve got over this situation is over yourself. Cry, scream, eat cookie dough, learn not to drink-and-divulge, and then move on. If Devon wants you back, he knows where to find you.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 7:59 pm

HAH. For all you ladies and bitter gay dudes, who freaked out on the LW, better read this ladies post twice. I cant help but think that many of these women are one or two controlling episodes away from their laid back husbands blowing up in their faces. These things add up over time with anyone.

avatar Laurel September 7, 2011, 1:20 pm

You seem really hateful.

avatar Fancy Pants September 6, 2011, 8:52 pm

I can agree with your points, but also I think if we heard Devon’s side of the story it might be very similar to something you’d agree with, if that makes sense. I could be Devon in my own life.

I had a short term boyfriend who I did have a sexual relationship with. The relationship ended, but we have remained very close friends for years afterward. I am now engaged to a man I’ve been with for 4 years – he’s the love of my life. The difference between my story and Devon’s would be that my Fiance is well aware of my history with my friend – nothing graphic, just the bare bones ‘We used to be together, and now we’re just friends. It’s been good and over for years.’

My fiance knows my friend, though they are not as entrenched in each other’s social circles as the LW and Holly. That said, I would feel extremely uncomfortable with my friend if he suddenly started talking about our past relationship with my fiance. To the point where I myself would opt to cut him out of my life – no controlling partner needed, I myself would just see that as a wacky/creepy thing to bring up. And even more compounded due to the wedding coming up – not in a “I’m the bride and it’s my day!” way, but in a “Is he going to confront me and try to convince me not to go through with the wedding? Did he suddenly change his mind about us? What the fuck? This is too weird. Now I feel creeped out about our entire friendship.” way that the ticking clock before a trip down the aisle makes more dramatic.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense.

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 9:29 pm

yes but you told him about it, up front. So tell your friend that you did, and he wont ever say a damn thing. You got no issue to sweat. you handled it.

avatar Meag September 6, 2011, 10:27 pm

You seem kinda harsh! Yes, Holly and other brides usually choose to plan a wedding, which can become a source of stress. I agree that shouldn’t give them an open-ended hall pass for bitchy behavior; however, I do think that they should be afforded some sympathy/compassion when it’s deserved. Like having your fiancee’s bff drunkenly tell you about the time they almost fucked and then never getting an apology when it’s obvious your feelings have been hurt. (Nowhere does the LW say that she ever apologized!)

Besides many people put themselves in their own stress-inducing situations. Do you hold it against a student for snapping at you when you know their stressed from cramming for exams? Would you be mad at a friend for overreacting when you know she’s stressed about a job situation? Be cross at a bride to be b/c you feel that her stress level was brought on by herself reeks of double-standards.

avatar cmarie September 7, 2011, 12:22 pm

It’s hard to apologize when you’re being actively ignored and “banned” from your friend’s life…Besides, it seems like a lot of people are telling her to just leave her alone because she killed Holly’s unicorn.
Yes, actually, I don’t tolerate people snapping at me because they’re stressed about stuff. Yes, graduate school is hard but it’s not my fault your professor hates you. I completely get Holly being hurt and feeling uncomfortable but she’s taking it too far and if it is Devon doing the banning then maybe it is best the LW moves on because who wants to be friends with such a fair weather fellow.

katie katie September 6, 2011, 8:48 pm

i have to say this is one time that I dont agree with wendy, like at all…

i think this is pretty ridiculous… for many reasons.

first, it is Devon’s responsibility to divulge info about people that he has a past with… a simple, “this is my friend, yea we actually tried to date when we first met in college, 10 LONG years ago, but it didnt work. we are awesome as friends though!” now, on the flip side of that, why in the WORLD would you tell someone about a potential encounter, 10 VERY LONG years ago in college, that didnt end up having sex or being in an actual relationship??? that kind of info is usually forgotten, so i cant really slight the boyfriend for doing anything wrong.

the LW- you did seem to have bad timing with this, i get that. maybe YOU shouldn’t have been the one to tell her, but i am one for being honest and open, and so I see it as a positive thing that she knows now. if its that big of a deal for her, she can still call off the wedding, yea? better to find out before the marriage then after. yes, this is an awkward thing, but i dont think, at all, it warranted the response you got.

as for Holly, this is where I think all the problems and the blame are. first of all, only crazy people “ban” their SO’s from seeing people. particularly someone that you have been close friends with for 10 years. and i dont care how close it is to a wedding, weddings DO NOT give ANYONE the right to be a bitch. at all. and then, why is she so insecure in her own place in life that she feels like she needs to cut the LW out of her fiance’s life? AND, how is that going to make anything better, anyway? the act still happened. she still didn’t know for however long, and she still found out when she did. cutting this lady out of her life doesn’t change reality- it just gives her the illusion that everything is ok again. and then again, why oh WHY cannot women fathom the idea of their SO with other women and being able to be friends with other women? i guess i must be very secure in myself/relationships or something, because i have never had these feelings about my boyfriends. i have never thought twice about my boyfriends being friends with ANY other women- previous flings or not. and i would never ban my boyfriend from seeing someone, unless they had commited murder or something. i think this lady is crazy. thats your problem, LW, your friend’s fiance is crazy.

i have no idea how to try to fix this, probably just lots of talking and apoligizing. but no amount of that can fix crazy, sorry.

avatar Painted_lady September 7, 2011, 12:10 am

“why is she so insecure in her own place in life that she feels like she needs to cut the LW out of her fiance’s life? AND, how is that going to make anything better, anyway? the act still happened.”

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. The LW can’t un-say what she said, as much as she obviously wants to. Holly can’t un-know it. Why, then, does she need to cut the LW out? It’s not like the LW was the only one involved. They can’t go back in time and not almost have sex. Maybe there are other issues at play – ones that the LW knows nothing about, either fidelity with Devon, or Devon feels like he’s moved past the friendship, or god knows what – but just based on what she’s telling us, it sounds like a woman with control issues. Maybe they’re temporary, wedding-related and such, and after the wedding she can mend the fences, but if not, it looks like Devon’s picked a woman who’s not going to allow other women in his life, even if it’s his past life.

katie katie September 7, 2011, 3:30 am

exactly! the LW and devon have since moved on from what happened… probably many, many years ago. i guess it would be unfair for anyone to expect Holly to move on so quickly, maybe it will happen after the wedding like you said, but if this isnt something she will be willing to get over, i dont see this as a very happy marriage…. just a bunch of control and resentment.

avatar Temperance September 8, 2011, 11:10 am

I have requested that my SO stay far, far away from this former friend of mine who used me to get closer to some of my male friends, played those two against each other … all while cheating on her boyfriend, who is an awesome guy.

I don’t think I’m crazy or insecure; this girl is Trouble, she disrespects relationships, and she gets a thrill out of being an adulteress and destroying other people’s relationships.

avatar cmarie September 8, 2011, 6:05 pm

the difference is she’s YOUR friend, not his. He has no reason to be around her unless it’s with you.

avatar Caroline September 6, 2011, 8:50 pm

How does the LW know that Holly banned Devon from talking to her? Seriously. The above poster who said Devon probably thought nothing of the incident and yet LW remembers and brings it up when a wedding is being planned…Yeah, I find that hinky….Defn. would make me think, if I was Devon, that LW may have some unrequited feelings for me and that I better distance myself. Just got some bad ju ju, in the words of Layfayette, from the LW.

avatar Fancy Pants September 7, 2011, 12:51 pm

THIS! I would be so weirded out if I were Devon, I’d probably drop a friend who did that too.

mandalee mandalee September 6, 2011, 9:16 pm

LW, I actually had an encounter with a girl like you. Thank god, it wasn’t right before my wedding, but same scenario with one major difference, I knew of their history together (one random hookup and her begging to bang him and her current boyfriend at the same time, very classy, didn’t work in favor though) However, that didn’t stop her from pulling me aside one night at the bar and going on and on about their “long history together” and “how she knew just what to do to please if I needed it”. This girl also was happily coupled up but felt the need to word vomit her way into my shit list.

Maybe Holly isn’t that upset about your lame and limited history, maybe she doesn’t want to associated with someone who needs to insert random things into conversation for no better reason than to stir something up. Did Holly overreact? Yeah. But really, when is there ever a good time to talk to anyone about your sexual history with their partner? Some “best friend”. Im sure Devon is pissed at you for causing all this unneeded childish drama before his wedding. For someone who claims to cherish this friendship, did you really give a secondthought about how this would play out for him?

avatar AnitaBath September 6, 2011, 9:26 pm

Really, the only similarity I see between the two of you is that there was a small, insignificant history that happened a long time ago. It didn’t come across to me that the LW was some vengeful, delusional girl bound on getting on Holly’s shit list and making her miserable. Or that she chased after Devon despite being happily coupled.

And, no, she probably didn’t give it a second thought, because she was drunk and being stupid.

It’s not like this girl is writing in and being like, “I DID NOTHING WRONG. WHY AREN’T THEY MY FRIENDS!? THEY’RE SOOOOOOO MEEEEAAAAAAAN.”

avatar Jimbo September 6, 2011, 9:36 pm

Wait your SO told you about it, cool. But Devon, the wienie, appears to not have mentioned it, yet you give him a pass and unload on the LW.

She didnt make a big deal about it, at least from what we can see. So its not comparable. Maybe this Holly woman is just angry she was hearing about it from the LW instead of Devon the wienie.

mandalee mandalee September 6, 2011, 9:42 pm

I’m not saying the LW isn’t at least somewhat understanding that she did something wrong, but given the fact that she didn’t say she was blackout drunk and by the timeline she has given is at least 28 years old, I hold her slightly more accountable for her socalled slip. I mean,I would love to know how this slipped out or in what context? Also, based on her letter, we shouldn’t automatically assume it was Holly who demanded this happen, maybe Devon was equally annoyed at this ill-timed slip, and felt it was easier to say it was Holly, or maybe LW is assuming on her end.

I may have known the history in my case, but it was more a matter of what is wrong with this girl; why is she talking about this with me after all these years? And in this letter, Its been years since they hooked up and shes talking about this hookup now, why? I just don’t feel bad for her I guess.

avatar AnitaBath September 6, 2011, 9:52 pm

Probably because it has been YEARS since they “hooked up.” They’re drunk, they’re reminiscing. I assumed she made some reference about their “past” that occurred in *2001* thinking it was no big deal, and the sober part of her that would have stopped and said, “Hmmm….I wonder if Devon has already told Holly about this,” was a little slow to kick in.

We get it. She made a small mistake. That doesn’t warrant Holly going crazy (and she didn’t mention Devon defriending her or anything so I’m assuming it’s mainly Holly, or perhaps it’s Devon as well but Holly is the only one who’s still stuck in high school that thinks defriending someone is the adequately passive aggressive way to handle a situation).

avatar Vera September 7, 2011, 1:17 am

Interesting range of views on the topic-However, it really boils down to what LW actually said. Did she say laughingly oh I got drunk with your fiancee back in the day and we stripped down? Or, did she comment I’m glad we decided to be friends and not end up dating? Because if it something along the former, that smacks of creepy mean girl style commentary. If it was the latter, than Holly is overreacting. I do think it is really impossible to know what went on. However, I do think it is strange that she insists that Holly has “banned” Devon from the friendship. Devon has a mind of his own and maybe he thought the whole bringing up the time we got drunk on New Year’s and got naked as inappropriate. Anyway, although Holly might be crazy I think LW might be equally crazy.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 7, 2011, 12:48 pm

You know, just because you’re drunk doesn’t mean you have to act like an idiot. True story… A very good female friend of mine seriously has the HOTTEST husband on the planet. He is so, so, so my type! Aside from the fact that he is (of course!) married. And totally, totally straight. I mean, he pings nobody’s gaydar…. Nobody’s… That said, for the past 12 years, I periodically have the HOTTEST erotic dreams about him. Now, these are completely in my sleep dreams… Not masturbatory fantasies…. But actual I-have-no-control-over-them dreams… You know what? I would NEVER, EVER tell either of them about these stupid dreams. The dreams annoy me very much after the fact… Now, I have to say, if I did — and they freaked out a bit…. Frankly, I wouldn’t blame them.

I still say this whole problem could have been avoided if people would simply learn to edit themselves better. Just because you think something doesn’t mean you have to say it. In other words… JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I’m seriously trying to imagine a real reason for doing what the LW did. Having no context for the conversation other than the fact that they were wasted… I am left grasping at straws and no matter how I look at it — “Hey, yeah! We had some confusion way back when! We saw each other naked! And made our one New Year’s Eve” is just so incredibly tacky! What was Holly SUPPOSED to say to that?! Seriously. What was she supposed to say? “Omigod! Cool! Isn’t he like totally hot naked?! I so love him, right!”

avatar AnitaBath September 7, 2011, 2:45 pm

Cool. So she should just take what she said back, right? Oh, wait, that’s impossible. Good thing everyone is giving such constructive advice instead of telling her what an idiot she is, because that’s WAY more constructive.

bittergaymark bittergaymark September 7, 2011, 6:20 pm

Anita, you never seem to get that 99% of my pithy advice here isn’t for the LWs. All to often their situations are simply beyond help. And so, my advice is much broader in that it’s everybody else so they don’t make the same silly mistakes as the LWs…

Sadly not every situation can be fixed.

This seems to be one of those. Yeah, Holly, more than a bit of a raving out of control freak. And yeah, shame on her for that. It certainly complicates things, and that’s too bad. But I still don’t see any real way the LW can effectively change that. What most of us are saying on here with our rousing choruses of “What were you THINKING?!” is hopefully telling the LW to learn from this easily avoidable mistake! And, moreover, to not do something so clueless again. And it was clueless to put it mildly. Look, the idea that most people don’t want to hear about YOUR sexual history with THEIR present partner isn’t exactly a revolutionary concept.

avatar Addie Pray September 6, 2011, 9:58 pm

This is clearly not the important part of your letter… but what do you mean you “tried to have sex”? Like, you gave it a go, but the parts didn’t fit? You got naked and then changed your mind? Or maybe you ran out of condoms and threw the towel in, so to speak? … Or wait, maybe he was too drunk and couldn’t get it up? That probably makes the most sense. For some reason, this part of your letter was odd to me. But I tend to dwell on unimportant things.

avatar Fancy Pants September 7, 2011, 1:13 am

Haha no, I wondered the same exact thing.

avatar Sue Jones September 7, 2011, 2:50 pm

Maybe the chemistry just was not there and it got to be ridiculous.

avatar 6napkinburger September 7, 2011, 7:41 pm

There was a guy who I “tried” to have sex with in college; it was/would have been my first time too. (No alcohol!!) I honest to goodness cannot tell you what happened or what went wrong. There was a condom, the putting on of the condom, us kissing and touching, him literally on top of me, some pain, and then we were watching the baseball game on tv. (The mets lost.) No ejeculations. No orgasms. No idea if there was penetration. No idea WTF. (This has caused some serious confusion as to when I “lost” my virginity. I literally lost it, I have no idea where or when it went away.) IIt boggles my mind that i cannot tell you physically what happened that night, but I think an apt phrase is that we “tried” to have sex.

A couple of years later, this guy and I talked about what had happened, because I was always confused and blamed my lack of experience for not knowing if we had sex. He didn’t know either and he wasn’t a virgin! (We took care of it later that night; now I know i have slept with him.) So, who knows? Maybe this happened to the LW? because it certaintly happened to me (or I made it happen? I don’t mean to shift the blame, if only I knew what I was shifting).

avatar Jess September 7, 2011, 1:52 am

I think holly is over-reacting big time, i’m sure she’ll be less angry after the wedding

avatar Fabelle September 7, 2011, 9:09 am

I get that the “slip” could have come out in the flurry of drunken girl-bonding, but the timing was ill & depending on the way the LW brought it up– it definitely reads as a little suspect. Even if unconscious. I get that it happened 10 years ago, etc. etc. but it may have been traumatizing to hear at that particular moment.

We have no way of knowing if Holly’s reaction was out-of-line. I find that a lot of self-proclaimed “guy’s girls” whine about how the SO of their “platonic” male friends FORBID them to maintain contact, which isn’t always accurate– couples tend to see friends less frequently and a man’s GF is obviously going to take priority. This is even often the man’s choice– not always the girlfriend cracking the whip. However, girls who have tons of dude friends AND say things like “I don’t get along with girls, they find me threatening, they’re too catty…” might always interpret the actions of other women to be negative (which could be why the LW is assuming she was “banned”) I agree an update would be helpful.

avatar Renee September 7, 2011, 10:35 am

I’m not a guys girl, but my husband and I dated back in college. Now many of his college friends in their mid-30s are getting married or just married. I could tell their wives/fiances everything they did back sophomore year with other women, but I wouldn’t. It’s tacky, because we’re respectful adults. It’s just not polite. It’s awkward, juvenile, and embarrassing on part of the person rekindling subjects that are better left in the past.

avatar SGMcG September 7, 2011, 11:21 am

I’ve been where you’re at LW. Heck, I even served as a bridesmaid in the wedding in question and I was christened an unofficial “auntie” before there was even any suggestion of children. The thing about most “marrieds” (and having been one myself for a few years now) is that there’s an “Us vs. The World” initial mentality that needs to be maintained in order for the marriage to kick start into action. You’re either with “Us”, or you’re automatically “The World”. It doesn’t matter if you don’t think of your guy friend romantically, the minute you offended Holly by making known information that wasn’t shared by Devon, you’ve now offended “Us”.

Does it suck losing a guy friend in this manner? Yes, it really truly does. Should amends to Holly be made in light of her being offended? Not necessarily…because remember that Devon went along with the decision. A few years from now, maybe Devon will reach out to you, when he realizes that the “Us vs. The World” mentaility for his marriage won’t make it last – a couple needs to share their lives with the World together. Yet only Devon can make that decision.

In the meantime, does your husband even know about all this drama that occurred? I would imagine that as Devon dropped you as a friend, your husband was also probably dropped in the process. Did you even ask him how HE felt about the situation? LW, rather than lamenting on your loss, you should work on the relationship you have with your husband, rather than the one with your guy friend. Devon made his future wife Holly a priority, so focus on your marriage instead.

avatar Sue Jones September 7, 2011, 2:47 pm

Holly has no sense of humor and seems really insecure and overly sensitive. I know many of my husbands exes before we got together and am friendly with them. Luckily we BOTH had a colorful past so there is no assymmetry there and I have told him about all of my exes and old adventures and so has he. It seems like Devon got involved with a very controlling woman. Those relationships often do not pass the 10 year mark, so perhaps when and I say WHEN they divorce, he will get back in touch. Until then, wish them well as I am sure that she will do everything on her own to ruin the marriage by being such a controlling bitch.

avatar Michelle September 7, 2011, 6:31 pm

I think the deal breaker for the girlfriend was the fact that she didnt know that the writer and her friend were *more* in the past.. that would bother me the most, why wouldnt he tell her about it? if i had already known, then not a big deal…

avatar niki September 9, 2011, 12:20 pm

I get the impression that the LW and Holly were never really good friends, but it was more of a “keep your friends close and enemies closer” kind of situation from the beginning. Holly was likely insecure about the friendship between Devon and the LW. I’m also wondering if she had asked Devon if anything had ever happened between him and the LW, and he told her no. Holly, being suspicious decided that her best bet was to be as close to the LW as possible. However, once LW opened her mouth it was all Holly needed to hear to confirm her suspicions and ban Devon from all future contact. This may be to punish Devon just as much as the LW.
Also, it seems like maybe the LW knew, or at least suspected, that Holly wasn’t completely trusting of the relationship and spilled the beans as a “ha ha” to Holly. LW may not have done it completely consciously, but I don’t doubt that sub-consciously, fueled by alcohol, she “let it slip” on purpose. LW needs to back down and realize that if Devon is still marrying Holly he has made his choice and that all parties involved take some blame in the implosion of this friendship. I doubt Devon and the LW will ever really be friends again. And even if they do somewhat reconcile Holly will never fully trust the friendship. I think the LW needs to learn from her mistake and move on. Yes, Holly sounds jealous and insecure, and Devon sounds like a weinie but there’s nothing LW can do at this point to unring this bell. I hope the LW can do some soul-searching, accept her responsibility in this mess, and learn from her mistakes.

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