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“My Fiancée is Threatening to Move Out”

I met my now fianceé shortly after I had my home built. She moved in a few months later and all was well. A friend of mine who I had roomed with before was being kicked out of his rental home and I asked my fianceé what she thought about him moving in. She said it was fine and felt bad that he was being kicked out on such short notice.

Within three months of him moving in with us, he got laid off. He found another job making significantly less funds, but enough to still pay rent, etc. Fast forward a few months to earlier this year and he and my fiancée both got aggravated with one another over something silly. My fiancée told me I needed to tell him he had to apologize to her, but when I spoke to him his side of the story was different, and I told my fiancée to just let it go. Over the next month, she became aggravated by little things she said he would do, like leaving a utensil or two in the sink and not cleaning them right away. My defense for him is that he keeps to himself for the most part.

Well, I ended up telling him that things weren’t totally working out and I gave him until March of next year to move out (in agreement with fiancée, of course). He said he was already looking elsewhere because he didn’t want to overstay his welcome and that he would more than likely move out in November, but by late December for sure. Unfortunately, within the last two weeks his transmission went out and he asked if it would be OK to stay a little longer so he could save money to replace it. I told him I didn’t think it would be a problem. When I mentioned this to the fiancée last night everything went south, and she said either he moves out by the end of the month or she would.

I told him this morning that him staying after this month was not going to work out, and he said he’s tired of my fiancée always calling the shots and he wants to stay longer. I know she won’t go for it, but what should I do? I don’t want to lose her, but is she controlling me too much? I want to make everyone happy, but at this point that cant happen. — Three’s a Crowd

It’s not your fiancée who’s controlling you; it’s your roommate. At the very least, he’s manipulating you and you’re actually letting his manipulation put your relationship with your fiancée — the woman you plan to marry and spend your life with — in jeopardy. Pull your head out of your ass! This guy has been taking advantage of your — and by extension, your fiancée’s — generosity, patience and good will for well over a year now. He knows damn well he’s “overstayed his welcome” and rather than do whatever he can to find a new place to live, he’s continuing to not only overstay his welcome, but blatantly disrespect your fiancée in the process. What’s wrong with this guy?! What’s wrong with you for letting him get away with it?

You’re about to get married. There are going to be a lot more issues in your future that you and your fiancée will need to compromise on. When you enter into a compromise, it’s important to think about what you’re prepared to sacrifice and what is a non-negotiable for you. Think of this situation with your roommate as practice for all the compromises you’ll be asked to make in coming years. Your fiancée has already sacrificed over a year of privacy so that your friend could have a place to live. She has now made it known that him moving out is a non-negotiable. If it doesn’t happen, she’s moving out. Are you really prepared to sacrifice your relationship because you’re unwilling to stand up to your roommate and tell him to get the hell out already? After a whole year of letting him crash there? Really??

If that’s what you’re saying — that you value the relationship you have with your irresponsible, shit-stirring roommate over that with the woman you plan to spend your life with — then you probably aren’t ready for marriage after all. But if you aren’t willing to put your relationship with her in jeopardy, for God’s sake, tell your roommate he has until the end of the month to find a new place to live because you don’t want to share your home with anyone other than the woman you love.

*If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, send me your letters at wendy@dearwendy.com and be sure to follow me on Twitter.

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Comments on this entry are closed.

Tracey Tracey December 6, 2011, 3:10 pm

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you also may want to check with a lawyer about asking him to leave. Reading the timeline you lay out in your letter and noting the fact that he’s been paying rent, the roommate would be considered a legal tenant in my home state, which means you’d have to go to court and start eviction proceedings. Tell him it’s time to go, and give him a timeline to move out (30-60 days), then stick to it this time. Do not tell him you’re going to consult a lawyer. If he’s not started moving at the end of the timeline, then you’ll have to go to court and start eviction proceedings.

As for the relationship with your fiancee, you two need to get to a counselor pronto to work out issues of compromise and communication. It sounds like she’s very upset that you aren’t listening to her, and that (frankly) you aren’t listening to her. (Note: Listening does not mean doing everything she says. It means really paying attention to her concerns, and weighing them with all due consideration when making a decision that will impact the two of you, no matter how small.) It also sounds like the two of you need to work on conflict resolution because of the way things have played out with your roommate. You’ll want to do this before you marry. These issues will only get worse as time goes on…even after the roommate who wouldn’t leave is long out the picture.

Good luck to you.

avatar CollegeCat December 6, 2011, 3:26 pm

Unless they have a contract or written property agreement he has no legal rights. It is the LWs home, not a real rental property. The “rent” is probably just money he hands to him over coffee once a month table. He was given months notice to leave and they had a verbal agreement on that time table. There really isn’t a case and without the money to even fix his transmission can’t see this guy hiring a lawyer anyway.

avatar Elle Marie December 6, 2011, 4:52 pm

Actually, it depends on the tenant rights in your state. In my state, this would most likely fall into a “tenant-at-will” situation, with a de facto verbal lease agreement. Which has specific rights attached to it, including that the at-will tenant must be given a specific amount of notice before they can be denied access to the property.

It really depends on the specific laws of the state where the LW lives.

Kate B. Kate B. December 6, 2011, 6:01 pm

MIne, too. Anyone who has been in a place for a year, lease or no lease, rent or no rent, is considered a tenant and has full legal rights.

avatar Something More December 6, 2011, 9:35 pm

In most (if not all) states, you are a legal resident if you receive your mail at a particular address and require at least a 30-day notice to evict someone.

avatar Beckaleigh December 6, 2011, 3:28 pm

I was thinking about this notice thing to. At first, he told the roommate that he had until the end of March to get out. But then, it turns into the end of December. Give him until the end of March like you all originally agreed.

avatar grendel December 6, 2011, 3:29 pm

Actually in almost all states, it’s his house, and there’s no written lease (even an oral agreement is voided by the statute of frauds), he can kick the guy out whenever he damn well pleases. Admittedly I’m not familiar with the laws of every state, but that’s both common law rules and at least a big majority of states. I remember in 30 Rock the bad boyfriend guy got kicked out of Liz’s apartment and he was like “But I have squatter’s rights!’ I assumed it was a joke at the time. Much like rent control, but that turned out to be a real thing. Anyway depends on where he lives. Don’t want to pay $50 to have a lawyer say you can kick him out at literally any time. I guess tell him to take a hike and if he says no you can call the police and tell them the story and they’ll either come over to shoo him away or tell you that the People’s Republic of New Yorkifornia or wherever doesn’t allow you to kick out squatters.

Tracey Tracey December 6, 2011, 3:45 pm

Hope that’s the case here, because this “friend” is not behaving above board at all. Still, it can’t hurt to check legal options because you never know. Here, if you’ve lived in a place for a set amount of time, get mail there and can prove you’ve been paying rent, you can argue that you’re a tenant with tenant’s rights.

avatar Guy Friday December 6, 2011, 7:05 pm

That’s just untrue. Elle Marie’s analysis is spot on. LW, if you want to make him leave, give him the 30-60 days notice that your state statute requires, and do it in writing. Have him sign something acknowledging receipt of the writing, or, if he refuses to sign, have a third party (NOT your fiancee) there to witness it and have that person sign showing that it was served. Then, after whatever time period it is, if he refuses to leave, call the cops.

caitie_didnt caitie_didn't December 6, 2011, 3:18 pm

I’m confused about the timeline here. How long did you guys date before getting engaged? How long did you date before she moved in? How old are all of you? (I’m assuming the LW is mid-late twenties at the youngest, if he could afford to build a home).

I generally don’t think ultimatums are a good idea, but the fiancee has been pretty reasonable up until this point- I mean, she probably moved in with thinking they were building a life + home together, and now buddy’s been invading that privacy for over a year. And really, if you can’t choose between your friend and your fiancee + relationship, you probably have no business getting married at all.

Oh, and if he signed a lease and has been paying rent, good effing luck trying to evict him if he refuses to move out.

Chicago-Dude DudeInChicago December 6, 2011, 3:21 pm

A friend in need is a friends indeed.
Sorry buddy, ditch the uncompromising chick.

Plenty of fish in the sea.

avatar artsygirl December 6, 2011, 3:31 pm

Really? A friend in need is someone who is actively working on bettering their situation. Yeah it sucks that he lost his lease, got fired, and now has expensive repairs, but seriously – letting someone live in your house for a year is extreme. The fiancee has compromised – the so called friend has not.

Chicago-Dude DudeInChicago December 6, 2011, 3:43 pm

It’s a stretch and a blatant lie to say the friend is not helping himself and mooching.

avatar silver_dragon_girl December 6, 2011, 3:53 pm

Have to say I kind of agree. He’s paying rent, got another job quickly, even making less money than he was before…shit happens. I feel bad for him.

Now, he’s overstayed his welcome and needs to get the heck out, but still. I do sympathize. There have been (and currently are) periods in my life where it’s one thing after another, and it feels like you’ll never get your feet back underneath you again.

Chicago-Dude DudeInChicago December 6, 2011, 10:35 pm

Sorry another stretch and a lie.
The friend had overstayed his according to the girl who doesn’t own the house or the LW – the good friend who owns the house?

avatar silver_dragon_girl December 7, 2011, 8:48 am

Since she’s his fiancee and was living with him before they even got engaged, I think she has every right to have a say in who lives with him. Or is that right magically conferred only when the ink dries on the marriage license?

avatar cporoski December 6, 2011, 5:03 pm

You know this guy is getting the friend rate and just chipping in. If he was paying real rent, then he wouldn’t have to continue to stay there to “Save money”. definate mooch. And if he didn’t get the best deal in town, it would be wierd to want to continue to live with a couple.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 6:07 pm

You don’t know that. But I bet damn well that the chick is getting the fiance rate. I bet she doesn’t even pay a dime.

avatar KL December 6, 2011, 6:29 pm

Why would you say that? I would presume she is paying roughly half the living expenses, as that’s the way most of the relationships I’ve seen have worked.

avatar amber December 6, 2011, 6:37 pm

i agree myself, nor any of my friends lived in a situation where their SO paid all the rent/mortgage/bills, etc and they didn’t pay anything. if that’s the case that’s an entirely different issue/letter in my opinion. although, this LW does seem to be somewhat of a pushover so who knows.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 6:59 pm

The simple fact that he never mentions this makes me think it is NOT the case. It says specifically that HE built his house. Nowhere does he mention that she also pays part of the mortgage… If she was paying her fair share, she would rightfully have played that card and it would be mentioned in the letter. Hopefully an update will clear all this up. Who knows? Maybe I am wrong here. But somehow I doubt it…

FireStar FireStar December 7, 2011, 9:41 am

He doesn’t mention the friend pays rent either actually. The LW says the friend’s new job generates enough income TO pay rent etc. Not that he actually is paying any to his friend. But you go ahead and assume whatever you want to. Your argument definitely works better that way.

avatar bethany December 7, 2011, 9:44 am

My friend’s husband won’t let her pay the mortgage. He said he made the decision to buy the condo way before he met her, so he’s not going to make her pay for his committments. However, she pays for all the utilities, which probably come close to costing as much as the monthly payment on a 1br condo.

avatar ekoms December 7, 2011, 4:32 pm

I’d like to know where to have a mortgage on a 1br condo for $100/mo.

avatar iseeshiny December 7, 2011, 4:49 pm

I’d like to know where your utilities are only $100/mo on a I br condo!

avatar ekoms December 7, 2011, 4:55 pm

heat and electricity. water sewer and trash are negligible. everything else is optional.

Chicago-Dude DudeInChicago December 6, 2011, 8:21 pm

Mark, exactly my thoughts.
She’s using her new found role to control this pitiful LW and is starting by creating a wedge between him & his buddy.

Karma, thankfully is a bigger bitch.

avatar cporoski December 6, 2011, 11:22 pm

It is funny to hear a guy’s opinion. Every girl I have known has paid all sorts of bills when living together, then if she is dumped, the guy gets all this equity in his house and she gets nothing because she is not a wife.

avatar cporoski December 6, 2011, 11:48 pm

Would you live with a couple? of your own free will? if renting by yourself was equal, you would live by yourself instead of with a “chick” that hates him. How would staying be saving money if the rent wasn’t low?

avatar savannah December 6, 2011, 3:33 pm

If by chick you mean fiancée. harder to ditch for sure.

Chicago-Dude DudeInChicago December 6, 2011, 8:18 pm

You are assuming.
Many an engagement have been broken without shedding of blood, sweat or tears.
Being a “fiancee” doesn’t entitle her to be a biznatch to his friend.

avatar Britannia December 6, 2011, 8:20 pm

Agreed.

Ain’t nothin’ set in stone… till it’s set in stone.

avatar savannah December 6, 2011, 8:39 pm

yep. I am assuming that someone who writes into Dear Wendy, an advice columnist, and states “I don’t want to lose her” might have at least a momentary pause about breaking an engagement. you caught me.

avatar amber December 6, 2011, 3:39 pm

even friends in need have a time limit. should he let him live with him for the next 10 years? at some point the friend needs to start getting his life in order.

avatar Jay December 6, 2011, 8:23 pm

Regardless with a fiancée or not, that’s the answer.

FireStar FireStar December 6, 2011, 4:09 pm

And how has this guy been a friend to the LW? Friendship is a two-way street. The “friend”causes strife between the LW and his fiancee without any care to how that would affect the LW; he imposes on them for over a year; aggravates the fiancee and feels no two ways about it. And THEN tells the LW the fiancee is controlling him in order to get his own way – ignoring the hypocrisy of being the one actually trying to manipulate the LW into doing what he wants him to do. How is this even a choice as to who to get rid of?

TaraMonster TaraRose December 6, 2011, 5:17 pm

Oh cut it out with that “bros before hoes” argument. They’re adults, not 19-year-olds living in a frat house. Most coupled up adults eventually stop cohabiting with their friends and live with their spouses or significant others. It’s the progression the LW was committing to before he was kind enough to allow his friend a place to live when he was in need. Now his friend needs to let go and find his own life/way/whatever. And LW needs to decide whether or not he can grow a spine and stand up for the woman he plans on spending the rest of his life with.

Chicago-Dude DudeInChicago December 6, 2011, 8:24 pm

Such an infantile argument.
So because the guy bucks the wishes of his “catch of the week”, he’s a “frat boy”, yea?

avatar Flake December 6, 2011, 8:50 pm

If she were the flavour of the month, it may have been different. As it is the LW thinks enough of her to get engaged. To disrespect her means to disrespect his ability to choose a mate for himself.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 8:56 pm

Or maybe he is just honestly expressing a very valid opinion. One his buddy should listen to because he is about to make a HUGE mistake…

avatar Flake December 6, 2011, 9:03 pm

Maybe he should.. but I am pretty sure that if the fiancée is the one to leave, the LW will have the roommate for a lot longer than he initially intended.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 9:18 pm

Well, better that than marrying the wrong person…

avatar JakDrake December 7, 2011, 2:49 am

“I told him this morning that him staying after this month was not going to work out, and he said he’s tired of my fiancée always calling the shots and he wants to stay longer.”

Since when the friend have right to take shots? that’s your house LW, and he obviously using you. My friends often crash when I’m still single, but after I get married, None of them even ask to. Why? because they are sensible and respecting me and my wife privacy. I know you are still engaged, but to disturb your love nest showing a bad character.

your friend doesn’t have any respect to you, your fiance and your relationship. If he still have a shred of self respect and dignity, he already out in first 3 month.

avatar Bossy Italian Wife December 7, 2011, 11:50 am

I think a friend in need is a friend indeed because they NEED something–not because they are an actual friend! C’mon. This guy is clearly taking advantage of the situation, not mention breeching the privacy of a couple who is about to be married. Beyond that, he is also using manipulation with his supposed “friend” by pitting him against his fiancé.

This roommate is a douche… not a friend!

avatar bethany December 6, 2011, 3:22 pm

You know that saying “Bros before Hos”?? Well I’m a firm believer in that –UNTIL you get married or engaged. Once you get married or engaged, that other person becomes your number one priority (until you have a child, I guess, then they take that spot).

You’ve been really good to your roommate- You’ve helped him out and you’ve been a good friend, but now it’s time for you to step up and respect your future wife. Your friend should hopefully have some other people in his life (or a credit card) that can help him with the transmission. It’s not your job to take care of him, but it is your job to take care of your fiance.

TaraMonster TaraMonster December 6, 2011, 5:21 pm

I wish I read this before I just used the same phrase to make a point. Lol. Anyway. Agreed!

And why are my comments awaiting moderation?

avatar Fabelle December 7, 2011, 10:32 am

I don’t think “bros before hos” is something that should apply right up until the day of marriage. If he’s serious about her, then she comes first. Also, whoever referred to her as a “catch of the week” seems to be missing the part where she’s his fiancè. Come on.

avatar artsygirl December 6, 2011, 3:27 pm

LW – There is a line between helping a friend out and being completely taken advantage of. You crossed that many months ago. As someone who has had 3 extended house guests in the last two years there comes a point where it gets to be overwhelming. In one case, my husband’s friend moved from another state and we agreed to put him up while he looked for an apartment and saved a little bit of money. After 3 months I wanted to pull all of my hair out. He was kind and friendly but it got to be really hard to cater to him. I found myself dreading going home because I would feel like I had to entertain him or listen to his problems – which were all self-inflicted. Finally I put my foot down and said he had to move out. He quickly found an apartment and signed a lease, but at 11th hour he realized he did not have enough money. When I found out about this, I couldn’t decide if I wanted to sit in a corner and cry or break something. A similar reaction your fiancee experienced, I bet. We ended up giving him money to get him to move out of the house, because I felt that if we didn’t he would never leave, something would always come up like in your case. This guy needs to move out, especially if he has been living rent free as was the case with us.

If you are worried that your fiancee’s behavior is a warning sign, try to put the situation in perspective. You have said this was your friend, did you fiancee know him really well before he moved in? Does she react extremely to other friends who do not share living space with you? Could her arguments with this guy stem from pent up frustration? Did she start arguing with him immediately or did it build up over time? Think back on the verbal interactions between your friend and fiancee, did he always treat her with respect and offer to help out with cleaning communal spaces or cooking meals? My guess is that the dirty fork blow up is not really about a dirty fork, rather it is about your fiancee feeling like your friend is taking advantage.

avatar amber December 6, 2011, 3:44 pm

i completely agree with you. i think this is more about being frustrated with the living situation. my husband and i had lived together before we were married and had a roommate for 6 months of that. being a guy some of the things that bothered me about living with the roommate didn’t bother him. but, i hated going home some days. i was so happy when we moved out i was right there crying with you (only these were tears of happiness).

thinking about the fiancees reactions to other things is a definitely a good idea. as well as answering some of the other questions you’ve presented.

avatar SpaceySteph December 6, 2011, 4:27 pm

Agree so hard with this. Beware the guy that calls you crazy, after all. In this case its not the LW but the roommate, but the rule stands. People are rarely truly crazy (and if she was, there would be more evidence than just the relationship between her and your squatter friend), they are more likely reacting to months of feeling put out, marginalized, stressed, and unwelcome.

My boyfriend’s roommate is a slob. My boyfriend doesn’t really care so much, but it drives me up a wall. Luckily I have my own house to go to with a clean kitchen and a fridge not full of old chinese food. I have already told my boyfriend that if we ever move in together it will be on the condition that his roommate moves out. As a person I don’t hate the roommate, but living with him every day, cleaning up his messes every day, never getting to relax without a bra in my own living room because this guy could walk in… this would drive me insane. The way the LW tells it, the fiancee sounds like she has put up with it long enough!

caitie_didnt caitie_didn't December 6, 2011, 5:32 pm

Hahaha, this is how I feel about my roommates from undergrad! Honestly, living with people (even people you like) is hard. I have one roommate now and we are well-suited to living together and were friends before, but sometimes it can be really aggravating! I can’t imagine thinking that I was going to be creating a little “love nest” with my fiance and then discovering that his buddy was going to be living there for the next year + . That would mean having to moderate your sex life (maybe it’s just me but the thought of someone else being able to hear me have sex just freaks me right out), not being able to lounge around in my bathrobe and a million other things.

avatar cookiesandcream December 6, 2011, 6:27 pm

I wish I could thumbs this up more! I think your questions are ones that the LW really needs to consider. By the way, I always like looking at your avatar whenever you comment! Is it a necklace that you made?

avatar lk December 6, 2011, 3:27 pm

“If… you value the relationship you have with your irresponsible, shit-stirring roommate over that with the woman you plan to spend your life with — then you probably aren’t ready for marriage after all.”

Thank you, Wendy.

& LW………. your fiance is a patient woman. Who probably needs a spa weekend for Christmas. Also, jewelry.

avatar CottonTheCuteDog December 6, 2011, 3:29 pm

Your fiance comes before your friend. Goodbye friend!

avatar lk December 6, 2011, 3:30 pm

“Fast forward a few months to earlier this year and he and my fiancée both got aggravated with one another over something silly. My fiancée told me I needed to tell him he had to apologize to her, but when I spoke to him his side of the story was different, and I told my fiancée to just let it go.”

So…. you took your moocher buddy’s side over your future wife’s ??? MAN. Maybe you should just cut her loose – but still buy the gifts.

avatar CollegeCat December 6, 2011, 3:44 pm

THIS! Even if the 2 sides of the story don’t match up, if all it would take for the fiancee to “just let it go” is an apology than you should have gotten her one. If the friend couldn’t say “I’m sorry for the misunderstanding the other day and I will ____ to make sure it doesn’t happen again” than he should have moved out right then. You and your fiancee are making sacrifices for him and he couldn’t muster up a simple apology if only to make your life easier??? he is walking all over the both of you and you are just letting it happen!

avatar MJ December 6, 2011, 3:34 pm

My cousin and her husband are super laid-back people who have been married for 7 years and have happily lived with other couples in communal living situations for the entire duration of their marriage.

I also consider myself a (mostly) laid-back and compassionate person, but I NEED MY SPACE. I can’t imagine having a house guest for, what sounds like, 8 months or more. Especially when I’m adjusting to living with a partner.

There are lots of different kinds of people in the world, and they all have different needs. Based on your letter, I wouldn’t say your fiancee is being unreasonable, because perfectly reasonable people would be irritated with a houseguest after many months, even if it were their best friend in the world.

avatar Ktfran December 6, 2011, 3:35 pm

Something nobody has brought up yet.

You and your fiance discussed and agreed upon a timeline to get this friend out of your house. That was March of 2012. You told this to your friend and he said he was going to try to move out sooner. Unfortunately, that didn’t happen and he asked to stay longer. I honestly think you should stick to your original timeline and tell him he must be out of the house by 2012.

I’m sure the fiance was excited about the prospect of this dude leaving sooner and is mad he’s not. But at one time, she did say March 2012 and is now back peddling. It sucks for her. It sucks for you. And I’m sure it sucks for him. But such if life. You all need to grow up and have a calm, rational discussion with a plan in place.

avatar Meredith December 6, 2011, 4:50 pm

I was totally thinking the same thing! She originally was fine with March and now all of a sudden staying to the end of December is a deal breaker? Sounds like she’s the unreasonable one here.

avatar artsygirl December 6, 2011, 5:06 pm

I think she is mostly reacting out of stress. No matter who is wrong, the friend and the fiancee obviously cannot live together and both are growing to resent and dislike each other. The fiancee finally saw a light at the end of the tunnel when he said he would be out ASAP but has now back tracked. I imagine that the fiancee feels that this will continue to happen because he hasn’t gotten the gumption to move out yet. First it was the housing problem, then the job, now his transmission…who knows what is next. He travels over the holidays so he doesn’t have money, he needs more money for an apartment lease, the place he wanted to move to is full, etc. I am not necessarily saying this is the case, but if I were in the fiancee’s place, I think this is how I would feel.

I agree that the LW should sit down and talk to his fiancee and ask her if it would be ok if the friend stayed for a short while longer…set a hard and fast date and then stick to it. If he talks to her like she is a decision maker and actually gives weight to her opinions then I imagine she will agree to extend his friends tenure a little longer.

avatar CottonTheCuteDog December 6, 2011, 6:20 pm

Think about it if you were the girlfriend. You agree to March 2012 and you give him 6 months notice. So lets say they told him at the end of September. He said he would be gone by the end of December. Yes! He is leaving sooner! You can’t wait!

Then he says he can’t leave at the end of December. You are so sick of living with him you don’t think you can take him anymore. You’d rather move out than live with him.

I’d want my fiance to tell the friend to go or I’d move out too. I wouldn’t agree to March 2012 again.

avatar silver_dragon_girl December 6, 2011, 3:35 pm

I totally sympathize with the unwanted roommate here. It is ALWAYS something, isn’t it?

That being said, dude, LW, you have GOT to get him out of there. It sounds like he and your fiancee finally just reached point where they can’t live together peacefully anymore. It sucks, but I can’t say I blame her for feeling that way.

To be fair, though, I think her telling you that YOU had to tell HIM to apologize to HER is totally out of line and pretty childish. I appreciate that you’re trying to be neutral and keep the peace here, but I think this is one time where you really have to just choose a side and stick to it.

avatar Colleen December 6, 2011, 3:36 pm

I agree with Wendy that your fiance seems to be pretty reasonable about this. It is really important that your house feel like her home, too, if you plan to build a future together. That means letting her have say about who lives there and what goes on under your roof. I cannot stress enough how important it is that you help her feel at home in your house. When it comes to big stuff like this, she comes before your friends, period. If you can’t give her that primacy, then she deserves someone who can.

Can you help your buddy out some other way (with your fiance’s approval, of course)? Can you store his stuff for a while, give him a break on rent this month, help him find a new place, or something else to get him on his way without just tossing him to the curb? It sounds like he has had some tough breaks and it’s admirable that you want to help him out. But your helping can’t get in the way of your relationship or soon you won’t have a relationship of which to speak.

avatar LolaBeans December 6, 2011, 3:36 pm

man, i’d be SO damn pissed off if i were the finance. wow. i’m surprised she didn’t give you this ultimatum after him living there for 3 months.

your fiance is damn patient, and i’d tell your friend to move out for January 1st.

also, make ammends with your fiance pronto. tell her how much you appreciate her having given up her privacy for the sake of your friend misfortune.

then take her away for a nice weekend just the two of you.

avatar CollegeCat December 6, 2011, 3:36 pm

This LW is clearly not ready for marriage. If all his friend had to do was say that “your gf is controlling” to make him come to this site to ask if she is controlling him he clearly doesn’t know his fiancee well. After reading this letter the top 3 traits I would come up with for his SO is kind, generous and patient. For a YEAR she let this guy stay in what was supposed to be their blissful love nest. It seems she has been compromising for quite awhile now and both you and your friend are taking advantage. If I was her and read this letter I would break the engagement. If you have to ask if she is being too controlling and can have your opinion on the love of your life swayed so easily by some grifter – clearly you don’t know this woman well enough to think about forever. When you are ready to put her opinion above those of your friends then you should reconsider the long term. This is just sad.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 6:01 pm

Or maybe she really IS controlling and he’s just now beginning to see it. Hey, I’ve found that most people only give an idea credence and validity in their mind if it is, for the most part, true. If she truly wasn’t controlling, somehow I suspect the LW would have merely laughed his friend’s suggestion off. The fact that he didn’t is, frankly, very telling.

TaraMonster TaraMonster December 6, 2011, 10:27 pm

The only thing it tells me is that he can’t sand up for himself period. Doesn’t mean either the fiance or the squatter has a better point. Just that he has never had enough confidence in his damn self. In that case he sure isn’t ready for marriage, and he STILL needs to get rid of the roommate. He needs to be alone until he figures his shit out.

avatar WatersEdge December 6, 2011, 10:43 pm

Either the friend is right or the guy is weak-willed. Can’t be sure…

TaraMonster TaraMonster December 7, 2011, 12:43 pm

On further contemplation if she really was a controlling person the squatter would be out already. A controlling person would not let that shit go down for as long as the fiance has. So. No. I take it back. Ditch the roommate. He’s the mooch.

avatar amber December 6, 2011, 3:37 pm

They’re both controlling you. She should have talked to you more calmly (minus the threats of leaving) about wishing he could move out. And your roommate needs to grow up and realize he can’t live with his friend who is getting ready to get married for the rest of his life.

I think you need to have a talk with your fiancee about communicating better and you need to pick a timeline for your friend and stick to it. Did you tell your fiancee to her face that you thought her issues with him were silly? I might have gotten upset at you if I was in her shoes. Sure the issue might seem silly to you, but living with your fiancee and his friend for a year can’t be ideal. And if he’s been living with you this long (without trying to move out on his own or in with other roommates) I’m going to guess that there will be many ‘transmission’ type issues that constantly come up that prolong his stay. Perhaps thoughts like that prompted your fiancee to get even more upset and threaten to leave?

avatar Ktfran December 6, 2011, 3:46 pm

Yes! I think this entire situation could have been avoided if the friend would have apologized. But I can see why he wouldn’t if he knew the fiance demanded it. That reeks (sp?) of controlling behavior. A molehill is now a mountain and the LW is stuck in the middle. Communication is key people.

avatar CollegeCat December 6, 2011, 3:53 pm

I don’t think it was a threat and I don’t think we can determine whether or not she was being calm when she said this either. There is nothing uncalm or irrational about offering him a choice. They had a discussion and agreed on a time for the friend to leave. This is communication. When he broke this agreement he made a choice in favor of the friend – she gets to make one too. She has the right to say that she will not live with this friend indefinitely anymore. This is a fact and not an ultimatum or a threat. She has been patient with the situation for a year now. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know who comes first in your relationship you- or his friends. In fact I think she is being brave by risking her engagement in order to do what is best for her.

avatar amber December 6, 2011, 3:56 pm

i guess that was poor word choice. i think it is out of line/irrational to demand your fiance to get his friend to apologize to you. the rest of what you said i agree with completely. and i more than agree that she shouldn’t have to live with the friend indefinitely and that they need to set some time lines. but, in general it seems like they don’t have the best communication (at least from the letter).

avatar CollegeCat December 6, 2011, 4:34 pm

I can’t say I have ever demanded an apology before and it may be irrational (because an apology given under duress means nothing) but if that is all she needed to move on then why not? She has already made a lot of sacrifices and simply asked for an “I’m sorry for the misunderstanding the other day and I will ____ to make sure it doesn’t happen again.” It may seem petty but aren’t we all petty at times. The refusal to ask the friend to apologize just makes one more time that the LW chose his side over hers. Even the LW admits that it all went downhill after that. Instead of recognizing that he is the problem he is looking to blame his fiancee. It is even more irrational for him to think that she will continue to be okay with him prioritizing others feelings and needs over hers.

avatar Ktfran December 6, 2011, 4:12 pm

College Cat-

You’re right. They did have a discussion and the LW and the fiance agreed that the friend had to leave. But you’re wrong on the timeline. The LW and fiance originally agreed to a March 2012 deadline. The friend said he was going to try to leave sooner. He is now asking to stay a little longer. The agreed time was March 2012. Not November/December 2011. It is the fiance who is breaking the agreement. Not the LW and not the friend.

I also agree that this guy can’t stay indefinitely. And it would be best if he would just leave. But there is a major breakdown of communication and it’s not getting anyone anywhere.

avatar CollegeCat December 6, 2011, 4:25 pm

I understand the timeline completely and that they agreed that he had to leave in march but it was the LW who told the friend March 2012 and came back to the fiance with November/December at the latest. Once the friend told the LW that he did not plan on staying until March, the time he chose (end of 2011) becomes the agreement. It is not unreasonable for the LW to assume that the fiancee would be okay with extending the deadline back to March, but after months of thinking “by New Year’s we’ll have this place to ourselves” it is not unreasonable for the fiancee to be upset by ANOTHER change of plans either. I honestly don’t believe communication is the problem here – they have talked about this guy leaving for over a year and now she wants to see some action. She has reached her breaking point and has decided that either way one of them has to go and I can’t really blame her.

landygirl Landygirl December 6, 2011, 3:41 pm

Bah, ditch them both.

avatar LolaBeans December 6, 2011, 3:47 pm

why the fiance?

landygirl landygirl December 6, 2011, 8:03 pm

She just seems controling and passive agressive. It isn’t her house, it’s the LW’s house.

avatar hhr December 6, 2011, 10:29 pm

After they get married, it will be *their* house. IF they get married. If the roommate ever moves out. She’s probably wondering when or if they’ll ever be alone in the same house together or when she’ll be able to experience what it’s like to live alone with her fiance and maybe even have the freedom to set a date for the wedding (or are they all three supposed to live happily ever after?). Patient girl, holding off on her life for this clown roommate, adjusting her plans according to *his* needs. It’s probably not what she signed up for, but she seems like a good, supportive fiance, compromising and setting aside her own desires for over a year. And now finally she’s directly asking her fiance (who’s in a relationship with HER, not the roommate) for one of her needs to be met. I don’t see where you get “controlling” or “passive aggressive” from her actions.

avatar GTR December 7, 2011, 12:23 am

I totally get the “controlling” and “passive aggressive” thing, specifically when I read this line,

“My fiancée told me I needed to tell him he had to apologize to her.”

Good freakin’ grief, that’s the dictionary definition of “controlling” and “passive aggressive”! Tell him yourself, woman! Deal with your own problems rather than nagging a man to fix them for you! I mean what is this, the 1950s?

Unfortunately this couple inhabit a grey area of relationship. She doesn’t get the full rights of a wife to say what goes on in her home, and yet she has more power than a mere girlfriend to make demands. The LW brought this on himself when he let her move in, and how he has to suffer with it. This needs to be resolved.

landygirl Landygirl December 7, 2011, 3:07 pm

I think that no one in this situation is handling it well, including the LW. I don’t like the fact that fiancee expects the LW to handle the issue she has with the friend. If she is an adult, she should take it up with the friend directly. Also, adults don’t give ultimatums, they figure out the best strategy and work their way from there.

As for the friend, he needs to get his act together. He must know that he is causing a rift between the LW and his fiancee and is doing little to rectify it. Does he not have any other friends he can stay with? He is taking advantage of the LW in many ways.

I know the LW is between a rock and a hard place but he should not be the operator in a game of telephone between the friend and the fiancee. It makes me question the maturity of the entire bunch.

avatar TheGirl December 7, 2011, 12:28 pm

I totally agree!

The fiance is clearly incapable of dealing with her own problems. What grown-ass woman goes to her fiance to tell him to tell his friend (whom she lives with) to apologize to her. If you want an apology, get it yourself. Hash it out, don’t just be passive agressive and let it fester for months on end. At the very least invest in some premarital counseling. She needs to learn how to fight properly.

The friend is too stubborn and stupid to realize that this is one of those situations where its better to apologize and smooth things out than be *right*. (I’m not claiming that he is right, just that he perceives himself as right.) He doesn’t have to apologize for what he said or did or admit wrong-doing, just apologize for hurting her feelings. Remember, there’s always three versions to any story – what he said, what she said and the truth. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

They’re both a couple of ass-hats and shouldn’t be forcing the LW to mediate their problems. Next time your fiance comes to you and tells you to tell someone else to do something, tell you’ll back her up, but she needs to tell them herself. This is not fifth grade.

FireStar FireStar December 6, 2011, 3:49 pm

Your friend has lived with you for over a year – why would he need need to stay a “little longer” to save up money? What does a little longer mean? Wasn’t your initial arrangement for only a little while? Why doesn’t he have the money saved already if he has had a job for almost the whole time he has been living there? It seems like something will always come up and you will never be rid of him if you are waiting for him to leave on his own.
I’m not sure why you are willing to risk your happiness for this man. Telling you you are letting your fiancee make decisions for you when things don’t go his way shows his true colours, no? Especially given how long you both have been patient with him. Your happiness doesn’t mean anything to him – he is willing to risk you losing the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with – all so he can avoid responsibility, manning up and taking care of himself. That doesn’t sound like much of a friend to me.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 6:17 pm

He’s been paying rent the whole time. When you get your own place you often need a deposit and all that stuff. It’s actually not out of left field to need more time. Also, he was out of work for while. Despite all that, the guy NEVER skipped paying rent. A fact few of you give him any credit for…

He agreed to be out by March 2012. And now they’ve (or rather she’s) moved the timeline up. That’s something they did. Not him. He’s not asking for more time, really. They are just taking it away.

It’s always stand by the girl here. Even if she comes off as whiny and controlling. Whatever.
Somehow I imagine that if the sexes were simply reversed here so that a man was demanding that his fiance’s best girlfriend move out of the house that she/not he pays for, you’d all (rightly) jump on him for being a textbook controller who seeks to isolate his victim… Seriously. Give that some thought though.

theattack theattack December 6, 2011, 6:46 pm

Can you really jump on us for supporting the girls when you are always supporting the guys? That’s a bit hypocritical.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 6:49 pm

Um, I am so NOT always supporting the guys. Heck, in the other letter today, I rip a guy to shreds for being a drunk driver among other things…

theattack theattack December 6, 2011, 6:57 pm

But you also admitted in that comment that that was unusual for you.

” I mean, in a way, it’s almost hilarious as I am usually bending over backwards on here defending the guys girl write in here about — but in this case there is simply nothing to defend. ”

I’m not trying to start anything. Just pointing out to you that the very thing you accuse everyone else of doing is something you also do. We all view things through the lens of our own gender. All of our thoughts, feelings, and of course, comments, are affected by our own experiences. We all do a certain amount of placing ourselves in the shoes of whichever person we are most similar to. Many times that is related to gender. Sometimes it’s related to issues of race or poverty or obesity or mental illness. Because this is largely an advice column related to relationships, gender is often a main issue here.

Wow, that became a much larger point than I intended to make here.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 7:04 pm

Frankly, I tend to stick up for the men on here because nobody else does. That said, when somebody is an idiot, I call them out on it. Male or female. And I really think the friend here is getting a bum rap. That is largely, unwarranted. I also don’t think I am nearly so blind about what I am doing either. There is a method to my madness. But with this letter so many are siding with the chick who, sadly, comes across as a bit of a harpie, that I thought it was especially alarming…

theattack theattack December 6, 2011, 7:15 pm

I agree with you that the friend here shouldn’t be criticized so much. But whether the friend is great or not, the problem still exists in the home, and the advice is about what the LW should do, right? He’ll have to choose to either side with the fiancee or the friend. Most of us are looking at it as weighing which relationship is heavier, I believe (at least that’s what I’m doing). To give an example of when the majority did not side with the female is the bi-sexual letter that was recently updated. (Well, I actually didn’t ever read that letter, but from the update, I’m gathering most people tended to support her MALE fiance).

It sounds like you’re intending to contradict what everyone else is saying for the purpose of showing different perspectives. And in the process, you’re trying to illuminate the biases that we may have in responding? I’m trying to understand you because your comments are often quite extreme and angry.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 7:33 pm

You’re on to something in your last paragraph.

With this letter, my underlying point of view is that I find it sad and disturbing how many people simply chuck aside their REAL friends, friends who have been there for them for years, just because they get married to somebody who is difficult to be around.

(Amazingly, this has NEVER happened to me. No, seriously. It hasn’t.)

But I have witnessed it many times. And I have to say, blind allegiance to your significant other is a truly fucking stupid concept. You know what? If I am acting like a bitch, I’d like to be told so. I don’t make other’s fight my battles for me either. Demanding your husband MAKE his friend apologize to you? How pathetic! I think that is really beyond pathetic.

But clearly I am nearly along in thinking this on here. Oh, that poor fiance. Whoa is her! She should ALWAYS be able to expect her man to chose her over his lifelong friend even if she’s being a deranged bitch about it. Really? Wow, that’s an incredibly lame view of love some of you have. But clearly many of you simply expect your man to ALWAYS stand by you and your side no matter how at fault you may be. Um, okay, I think that’s pretty fucked up. Moreover, I think that is a recipe for disaster because eventually, your man is going to tire of it and divorce.

Real love means being able to call one another on your bullshit.

If you can’t handle that, then you are far too immature to be married. Then again, clearly, most ARE too immature to be married as the divorce rate is absurd. Interesting, guess all that blind allegiance to one another isn’t all it was cracked up to be…

theattack theattack December 6, 2011, 8:05 pm

hahahahahaha!

First, you of course realize that this is not the one and only factor behind divorces, so I’ll just leave that alone.

I personally do not feel that there should always be blind allegiance to a significant other. But when there comes a situation in which the significant other is not being crazy, a person may end up in a situation where he does have to make a choice between two people. If the fiancee was being unreasonable, it would become more of an issue of allegiance to the SO vs. the right thing for the LW. Because I believe the fiancee is making reasonable demands, I am framing the situation more as allegiance to the SO vs. allegiance to the friend. In either situation, the LW has to realize that a potential consequence of not choosing the side of his fiancee is that his relationship might have some issues or even completely end.

About choosing between a friend and a significant other… this is a personal choice for everyone. The most popular opinion seems to be that a lifetime commitment to a significant other prioritizes that person over anyone else. In fact, I think that’s in many wedding vows, but I could be wrong. Before that commitment is made, the friend often takes priority (though this varies by the seriousness of the relationship). Since this woman is his fiancee, and he is committing to her, the issue of when that allegiance begins arises. If their engagement is the beginning of their lifetime commitment, which is a popular opinion on DW, then she would become the priority. You clearly have priorities that differ from these though. But I think most of us hope that our life partners/husbands/wives/whatever will stand by our side if we’re reasonable. And if we’re not being reasonable, that they will try to see our side first, and then gently work with us to compromise or explain what’s wrong with our reasoning.

avatar Flake December 6, 2011, 8:12 pm

Once you get married, your SO becomes your family. And family deserves to be prioritized over friends.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 8:14 pm

Um, NOT if they are clearly in the wrong…

Chicago-Dude DudeInChicago December 6, 2011, 8:32 pm

Lookie here, sometimes even family is wrong. Failing to call it it is grounds for a repeat of wrongdoing and eventually, building of resentment.

Resentment breeds contempt and contempt is well…
I think you catch where I’m going.

avatar Flake December 6, 2011, 8:43 pm

But this is not one of those times. Even if the girl is overreacting, the roommate is not exactly blameless here. If I saw that my presence is causing any kind of tension between my friend and his or her SO I would do everything to fix the situation (and I am not talking about extreme cases of actual abusive/controlling behavior). And generally if I no longer feel welcome, I leave.

avatar Something More December 6, 2011, 10:02 pm

1. They aren’t married yet.
2. Yes, family should be prioritized over friends when it is DESERVED.
3. He IS trying to leave. The roomate was the one to up his date of leaving. Something came up and now he has to fall back on an ALL AROUND agreed later date.

The ultimatum is what gives me pause on this letter. She agreed to March. Maybe the roomate got her hopes up by saying he could move out sooner, but shit happens.

avatar Christy December 6, 2011, 10:43 pm

Amen!

avatar Kate December 6, 2011, 11:40 pm

Let me try to approach the issue in this way: though I do not accept your assumption the girl is acting wrongly, let’s assume she is. I think we can also assume that in some way the friend is in the wrong as well. Regardless of what timeline should be honored and which is fair, the roommate has been benefiting from his relationship with his friend for FAR too long, rent or no rent. To prioritize the importance of his friend, the roommate should have been hustling to get out as soon as possible. I’m telling you as someone who has been in this situation in the middle of dire straits and you CAN find a way to change your situation even if it means tapping into other resources both monetary and friend-wise. So assuming both the people in the LW’s situation are wrong and it’s a dead heat of wrongdoing, you STILL choose…the fiancé.

Friends and family are so important to who we are and where we’ve been, but when we make a commitment of the magnitude of marriage, those relationships take a secondary position. The LW is NOT prioritizing what should be his primary relationship. If I had a girlfriend staying with me and my partner, you can bet I’d be on her to get on her feet sooner rather than later out of consideration for my man. Because he is my priority. He would never have to ask me to get her out because I would not let the intrusion get to that point. Friendship is being there to catch our friends and to help them as much as we possibly can when they need it, but when that friendship is being taken for granted for too long, a person can find themselves going above and beyond the call. If it were his mother staying for that long, it would still be an overlong stay and an imposition.

On another note, it is not the friend’s place to tell the LW how his relationship should be. Even if he were doing it in a respectful way (and it certainly didn’t sound that way) it would not be his place to bring the relationship into the mix at that time. Sounds like the desperate move of a guilty moocher to me. A “real friend”? A “real friend” insinuates himself in your life, home and relationship for months on end? I think not. There’s always a way to make yourself less obtrusive, ESPECIALLY when you have a job. The LW is an adult and it is NOT the friend’s place to interfere in a relationship he doesn’t know everything about. If the fiancée were behaving badly, he’d certainly be in the right to defend himself to her directly or even ask the friend to mediate disagreements with all three of them present, but it is inappropriate to use what may or may not be lacking in the relationship to sidestep the issue of the friend’s extended stay. Dostoevsky wrote, “You can never be sure of what has passed between husband and wife or lover and mistress. There’s always a little corner which remains a secret to the world and is only known to those two.” The friend is NOT in a position to use his friend’s relationship as ammunition to defend himself in such a way.

However, yes a person should certainly back up their partner even when having to choose them over a lifelong friend. Not blindly, but as a general rule. As I wrote above, if it’s a draw between the two people in your life, you fall on the side of the one you made the most serious commitment to. You can always “call them on their bullshit” in private if it bothers you, but yes the most important part of relationships is being able to trust your partner to stick by you. I’m especially skeptical of an advice giver who thinks, “Real love means being able to call one another on your bullshit.” That’s not love, that’s how you conduct yourself when you’re dating at 16. Adults don’t “call each other out” they discuss, negotiate, communicate, etc. Like you wrote about the fiancée, this snippet is quite telling regarding your experience with male friends in relationships. Nothing about a functional adult romantic relationship or friendship is “blind,” it just looks that way to those outside of it.

Caris Caris December 6, 2011, 8:34 pm

actually the one to move the time-line was the friend himself when he said he’d try to move out by november-december…

avatar hhr December 6, 2011, 11:10 pm

“It’s always stand by the girl here.”

I cannot roll my eyes hard enough at this. You don’t seriously think everyone here blindly sides with girls in every situation no matter what do you? I feel like I read a variation of this comment from you on every other column, bgm. There are PLENTY of situations written about on this site in which the majority of female commenters call the girl out or empathize with the guy.

I would think you wouldn’t waste so much of your time reading and commenting on a site that was so anti-male, as you’d have us believe.

FireStar FireStar December 7, 2011, 10:06 am

Nothing says he is paying rent. Just that he is making enough money to pay it since he got the lower paying job. As in – he can move out since he is making sufficient funds to do so. But let’s assume you are right – nothing says he “NEVER” skipped paying – I’m going to make an educated guess and say he didn’t pay the three months he wasn’t working since saving doesn’t seem to be his forte if he still doesn’t have any savings to fix his car. And the fiancée didn’t move up the time table for him to be out – the friend did. And the friend isn’t saying he needs until March – he is saying he needs ‘more time.’ Which is how he came to live there for over a year- needing more time since his last place didn’t give him enough. Exactly how much is enough? An ENTIRE YEAR is insufficient to see about your business and save up first and last’s months’ rent for an apartment or a room in a boarding house? People give their grown CHILDREN marching orders quicker than this friend has taken to get back up on his feet. Where exactly is the point where this friend is taking advantage of the LW’s good nature? If the friend is tired of the fiancee calling the shots then he should put on his big boy pants and start taking responsibility for his own life.

And enough already with the girl power over shadowing sense on this site. Plenty of us call it as we see it. Look at the letter from the writer who assaulted her boyfriend if you need your proof. Quite frankly, since you freely admit to having taken up the shield of all male-kind – your bias in saying “it is all about standing by the girl” is not just hypocritical – it’s getting tiresome.

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 10:26 am

“Within three months of him moving in with us, he got laid off. He found another job making significantly less funds, but enough to still pay rent, etc.”

This from the orig letter says EXACTLY that he is paying rent. And where do you get that he wasn’t working for three months? Seriously. Do people even read the letters? He was living with the LW for three months when he got laid off, found another lower-paying job and continues to pay rent. Your ENTIRE argument is moot if you can’t comprehend a couple of simple sentences. So, I guess your entire argument is moot.

And, please. This site is overwrought with “girl power” attitude. I’m surprised there isn’t a Spice Girls tribute group around here. When that girl wrote in about her friend having an STD and not telling her boyfriend, about 95% of you said “Yeah, the girlfriend should tell him, but if she doesn’t, mind your own business.” If THAT had been gender reversed people would have Lost Their. Shit. on here.

avatar Flake December 7, 2011, 10:37 am

That is simply rude.

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 10:59 am

LOL – Probably. But that’s your opinion. Mine is that you can’t give your “educated guess” on something that you obviously didn’t read thoroghly enough to “get.”

I stand by my comments 100%.

avatar Flake December 7, 2011, 11:24 am

Good for you. But your guess is just that, a guess as well. I read the letter too, and I also did not jump to the conclusion that the roommate has been such a model citizen, dealing with a deranged and controlling bitch that you seem to think the fiancée is. If it really is such an unbearable living situation for him, then nothing is stopping him from manning up and moving out.

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 11:48 am

No where did I say or even imply that I thought he was model citizen, just not the loser, scumbag mooch that he has been (unfairly) portrayed on here. Deranged and controlling bitch MIGHT be over-speculating my comments a bit. Altho, I see some controlling tendencies in the letter, which is what I have commented on earlier. And MONEY! Money is keeping him from moving out. The roommate had plans to move out and his transmission busted. Have you ever had to pull money out of your ass for something like that? My engine siezed up on me a couple years ago and if it were not for the awesomeness of my friends, I probably would have lost my job. I had to take out a loan for 4K to get it fixed and borrow a car from a friend for over 2 weeks. Shit happens.

avatar Flake December 7, 2011, 11:58 am

And you know what, since we are nit-picking on the details here, he moved with them not because he had no money, but because he was being thrown out of his rental home. According to the letter he was jobless for a very short while. He was never unable to pay rent. He had plenty of time to make other living arrangement. But he chose to stay and intrude on a soon-to-be married couple. If he pays rent to the LW, there is no reason why he can’t pay that rent to someone else. And that makes it even worse. And yes, life happens, and friends should be able to help each other out. But part of being a friend is knowing your limits, and not trying to actively sabotage your friend’s relationship for your personal gain.

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 12:19 pm

So now nit-picking is pointing out huge factors in this situation? Ummkay.

We can argue about this all day long. Or I could anyway. The roommate wasn’t intruding until the fiancee said he was. It seems from the letter that they were an engaged couple who had a roommate. Not the first time in the history of co-habitation that this has happened. The fiancee and the roommate had an arguement over something “silly.” LW is the ONLY one out of anyone to hear both sides of the story and has deemed it as such. Yet, the fiancee still told LW to MAKE the roommate apologize. And now she is acting like a big baby when she didn’t get her way. Yeah, the roommate *might* have been out of line on the controlling comment, but since he actually lives there, he would know more than us.

avatar Flake December 7, 2011, 12:33 pm

The fact that the friend doesn’t really need help and still hangs around is a huge one too. And yes, after at least 5-6 months of living with a dude, who in no way was a part of the deal, her patience wore thin and she decided that it was time to make her relationship with the LW a priority. Wether the argument was over something important to the LW or not doesn’t matter. It was important enough to her. That does not make her a baby. That makes her a woman who has her priorities straight, unlike the LW.
And yes, this could be endless, so you are right, she is the evil one, the roommate is the hero who rescues the LW from hell of a relationship, and the LW is a mature man who sways which ever way the wind blows…

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 1:54 pm

Where does it say the friend doesn’t need help? He had a place to live which fell thru when he had to replace his tranny. That, to me, seems like he has money issues.

Not part of the deal? It’s not like LW brought his friend home one day and said, “Oh, yeah, this guy is going to live with us now.” Again, DO PEOPLE NOT READ LETTERS?? She agreed. AGREED! She said it was fine. Then, she said it wasn’t OK anymore and they ALL agreed on a date for the roommate to move out. If she was going to have a problem with having this friend there for a long period of time, she should have spoken up when he moved in. I agree that it doesn’t matter what the argument was about. She feels how she feels and no one gets to tell her otherwise BUT that doesn’t give anyone carte blanche to be a bitch. I am a woman with my priorities straight, but I don’t tell my boyfriend to make people apologize to me. Or pick fights over a freakin spoon in the sink. Grow the fuck up and deal with your issues yourself. She has issues but people on here will defend a woman like this until they are blue in the face, apparently.

avatar Flake December 7, 2011, 3:02 pm

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is a reasonable amount of time to have a friend live with you and your SO, considering that the initial intent was for you two to live together and only help out your friend for a while?

avatar Flake December 7, 2011, 3:06 pm

And yes, apparently she was wrong when she assumed that “for a while” actually meant for a while, and not for an entire year.

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 3:35 pm

Good god!!

LW NEVER said his friend moving in was temporary. I think the sudden need for a place to live is what is misguiding everyone here to ASSUME it was just a quick fix living situation. Couples have roommates. Newly engaged couples can have someone live with them long term. I swear – it happens!! It’s just another example of people here trying to make their point and NOT READING THE FREAKING LETTER! LW said he asked his fiancee if it was OK if his friend “moved in.” Nowhere does he say it was temporary.

“And yes, apparently she was wrong when she assumed that “for a while” actually meant for a while, and not for an entire year.”

Wha…? SHE doesn’t say anything here. Again, LW just says the friend moved in. Not that he was only going to be there for a month, not that he was planning on living there forever, just that he moved in. Where is the part where you got she assumed it was only for a while????

It’s like people on here create some storyline in their minds and argue off that instead of what is in black and white (or blue) in the actual letter. I’m dumbfounded! Honestly.

avatar lets_be_honest December 7, 2011, 3:40 pm

Uh oh, looks like someone hasn’t seen Wendy’s comment moderation post ;)

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 4:17 pm

LOL – No, I saw it. And the funny thing I almost never comment in here. I’ve been following Wendy since she had her personal blog, but rarely post anything. But today (well, last night when I read this letter) got my goat, I have to admit.

avatar Splash December 7, 2011, 1:46 pm

Ahem. Quote YOU:

“Within three months of him moving in with us, he got laid off. He found another job making significantly less funds, but enough to still pay rent, etc.” This from the orig letter says EXACTLY that he is paying rent.

NO – that says he is making enough TO PAY rent. Nothing says he IS paying. And for that matter, BGM is right – the letter does not specify that he missed paying rent…but it also does not say he DID NOT miss paying rent. I’m totally rolling my eyes – since we are apparently playing the assuming game, it is a 2 way street.

avatar Splash December 7, 2011, 1:47 pm

And actually, the attacks, insults, negativity and condescension that have been just DRIPPING off of a good portion of the comments lately is totally off-putting and is not why I started reading this site. The constant attitudes and lack of respect are getting really old.

avatar Something More December 7, 2011, 2:06 pm

Funny, because your comments aren’t all sunshine and butterflies…

Let’s pretend you are writng a letter and you make a point to say that the person you may be having a problem with makes enough to pay rent. If said person wasn’t paying you rent, wouldn’t you make it a point to say that “he makes enough to pay rent, altho he is living here rent free.” Or “He makes enough to pay rent, but I haven’t been making him pay any.” I mean, LW found the information pertinent enough to touch on in the letter, wouldn’t he included if he wasn’t paying rent as well? Read between the lines.

avatar Splash December 7, 2011, 2:16 pm

My comments don’t have disdain dripping off of every single one of them for how naiive or stupid or misguided everyone else is.

The letter is about the roommate moving out. In that context, all this letter says is that the roommate “makes enough to pay rent” that does not say that he is paying rent. That says he can afford to pay rent. So, in the context of if it is reasonable to make a friend/roommate move out, it really does not matter if he is paying me rent or not. What matters is if he can AFFORD to pay rent – as in pay it somewhere else.

avatar Splash December 7, 2011, 2:18 pm

Additionally, “reading between the lines” means you are assuming. Maybe the space between the lines is empty.

avatar Jiggs December 7, 2011, 1:55 pm

Jesus, sorry we don’t just leap to the conclusion that every woman in every story MUST be a huge nasty bitch because *insert some speculation that’s really reaching, usually “the OP doesn’t EXPLICITLY say that that random thing happened, so it never happened LALALALALA*

avatar ReginaRey December 6, 2011, 3:53 pm

I think the bottom line here is that you’re not ready for marriage. You seem to be swaying whichever way the wind blows. Your fiance says this guy needs to go? OK, he’s going! Your friend says your fiance is controlling? You freak out and ask “OMG, is she controlling?!” You’re going to go through worse than this in a lifetime with someone. You need your own backbone, your own thoughts, your own opinions. You can’t allow people to take advantage of you. Which is exactly what you’re doing here.

For the record, the fiance has been more than patient, in my opinion. And I don’t think it’s controlling to want someone out of your shared home after more than a YEAR of crashing. I’d have been gone LONG before. I also don’t think it’s controlling for her to give an ultimatum. And you know what else? This ultimatum isn’t just about the living situation. I bet your fiance is seriously questioning right now if you have what it takes to make it through marriage – since you’ve so easily let someone walk all over you. Are you going to put her first? Are you going to be able to recognize her needs and her desires in the relationship? I imagine all of that is running through her mind, and if I were her, I’d be having some serious doubts.

You want to make sure you don’t lose your fiance? You want to prove that her doubts are unfounded, and that this relationship will work? Then find that backbone and tell this dude that the charity is over. She comes first now. And if she doesn’t, then please don’t marry her.

avatar CollegeCat December 6, 2011, 4:00 pm

Exactly if I was the fiancee here i would be sobbing in my wedding dress. Clearly this guy doesn’t love her as much as he thinks he does. This realization probably hurts the fiancee every time she sees the asshole friend eating her cheerios. I am sure he thinks he puts her first but his actions say the exact opposite. After compromising for a year and finding out that the friend is once again staying indefinitely I would have gone off the deep end.

avatar cporoski December 6, 2011, 5:25 pm

I think you guys are being harsh. He has two people he cares about and wants to make everyone happy. That makes him a people pleaser, not un-marry-able. (yea, that isn’t a word). Honestly, reasonable people are taken for granted because they don’t freak out. So his fiancee is being a doormat. Look, my husband and I had major issues with a friend of his (very similar to this but not living with us). They had been friends for 10 years and he had been with me two. He is still trying to balance the relationship with me and the one with his friend.

avatar Fabelle December 7, 2011, 10:57 am

I agree with ReginaRey here. He needs to figure out what HE really thinks of the situation, not just absorb the feelings of his fiancè & roommate & then try to make sense of it (which he’s failing to do anyway). He doesn’t have to choose one over the other, but he has to take a stance. In my opinion, a friend shouldn’t be staying at a couple’s almost-marital home for that amount of time. If it were the fiancè’s out-of-luck girl friend, I’d say the same thing. But other people have different boundries.

My problem is that the questions he’s posing seem a little, um, dense. It doesn’t seem like he even understands why his fiancè would have a problem with this situation. I think RR put it nicely: “I bet your fiance is seriously questioning right now if you have what it takes to make it through marriage – since you’ve so easily let someone walk all over you. Are you going to put her first? Are you going to be able to recognize her needs and her desires in the relationship?” If it showed in his letter that he actually examined these possible feelings, then I would say he & his fiancè just have different ideas of what’s appropriate. But he doesn’t seem to realize ANYTHING. She and your friend get into a tiff, and he goes back and forth between them, taking each at their word. “You need to aplogize because you did this. Wait, you didn’t? Okay hun, he doesn’t need to apoligize.”

And to the LW, I agree your friend is taking advantage of the situation. He sees you leaning one way now, so he appeals to your bro side by complaining about how your fiancè is always calling the shots. She’s your fiancè and she lives in your home. OF COURSE SHE IS. Your friend should understand that HE is the intruder and that both you & your fiancè have done him a huge favor instead of trying to pit you against the woman you supposedly love.

avatar Kerrycontrary December 6, 2011, 3:55 pm

Totally agree with Wendy here! I think your fiance has been very understanding about your friend living with you guys. Your friend has had some tough luck, but that’s how it goes and you’ve helped him out for the past year. And you want to know why your fiance starting complaining about little things with your friend? Because when they had a fight, you took his side, therefor your friend caused a wedge between you and your fiance. Thus your fiance probably doesn’t like your friend very much anymore and little things annoy her. It’s never about what it’s about. So she complains about the spoon in the sink rather than the fact that you chose his side of the story over hers. You just need to man up and tell your friend to leave.

avatar ReginaRey December 6, 2011, 3:59 pm

Second the “It’s not about what you think it’s about” statement. Yes, the reason the small things annoy her is because the roommate grates on her. He grates on her because he’s coming between you and her, and because he’s negatively impacting your relationship. That dirty spoon represents everything that annoys her.

Budj Budj December 6, 2011, 3:57 pm

Your fiance got in an argument with him and has wanted him out since then. If you verified that your friends side was true then I think your fiance is out of line. It’s your house…she is a guest there too…you aren’t married yet….I would have no issue helping a friend out like you were (pending the size of my house) and I think I would have resentment for my hypothetical fiance if she was giving me crap about it. Her inability to move on from this when she was wrong (if she was wrong) is also a personality flaw I don’t think I’d have patience for.

If the guys story line checks out then he has had poorly timed misfortunes and if I were you I would let him stick around a little longer.

Now if your fiance has every reason to dislike him and you are ignoring her side of the story without any proof then this complicates things and you need to find your buddy some other place to stay ASAP and apologize for being a dingleberry.

avatar ReginaRey December 6, 2011, 4:02 pm

But does it really matter what they argued about, and who’s side was more accurate?

I think the issue here is the friend’s presence in general. In my mind, the fiance is just annoyed with his presence. Doesn’t matter how nice the guy is, doesn’t matter if he’s not purposefully trying to take advantage of the LW…he’s coming between the LW and the fiance. And THAT, I think, is what’s upsetting the fiance. Things change when you have another person live with you for a whole year, a person who isn’t at all involved in the relationship.

If I were her, I’d resent the lack of privacy and I’d resent my fiance for allowing someone to crash for that long. Charity is great, but a year of it is pushing it, especially when your loyalties and devotions are supposed to be to the relationship…given that you promised to MARRY this person.

avatar ReginaRey December 6, 2011, 4:04 pm

And to echo what CollegeCat just said above…it just seems to reflect that he doesn’t care all that much about the fiance’s needs. Maybe she’s tired of having a third wheel all the time. Maybe she wishes he’d value the relationship, given that it’s leading to marriage, more than the charity-friendship with this guy. I’d be REALLY upset if I thought the guy I was going to marry valued someone else that much more than me (or more than me at all, really). That’s most women for you, I think.

bittergaymark bittergaymark December 6, 2011, 6:22 pm

Actually, it does. If the fiance was totally in the right than I would back her. If it turns out she is 100 percent wrong than, yes, that really does change my entire opinion of the situation. What’s interesting, is that they LW clearly believed the friend over the fiance’… Now why would that be? Gee, I dunno. Perhaps he can tell when she’s lying as he’s seen it before.

Look, the fact that the LW isn’t just dying to defend his maidenfare makes me think that maybe there is much more at work here. It’s an ugly day when you realize that the person you love is actually a deranged and controlling individual. How do I know? Hey, it’s happened to me.

avatar ele4phant December 6, 2011, 8:38 pm

I really do appreciate you arguing an angle that isn’t well represented in the comments. However, I think most people here (including you) are making assumptions on the backstories and motivations for both the friend and fiance. Is she a chronic liar and drama queen? Maybe. Is the friend a total mooch? Well maybe, but the LW doesn’t give us enough info to be sure either way.

What is clear that he is in the middle of two people who don’t like living together, and don’t want to seed ground. Who’s in the right and who’s not is immaterial, the one person who needs to be making the call is the LW. He needs to stand up on his own and make the call. So far it sounds like all he’s done is let himself get pushed back and forth between two strong willed people.

avatar amber December 6, 2011, 4:02 pm

i think if my husband had called me a guest in his house when we lived together and were building a life together i would have been pissed. there is a big difference between a roommate and a fiance.

and i think like many other commenters have said the roommate probably is grating on the nerves of the fiancee. but, if you’re getting married shouldn’t you be talking about asking this guy to move out anyway? and the only other issue i have with letting him stick around longer is that with some people they will always have a story and it may always check out, but at some point you have to say enough is enough.

Budj Budj December 6, 2011, 4:05 pm

They aren’t married yet is why I view it that way. What’s his isn’t hers until they tie the knot.

avatar amber December 6, 2011, 4:07 pm

sorry i meant to add when my husband and i were still engaged, that part didn’t make it in. even if they’re not married yet and still engaged i would be pissed. if you’re living together as an engaged couple, you are more than roommates and you are definitely not a guest in each others home. you are building a life together. so different than a roommate.

avatar ReginaRey December 6, 2011, 4:10 pm

I think marriage is more a state of mind than a state of legal being. So thinking “what’s mine is mine until the day I get married” is kind of an immature way for this LW to be thinking, if that’s how he’s thinking. If you’re engaged, you should be thinking in the marriage state of mind. Which means respecting and honoring the person you promised to spend your life with above others.

theattack theattack December 6, 2011, 4:19 pm

Completely agree with you! An engaged couple should act like a married couple in this respect.

Budj Budj December 6, 2011, 4:27 pm

Maybe everyone gets to that state of mind at certain stages.

I think this says more that they shouldn’t have moved in together before marriage – or – this guy has no idea what the commitment he made was.

Really though I would totally let my fiance’s friend stay, for an extended or indefinite time, if she was respectful of the house and us and I didn’t have babies / children. But even then it’s like free baby sitting…so maybe I would.

avatar ReginaRey December 6, 2011, 4:29 pm

Well I think if you aren’t at that stage when you get engaged, you shouldn’t be getting engaged. And I tend to agree that maybe this LW didn’t realize the commitment he was making in getting engaged to his fiance.

avatar savannah December 6, 2011, 4:15 pm

yeah. legally. But is that how you would want to live? relating to the people you care about by rule of law?

avatar iseeshiny December 6, 2011, 4:19 pm

Sheldon Cooper, anyone?

Budj Budj December 6, 2011, 4:21 pm

No – it is saying – I’m not married yet…we have a contract “to be” married that either of us can still back out on pretty easily.

avatar ReginaRey December 6, 2011, 4:27 pm

So what, then? You get to put other people before the person you’re planning to spend your life with up until the Big Day? You get to value her less than other people, or at least act as if you do? Sorry Budj, normally I agree with you, but I just can’t get on this train. If you’re going to marry someone…you should already be thinking in the marriage frame of mind.

Budj Budj December 6, 2011, 4:31 pm

I guess I just don’t think that it’s so black and white that your fiance trumps everything and everyone in every case. And if that means I’m not cut out for marriage…then I guess that’s ok.

parton_doll parton_doll December 6, 2011, 5:16 pm

I was waiting until the end of this thread to tell you that I agree with you. And I am married by the way. You’re right about the situation not being completely black and white and I don’t think that the LW is obligated to always stand behind his finacee simply because she is his fiancee. I personally think the LW IS being manipulated by both parties and maybe the best thing for him to have done in retrospect is not invite his friend to live with them.

I hadn’t planned on commenting on this post and probably shouldn’t have but … I don’t know … I felt really bad about your comment that you may not be cut out for marriage. I know it was probably written out of frustration but old married chick, statements like this make me sad. Especially since all relationships are unique.

avatar Ktfran December 6, 2011, 5:31 pm

Budj,

You’re cut out for marriage. And when it happens, I’m sure it will be with someone who is as rational and insightful as you seem to be. There are girls out there like that. Who believe in shades of gray and compromise. I promise.

Budj Budj December 7, 2011, 9:11 am

Thanks for the support – both of you above. I just want to clarify that wasn’t a woe is me statement just that I was astonished at the overwhelming disagreement with my opinion.

People don’t have to agree with me, but when I’m the only one disagreeing it can make me wonder if my opinion is crazy. Glad to hear that’s not the case.

avatar amber December 7, 2011, 9:53 am

definitely in no way do i think your opinion makes you not cut out for marriage! everyone obviously has very different opinions on this and i think we all project our own situations on these letters. in my case my now husband and i moved in to his apartment after we were engaged but we both split rent, bills and food. so i guess hearing that i would have been a guest considering those things sort of struck a nerve with me. i was definitely not a guest, i was a partner. like i said though, everyone obviously has very different opinions on this issue!

Budj Budj December 7, 2011, 11:04 am

I can understand that would strike a nerve – it was an apt you were both splitting so you definitely weren’t a guest. I wouldn’t view it that way in that situation. But in this case the LW owns a house.

avatar Riefer December 13, 2011, 5:44 pm

When I got engaged to my husband, I moved into his condo shortly after. I also owned my own condo, which we sold so that we would have a downpayment for a house together. So, was I a guest? A guest who paid the entire downpayment for the house we live in now?

Generally when people get engaged, it’s because they’ve reached the point where they have realized that the other person is so important to them that they want to have that person in their lives forever. That means that by the time you get engaged, you *already* place that person at the top of your priority list. That’s not something that magically happens on your wedding day, it’s something that should have already happened. If it hasn’t, you probably shouldn’t be getting married.

And I think that’s the issue people are seeing with this LW. Unless the fiancee was totally crazy and out in left field, he should be supporting her over his friend. Maybe the argument they had really was “nothing”, but he’s obviously not realizing that the argument is representative of the relationship between his fiancee and his friend, and that it’s not working. Instead, he took his friend’s side after the argument, which told his fiancee that she’s not a priority to him. The LW needs to think about whether he really cares about her enough to marry her.

avatar silver_dragon_girl December 6, 2011, 4:32 pm

I’m with you. In fact, I told my bf just the other day that I don’t think people should get engaged unless they’re ready to get married that same day.

theattack theattack December 6, 2011, 5:48 pm

Yeah, I completely agree with you, RR. I guess it is all about what an engagement means to different people, but I believe an engagement is when the real, deep, 100% commitment begins, not on the wedding day. Sure, you can back out of it easier, but that shouldn’t affect the content of the relationship or commitment. To me, an engagement only exists because you’re planning out the wedding and the moving in and the name changes and stuff. A couple getting engaged should be 100% committed and 100% ready to get married at any given moment (except for all the stuff like wanting your family to be there, etc).

Budj Budj December 6, 2011, 4:03 pm

So I guess I need to know why you chose your friend’s side before I pick a side.

avatar artsygirl December 6, 2011, 5:22 pm

Budj – I am normally in agreement with you but I think you are wrong in this case. Honestly from the sound of the disagreements, there is not ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ side to the story. Rather, it sounds like two personalities who are butting heads and the LW can’t decide who has the more legitimate stance. I am not saying that a spouse should always agree with their partner, but it sounds like the LW has been dismissing his fiancee’s feelings for a long time and now it has come to a head. Something has to give and it should be an easy choice. His friend is not a real tenant while his fiancee is someone he plans to live the rest of his life in a shared space. The LW and his fiancee did not plan to have roommates and therefore were probably not equipped to deal with an interloper into their relationship, especially one that they didn’t both agree on.

caitie_didnt caitie_didn't December 6, 2011, 5:40 pm

yes!!! This isn’t about right or wrong or choosing sides. It’s about building a life and a future together.