- October 9, 2017 at 10:00 pm #722873
Feeling bad about a hookup doesn’t make it non consensual. Calling this assault is a fucking insult to people who have been violated.October 9, 2017 at 10:02 pm #722874
Well, I’m happy with the laws where I live and you’re happy with the laws where you live. Great. Good night.October 9, 2017 at 10:05 pm #722875
Well, at no time, from dancing together, to talking, to being spun around, to kissing, does she ever suggest that she told him to leave or in any way indicated that she wanted him to leave her alone or stop. If she had done any of these things, then he is required not to kiss her or to stop kissing her. It sounds like she kissed him back. That part of what she wrote is a bit garbled, but I read it as she had never danced with or been kissed by a guy before and viewed her lack of experience as a negative and wanted to get some experience, despite the guy being ugly and the race her father ld her she could not date. That is not sexual assault.October 9, 2017 at 10:10 pm #722876
From the article you posted, context matters in Canada, just as it does here. If your rule really was yes-means-yes and that rule applied to kissing, then this guy would have been found guilty.October 9, 2017 at 10:13 pm #722877
When you say ‘consent doesn’t have to be verbal’, what does that even mean. The LW seems to have given non-verbal consent and then worried what her father would think of her kissing a guy of the wrong race. She explains in detail why she didn’t stop him and it has nothing to do with freezing or being caught by surprise — despite finding the guy ugly, she wanted the experience.October 9, 2017 at 10:29 pm #722878
This isn’t unwanted kissing. This us racist regretful kissing. A huge HUGE difference…October 10, 2017 at 12:08 am #722882
Hmm, I’m wondering if RedRover et al are holding onto an unconscious racial bias. That whole line of argument feels so much like the stereotypes that all Black and Hispanic men are lurking around corners, waiting to pounce on unsuspecting white women, and rob them of their purity.
I’d like to point out that:
1. At no time in her story did she state that she felt coerced or forced into kissing him. That was thrown out by the ones emphatically stating that it was an assault. Honestly, if you feel forced into an intimate situation with an unknown man who repulses you, your fight or flight instincts would kick in. At the very least, you would involuntarily recoil from him. You wouldn’t lean in to see how the kiss would be.
2. The LW was raised with a very specific type of racism. She wasn’t told to avoid all black people, only black men. That’s literally the same strategy that white plantation owners used to prevent their wives and daughters from getting sexually involved with strapping black bucks. There was a real fear that white women would get involved with black men and start having a bunch of mixed race babies and then overturn the white male patriarchy.
3. The insistence that this young naive white girl was taken advantage of by a sneaky black man is honestly bordering on its own type of racism.
FWIW, I think the LW is in a panic because she’s struggling with how she was raised to believe that all black men are terrible vs. her reality.October 10, 2017 at 4:42 am #722894
Cleo- this is exactly how I feel about the situation, 100%.October 10, 2017 at 4:54 am #722896
I was thinking that too but didn’t want to get into it. RR has also said many times that she’s extremely introverted and avoids social situations, so that’s part of it too. I asked a few times whether these ladies have ever been clubbing and no answer, so I think they’re truly missing the fact that everyone goes to the club to hook up, and if you’re not looking to hook up, you either don’t go or you have a strategy.
And that all of this behavior is typical in the club context. No one answered me re: whether their dates always asked for a kiss either. That last part makes me think, ok, so why is this any different? Which suggests unconscious racial bias, yes.October 10, 2017 at 4:57 am #722897
And I’m sure I have my own unconscious racial biases, I’m acknowledging it, so let’s not go right there, it’s not the point.October 10, 2017 at 5:00 am #722898
Also what Ron wrote at 10:13.October 10, 2017 at 5:24 am #722899
One other thing about clubs though: there are bouncers, security cameras, and there are typically cops nearby. If you do get assaulted, there’s help available. It is NOT true that anyone can just do anything they want to you. My friend got assaulted at a club this past summer. A friend went and got a cop, the video was pulled, and there was apparently no question in anyone’s mind. The guy had already left, but his identity is known and my friend is pursuing it.
If this tape were to be pulled, what would it show? An underage girl accepting a shot, then on the way back to the dance floor stopping to dance with a guy who grabbed her hand to get her attention (again, you can’t verbally get anyone’s attention in a club), dancing and talking with him for a bit, making out briefly, then stopping and walking away before handing him a phone number. No resistance to that on his part, no trying to stop her or pull her in again. No force. And again, this is an extremely high volume dance floor situation. The way you communicate is by touch. Turning her toward him is not weird. Neither is not screaming 3 times, “can I kiss you????” This was not a wedding. It was not a bar with some live music and a dance floor. It was a dance club, where people go to dance close and hook up.