October 9, 2017 at 12:34 pm #722707
She didn’t know that things like this could happen. It isn’t her fault that her parents raised her to be naive. She walked in thinking she would hang out with her friends, not drink and maybe dance. It didn’t occur to her that the evening could include being grabbed and kissed without consent. It may be naive but it wasn’t in her realm of reality and she froze not knowing what to do. It may be common in the context of a club but it is still assault if it is done without consent. She is left with the emotional baggage of having this done to her while her friends watched and did nothing to help.October 9, 2017 at 12:35 pm #722708
I think assault is a difficult term here. I’m not saying she wanted it or asked for it – but it doesn’t sound like she gave ANY signals that she wasn’t into it. If someone holds your hand and you don’t remove your hand – is that assault? If someone dances with you and puts their hands on your tush and you don’t remove them – is that assault. If someone leans in for a kiss and you don’t put your hand up and say no – and they then kiss you – is that assault?
Certain behaviors are not out of bounds in certain environments. As much as I hate being in this corner of the argument – if she said nothing and did nothing, then how would he know it was unwanted? She was awake. She was present. She is not mentally challenged. She has working use of her limbs and speech. She doesn’t indicate that she used any of those – ok, so she froze up. OK. But his behavior is what I consider normal in a club. She is very naive but he can’t know that on the dance floor.October 9, 2017 at 12:40 pm #722709
Yeah, I just don’t see assault if he’s within the bounds of what’s appropriate in a club and she’s kissing him back.October 9, 2017 at 12:43 pm #722710
I find it interesting that because the girl was raised as a racist, somehow it’s OK for a random, much older stranger to grab her and kiss her.
To claim she deserved what she got because she was naive is pretty damn crappy.October 9, 2017 at 12:44 pm #722712
No it’s not, it’s pretty normal and acceptable behavior in a *club,* Northernstar.October 9, 2017 at 12:44 pm #722713
She experienced it as an assault even if the guy assumed it was okay. His intent and her experience are two different things.October 9, 2017 at 12:45 pm #722714
It’s on the person wanting to do sexual stuff to make sure they have consent. If they don’t so that, it’s assault. No different than the rules for getting consent for sex to ensure you’re not raping someone.
I’m not saying she should report it or take him to court. I agree it’s unfortunately common and it would be thrown out and laughed off. What I have a problem with is reinforcing the idea, to someone who doesn’t know better, that this was a hookup she consented to and now regrets, rather than an assault she did not consent to. That’s a dangerous road, IMO.October 9, 2017 at 12:48 pm #722715
She kissed him back, though, Skyblossom. She can believe she was assaulted until the day she dies, and I guess that’s her reality. But he can believe he grabbed a girl’s hand and talked to her for a bit and then they made out, and… he’d be right.October 9, 2017 at 12:50 pm #722716
At no point did I say she deserved to be assaulted – I am saying I would not classify this as assault. Her naivete may have resulted in things happening that she didn’t want – and for that I do feel for her. I really do. But I can’t fault someone for not being a mind reader – and that’s what this girl expected of her dance partner. They were dancing. Google MTV Spring Break and you’ll see that people dance spoon style as the norm. He turned her around and he kissed her. He didn’t just pluck her out of the crowd and plant a kiss. He held her hand. He likely touched her while dancing. This is a script that plays out every night and has been doing so for about 30+ years now. I get that she doesn’t know the script – but he doesn’t know that. She has to own her boundaries.October 9, 2017 at 12:56 pm #722720
This is why “yes means yes” is a thing though. Would you say the same thing about sex? “Well he’s not a mind reader, she never explicitly said no, so he thought it was ok”. That is definitely true, that happens. But the fact is, if one person did not want it, it was rape. It’s on the person taking action to ensure that they have consent.
And I do understand where you’re coming from, the guy thought this was no big deal and that she was into it. That doesn’t make it not assault. He was wrong. The fact is that he did not have consent. She didn’t consent to this. She was too shocked/scared/unsure/whatever to say no. That doesn’t mean the same thing as yes.
Like I said, a dangerous road. This is literally no different from the same consent discussion about PIV sex, but I think people would have way different opinions if he’d had sex with her without her consent. Just because what happened to her is common, doesn’t make it right. Just because it’s “normal” in a club environment, doesn’t mean every woman in there is consenting to having unwanted hands and mouths on her.October 9, 2017 at 1:00 pm #722721
From what she says he was kissing her and she didn’t stop it. She doesn’t say she was kissing back. She then felt guilty for not stopping it. She has never been kissed before and now is trying to figure out why she didn’t stop it and feeling guilty for not stopping it. She doesn’t say she briefly enjoyed it. She says that while it was happening she couldn’t wait for it to be over.
She isn’t just inexperienced. She is very inexperienced. She has never kissed and never danced. She had no way of knowing what she was getting into and no way to be prepared because this was well beyond the realm of her experience. The probability is high that her mixed gender social experience was highly chaperoned church events for teens and sitting in classes at school with boys. If she didn’t date in high school she would be completely inexperienced. Her concern going into the club was that she stay sober. She knew there would be drinking. The rest she didn’t know.October 9, 2017 at 1:12 pm #722722
“I think I was so willing because of the fact that I never receive male attention.”
Willing to what, stand there frozen? If SHE says she thinks she was willing, why wouldn’t he think so?
I hear you, and you’re right, that technically consent is a question and a verbal “yes.” Even so, I don’t really think the guy was wrong here.