Dear Wendy
Dear Wendy

“Why Do Guys Like Lap Dances?”

It’s time again for Shortcuts. For every question, I’ll give my advice in three sentences or less, because sometimes the answer to a person’s question is so obvious and the need to hear it so great, being as clear and frank as possible is simply the best way to go. Today we discuss lap dances, shoplifters, and mack daddies (the moral trifecta!).

Why do some guys get lap dances at strip clubs? Doesn’t that make them too easy? I am talking about guys who can easily get a one-night-stand, occasional hookup, girlfriend or friends with benefits, etc. — not an emotionaly unstable or frustrated guy.

How can some guys get turned on buy a stripper who usually sees him as dollar bills and is not sexualy attracted to him? Shouldn’t he have more self-respect and dignity? It’s kind of pathetic. — Not a Fan

 
You’re assuming that every guy who can “easily get a one-night-stand, occasional hookup, girlfriend or friends with benefits” is emotionally stable and not frustrated, while every guy who enjoys the instant and no-strings-attached gratification of a lap dance isn’t. That logic is about as faulty as arguing that sexual attraction must be mutual in order for a person to be turned on by another. I think many Angelina Jolie and Ryan Gosling fans would dispute that.

The woman I’ve been with for the last thirteen years and have a four-year-old daughter with but haven’t wed just recently started smoking cigarettes again after quitting some nine years ago. She lied for the longest time saying the smoke odor on her clothes wasn’t hers (but it was). Then, of course, I found out she was picked up for shoplifting over a year ago and went to court, but was able to keep it from me right up until she got caught a second time this past July while our daughter was with her. Then, to top it off, she isn’t a book-reader at all but just burned through all three 50 Shades of Grey books as fast as they came out. Since then, I’ve noticed her checking out black men every chance she gets, yet she denies it when I bring it to her attention. We are both white. I’m getting a strange gut-feeling she isn’t being honest with me. She has been seeing a therapist these last few weeks, yet she still denies many things when asked.

What do you think she is up too? — Dazed and Confused

 
I’m not sure what’s she’s up to, besides smoking and shoplifting, but I will say, as someone who tried to read the first 50 Shades of Grey novel, burning through the whole trilogy isn’t exactly the same thing as “book reading.” I’d advise that you and your daughter join your girlfriend in therapy and work through your family issues with the help of a professional.

I have had a man for eight years, but he’s a mack daddy. I’m tired of this life. He talks on the phone with other bitches and it hurts me so much. What should I do? Please help. — Tired of This Life

 
MOA right away and find a guy who only has room in his life for one woman, I mean bitch.

***************

You can follow me on Facebook here and Twitter here.

If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, you can send me your letters at [email protected].

141 comments… add one
  • katie

    katie September 14, 2012, 9:06 am

    oh wow…. just… wow…

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    Amanda September 14, 2012, 9:12 am

    Yikes, I woke up this morning feeling so positive and now, not so much. Thanks LWs!

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  • JK

    JK September 14, 2012, 9:13 am

    Um, LW2 I don´t get why you think reading 50 Shades of Grey made your GF start checking out black guys. And somehow that is as/more important than the shoplifting? WIth your little girl in tow??? WTF?!?

    LW1 and LW3 WWS (and what´s with all the LWs with their “quaint” way of talking lately?)

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    • avatar

      Christy September 14, 2012, 9:58 am

      Haha, seriously. I will admit that I’ve read all three and I’m pretty sure everyone is white, except for her “all Mexican-American” friend named Jose. JSYK.

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 11:59 am

        The only thing I can come up with is that LW thinks the grey comes from white+black??? I don´t know.

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    • avatar

      ChemE September 14, 2012, 11:53 am

      Yeah, I was wondering the same thing lol.

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    • EscapeHatches

      EscapeHatches September 14, 2012, 12:59 pm

      Going out on a limb here, and LW2 is a fake. Someone working out a fantasy of being cuckolded and subjecting us to it…

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  • avatar

    ktfran September 14, 2012, 9:14 am

    Thank you Wendy, for the Friday morning laugh. I needed that.

    And, are these letters for real?

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    • parton_doll

      parton_doll September 14, 2012, 9:46 am

      Usually I am pretty open about people’s problems but at least one of these letters has to be fake. Has to.

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      • avatar

        ktfran September 14, 2012, 9:51 am

        My money is on the last one. Sadly,I think the other two are real.

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  • avatar

    bethany September 14, 2012, 9:21 am

    I’m losing all hope for humanity.

    Please let all 3 letters be fake.

    ps- I didn’t get my newsletter yesterday! Am I the only one?

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    • avatar

      jlyfsh September 14, 2012, 9:24 am

      i said something about being excited yesterday and Wendy let me know it’s just Tuesdays now so she has more time to focus on content for it 🙂

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      • avatar

        ktfran September 14, 2012, 9:26 am

        Ooh, thanks.I was wondering about that too.

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  • Fabelle

    Fabelle September 14, 2012, 9:23 am

    Ohmygod, that 3rd letter. I’m calling it this time–it HAS to be fake. Hasssss to be. (Loved Wendy’s response, though! hahaha)

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  • avatar

    Robin September 14, 2012, 9:24 am

    Thank God for Friday and Dear Wendy. I really needed a laugh today!!!

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  • Fabelle

    Fabelle September 14, 2012, 9:27 am

    Okay, as for the other LWs… #1, I have a feeling you’re asking about one specific guy you’re into, but just can’t fathom why he goes to strip clubs all the time? If you don’t like it, find some other guy. And #2, what are you expecting to hear? “She’s totally fucking a black guy, dude.” Is that what you wanted? Your letter was all over the place. Reading 50 Shades of Grey & checking out other men isn’t on par with repeated shoplifting WHILE WITH your 4-year-old daughter. I’d be much more concerned with the latter.

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  • Just Max

    Just Max September 14, 2012, 9:34 am

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    • avatar

      Taylor September 14, 2012, 9:49 am

      Skimmed the first page, and the letters made me sad!

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  • avatar

    artsygirl September 14, 2012, 9:42 am

    Strippers are eye candy. They are people who are willing and able to juggle various bits of their anatomy in men’s and women’s faces for cash. It is more of a rite of passage for most guys – because honestly unless they are going to a REALLY high end place, they have better at home. So LW1, unless the man you are obliquely referring to is spending every weekend or vast sums of money on strippers it probably isn’t too big of a deal. If you are in a relationship with him and uncomfortable with the practice, you should sit down and talk to him.

    LW2 – your partner is not a stable influence in your daughter’s life. I would speak to a lawyer about getting custody in case the shit hits the fan (probably wouldn’t be too hard considering she took your young child on a shop lifting spree). What you need to decide is, do you want to work it out with this woman? If that is a yes, get thee to therapy with her, if not then start figuring out how to untangle your and your daughter’s lives from her.

    LW3 – no words…

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    • avatar

      cporoski September 14, 2012, 12:12 pm

      Totally agree about #1.

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  • avatar

    Rachel September 14, 2012, 10:35 am

    Wow – good job Wendy, you managed to get a time traveler from 1993 to write the third letter! Mack daddy? I’m thinking there is no other explanation. And now I have Kris Kross in my head…

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    • avatar

      *HmC* September 14, 2012, 11:26 am

      Kriss Kross! Omg I performed to them for my 5th grade talent show, backwards jeans and all. It was wiggidy wiggidy wiggidy wack!

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      • CatsMeow

        CatsMeow September 14, 2012, 11:31 am

        oops, jinx! (I also performed to “Jump” in my 5th grade dance recital).

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      • avatar

        rachel September 14, 2012, 12:04 pm

        You guys were clearly cooler than me 🙂

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    • CatsMeow

      CatsMeow September 14, 2012, 11:30 am

      wiggity wiggity wiggity wack!

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  • avatar

    emmkat September 14, 2012, 10:41 am

    LW1: I’ve never understood why women get so upset about their boyfriends/husbands going to strip clubs (unless, of course, they’re going all the time and spending tons of money on it, or are doing the strippers). If you’re worried about your bf going to a strip club occasionally, you’re probably insecure about some other aspect of the relationship so that you don’t trust him. To paraphrase Howard from The Big Bang Theory, it shouldn’t matter where he gets his motor running as long as he parks in the right garage. And if you really don’t like your bf going to the clubs for whatever reason, you should just talk to him about it in a mature or constructive way. Or go with him once in a while because that can actually be fun!

    LW2: Talk to a lawyer and explore your options about leaving and winning custody of your kid.

    LW3: Um, “mack daddy”? Who actually uses that phrase?

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    • avatar

      *HmC* September 14, 2012, 11:31 am

      “I’ve never understood why women get so upset about their boyfriends/husbands going to strip clubs (unless, of course, they’re going all the time and spending tons of money on it, or are doing the strippers). If you’re worried about your bf going to a strip club occasionally, you’re probably insecure about some other aspect of the relationship so that you don’t trust him”

      I don’t mean to pick on you because a lot of women feel this way, but I really disagree with this sentiment so I’ll offer my perspective.

      I’m not ok with a guy I’m seeing getting lap dances. First of all, lap dances are not dancing, they can be really really intimate, which I think not a lot of girls realize. Second of all, I’m not insecure about my relationships at all. In fact, I’m probably an oddly non-jealous person. Of course, going to strip clubs compulsively would be worse, but even occasionally, I’m not really ok with, and for me it has nothing to do with jealousy or insecurity. Monogamy to me means physical monogamy, and strippers cross that line. If I wouldn’t be ok with a random girl doing it to you, why should I be ok with you seeking it out and paying for it? I almost feel like because guys get pleasure from it, strippers have become this normalized things that girlfriends and wives have to accept, otherwise they are not “cool”. Well fuck that. I’m not afraid you’re going to leave me for a stripper, it’s that the act of getting a lap dance is, in my mind, already crossing a boundary that I”m not comfortable with.

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      • avatar

        *HmC* September 14, 2012, 11:36 am

        And to clarify, if it’s for a bachelor party with a really close friend or something, I’d consider making an exception, but first I’d be sure that my guy and I were on the same page (no lap dances). Thankfully no guy I’ve ever been in a relationship with has thought my stance on this was weird at all, in fact they respected it and had no problem whatsoever. But I’ve never dated a guy that would be super into strippers in the first place… I can’t imagine having much in common with someone that would be to be honest.

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      • avatar

        GatorGirl September 14, 2012, 11:49 am

        “Monogamy to me means physical monogamy, and strippers cross that line.”

        So even just watching isn’t okay with you? No lap dances, no putting money in the undies- Just sitting and watching?

        (Just a question, not judging or disagreeing with you)

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      • avatar

        *HmC* September 14, 2012, 11:54 am

        Well like I said, to go and watch for a bachelor party would probably be ok. Lap dances never ok. But if the guy is going all the time “just to watch” then no, not ok. Honestly it’s never been an issue, every guy I’ve been with has been totally on board (one had even stricter boundaries for himself than I expected), so thankfully I tend to be attracted to guys where this isn’t an issue.

        I just disagree when people try to make this about insecurity. No. To me, that’s like telling me “oh you don’t want your boyfriend to get a hand job from another girl, you’re so insecure!” No, it’s about boundaries, not insecurity. I’d never be with someone in the first place who I didn’t trust.

        Maybe the girls who are too ok with it, against their own gut feelings, are the insecure ones because they’re afraid to set boundaries?

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      • avatar

        emmkat September 14, 2012, 12:01 pm

        I completely respect your opinion even if I disagree with you. I’ve been to strip clubs myself, I’m completely aware of what goes on there, and I just have to say that I don’t really have a problem with it as long as it’s only an occasional thing (i.e. they’re not going multiple times a week every week) and they don’t take it any further. Even a lap dance once in a while doesn’t bother me because I don’t see it as such an intimate thing. The girls are only doing their job, I’m pretty sure most of them have no attraction whatsoever to the guy, and there’s the whole “no touching” rule. But I do know how to set boundaries in my relationships and, for the record, hand jobs from other girls are totally out of the question. I just don’t equate strippers and lap dances with that kind of sexual act.

        My beef is with the girls who freak out and go crazy because their boyfriend wants to go a strip club. If you don’t like the idea and don’t want him to go, that’s fine. But be mature about it and discuss it with him in an adult manner. I have to say, I think you sound like the type of person who can have that type of mature conversation and are able to articulate your reasons in a productive manner. And that’s very cool.

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        *HmC* September 14, 2012, 12:04 pm

        Thanks! Back at ya. And also, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with being ok with it, if that is genuinely where your boundaries are then you’re just built differently than me, and that’s perfectly ok. I just get nervous sometimes that girls who actually AREN’T ok with it pretend to be in order to be appeasing, which is just as bad as flying off the handle and being unreasonable I think.

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      • avatar

        emmkat September 14, 2012, 12:11 pm

        100% agree with your last point.

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      • avatar

        Sarah September 14, 2012, 12:19 pm

        I think that’s why girls who fly off the handle do it. I think they try so hard to be comfortable with what they’re not that it just builds up in them. I once had this married friend who seemed very relaxed about sexual stuff and strip clubs (she did girl on girl porn for a living and her husband constantly hit on other women). But once we were all at a strip club and a stripper made the terrible mistake of fondling her husband’s junk. My friend went baZONKERS and screamed at the her husband and the stripper and ran out of the club.

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      • TaraMonster

        TaraMonster September 14, 2012, 12:44 pm

        That’s interesting because I sort of have the same opinion as you. I actually don’t give a crap if my SO goes to a strip club so long as he doesn’t get a lap dance. I’ve been to strip clubs (accompanied by a stripper actually- and that is a CRAZY fucking story wherein strippers attempt to convince me to change my profession from editor to stripper and I get stranded in the Valley like Cher in the company of an Alaskan seaman, but I digress!) and lap dances are borderline cheating IMO. But looking at naked women at bachelor party here and there? Doesn’t bother me.

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      • avatar

        GatorGirl September 14, 2012, 12:13 pm

        I was just curious. My fiance has never been to a strip club so we’ve never really had to deal with it. We’ve talked about going together but it’s never happened. I don’t think I’d be comfortble with either of us getting a lap dance.

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      • avatar

        Mechie September 14, 2012, 2:22 pm

        Different people have different boundaries I guess. In general, I find the idea of bachelor parties involving strippers offensive (they are not the norm where I come from). I would not be ok with just looking either.

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      • avatar

        Violet September 14, 2012, 3:25 pm

        Having known many ladies in that field, and knowing what goes on at private bachelor parties, I am more comfortable with the man being at the strip club watching strippers than with outcall strippers. I am also not really comfortable with lap dances, but then, I’ve yet to date someone who is comfortable with me getting a man who I find attractive to rub himself on me in a similar fashion, lol.

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        Sarah September 14, 2012, 11:59 am

        Yeah I have to agree. I don’t really have any jealousy and I’m comfortable with the idea of strip clubs as like a bachelor party rarity, but I don’t like the idea of my boyfriend getting a lap dance because its a respect thing to me. Lap dances are so intimate that guys pretty much get to put the stripper’s boob in their mouth and it crosses a physical line. Luckily my boyfriend is very respectful of that and he also wouldn’t be ok with me grabbing some stripper dude’s berries and cream, so we’re on the same level with that.

        If there was a bachelor party, I would be ok with my boyfriend going, but not getting a lap dance. If it was his own bachelor party….well, I’m hoping when the time comes I can convince him and his buddies to go see a classy burlesque show which he’ll like because he loves that vintage pin up girl thing and I like because those girls do not put up with any motherf*cker touching them and his buddies can’t get him a lap dance.

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        *HmC* September 14, 2012, 12:02 pm

        And it’s not just bewbs… women of the world, hear this! Some men intentionally wear thin shorts (like athletic shorts) so that the strippers can discreetly reach up there and… yeah. NOT “dancing”.

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        emmkat September 14, 2012, 12:10 pm

        That’s not a case against strip clubs, strippers, or lap dances, that’s a case against douchebags.

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        *HmC* September 14, 2012, 12:16 pm

        I mean the strippers will sometimes intentionally reach up there… maybe it doesn’t happen in some clubs, but I know a few guys that insist that it does. I don’t have a problem that this happens with anyone- as long as it’s consensual, I don’t care. I even think prostitution should be legal. My issue is with a guy I’m in a relationship doing it. I’m not indicting strippers, strip clubs, or anyone who goes to them.

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      • avatar

        rachel September 14, 2012, 12:13 pm

        um…ew. I’m with emmkat.

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      • avatar

        lemongrass September 14, 2012, 12:08 pm

        Haha, berries and cream! I have to say though my husband encourages me to go see male strippers if I want to (I haven’t). But he doesn’t have a jealous bone in his body and likes it when other guys check me out.

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        Sarah September 14, 2012, 12:26 pm

        Yeah, I mean, I’ve been to a strip club with my boyfriend, and if he wanted to go to like a strip show with his buddies for a good reason I wouldn’t mind and he certainly doesn’t mind when I go to a Gay club and see a TON of dick, but we both know “look with your eyes, not your hands” is kinda the standard we’ve set up.

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        Ms. Curious September 14, 2012, 12:53 pm

        I think there is a state-by-state law misunderstanding thing going on. Some women here are claiming that there is “no touching” in a lap dance, which boggles my mind. Where I live, a lap dance is basically dry humping (men often ejaculate in their pants from the strippers rubbing and grinding). The stripper rubs her breasts and bottom all over the customer, climbs in his lap, rubs him up and down, etc, and the men are typically allowed to touch back (within the stripper’s personal limits).

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        Violet September 14, 2012, 3:34 pm

        So true, Ms. Curious.

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      • Fabelle

        Fabelle September 14, 2012, 12:46 pm

        HmC, I’m with you on this– I would not be okay with my man having his dick all grinded up on. I mean, unless somebody is cool with this type of contact in ANY OTHER situation, I’m not sure why strip clubs are the exception.

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      • Fabelle

        Fabelle September 14, 2012, 12:48 pm

        And for the record, I’d GO WITH my boyfriend to a strip club, and if it’s for a bachelor party or something, don’t mind if he’s there in the presence of strippers– but lap dances involve bodily contact that I’m not comfortable with my S/O having with anyone other than me.

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        Mechie September 14, 2012, 5:35 pm

        “If you’re worried about your bf going to a strip club occasionally, you’re probably insecure about some other aspect of the relationship so that you don’t trust him.”

        I disagree with this. Do I think that my partner checking out other attractive women is ok, and even completely natural? Yes, absolutely. Do I think he needs to go out of his way to look at attractive, even naked women, and pay for that? Absolutely not. I don’t this has anything to do with being insecure, it has to do with what you’re comfortable with, and what you find acceptable. And the limit for what is acceptable, and what is within the zone of what you’re comfortable with, varies for people. I don’t think people should be judged or shamed for where they choose to draw the line.

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      Ms. Curious September 14, 2012, 12:44 pm

      I honestly don’t understand why monogamous women make an exception for strippers. Let me put out a hypothetical:
      Let’s say your boyfriend/husband/partner/whatever went out to a regular old nightclub alone. Lots of sexy, scantily clad women are dancing seductively around him started hitting on him. He enjoyed this attention and was sexually attracted to these strangers. One by one, he found a private place with these women. They stripped naked and started rubbing all over him, nuzzling his crotch and sliding their bare bottoms, breasts, and crotch all over his lap and chest and face. He’s petting them and happily enjoying their company, aroused. Is this okay with you? Or is this cheating?
      Now, what if he PAID these women to do that? Suddenly, that makes it okay? The fact that he went out of his way to go to this women and give them money and commission them to do this somehow makes it LESS bad? All of a sudden, it ISN’T breaking the “rules” of exclusivity? I don’t get the “logic”.
      If your relationship is on the open side, I see how this would be fine with you. But if you wouldn’t want your partner fooling around with strange naked women for free, why are you okay with him paying for? I’m honestly perplexed.

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      • katie

        katie September 14, 2012, 2:07 pm

        god is that really what lapdances are like?

        i need to get to a strip club and educate myself before my boyfriend is asked to go to one… lol

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      • theattack

        theattack September 14, 2012, 2:55 pm

        My fiance had to go to a strip club to conduct an investigation for one of his cases, and the coworker that went with him got a lapdance. The girl apparently pulled aside her thong, bent over in front of him, and pushed her exposed vulva up into his face. That happened back when I was much more okay with him going to strip clubs. After hearing about that, I’m not nearly as comfortable with it anymore.

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      • avatar

        Lindsay September 14, 2012, 3:05 pm

        Yeah, that’s my thing. I wouldn’t want my boyfriend to engage in sexual touching with another woman, assuming we are monogamous. It doesn’t matter if he knows her or if it’s her job or whatever. Maybe if you’re only worried about emotions being involves or the idea of him leaving you for another women, then a lap dance would be OK with you (or some women just don’t care anyway, which is fine for them).

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      • becboo84

        BecBoo84 September 14, 2012, 4:20 pm

        I think your view of strip clubs might be a bit skewed. At least in my area, there’s a look but don’t touch policy, even when it comes to lap dances. This description would not be happening: “They stripped naked and started rubbing all over him, nuzzling his crotch and sliding their bare bottoms, breasts, and crotch all over his lap and chest and face. He’s petting them and happily enjoying their company, aroused.” This isn’t really an argument for or against them, just a clarification. In fact, I believe touching in strip clubs is actually against the law in IL.

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      • theattack

        theattack September 14, 2012, 4:26 pm

        It should be noted that strip clubs don’t always follow these rules, especially not in private rooms, and especially when the place is pretty sleazy. But yeah, the no touching rule is definitely not everywhere.

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      • avatar

        Ms. Curious September 16, 2012, 3:32 pm

        I posted something above about this. Where I live (Ohio), lap dances are basically “dry humping”. I used to go to them a lot with guy friends when I was single (I’m a bisexual female) and I was a waitress in one for a while in when I was a crazy 19 year-old, so my views of them definitely aren’t “skewed”. I personally don’t know any man who would pay for a lap dance if there was no touching.

        I know the laws vary state-to-state, but I do also want to point out that these laws really aren’t enforced. I’ll bet if you went to a busy strip joint this weekend, you’d see an awful lot of very intimate touching.

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      • avatar

        emmkat September 14, 2012, 5:04 pm

        There’s a difference between the Gentlemen’s Club downtown and the Pink Pussycat Club out by the airport.

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  • avatar

    lemongrass September 14, 2012, 10:53 am

    First of all, I am now changing my husband’s name in my phone from “big stud” to “mack daddy.”

    Secondly, there is really a difference between a young guy going to the strippers with his friends and a middle-aged guy who goes at 7pm on a wednesday night to get lap dances. Pick some boundaries, lady! If you don’t like that then say so and find someone else.

    I didn’t really care much before we were married if my husband went to go see strippers with his friends. I knew it wasn’t really his thing but some of his friends/work buddies wanted to go and get a beer there and he would go too. Now though I’m not really okay with it but if it’s for a bachelor party then it’s not a big deal. BTW- I figured I would feel this way when we were engaged and told him THEN that my feelings might change. I would have never been okay with lap dances though, which is okay because he only had one once at 19 to see what it was all about. Apparently it’s awkward.

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  • Lianne

    Lianne September 14, 2012, 11:05 am

    I am still laughing at the last question and answer. People are such good sources of a good laugh. How did she even write that her “man” is a “mack daddy” with a straight face?!

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  • avatar

    Anna September 14, 2012, 11:16 am

    Oh my Lord…these letters made me lol and sigh in exasperation at the same time. But when you get letters like this, you kinda have to comment.

    LW1 – Not all guys are into strippers. My ex was invited out to a strip club by at least one buddy I was aware of, and he chose not to go because it’s a stupid waste of money. I really didn’t care if he went or not; if he goes out that means I have a great excuse for a random girls’ night! Yes, everyone should have enough dignity and self-respect to seek affection from more genuine sources but we don’t live in a perfect world so to each his/her own! It works out well for the strippers too because they get to pay their rent and buy groceries. It’s a mutually beneficial business arrangement.

    LW2 – Cigarette smoking is gross, but a lot of adults do it. As her partner, you have the right to ask her to stop but you do not have the right to order her to stop. In a relationship, you have to pick your battles. I would be far more concerned about the shoplifting, especially with your child present! That is seriously messed up. She is not being a good example to your child, and that is a legitimate concern for you to express. You should join her in therapy specifically to talk about that.

    Now, what you said about her reading Fifty Shades and supposedly checking out black men…now you’re starting to sound a little crazy and possessive. I think your mind is making shit up. I’ve read the entire Fifty Shades series because it’s a hot read. Enjoying erotic literature is just about enjoying “me time.” You mean to tell me you never watch porn or fantasize about other women? And when you’re out in public and you see an attractive woman, I bet you quickly look away because it would be inappropriate to check her out? I’m betting not. Stop accusing her of infidelity unless you come up with some solid evidence.

    Here’s an idea, buddy. Maybe this woman would be more devoted to you if you were more devoted to her. You’ve been together for 13 years and she gave you a child for Christ’s sakes! If she wants to get married, why didn’t you man up a long time ago when she was still in gung-ho “make him my husband” mode and probably doing everything for you? I can see it from her POV because I was the “fake wife” for 8 years. Do you have any idea how frustrating/demeaning it is when a man conveys to you every single day that you are good enough to do everything a wife would do for him but you’re not good enough to officially hold the title? Eventually it does make your “give a shit factor” dwindle to nothing. If you love this woman and she wants to get married (adding that in there because you didn’t say if that was one of her goals), either stop being an ass and propose already or break up with her so she can find someone who does want to get married.

    LW3: Really? Dude. REALLY? *facepalm*

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    • FireStar

      FireStar September 14, 2012, 12:14 pm

      We don’t know the shoplifter wants to be married. I know it isn’t true for you but some people are cool in their unwedded bliss…or in the LW2’s case unwedded hot mess.

      Reply Link
    • JK

      JK September 14, 2012, 12:21 pm

      For starters, not everyone wants to get married. If she did, leaving at some point in the years they´ve been together was always an option (I mean what´s the point in staying with someone who doesn´t want to get married if you do?). She could have proposed.
      But shoplifting because she wants to get married? I just don´t see the relation.

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 12:22 pm

        I think Anna was looking at the part where he is noticing her looking around.

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 12:25 pm

        Oops, I didn´t know I wasn´t allowed to look at hot guys, being married and all. Or is that just a law in the US?
        😛

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      • CatsMeow

        CatsMeow September 14, 2012, 12:29 pm

        Huh? I thought having a ring made you blind to other guys. 😉

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      • theattack

        theattack September 14, 2012, 12:55 pm

        I wonder if she’s checking out other guys right in front of him. Doing it on her own time or with her girlfriends – totally fine. She should absolutely take in all the eye candy she wants. Doing it in front of him so that he notices – rude and disrespectful to his feelings.

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      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 2:55 pm

        that was what I was thinking

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      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 2:54 pm

        No, it isn’t about looking. It is about it being so blatant that a guy notices. Most guys I know are totally oblivious. So for him to notice means that this is pretty blatant.

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      • avatar

        Anna September 14, 2012, 1:19 pm

        I realize that, and that is why I said “IF she wants to get married.” It seems like a logical reason for the changes in her behavior, at least from the perspective of a woman who has been in that kind of situation. When she began to date him and had high hopes for the relationship, maybe she decided at that time to stop smoking/not do anything illegal and be the best person she could be so that the LW would be proud to be with her and want to make it official forever. After waiting, waiting, waiting, having his kid, and waiting another 4 years after that, I imagine she would be sick of it and kinda over his shit. Hence, going back to old habits from single life like smoking/random crime sprees and checking out/fantasizing about other guys. Fantasizing isn’t cheating but there is a difference between a harmless crush that you would never act on and actively trolling for new dick when you’re with your man. The new/old behaviors popping up suddenly really made me think she’s at least starting to check out of this relationship so she doesn’t give a shit what he thinks anymore. This relationship really may be beyond saving.

        And seriously, who actually proposes to a guy? I know Pink did but I don’t know anyone in real life who is that ballsy. Anyone here ever propose to a guy?

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 1:27 pm

        You really find that logical??? Yo¿u dont even know that she used to shoplift before meeting this guy. ANd what, women are supposed to be on their best behaviour to get engaged? And then fake it for the rest of their lives? or once they have the magical ring they can do whatever they want, and the guy has to suck it up?

        I get that you feel identified because you waited so long for your ex, but that doesnt ean everyone feels the same as you.

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      • avatar

        Anna September 14, 2012, 1:50 pm

        No, I don’t know that for sure, it’s just a theory. You really think nobody on earth changes or tones down their “bad” habits that their partner doesn’t like when they’re in a relationship? If you love someone and they are asking you sincerely to please stop smoking, you will probably at least consider doing it for them. If you used to go to the casino every weekend as a single guy or gal and play blackjack til all hours of the night, you will probably reconsider that if you find a life partner that doesn’t approve of it. Relationships are about give and take, and we inevitably change when we spend the majority of our time coupled up with one person. But if your feelings for that person change, it will be that much easier to go back to your old single person habits because their happiness was your motivation for making changes in your life that you might not have otherwise chosen.

        I know everyone’s not like me but you can’t even admit that my theory is possible? I bet there are lots of women out there who feel the way I felt. I approached this question from a simple cause and effect point of view. When they started dating, she stopped smoking and only had eyes for him. Years later, after dating for over a decade and having a kid, she reverts back to those pre-LW behaviors. Why? Well, the first question to answer is why she stopped in the first place, which is obviously because of her feelings for the LW. Without those strong feelings to ground her, she’s going crazy with the single girl behaviors of yesteryear. And what would cause her feelings for him to change? It seems likely that spending 13 years with someone who won’t even call you his girlfriend or partner after you had a kid together would change your feelings.

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      • Lili

        Lili September 14, 2012, 2:05 pm

        But, changing yourself in order to have someone like you is problematic as a whole. I hope thats clear. And I think the world would be a much better place if people accepted themselves as they are, and found partners who they could share their hobbies with. If going to the casino is that much a part of your life, find someone who wants to sit next to you. If you’re a smoker who has no desire to quit, date someone ok with it. I find it sad and disheartening people think they won’t ‘revert back’ if the relationship progresses as they wish. How can it? The person who the other partner fell in love wasn’t a real person. It was a normal human hiding their ‘real self’ in order to be liked, but keeping up the facade can’t last forever.

        Oh and I totally disagree that ‘feelings for someone else can ground someone’ NO, if a person wants to be grounded, they should get themselves to therapy and find it within.

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      • katie

        katie September 14, 2012, 2:11 pm

        didnt jk quote dr suess last week… something about finding someone who’s weirdness meshes with your weirdness and you live happily being weird together?

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 2:12 pm

        I love that quote. (And I love that you remembered :))

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      • theattack

        theattack September 14, 2012, 3:10 pm

        I agree with you totally, Lili. And Anna, I can see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think it’s that extreme. It would be okay for a person to tone down some smaller things in their life for a partner, but it seems disingenuous to make a complete change in something so extreme. People stop and start things all the time to be a better person for their partner, and that’s kind of what we’re looking for in some ways: someone who makes us want to be the best versions of ourselves. But ideally we shouldn’t look for someone who makes us want to change ourselves. Examples: My fiance has started making the bed since we’ve been together, and since we’ve moved in together he’s stopped chopping fruit with a machete mid-air indoors. I’ve stopped leaving the dryer running when I leave the apartment because it makes him nervous, and I’ve started exercising. Those things don’t change who we are. They change things that we do within who we already are. When you’re in a good relationship, you shouldn’t feel the need to change major parts of what you love or hate. You should find someone who’s either on the same page with you already or learn to respectfully disagree about something.

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      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 3:13 pm

        See, I think we evolve as people over decades in different directions our whole lives. When I was in college, I danced on tables and wore low cut shirts and loved the party lifestyle. I then got a job, and slowly turned late nights into happy hours. I still am a confident, extrovert but young me and old me are totally different creatures.

        I also have friends that grew up too fast and feel like they missed something. They are now suddenly pretending to be club kids. Our lives and experiences are too dynamic to say that we are only one thing our whole lives.

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      • Lili

        Lili September 14, 2012, 3:16 pm

        But you changed FOR YOU. Not in order to make someone like you/love you. At least, I hope it wasn’t!

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      • CatsMeow

        CatsMeow September 14, 2012, 2:05 pm

        Do you really think that if they had gotten married, their relationship would be different now? How would that prevent her from shoplifting and hiding it from him? People can lose respect/attraction/whatever for their partners even if they are married. You still have to work hard at maintaining the relationship, perhaps even more so than when you are dating.

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      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 3:15 pm

        I think the question is more, “why is he only paying attention to this relationship now?”

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      • katie

        katie September 14, 2012, 2:06 pm

        “because their happiness was your motivation for making changes in your life that you might not have otherwise chosen.”

        i feel like this could be taken directly out of 50 shades of grey…

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      • Lili

        Lili September 14, 2012, 2:10 pm

        Katie, I’m gonna spank you and you’re gonna like it…..as christian grey would say amirite?

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      • katie

        katie September 14, 2012, 2:15 pm

        ugh.

        give me a wimpy, poor man who isnt saddled with serious, serious phycological issues over mr. grey/the vampire anyday.

        seriously.

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      • avatar

        *HmC* September 14, 2012, 2:01 pm

        I agree with you JK. Anna I think you are reaching and projecting a little too much of your own situation into this one. I also took issue with this:

        “If she wants to get married, why didn’t you man up a long time ago when she was still in gung-ho “make him my husband” mode and probably doing everything for you?”

        This bothered me for a few reasons. Going into a mode to make someone your husband is… just wrong. Yuck. I mean, that concept goes against everything I believe and value about healthy relationships. And doing everything for someone? Yeah, that’s not how mutual attraction and compatibility work.

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      • Lili

        Lili September 14, 2012, 2:07 pm

        JINX Birthday Twin!!! And happy partying tomorrow. Oh btw, I got in some karaoke LAST night–I love spontaneous weeknights!

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      • avatar

        *HmC* September 14, 2012, 2:14 pm

        Nice. The spontaneous nights are always the most fun, hands down.

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      • katie

        katie September 14, 2012, 1:34 pm

        “maybe she decided at that time to stop smoking/not do anything illegal and be the best person she could be so that the LW would be proud to be with her and want to make it official forever”

        that just sounds very unhealthy to me. like, yea you want to be a good person and look nice and be a good citizen or whatever- but shouldnt you do that just because its the right thing to do? you shouldnt do those things because you want to land a husband. that should just be how you live your life, and then the right guy comes along, he will love you for that. he wont love you putting on a face that you then either have to fake forever more, or stop doing and “let him down”.

        i just feel like thats not how real life works. in real life, you find someone who accepts you for you, i guess shoplifting and all, if thats how you roll, and then the two of you are happy together just being yourselves.

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      • avatar

        bethany September 14, 2012, 2:28 pm

        It really bothers me that people would be in “make him my husband mode”. I’ve been in “Bethany mode” since I met my husband, and couldn’t imagine acting a certain way to get him to marry me!
        To me that just seems really sad, and actually pretty manipulative.

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      • avatar

        rachel September 14, 2012, 2:41 pm

        Yeah…if a guy only wanted to be with some perfect version of me…I don’t think we’d last long. Once he saw my sink full of dirty dishes and learned how long it’s been since I’ve been to the gym, he would be gone, haha.

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 2:43 pm

        But you have to keep up the act until you´re married!!!! Then you can just do whatever you want, of course. Duh.

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      • avatar

        bethany September 14, 2012, 2:49 pm

        I have a hard enough time staying “work appropriate” for 8 hours a day… There’s no way I could keep up an act for more than a day at home! 🙂

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    • avatar

      cporoski September 14, 2012, 12:21 pm

      LW2 – Anna is right. I think you are nervous because you are seeing changes in your relationship all over the place. She is lying to you and picking up old habits. You are also noticing her looking around. Take this as an opportunity to look at your relationship as a whole. depending on where you live, you are now common law married so why not just get married?

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      • avatar

        rachel September 14, 2012, 12:24 pm

        So…the best time to get married is when you can’t even communicate with your girlfriend, think she wants to leave you, and have no idea how she’s spending her time? How does that make any sense?

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      • CatsMeow

        CatsMeow September 14, 2012, 12:32 pm

        Yeah, I don’t really think marriage is going to solve any of their problems. Really what kind of logic is that? “Dear Wendy, my relationship kinda sucks right now.” “I’ve got it! Why don’t you propose!”

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      • katie

        katie September 14, 2012, 12:35 pm

        honestly though, im like 90% sure thats exactly what the LW’s want to hear…

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 12:35 pm

        Thanks for the laugh. And that totally reminded me of Friends (when Chandler says sorry by proposing).

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      • avatar

        Anna September 14, 2012, 1:25 pm

        No, the best time to get married would have been in the prime of their relationship. But it might not be too late if that really is the problem. Maybe she would rein in the craziness again if it meant the LW was actually going to man up and give her a real family.

        Did anyone else notice the simple fact that he referred to this woman as “The woman I’ve been with for the last thirteen years and have a four-year-old daughter with but haven’t wed”? He could have said girlfriend, partner, lover, any number of nouns to describe your life partner with whom you share a child. But he won’t even refer to her as his girlfriend or any other option that indicates that they are in a committed relationship. She’s just the woman who has hung around with him for 13 years and got knocked up with his kid. That reference made it seem like it really disrespects her.

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      • avatar

        Anna September 14, 2012, 1:27 pm

        …like HE really disrespects her. Ugh. Please forgive my tired mind; I have been up for roughly 27 hours.

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 1:30 pm

        I find it disrespectful the way you´re talking about it. Why knocked up? It couldnt be that they decided to have a kid? NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO GET MARRIED: And if they do, they look for a partner that does, not wait (and have a kid with) someone that doesn´t.

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      • avatar

        Anna September 14, 2012, 1:57 pm

        Because the LW’s tone when talking about his child’s mother is disrespectful. If they chose to have a child and it was beautiful and planned, he wouldn’t have referred to her as “The woman I’ve been with for the last thirteen years and have a four-year-old daughter with but haven’t wed.” She would be his muse, his girlfriend, his partner, his soulmate, his daughter’s beautiful mother…any description that indicates that he loves her and wanted to have a child with her.

        And if everyone who wanted to get married only dated other people who wanted to get married, Wendy would be out of business. Seriously how many letters do we see about people disagreeing with their SO’s on marriage or children?

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 2:03 pm

        Ipve been with my husband for nearly 10 years, we love each other very much. ANd if I heard him calling me his daughters beautiful mother or his muse or something like that I would laugh my ass off, and ask him what he´d been drinking. I get LW could have phrased it differently, but I think your suggestions ar e a bit too much.
        ANd i you want to get married yes, you should look for someone that feels likewise. Like LW yesterday that wanted kids when the guy didnt. When you realize (after a little while) that you´re not on the same page, you MOA. NOt hang on hoping against all hope that the guy will change. PEOPLE DON´T CHANGE.

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      • avatar

        Addie Pray September 14, 2012, 2:29 pm

        I dunno, I’ve changed. Now that I’m in lurve and all, I like the word “hubby”, calling my lovah “baby”, cats, poetry, sweet nothings, the phrase “making love,” and Celine Dion.

        Kidding, all that shit still sucks! I can’t be changed! But, I do like sweet nothings.

        TGIF, EVERYONE!

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      • avatar

        bethany September 14, 2012, 2:32 pm

        JK- You’re on a roll lately!

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      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 3:03 pm

        Right, but I am guessing, when your husband refers to you in public, he says “my wife” not “the woman I’ve been with who I have a kid with”. Also, people don’t change but as they get older, they do wake up sometimes. I think this woman with the kid was in a stale, go through the motions relationship. Something set a spark in her that made her start doing daring things. She is going through some sort of adventure seeking phase. I am going to bet that some new guy lit that spark

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      • avatar

        ele4phant September 14, 2012, 4:41 pm

        I don’t think its disrespectful, just…exact and descriptive.

        I mean, what is she to him? She’s not his wife, so that’s not the right term. Maybe he’s one of those people who finds girlfriend/boyfriend too high schoolish. Maybe he’s one of those people who finds “life partner” icky and obnoxious. And muse? I have not heard anyone use that term. What if he has a special pet name for her? Ew, pet names are better in private. His “daughter’s beautiful mother”, I mean, come on, he’s not an author of romance novels.

        Fact is, she IS the women he is with. They DID have a child together. They have not gotten married. Its the truth, its not disrespectful. If he called her his baby mama, or his ho, or something like that, I’d agree those are disrespectful.

        But the way its been phrased, that’s just what they have together.

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      • avatar

        temperance September 16, 2012, 3:50 pm

        It took me a really long time, like months, to figure out that some people are still with their daughter’s mother or what have you when they use that term. It confused the hell out of me when I first moved out here becuase it’s just not a thing in Scranton to call your significant other that. They are either your wife, girlfriend, or ex. lol

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      • avatar

        rachel September 16, 2012, 4:21 pm

        Temperance – are you from Scranton? I grew up in the WB!

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      • avatar

        Caris September 14, 2012, 1:50 pm

        She could have prevented getting pregnant/terminate the pregnancy/put the kid up for adoption if she didn’t want the kid. Maybe they both wanted to have a kid and decided to do it. Maybe it was an ‘accident’ and they decided to keep it. She is just as responsible for getting knocked up as he is. And maybe SHE is the one who doesn’t want to get married to him. Maybe they both agreed on not getting married because they don’t believe in it. Maybe, you should just not shoplift at all and not just to make a guy like you.

        And if she is acting crazy because she wants to get married then she should just tell him she wants to get married instead of going around shoplifting with their lil’ girl in tow.

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 1:53 pm

        Bien ahi. 😉

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      • avatar

        Addie Pray September 14, 2012, 2:31 pm

        does “bien ahi” mean “good tuna”? i’m basically fluent in spanish.

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 2:33 pm

        Amazing!!! If that lawyer thing doesn´t work out you should totally get a job as a translator.

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      • avatar

        rachel September 14, 2012, 2:34 pm

        Sounds like it to me. I like tuna.

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      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 2:57 pm

        no, i meant this at. looking at your 13 year relationship, why have you never gotten married. why wasn’t this relationship noticed before the drastic changes?

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      • avatar

        Nadine September 14, 2012, 2:38 pm

        “you are now common law married so why not just get married? ”

        Huh? If people are common law married, surely thats more of a reason to not bother??

        You are already x so why not be x?

        Anyway, some people really want to be common law married, not real married. I went to a civil union a few days ago between a man and woman who had to make it “official” for legal reasons, but really didnt want to. They have been together for over seven years. Thats more real to me than marriages between people who have only just met. Lots of people think this way, marriage is just not a solution (or indeed, an option) for so many people.

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      • avatar

        cporoski September 14, 2012, 2:53 pm

        My point wasn’t “go get married”. It was, why haven’t you before this point? Thier relationship has taken a drastic turn. what is causing this shift. I think she is acting erracticly and pulling away. This is all new and he is freaking out. so I am asking, why has he not worked on this earlier.

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      • avatar

        Nadine September 14, 2012, 2:58 pm

        Because for some (lots of) people, suggesting they should have gotten married is just laughable?
        I know loads of unmarried, comitted couples. If they have problems, it is ridiculous to say that getting married would have changed things. I think marriage is great, but I seriously doubt it has the power to take problems away and gloss over the messy parts of life like crminal activity, and smoking.

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  • bittergaymark

    Bittergaymark September 14, 2012, 11:22 am

    LW2. Just wait till she reads 50 Shades Of Black.

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    MissDre September 14, 2012, 11:31 am

    Are there black guys in 50 shades of grey? If yes then I might read it after all 😉

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    MellaJade September 14, 2012, 11:42 am

    HAHA! That last one was great – thanks Wendy. There is no way that could be a real person. What the heck is a ‘Mack Daddy’ anyway???????

    Reply Link
    • FireStar

      FireStar September 14, 2012, 11:57 am

      Anyone still calling himself a mack daddy is guaranteed the oldest guy in the club. His hair is slicked back, he’ll be wearing a mesh shirt and either owns a Members Only jacket or a Shaft leather coat.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      Sarah September 14, 2012, 12:00 pm

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      lemongrass September 14, 2012, 12:02 pm

      Think ‘Right Said Fred.’ Youtube it

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        lemongrass September 14, 2012, 6:17 pm

        Really? Has no one looked up ‘I’m too sexy’ on youtube? Just me? Well, okay.

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      • JK

        JK September 14, 2012, 6:19 pm

        I didn´t have to! I totally remember that song from when it first came out. 🙂

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  • TaraMonster

    TaraMonster September 14, 2012, 10:47 am

    OMG a white woman checking out a black guy????!!!!! Heaven forbid! Must be that smutty smut stuff she’s reading in 50 Shades of Grey! Must be she’s lying to you about being attracted to white guys. Do you think she’s checking out black guys AND shoplifting AT THE SAME TIME?!

    LW2- do you think maybe I time traveled to 2011 to read 50 Shades of Grey before I met my boyfriend 8 years ago? Because I’m trying to figure out why I was attracted to a black guy. Please help me with your expert logic and insight.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      Anonymous September 14, 2012, 11:29 am

      LOL! I was actually thinking the same thing.

      Reply Link
    • theattack

      theattack September 14, 2012, 12:52 pm

      I bet she’s been shoplifting black-guy magazines and pornos.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      Caris September 14, 2012, 1:38 pm

      Why can’t I like this more than once?!

      lol

      Reply Link
    • katie

      katie September 14, 2012, 1:50 pm

      PREACH, girl… PREACH.

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    MiMi September 14, 2012, 12:36 pm

    I’m afraid I had to look it up:
    “Mack Daddy – A pimpalicous man who gets anything he wants.”
    now I need to go look up pimpalicious..

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    Sarah September 14, 2012, 12:49 pm

    So, seeing as we’re talking about 50 Shades of Grey (albeit in a creepy way, LW #2, looking at you) I though I’d put a link up of an author who does the FUNNIEST recaps of 50 Shades ever. I haven’t even read the books, but these are hilarious. If your work will let you go to the page, (you have to accept a blogger content warning) then take a look at them because OMG they are so funny.

    http://jenniferarmintrout.blogspot.com/p/jen-reads-50-shades-of-grey.html?zx=b01528a195c31efa

    Also, what would be everybody’s signature stripper song? I used to think it would be like a Devo song for hipster stripper cred but now that I linked that Sir Mix-A-Lot song I think I’ve changed it to “Baby got Back”.

    Reply Link
    • JK

      JK September 14, 2012, 12:51 pm

      Def Leppard!!!! Pour some Sugar on Me makes me want to tear all my clothes off haha.

      Reply Link
      • theattack

        theattack September 14, 2012, 12:58 pm

        That’s mine too, JK! I can’t even listen to it in the car without getting a little wild. I think it’s my fiance’s new favorite song! haha

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    • CatsMeow

      CatsMeow September 14, 2012, 1:01 pm

      hahaha Warrant. Cherry Pie.

      Reply Link
    • katie

      katie September 14, 2012, 4:31 pm

      sarah- thanks for these… so awesome. lol

      i committed a crime of passion at the library and read it (it was just sitting there on the shelf!! SHUT UP!!) and she does a great job… haha

      Reply Link
  • Fabelle

    Fabelle September 14, 2012, 12:52 pm

    I was actually assuming Mack Daddy meant, like, an actual pimp. As in– pimping is his job & all the “bitches” he talks to on the phone are his business, & she’s just sick of it. So this is actually reassuring! He’s just cheating on her, not running a brothel 😉

    Reply Link
    • katie

      katie September 14, 2012, 1:27 pm

      youre my bottom bitch!!

      haha

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    Caris September 14, 2012, 1:36 pm

    MOA right away and find a guy who only has room in his life for one woman, I mean bitch.

    LOL

    LW2: I am not sure why you had to clarify that the guys she checks out are black. Nothing wrong with black ppl. A lot of wrong with your SO though.

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  • avatar

    SweetPeaG September 14, 2012, 2:46 pm

    I am happy someone is bringing the term “Mack Daddy” back. That is awesome. Sounds like a sad (as in pathetic) situation, but it made me smile. I want to change my user name to MackDaddy… even though I am not a Daddy, nor do I mack.

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    • theattack

      theattack September 14, 2012, 3:15 pm

      I’m still waiting to see SweetPG13!

      Reply Link
  • Brad

    Brad September 16, 2012, 11:37 pm

    I haven’t read through all the comments so this might have been mentioned and I didn’t see it.

    For whatever it’s worth, I am not interested in strip clubs. I have never been to one and I don’t really see myself ever going to one (I’ve had the opportunity a couple of times). I have a few reasons for being against them:

    3. They’re too expensive (or cost more than I’m willing to spend).
    2. I don’t want to keep my hands to myself when there’s a naked woman in front of me and I certainly don’t want her clothes to be off only because I paid for it.
    1. But the biggest reason for me is that I have no way of being 100% certain that those women aren’t victims of traffickers. I will NOT knowingly support any place that’s committing that act of slavery. Sure the odds of me going into one of those clubs is probably not that high, but I live near DC so I know there are some clubs in my area that have trafficked women in them.

    Reply Link

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