Guest columnists and contributors are generously sharing their talents and insights while I’m taking some time to care for my new baby. Today’s letter is answered by columnist and blogger, Billie Criswell.
I’m 42 and six months ago I met a man who’s 47. We’ve both been married once and are looking to settle down with someone. He’s been single for 15 years and has had a number of girlfriends while I’ve only had a few since I divorced two years ago. Everything has been completely wonderful in this first phase of our relationship. We both know what we want in a relationship and are open and honest about our expectations. He is extremely good to me and I, in return, am good to him. The problem is he hangs with a much younger crowd and I hear him say things to female friends on the phone that I find offensive and disrespectful to me, as his girlfriend and partner. I am certain he would be upset if the shoe were on the other foot.
Most recently, some things happened in our lives that made me wonder if he was cheating on me. After talking to my girlfriend at work, she said I “MUST” look at his text messages. She said if he’s cheating, it will be in his phone. Well, I went home and looked on his phone and there was no text messages that looked suspicious. He leaves his phone lying around in the open which I always felt a cheating person would NOT do. Fast forward a week later: I had resigned myself to the fact that he wasn’t cheating and that it was all in my head. Then, one night on a whim while he was in the shower, I decided to peek at his text messages again. I DID find one that was very sketchy to me and it upset me a lot. This woman was calling him “baby” and concluded her text with “I need some loving. Xoxoxo.”
Now, I note in his “friends” circle, he calls everyone “baby,” which does bother me, but it’s something I am willing to overlook. In his defense, I also can see a friend of his saying “I need some loving” meaning a big hug or whatever, even though I find this inappropriate for her to be saying to him. His friends are very affectionate with one another. However, this woman is nearly 50, I do NOT know her at all, and she is NOT in our circle of friends. She lives in an area where he is currently working doing a home remodeling project.
A few nights ago, I approached him about some of his suspicious activity. However, I could not bring myself to tell him I had looked at his text messages. So, I did not bring up this woman. I flat-out asked if he were seeing someone else. He told me he wasn’t, that he wouldn’t do that to me, that he is faithful to me, that he loves me, etc… He didn’t try to smother me with affection as in a guilty way of trying to make me believe his innocence. In fact, he pulled away from me and seemed to be hurt that I had such little trust in him. I felt terrible after confronting him, yet the following day he said he would’ve done the same thing if the tables were turned.
So, my question is this: do I choose to trust him, quit looking on his phone, and take an attitude that ignorance is bliss, OR do I keep looking at his phone and if I find anything concrete, approach him about it? This is the first serious relationship I’ve had since my divorce and I really want it to work. I do love him and he says he loves me and wants to spend his life with me. But I feel I HAVE to be able to trust him completely before moving forward. — Crazy in Love
I like that you point out that your decision to trust him is a choice. You do have a choice here, and it sounds like you are saying you want one thing, but you’re doing another — you need to allow those two concepts to match up and fast. Some prophecies are self-fulfilling, and you are on a path of self-destruction if you keep going at this rate.
First of all, shame on your girlfriend for telling you to look through his text messages! That was horrible advice, but you took it anyway, and then when you didn’t find what you were looking for, you went back again! It sounds like you found something not because there was something to find, but because you wanted to find it.
Maybe she was trying to get “some lovin’” from someone else… maybe they have some type of inside joke. This totally isn’t a situation of “ignorance is bliss” — it doesn’t sound like there is anything to be jealous or angry about. Your suspicions seem a little misplaced and it makes me wonder if you have trust issues in general, or if you have been hurt so terribly in past relationships that you are gun-shy of something good coming your way. Keep in mind, you have to be able to feel worthy of love to accept it.
His reaction to your question of whether or not he was seeing other people also reads as genuine; his feelings were hurt, but then he tried to put himself in your shoes and said that he would feel the same way. Every relationship comes with challenges; if you are with his friends, and he displays this behavior in front of you, it doesn’t seem like he has anything to hide… he isn’t keeping his cell phone a secret, and he seems like an open and honest guy.
In the end, you have to learn to accept people for who and what they are. He’s a guy who is affectionate with his younger group of friends, and that includes kisses and hugs and apparently some strange texts. Either you accept that and have confidence that he is going home with you at the end of the day, or you don’t. It’s your choice.
If it were me, I would choose to trust him and have a little faith. Don’t make drama where it doesn’t exist. Having been through a divorce, are you more likely to be a little jaded when it comes to the dating world? Sure. But don’t let a checkered past color what sounds like an otherwise great relationship.
* Billie Criswell is a columnist and blogger from the “Delaware Seashore.” She loves zumba, bloody marys, and cooking. You can follow her shenanigans at Bossyitalianwife.com.
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KD November 1, 2011, 7:16 am
Spot on. I especially agree with “[finding] something not because there was something to find, but because you wanted to find it”. It’s an easy trap to fall into, but if you can put some of this behind you and chose to put your trust in him, things may fall into place.
PFG-SCR November 1, 2011, 7:46 am
Yes, she has a choice on whether to trust him, but just because she’s having doubts doesn’t automatically mean that she has issues. Some people are more trustworthy than others, and that includes significant others, friends, family members, co-workers, etc. The amount of confidence we place on what an individual person does and says is very much a function of all we know about that person. We can completely trust some people, yet not be so trusting of others. I don’t think the latter is a flaw – it’s just a way to protect ourselves.
Her gut is telling her one thing, but there’s no way for us to know if her gut is misleading her, or if the guy is lying. She doesn’t elaborate on the phone conversations, yet she says she finds them “offensive and disrespectful.” Without knowing more, it’s hard to say whether she’s being unreasonable in her questioning of his behavior. (And while she shouldn’t have snooped through his text messages, not finding anything didn’t give her comfort because she knows – as we all do – that text messages can be deleted.) But, I think it’s naive to just think, “you have suspicions, he told you he wasn’t cheating so it’s all fine.” We really don’t know how trustworthy he is, even though he says he’s not cheating. Cheating and lying go hand in hand.
Maybe it’s nothing, but maybe it’s not. Regardless, his interactions with other women is a concern for her, and she either needs to address it (I’d approach it from what he knows she’s heard – the phone conversations), accept it or decide that she can’t be with a guy who interacts like “that” (in reference to the phone conversations) with other women, even if there’s nothing more behind it.
MiMi November 1, 2011, 8:30 am
I find it extremely difficult to conceive of sending any of my guy friends a message that says “I need some loving” with a bunch of x’s and o’s after it if my “needs” were totally unrelated to him.
If a guy in your circle of friends, who knows you are in a relationship, sent you a text saying “I need to ball! xxoo” what would you conclude?
Let’s stop kidding ourselves that this text was in any way an appropriate expression of friendship.
titian November 1, 2011, 8:38 am
Mimi – I’m with you! I can’t believe that if you found a text message on your bf’s phone from another woman saying “I need some lovin'” that you wouldn’t think you had anything to worry about and no reason to be jealous or angry. Who really talks like that to a platonic friend?
caitie_didn't November 1, 2011, 8:55 am
Especially a grown-ass man. I can see maybe doing that as a running joke or something when you’re in your teens or early twenties. But this guy’s almost 50- he realllllly should have outgrown behaviour like that by now.
Also, I don’t know the LW’s history- maybe she has had bad experiences in the past and is jaded or a poor judge of character or has a tendency to imagine drama where none exists. But your gut is seldom wrong about stuff like this. If she’s getting that weird, nagging feeling in her stomach, I think she should pay attention to it (not act on it yet, necessarily, but really pay attention to what sets it off).
bethany November 1, 2011, 9:12 am
I’m with you! This is totally shady. What 50 year old woman says that stuff to a friend??
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 9:21 am
What fifty year old woman actually STILL wants sex? I kid, I kid… But after all the advice columns I’ve read over the years endlessly detailing how oh-so-many women eventually lose all interest while men remain crazed horndogs till the bitter end the fact that so many on here now just assume that this semi-hot mama is desperate to seduce her colleague and friend is truly the most surprising thing about this letter.
PFG-SCR November 1, 2011, 9:45 am
Silly BGM, women only lose interest in sex _after_ they’ve landed the guy.
I kid, I kid! 😉
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 10:05 am
Curiously…now that I think on it, that DOES appear to be the pattern in all those letters, PFG-SCR.
melanie November 1, 2011, 10:58 am
Unfortunately, isn’t that how human nature works? You lose interest in something you already have. I think both males and females have a tendency of this pattern. It’s a bummer, really.
Sue Jones November 1, 2011, 11:04 am
Silly BGM! Women only lose interest in sex after age 50 when the man gets a big belly, goes bald, snores, farts in bed constantly and leaves his dirty socks and underwear around the house constantly. I kid! I kid!
JK November 1, 2011, 11:29 am
My husband has done all of those things at 36, and I still can´t get enough!!! 😉
moonflowers November 2, 2011, 1:27 pm
Farting in bed alone is a turnoff! I hate it when I raise the sheets a bit and the gas goes zooming straight up to my nose.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:26 pm
Bethany,
The woman that said this to him was an old girlfriend who cheated on him while they were dating. He’s had several girlfriends who were cheats.
ARK November 1, 2011, 8:58 pm
For what it’s worth, I am an almost 50 year old man and I have a platonic female friend (and it’s very definitely platonic) only a few years younger who ends all her texts and phone conversations with me with “I love you”. This took a little getting used to and I’ve wondered how any girlfriend I might have in the future (I don’t have one now) will take it. Also, it seems like a lot of women (although admittedly mostly younger ones) throw around “xoxo” pretty casually in their texts. So I don’t necessarily think those words in a text are the equivalent to a smoking gun.
Also, I agree with the comments below that just because she is flirting with him (or trying to) doesn’t mean he is cheating with her. I’m curious to know what the texts before and after this one said (since LW looked she should know). The fact that she only mentioned this one suggests that they were innocent. Even if he didn’t reply to the text that would suggest to me that he wasn’t interested in playing her game.
SweetPea November 1, 2011, 9:19 am
Thank you!
While he may or may not be physically cheating on her… his flirtatious interactions with other women makes her uncomfortable. She has the right! It doesn’t mean she has “issues”.
I don’t condone searching through texts, but “I need some lovin’ xoxoxo” is a BAD SIGN. I have plenty of guy friends that I text with… we do NOT speak to each other this way. Most people do not. It is clearly flirting, if not more…
She needs to talk to him about what she does and does not feel comfortable with. If they can’t come to some sort of understanding then it may be time to part ways…
PFG-SCR November 1, 2011, 9:21 am
Without knowing the context, it’s difficult to determine what her intentions were by sending that text. If it was in response to them talking about some guy she’s going out with that night, it seems less suspicious. If she just sent him that single text, I agree that it seems like she is looking to hook up with him. However, even if that is her intention, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he has the same intention. But, he might, as well.
bethany November 1, 2011, 9:42 am
Good point. If you change the context, it does change the meaning of the text, and without knowing the context, we can’t really judge what the text meant.
TheGirl November 1, 2011, 9:38 am
Her intentions are not the problem. His actions are. So far, nothing has indicated that he acted on her somewhat childish text, so there is no reason to assume he’s cheating. Just because someone flirts with you, it doesn’t mean you are automatically having an affair with them.
Skyblossom November 1, 2011, 10:50 am
He can’t help it if someone from out of the blue flirts with him. He can help it if he chooses a group of friends that constantly flirt with each other. He draws the line that establishes how others behave around him. If the line he drew was too relaxed for the LW then she probably needs to MOA because it’s not going to change and it doesn’t work for her. She can find someone who is a better match.
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 9:03 am
It amazes me how so many people just immediately feel it is well within their rights to snoop at their significant others cellphones. (How’s that all working out for y’all?) I mean, truthfully, if I was cheating I would simply delete all suspicious texts. (How hard is that?) Frankly, ONE text message isn’t much to go on.
Sure, she could want him. (The coworker — I mean.) But that doesn’t mean he wants her…
Just. Stop. Going. Out. Of. Your. Way. To. Find. Drama…
TheGirl November 1, 2011, 9:44 am
YES. Thank you bittergaymark. Since when did it become the normal to snoop on your significant others??? If you don’t have trust, you don’t have a relationship.
I also agree that just because someone sent HIM a flirty text, it doesn’t mean he cheated. By that rule of assumptions, I’ve apparently had an affair with every construction worker that ever gave me a cat call. Words are just words, it’s actions that count.
rainbow November 1, 2011, 11:53 am
also: snooping as the result of late night solitary paranoia is wrong, but maybe easier to understand. snooping as the result of a brainstorming session between 42 year olds? come on.
Britannia November 1, 2011, 12:23 pm
I agree. What happened to privacy?? I just broke up with a guy who would snoop on my computer and phone EVERY. CHANCE. POSSIBLE. When I confronted him about it, he said that if I didn’t have anything to hide, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Wtf kind of logic is that? Just because you’re in a relationship, you shouldn’t have to share everything.
rainbow November 1, 2011, 1:50 pm
the only guy who ever said that to me tried to set me on fire when i left him. i’m glad you dumped the dickhead before it got out of hand.
CatsMeow November 1, 2011, 2:50 pm
🙁
Britannia November 1, 2011, 3:17 pm
Yeah, the breakup this weekend got really messy. Like, he stole all my cookware and threw my house keys into a muddy ditch and told me to go find them (on my hands and knees, in the dark, when I have a bad back) in the mud because that’s where I belong. He never once disrespected me (besides the snooping) during the relationship, and then he went absolutely psycho when I told him to move out of my house.
Its been my experience that people who snoop, etc tend to go bonkers during the breakup, but that’s an entirely personal-experience-relative conclusion. This last one was the worst of all an I’m never dating someone again who violates my privacy. I don’t want to end up with my house covered in red paint or something in the future.
rainbow November 1, 2011, 3:50 pm
this! the red paint thing! same guy, same day. “FILTHY WHORE” in red marker all over my walls. my landlady hated me so much.
Christy November 3, 2011, 7:36 pm
“Its been my experience that people who snoop, etc tend to go bonkers during the breakup, but that’s an entirely personal-experience-relative conclusion.”
Ditto on this. I had a friend whose wife read his email for a year without his knowledge, and even after he caught her, continued to snoop on his phone and read his Facebook messages constantly. He had to start deleting all of his texts (even though he wasn’t doing anything wrong) just because she had no concept of privacy. She thought it was her “right” to know everything he did. And yes, she was absolutely insane during the divorce.
Grace November 1, 2011, 12:34 pm
How about a 50 year old man with an obvious lack of boundries if he finds it acceptable that a woman send him texts like that? If she wants him she shouldn’t have his cell phone number and be texting him. Overall… its immature and suspicious.
Flake November 1, 2011, 2:28 pm
So now he is responsible for how his acquaintance words her message?? What is ridiculous is a 42 year old woman following really bad advice from her girlfriend, and resorting to juvenile tactics to confirm a “hunch”. At 42 years old, a person should know that communication is an essential part of a relationship. If your SO is doing something that makes you uncomfortable, and you can’t talk to him/her about it, the issue will stay YOUR problem.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:29 pm
Bittergaymark:
You are so right. I posted an update, but what you wrote was spot on. He was NOT responding to her texts and assured me he has absolutely no interest in being with her.
amber November 1, 2011, 9:18 am
I think that you’re missing a step between ignorance is bliss and snooping on him. How about deciding to trust him but not putting blinders on to thinkgs that make you uncomfortable? Obviously you’re both able to have adult conversations about this. So, when something comes up like how he calls everyone baby, maybe instead of looking through his phone for evidence that he’s cheating, talk to him about it. And really your friend who told you to snoop worries me, why do you have to have evidence with which to approach him with? once again when something bothers you, you should be able to talk to him about it. you shouldn’t have to look for evidence to approach him with later.
artsygirl November 1, 2011, 9:27 am
LW – Have you really spoken with your partner about his flirty behavior? I am married to a man that I imagine flirted with the nurses at birth and it gets more pronounced when he drinks. It is part of his nature (he is a middle child) and he just honestly loves people. For a long time, his flirting bothered me because I was insecure. After a few years I spoke with him about it, and he was frankly amazed. He had not realized that his behavior made me uncomfortable and he became a lot of conscience of it. He still flirts, but he makes sure it is always within the realms of my comfort level.
Fabelle November 1, 2011, 9:37 am
My current bf is flirty & I always jokingly point it out to him because he sometimes doesn’t realize. It’s only his mannerisms, though– never what he actually says. I’d only be worried about a flirtatious nature if my partner actually SAID things that could be construed as him hitting on someone else.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:32 pm
Fabelle:
It is my bf’s mannerisms too. We have since talked about boundaries and what we feel committment means. I posted an update below. He has never said anything to a female that I would misconstrue as “hitting on them.”
Ck November 1, 2011, 9:34 am
If you’re not ok with someone’s shady behavior or the fact that he calls his younger (girl) friends “baby,” you absolutely do have a choice…to choose better for yourself and to demand respect from someone. Instead of putting yourself in a position where you’re wary of someone and snooping to find out what they’re up to, put yourself in a situation where you are with someone who treats others with a degree of appropriateness befitting a 40-something.
SweetPea November 1, 2011, 9:53 am
Yes.
Britannia November 1, 2011, 12:26 pm
Yeah, from the way LW describes this man, it seems like he’s mildly mid-life-crisis-y and trying hard to maintain his youth by being “wild”, hence the “baby” and younger crowd. From where I stand, that makes him likely to try other wild things to make him feel young again… such as cheat, especially since he is apparently running with a younger crowd who operates on a different level of intimacy than most people his age.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:35 pm
Britannia:
I believe he is past the mid-life crisis stuff. He is young at heart and looks much younger than his age. He is mature, but enjoys being around youthful friends. We also have older friends as well that we hang out with from time to time. He’s done the whole bar scene and after a while, it does get old. I’ve done the same thing as well. He says he wants to settle down with me. I’ve posted an update below.
leilani November 1, 2011, 9:34 am
Here is what you know: your boyfriend likes to flirt with his friends. The text message doesn’t change anything; its just an example of that. He could be cheating on you, but there isn’t any proof in either direction, and being in a mad hunt for evidence until you find something damning doesn’t sound like a fun way to conduct a relationship (especially if he’s any good at covering his tracks). I think you need to focus on what you know, which is that he says and does things that make you feel disrespected, uncomfortable, and suspicious. If I were you, I would express to him that it hurts you to hear him say things like that, and that you do not think its appropriate. If he’s not willing to change that aspect of his social life and you are unable to accept it, you guys are not a match. It doesn’t necessarily make him a filthy cheater or a bad guy, but you shouldn’t be with someone who regularly makes you feel this way.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:36 pm
Leilani:
I completely agree. I have posted an upate below.
franny November 1, 2011, 9:44 am
I respectfully disagree with Billie. Like so many others, I think that if she has that nagging feeling there may be good reason for it. I was in the same situation only a few months ago, and it turned out my nagging suspicions were right. Like the OP, I would rationalize that bc my bf would leave his phone around he obviously must not be hiding anything. It turned out he was just careless. Things started solidifying when I found a post card from his ex. But that too was lying around so I thought he must not have anything to hide. When I confronted him he said it was no big deal and she had been contacting him but he had not responded. Another time he left the text screen open in front of me, where I saw that an unsaved number had written “I love you!!” He had just gotten off the phone with his sister, so I thought maybe he just didn’t have her number saved bc he knew it (in hindsight I feel like an idiot for ignoring these signs). Anyway, I started snooping around a little more (never on his phone bc I was actually scared of what I would find) and things started adding up. It turned out he was in a long distance relationship with who I thought was his ex. While I do not support snooping without cause, I know for a fact that he would NEVER have admitted it to me or her. After things started becoming very shady, I asked him multiple times if he was still talking to the ex (I never thought they were actually in a relationship, just still in communication). He denied denied denied, and on top of that he would get mad at me for bringing it up. I always ended up feeling like the jerk. In fact, when I told her about the two timing he denied it vehemently, even though I had given her a ton of evidence like emails, gchats, tons of couple-y pics of us. So my point is, guys are not always going to be honest, even when busted. Sometimes we need that proof so that we know we are making the right decision and can move forward. For me personally it was comforting too because I realized that my gut had been right and I was not crazy for being suspicious.
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 10:20 am
Oh, please. I am so tired of nagging feelings and how we must always follow them. You know who else had a “nagging” feeling. O.J. Simpson! Now I am in no way comparing this LW to O.J. — I am merely saying that just because you feel something doesn’t give that feeling ANY basis in fact!
Flake November 1, 2011, 11:32 am
That nagging feeling could be left over from her divorce, especially if her ex-husband cheated. Depending on how long that relationship lasted, two years isn’t really a lot of time to get over a failed marriage. It would be a real shame if she lets those feeling of hurt and mistrust influence her decisions with her current SO.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:37 pm
In my 20 yrs of marriage, there was no infidelity. I’m a true blue person and so was he. I did, however, have a boyfriend last year that cheated on me. I have posted an update below which will address some things in your post.
Turtledove November 1, 2011, 9:48 am
LW,
Have you spoken with your boyfriend about how his behavior with his friends makes you uncomfortable? He may not be willing or able to change a lot of it, but did you at least give him the chance to address it?
I can’t tell whether or not he’s cheating, but he seems to have been pretty open and honest with you. But just because he’s trustworthy and a good guy doesn’t necessarily mean he’s the right guy for you. You may need someone less flirty and affectionate with friends. There’s nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with his interactions, but there is something wrong with making a decision not to trust him and snooping through his personal space. If you decide you don’t trust him, you need to talk to him about why, see if he can address it, and move on if he can’t.
I’m a tremendous flirt. If I’m talking, I’m probably flirting and most of the time I don’t even realize that I’m doing it. I’ve tried toning it down for partners before, but I haven’t had good results (hard to fix a behavior you don’t even realize you’re doing). That doesn’t make me a bad or untrustworthy person– I’ve never cheated on my husband and I have no desire to. But it does mean that my husband has to trust me and not be uncomfortable with that type of behavior. If my flirting made him uncomfortable, that doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with him or that he has issues, but it does mean that he’s not a good fit for me.
So, long story short, talk to your boyfriend about the flirting in a non-accusatory manner. Tell him what makes you uncomfortable and why. Give him a chance to address it and talk it through with you. If he can’t or won’t tone it down for you, or if you still don’t trust him, then he’s not the right guy for you.
atraditionalist November 1, 2011, 10:18 am
Come on it’s completely inappropriate from the get go. I actually really don’t believe that people are “naturally flirty”. They are usually doing it because they want attention from the opposite sex and they don’t care if their insecurities offends you! Don’t date a guy who is “flirty” when you are in your 40s. Find someone stable and secure. Also: while I respect the advice given I completely disagree with the point where she says that if he displays these kinds of things in front of you then it’s ok. It’s not ok. It’s offensive.
Allison November 1, 2011, 10:23 am
I agree about dating someone who is flirty at that age. Sometimes younger men grow out of it or put the brakes on when they settle down. But this is so ingrained, that he’s probably going to be flirty forever, dating, married or not. If the LW isn’t cool with that, then she might as well move on.
j November 1, 2011, 11:20 am
What does age have to do with it? There’s nothing wrong with being flirtatious, but if he’s disrespecting her and she’s told him, then he’s just being a dick and she should move on, flirtation or not.
Allison November 1, 2011, 10:21 am
I have to disagree with the advice. People don’t say they need “lovin” when they need a “big hug.” And who is in that desperate need of a hug that they have to text their friend about it? This reminds me of the saying: “Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you,” or whatever. Just because someone is a flirt doesn’t mean they aren’t cheating.
I’m not saying that I think he’s cheating, or that she should snoop. But she did. And it seems weird to me to tell her to ignore her concerns for whatever reason — because he sounded sincere or something?
atraditionalist November 1, 2011, 10:22 am
I love that quote! You can be insecure and be correct… he might not be cheating on you but he’s keeping his options open by flirting with this woman
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 10:42 am
Not everybody that flirts is “keeping their options open.” Seriously. But then, I must admit that this view does seem very “traditionalist.” 😉
lk November 1, 2011, 2:34 pm
“Flirting,” by my definition, will be my M.O. till I die & I’m not starving for men haha : )
atraditionalist November 1, 2011, 2:39 pm
yup lol-that’s my MO
fast eddie November 1, 2011, 9:25 am
I don’t understand how being referred to as his girlfriend and partner is disrespectful. If anything it’s a neon sign of affection and commitment. She was looking for trouble by snooping and found something that looked suspicious (not hard evidence). The only way to get beyond this is by confronting herself and confessing to him. At this point there’s not much to lose and the matter needs to be resolved or it will fester if it’s left unattended but be prepared for bad news and have an exit plan just in case. Simultaneously be ready to let it drop if it turns out he’s innocent/faithful and put the pox on her girlfriend at work.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:30 pm
fast eddie:
I am proud to be his girlfriend and partner. I have posted an update. He is committed to me and to our relationship.
j November 1, 2011, 11:19 am
“But I feel I HAVE to be able to trust him completely before moving forward.”
You already *don’t* trust him and even after asking him the truth you still don’t buy it. I’d move on.
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 11:29 am
Yeah, just toss him aside. It’s so super easy to find love at 42. Sure, she has no real evidence or proof of him doing ANYTHING wrong. Sure, he seemed very straight forward and truthful and even hurt at her rather baseless accusations — all that means nothing! Remember, all that matters here is her feelings… Speaking of feelings, I have one of my own, LW. Yep, I have a feeling you could very well end up completely alone. And not just because of this one guy. No, one guy chucked to the curb does not a lonely heart make. BUT if you are going to continually go out of your way to find reasons not to trust guys, well, then in the end you simply won’t be able to find anybody to trust. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
The good news is that now is the time to stop this behavior! You can do it. 🙂
kf November 1, 2011, 12:42 pm
I sort-of agree with j. At 42, 72 or 102, she’d be better off alone than spending the rest of her life with a guy she doesn’t completely trust, constantly rummaging through his text messages. It doesn’t matter whether he’s doing anything wrong – she just may be a poor fit for a flirt.
I only say “sort-of” because at six months, I don’t think the relationship is at the point where she can start telling him what to do and who he can talk to. If she’s constitutionally capable of taking it slowly, why not stay in the relationship for a while, and see where it goes?
rainbow November 1, 2011, 1:57 pm
“at six months, I don’t think the relationship is at the point where she can start telling him what to do and who he can talk to”
you mean that’s appropriate at some other stage?
kf November 1, 2011, 2:13 pm
No (good flag), but a wife has more standing to object to flirting and texting than a gf of <= six months.
savannah November 1, 2011, 2:03 pm
2 ageist posts today BGM- lame.
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 6:39 pm
Actually, I am close to the LW’s age myself — so I know ALL too well that finding love after 40 is not exactly a bed of roses… The reality is that when you are 20 it is much easier to be choosy as you really do have all the time in the world. Plus, EVERYBODY around you is already single and looking… Not so much after 40. That’s not being ageist — that’s just reality.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:41 pm
Bittergaymark:
No, I do not believe I will be alone. I actually am a very trusting person until someone gives me a reason not to trust. Please see my update below.
bittergaymark November 1, 2011, 6:41 pm
I don’t think you will either — as long as you stop listening to your friend (and others on here) who seems to be giving you very bad advice.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:39 pm
J:
It wasn’t that I didn’t trust him totally. I felt confused and hurt and didn’t know what to think because I had no facts or concrete evidence that he had done anything wrong. Please see my update posted below.
SweetPea November 1, 2011, 11:53 am
I agree that finding love gets tougher as time goes on. So, no… finding someone won’t necessarily be easy.
I don’t think she should just “move on” right away. But, I do think there are reasons why her trust in this guy is rather weak. His behavior makes her feel uncomfortable. And I think this guy KNOWS he can be borderline untrustworthy and disrespectful. Otherwise, he would not have said to the LW that he would “feel the same way if the tables were turned”. He KNOWS. And past girlfriends have probably brought it up to him.
If the LW thinks this is worth saving, than she needs to point out that him calling his 20 something female friends “baby” and sending flirtatious texts is just unacceptable. He may really love her enough to work on changing things! But, she should not continue as is. She is better off alone than to constantly feel worried about a boyfriend that can’t behave like a respectful adult.
So, there is something in between “moving on” and being blissfully ignorant…
L November 1, 2011, 11:56 am
First things first, DON’T LOOK THROUGH HIS PHONE. That breeches trust that you have as a couple. You said there were signs besides the texts. You talked to him directly about it and he denied it. But you are still uncomfortable with some things. Ask him to come to a compromise. Maybe ask him to spend less time with this “younger” crowd. Ask him to cut back on calling people “baby”. Ask him to be more professional on the phone instead of “inappropriate”. If he’s not willing to even think about compromise, then it’s not a relationship worth salvaging in my opinion.
Also, have you ever met or hung out with these friends? Do they know you personally? Maybe if you were able to see his interaction with them firsthand you would have a better idea of the context of this whole “lovin’ xoxo” thing.
Long story short, yes you CAN decide if you can trust him or not, but I think you also need to make compromises in this situation. You’re unhappy with some of the things that he has been doing. If he is unwilling to compromise to help you feel more comfortable, frankly he’s not worth your time.
Tracey November 1, 2011, 12:16 pm
You’ve approached him about his suspicious (to you) activity. You’ve taken dubious advice from friends encouraging you to snoop. You’ve flat out asked him if he was cheating. You haven’t told him about how the way he talks or behaves with his female friends in front of you offends you. (And it’s interesting that you note the women are younger. A question to think about: Would you feel the same if the women were the same age as you or older? Why or why not? That’s definitely one to explore.) Look at where and what it’s gotten you – more insecurity, a man you care about who is beginning to pull away, and a relationship you want to keep in trouble.
Unless you can be open and honest with him about your issues with insecurity – not just with him, but with being open enough to have a relationship right now – jealousy, and fear, then you can’t work on getting past it. If you’re open – telling him about how you’re feeling and how you want to work on improving, moving to a better place – then, you have a better chance of making a change.
That means you have to allow yourself to trust him – quit looking at his phone, snooping around, and pushing him away. That means you have to stop taking bad advice from your friends and talking to them about your relationship problems when the conversations should be held with your boyfriend instead. That means you have to tell him about your insecurity and fear – without blaming him for that insecurity and fear because he’s not the cause of them. Those feelings are all coming from within you. That means you have to tell him that it makes you uncomfortable when he calls his female friends “baby,” or kisses them in front of you. You’re entitled to feel the way you feel, but that also means you have to be responsible enough to say so in a way that expresses those feelings without blaming. (Ex. “When you call your female friends ‘baby,’ it makes me feel [insert appropriate emotion here] because [insert your feelings – without blaming or accusing him – here], and I need your help getting me past this because I love you, I trust you, and I don’t want to feel this way.”)
That sort of talk – stating without blaming or attacking – is difficult to do, so it may mean you need to talk to a counselor (perhaps as a couple, definitely on an individual basis) to work on finding the root cause of and resolving the issue at hand.
Unfortunately, it also means the relationship may end. He may not want to stick around, may be angry about the snooping, may be dealing with his own emotional issues that haven’t come to the fore, or who knows what else. But if you keep snooping, accusing, and assuming he’s cheating, the relationship will certainly end because no healthy relationship can withstand that atmosphere. If you love him, you should give it a try. If you love yourself and want to move away from the insecurity, then you have to give it a try.
Skyblossom November 1, 2011, 12:18 pm
When you need to ask him to make lots of changes to himself so that you can be comfortable with him he’s probably not the right guy for you. Instead of demanding that this guy change why not find a guy that is a better match.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:44 pm
I completely agree, Skyblossom. I have met many men who weren’t a match for me for whatever reason. I feel it’s unfair to ask someone to change just for you. Sure you can work at changing little, minor things, but it’s hard to change who you are and you shouldn’t have to. I have posted an update below.
Britannia November 1, 2011, 12:30 pm
I can’t think of a reason in the world that I would send a platonic friend a message ending in “xoxoxo”… which means “hug-kiss-hug-kiss”. Sending that to someone means that you’re sending them a virtual version of a hug and kiss. That’s romantic, not platonic. I only send such a thing to my boyfriend! Maybe this woman has a different idea of what that sign-off means, but I would raise my eyebrow if someone were sending such to my significant other. LW shouldn’t have looked through his phone and should stop doing that immediately, but I’d certainly continue to be wary and to put the relationship development on pause for a while until some significant time passes.
Flake November 1, 2011, 2:20 pm
Maybe it’s just me, but I never take the XOXO part of messages literally.
bagge72 November 1, 2011, 12:32 pm
LW I think you boyfriend is in a grey area right now. He hasn’t physically cheated on you, but to ME it sounds like he is at least doing some sexting to have a little fun. Now depending on the person (me specifically) they would consider this cheating aswell, but you don’t have enough information yet to prove this. You probably didn’t find any texts before because he is smart enough to delete the other ones, I mean really it takes a couple of seconds. It sounds like your boyfriend is extremely flirty, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he does some sexting with other girls, but just leaves it at that. I mean that is really just an extension of what he is doing right in front of your face anyways with his friends. I’m also guessing he figured out it was pretty easy to lie to you about what this text was, because you were already giving him excuses before you brought it up to him.
I don’t think the stuff he does is stuff that can’t be fixed with communication, if what he has done so far isn’t already to much for you. I think you really need to sit down, and have a talk with your boyfriend with what makes you uncomfortable with his friends and through his phone, and if you see a change you can go from there, and decide if you want to trust him or not.
Honestly this guy got out of his divorce, and it sounds like he was in a phase where he went back to the bar scene, and was trying to bag as many you girls as possible, and he just really hasn’t gotten out of that phase. Which I don’t blame him he has already done the marriage thing, and I’m sure it is a whole lot of fun to him, but if he is serious about getting into another long term relationship he is going to have to think about giving some of that stuff up, or cutting back some what.
AKchic November 1, 2011, 12:58 pm
This is a tough situation. I’m a very open person, and I am friends with many of my former flames. We have inside jokes, and chit chat on occasion (some of us talk weekly and hang out once in a while).
You didn’t mention the reason for your divorce, or the reason for the subsequent break-ups of your two relationships between your divorce and current relationship. Can I assume infidelity in at least one? This may play a part in the insecurity. Can I assume that infidelity in at least one of your guy’s relationships that makes you concerned that it will happen again?
He seemed genuinely hurt. Either he’s a very good actor, having had experience in this area before; or he really isn’t cheating and is a good venting board for his female friends.
Right now, you really have no proof of infidelity. Trust him until he gives you a reason NOT to trust. Stop snooping in his phone. All it will do is make him think you’re an untrusting, jealous shrew and he will leave.
oldie November 1, 2011, 1:08 pm
What a strange letter. She’s known this guy for 6 months. They’ve talked about each wanting to settle down with ‘someone’. Interestingly, they haven’t talked about settling down with each other. Everything has been ‘wonderful’ in this first stage of their relationship and he is ‘extremely good’ to her, but… she thinks he is cheating and she is upset that he hangs with a group of friends who are younger than her and who are all extremely flirty with each other, to the extent that it makes her very uncomfortable. And she is very jealous — she has a gut feeling that he’s seeing someone else. And she has snooped in his phone a couple times. And she didn’t feel comfortable talking to him about what she found…. That ‘everything’ seems to exclude and awful lot that she views as less than wonderful.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:47 pm
Oldie,
We want to settle down with each other. And have done so to a big extent. I’ve posted an update below.
My hesitancy to talk to him initially was because of a bad experience I had in my 20 yr marriage. I was berated and talked down to constantly and my opinions never mattered. My bf, however, is not like that yet those feelings of not being heard were creeping up. We DID talk and I was able to share my heart with him and he was so kind, loving, patient about the whole thing. Please see my update below.
HmC November 1, 2011, 1:12 pm
I agree with the advice that the LW should choose to trust this guy, but what’s the harm in talking to him first? I realize she already talked to him regarding whether he was cheating, but even if he isn’t cheating, he’s doing things that make her uncomfortable.
For example, the LW says that she is “willing to overlook” the fact that he calls his friends baby. But she’s clearly NOT overlooking it, since she mentions it here. All these things are adding up to make her feel insecure in the relationship. And if he wants her to be happy, maybe there are some compromises they both need to make. He hasn’t had a relationship in 15 years, that’s a long time! He may not realize that what he’s doing bothers his girlfriend, and may not even know what most women would consider to be appropriate.
And bottom line, whether or not the boyfriend’s behavior would bother most women, it’s bothering his girlfriend, and that’s a problem for both of them. If they’re both unwilling to compromise in some minor ways to make his each other happy, then maybe this simply isn’t the right relationship for either of them.
oldie November 1, 2011, 1:28 pm
I’m guessing he’s probably not interested in settling down with her, but she’s at a point where she’d be jealous with anyone she was dating.
He’s been single 15 years, has had quite a few girlfriends (I say this because she implies he’s had a lot, while she’s had just a few in her two single years), and is 47. If he wanted to settle down, he’d have settled by now, rather than engaging in amorphous discussion with her about really, really wanting to settle down with ‘someone’.
She is both upset that he runs with a group of friends who include flirty/affectionate women younger than her and convinced that he is having an affair with a near-50-year old. The first part seems to match his personality as described. The second doesn’t.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:51 pm
Oldie:
I’m truly not a jealous person. And he does want to settle down with me. Just before meeting me, he had made up his mind he wanted a LTR and did not want to “date around.” We hit it off immediately and have been inseparable since.
Also, he is the type of person that has friends of all ages. We hang out with older people too that are closer to our age. He treats friends the same, no matter the age. He sees people for their inner beauty. Doesn’t look at age.
Please see my update below.
HmC November 1, 2011, 2:23 pm
Ah, I just realized that I absorbed the part where he’s been single for 15 years, but missed the “he’s had several girlfriends.” I guess LW uses single to describe unmarried, which isn’t how I use that term…
bagge72 November 1, 2011, 2:34 pm
I think she meant by saying single for 15 years she meant the amount of time he has been divorced for, not actually the amount of time since he has had a girlfriend.
bagge72 November 1, 2011, 2:37 pm
Doh. Took to long to post!
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:48 pm
HmC:
He has had one 7 yr relationship since his divorce. The other 8 years were spent dating various people, but found no one he could have a serious relationship with. And up until I talked with him, he didn’t realize his behavior bothered me. Please see my update below.
Genshiken November 1, 2011, 1:30 pm
Dear LW,
From your letter, you sound like a professional. You have a good idea of what you want and don’t want in a partner. So this I say, DTMFA! (Dump the mother f—– already)
This is not going the way you want it to. With suspicion, snooping and the gut feeling of “not working” the both of you don’t deserve each other. Find someone (or something) that makes you feel happy and comfortable.
Crazy in Love November 1, 2011, 2:19 pm
I am the Original Poster. I would like to thank all of you for your comments.
My purpose in writing is to give an update.
My bf and I did have a talk… a long one. But prior to us talking, he confided in a mutual friend about our relationship. This is someone we are both close to and someone he is very comfortable talking to. He told our friend that he is crazy in love with me, didn’t want anyone else, would NEVER cheat on me, and how he wanted our relationship to succeed. She shared these things with me and some specifics that I won’t go into. When we had our long talk, I wanted to put EVERYTHING on the table and discuss all aspects of our relationship that were bothersome. I brought up the “baby” thing and I told him about snooping on his phone. He genuinely shared his heart and the fact that he loves me very much and would never want to do anything to upset me or to cause me not to trust him. He explained the text message. It was an old girlfriend and he assured me that he NEVER responds to her advances. This woman knows he’s in a relationship. At the time of the text, he was doing work for her mother who’s in her 70’s. Because she’s elderly, all correspondence was going through this exgirlfriend. He said it made him very uncomfortable when she would text him or says suggestive things to him, but he just wanted to do his work and get out of there. In the construction business, you take whatever work comes your way because Winter months are usually very slow. He was feeling pressure because of this and because Christmas coming up. He wanted to make as much money as he could before things slowed. I do understand this because I’ve seen construction work slow up in winter for most everyone. I do believe he is being truthful and since our talk, I’ve not looked on his phone once. And I won’t ever look at it again. I’m not one to hold a grudge and once I have things settled in my heart, I am truly able to move ahead. I’ve always been able to do this. I do believe with all my heart that he is committed to me. He says he wants to be with me for the rest of our lives. I don’t believe he is leading me on blindly. I truly believe him and my trust in him has been restored.
And yes, he has stopped calling everyone baby. That name is just reserved for me. It has slipped a few times because it’s a habit for him, but he always apologizes.
Some of you have asked about my former marriage. It was a 20 yr marriage. There was no infidelity there, yet I did have a boyfriend cheat on me before I met my current bf. I am actually way too trusting of people until they give me a reason (or in this case, a suspicion) to not trust. But, in THIS relationship, I am choosing to trust him and it has actually made our relationship stronger.
Someone asked if I had met his friends. Yes, I have. We all hang out about once a week. He is not embarassed or ashamed to be with me. He actually likes to flaunt me, which makes me feel good. He is a nice looking man and I am an attractive woman so he likes having me by his side. Whether we are out with friends or just chillin at home, he’s always holding my hand, kissing me, has an arm around me, etc… showing me his affections.
I do believe had I not talked to him, our relationship would’ve deteriorated past a point of being restored. We are both adults and we are able to communicate very rationally with one another. We both made a promise to each other that if something bothers us, we will talk about it right away and keep the air clear. We both want this relationship to work and we both love one another very much.
So…. a few things I have learned from this experience:
1. Don’t invate another person’s privacy.
2. Communicate, even if something negative will come of it. You owe it to the
other person to be honest and up front.
Still Crazy in Love (and very happy)
6napkinburger November 1, 2011, 2:51 pm
Urg.
I freaking hate these snooping questions because I so vehemently disagree with everyone. Maybe that makes me immature. Whatever.
Snooping is generally bad. Ok. We get it.
BUT. Not ALL snooping is bad. And if you find something bad, just because you found it through snooping doesn’t change the inherent wrongness in the thing discovered. (second rant coming soon explaining this)
For an example (which I’m sure everyone will throw back in my face):
Police have to follow certain rules regarding searches and seizures. They’re in the constitution. Police need probable cause and/or warrants to search a lot of stuff. Generally, if they don’t have probable cause and a warrant, then they can’t use what they find against you in court. The courts developed that rule to discourage police from doing bad searches. [That, as it happens, ISN’T in the constitution, but its a pretty good idea.]
BUT: There is a process that they have that we don’t have. They can get a warrant and it makes it NOT SNOOPING. Let’s say a police woman has a bunch of indications that make her think that you have kiddie porn And she in her gut she thinks you do. If she’s smart, she doesn’t just go barreling into your apartment, looking around for it. She can submit all of that to a judge and say: “Hey, I know snooping generally isn’t allowed, but it is allowed if I have a good enough reason to believe they’re breaking the law and if you agree with me. Here’s why I think they have kiddie porn: x,y,z. Don’t you think I have probable cause, Judge?” and the Judge can say “Yes I do. Here’s a warrant. Have at it.”
The constitution agrees that there is “bad snooping” and there is “good snooping.” Bad snooping = no warrant = generally excluded. Good snooping = with legitimate warrant = catching the bad guy.
But we don’t get this in our real lives. Because there is no arbiter, everything gets lumped into “bad snooping.” When there is SO much more to it than that.
So I say, if a person has enough suspicion and evidence sufficient to establish “probable cause”, because there is no one to issue a warrant, they should go ahead with their search. And I say its justified and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Just like there is nothing wrong with performing a search with a legitimate warrant. [Of course, people will consider this subjectively and declare that they always have “probable cause” and snoop away with no fair reason. And I don’t always agree with that; it think there is a broader, more objective standard. But I also have a lower threshold than everyone else does.]
So I just cannot get on board with the “everyone who snoops is always wrong, even when they’re justified and should apologize.” Grrr.
Flake November 1, 2011, 3:03 pm
Yeah, but then you should be able to deal with the consequences of your snooping. The problem is, most people snoop and then say that, “now that I have found something suspicious I don’t know what to do”. You can’t un-know what you find. So if you go there, at least have a concrete plan for following through, depending on what you learn.
6napkinburger November 1, 2011, 3:04 pm
Second Rant
Just because you found it through snooping doesn’t change the inherent wrongness in the thing discovered.
So. If the police don’t have a warrant and a good reason to think you’re doing something illegal, they can’t just bust on in to your apartment. But let’s say they did. And they find a whole lotta kiddie porn. Like a LOT of kiddie porn. Files and pictures and such. Too bad, they didn’t get a warrant; they can’t use it in court and you get to walk.
But just like we don’t get an arbiter to issue warrants (bad), our lives are not bound by the same rules of evidence (in this case, good). And we don’t have to be bound by the same policy reasons that bind the police. The reason for excluding the stuff found through bad methods is not to protect the guilty people, but to protect the innocent people who AREN’T breaking the laws from unreasonable searches. So they make it apply to everyone, to incentive good actions. So the law says that just because you found bad things doesn’t mean you were justified to go in the first place. BUT IN REAL LIFE, THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS.
Let’s just say you aren’t justified in your feeling that your husband was sleeping around, but you snoop in his gps and follow him one day because you have a feeling. You see him pull into a motel. You pay off the cleaning lady to let you into the room you see him go into and you see him balls deep in your yoga instructor. You do not have to justify your “snooping” to him. He is just plain 100% wrong. Your accuracy negates your unjusfiability.
Sure, it incentizes bad behavior. It can lead people to snoop on innocent people when they shouldn’t. And when someone is factually wrong about cheating/lying/etc, they most definitely SHOULD apologize because they were wrong. They were wrong because they weren’t right. But if they were right, I just will not fault them for successfully establishing they were right.
XanderTaylor November 1, 2011, 3:08 pm
As the resident Nana on this site I would like to offer some advice from my own experience with post divorce relationships over the last 6 years. This is for divorced people aged 40+: If you are not comfortable with the person you are dating stop dating them.
In reading this letter I think the issue is that they are not a good fit. He is a bachelor with a group of friends much younger than him. Regardless of the over the top snooping (stop that, too!), the LW seems put off by the younger friends & his flirting with the women portion of these friends. I would be uncomfortable with this, too. Life is too short (I am 47) to waste any of it trying to make a post divorce relationship morph into one you are comfortable with. Take some time to grow into yourself – you do not need a partner to complete you. You do not need to be OK with everyone & everything. You do need to find out who you are, what you want & what you are willing to put up with. People talk about deal breakers; you need to find out what yours are. They are not bad – you must have some. Your bf’s basic personality (which manifests itself in younger friends, bachlorhood, & flirting with younger women) would be a deal breaker for me. Next. If I was crazy with jealousy that would be a deal breaker for me. Next. Your deal breakers don’t have to be anything the other person is doing wrong – they can be just what the other person is doing (part of who they are) or the feelings you have in the relationship (like jealousy). You will know when you have a relationship you are comfortable in. Until then keep looking keep growing and keep going to see your life coach (therapist).
Dennis Hong November 1, 2011, 2:20 pm
Ugh. Okay, I’m gonna plug myself here, but I think the LW really needs to check out this article I wrote for Cracked:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19066_7-psychotic-pieces-relationship-advice-from-cosmo.html
JK November 1, 2011, 2:31 pm
I remember that one!! 🙂
SpyGlassez November 1, 2011, 10:02 pm
The internet is a small place – I love reading Cracked, and I remember that article!
Crazy in Love November 9, 2011, 4:36 pm
Another update….
We’re doing great. He has expressed his desire to buy me an engagement ring. And four days ago we found out that I’m almost six weeks pregnant. My first baby at 42 yrs old. I’ve been told all my adult life that I could not get pregnant. Surprise! We are a bit apprehensive because of our ages, but we are, however, very excited. He is committed to me and to our baby. Wow…! Big changes so fast!
lets_be_honest November 9, 2011, 4:39 pm
WHOA! That’s some update! Congrats!
Matcha November 10, 2011, 5:07 pm
Definitely!
Crazy in Love November 10, 2011, 4:33 pm
Thank you, lets_be_honest. The pregnancy was a big shock to us and we are scared, worried, fearful, excited, happy, all rolled up into one. But he has expressed his committment to me and this baby so as long as he is by my side, we will make it. Again, thank you for the congrats…