For all you single ladies out there on the look out for a suitable man at the bar, don’t be one of these six kinds of women men are cautioned to stay away from. Among the women guys are warned not to hit on are “the sloppy drunk,” “the bartender,” and “the wild chick.” You may be thinking to yourself, but all those girls look like such a good time, and a guy doesn’t want a wallflower. Although all these types of women may look like the life of the party, if you’re acting wild and sloppy all the time, guys will think you’re a high maintenance girl constantly wanting attention from every guy in the bar. Chances are, if you’re acting this way every weekend, guys are probably chasing after the less talkative girl who’s calmly sitting at the bar with her girlfriends sipping a drink, not dancing on the bar and participating in beer chugging contests.
So ladies, heed this article as a warning as how to not act at the bar if you’re looking for your next boyfriend. Guys prowling for a suitable girlfriend or future wifey type are looking for classy, confident, and loyal women. So go out to the bar and have a good time, but don’t be that girl. Sip your drink but don’t guzzle it down. Flirt with a cute guy at the bar, but don’t dry hump him on the dance floor. Avoid being too crazy and you’ll be on the right path to finding your other half.
[via Mademan]
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CH June 20, 2012, 3:38 pm
not only that, you’ll also be more likely to find someone who’s well-suited for you, rather than someone who is attracted to party girl you. i have been on both sides of this coin, and it’s entirely exhausting to have to keep up a party persona.
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 3:39 pm
No wonder I always strike out – I’m guilty of 2 of these! But from here on out, when I am on the prowl I will stop being the sloppy drunk lesbian – it is not serving me well. ;
HmC June 20, 2012, 3:41 pm
“Hitting on a girl that can’t, and won’t, remember your name the next day is just asking for trouble. If the girl doesn’t know when to say when, then you need to say no. You always want to make sure a woman has control of all her faculties. It keeps you from getting accused of taking advantage of her, and, you’ll really know she was in to you or not when you exchange info.”
*Ahem* I don’t like this. Guys shouldn’t be counseled on how to “keep from getting accused of taking advantage” of women. They should be counseled NOT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WOMEN. Maybe that seems like a subtle semantic difference to some, but it’s huge to me.
bethany June 20, 2012, 4:32 pm
I certainly don’t mean for this to be taken the wrong way or to make actual victims of sexual assault feel bad, BUT– There are PLENTY of girls out there who get drunk and think “why not” and will sleep with guys, then the next day when the gravity of what they did hits them, they try to make it sound like they were taken advantage of.
Let me repeat, I am not saying this is the case all the time, or even close to that, but it happens. And I’m sure it happens a lot, and guys need to protect themselves from being accused of rape, just as much as girls need to not put themselves in harmful situations.
bluesunday June 20, 2012, 5:03 pm
I have to say, I agree. Due to our Jersey Shore style culture where the crazy drinking, partying, hooking up lifestyle is really glorified, a lot of younger girls (especially when they first enter University) feel sort of peer pressured into having this particular brand of “fun”. They don’t consider whether they’re *really* okay with casual sex, they just go home with whatever they were grinding against during last call, and they understandably regret it the next day. I wish that these girls didn’t feel the expectation to present themselves as hyper- sexualized in order to be considered attractive.
I just read this over and I feel damn old.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:10 pm
I agree they need to protect themselves from being accused, and that can be done by TEACHING them what rape is FIRST, and then warning them of the consequences. The problem with the conversation around rape and sexual assault in this country is the idea the consequences are talked about nearly exclusively.
And as for guys getting accused of rape ‘a lot’ well the statistics just don’t support that. Less than half of rapes are even reported, and only 12% see a courtroom. Do you think a lot of the 12% are false accusations?
I do not mean to single you out, but I happen to be a rape survivor, and it is a touchy subject for me.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 5:16 pm
But when it DOES happen it’s DEVASTATING. Anybody familiar with the big story out here in LA about the high school football star that was falsely accused and LOST everything? He spent years in jail. Then — he WAS friended on facebook by his alleged victim. She wanted to apologize, said she felt really baby about lying and blah blah blah… but was worried about having to give back all the money (nearly a million dollars) she and her mother won in a settlement against the school….
And what about the Lacrosse team a few years back? Everybody (including me, I might add) wanted that team lynched, and in the end it was all total bullshit.
Increasingly, it seems there are reason to be skeptical… And that’s sad. But it is what it is.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:20 pm
That is the exception, not the norm.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 5:36 pm
Whatever. Those are just the few that we hear about…
Savannah June 20, 2012, 9:30 pm
Because that number is so much higher than the literally thousands of rapes a week nobody every hears about? Your perspective is dangerously skewed.
ele4phant June 21, 2012, 12:35 am
Well, as I’ve come to understand in general terms, news usually covers the exceptional, not the every day. Its not as “newsworthy” if its the status quo…
Lili June 21, 2012, 12:53 am
OMG THIS. YES. Its also why the crimes that are reported are stranger on stranger crimes. Who has the time to get into a in depth story covering that the mugging and beating of so and so’s wallet was actually tied into a fued the people had going all the way back to person 1 sleeping with person 2’s SO, then person 2 retaliating by stealing the wallet while beating the guy up (oversimplified story but you get the drift right). Its so much more sensationalized to report that lady jogging (at dusk at the lake) who got mugged. It then stirs up all these scared people who then start worrying about dusk and the lake instead of the SMALL chance it’d happen to them by a stranger. Can someone in legal please find me the percentage of minor and major crimes commited against strangers. The #s are less than people think. Seriously.
Bethany June 20, 2012, 5:28 pm
I’m sorry that happened to you, but you’re projecting your situation onto what I was talking about, when in reality they are two TOTOALLY different things.
Obviously rape is horrible, and having some guy screw you while your unconscious is obviously rape, but that’s NOT what I was talking about.
I was talking about someone getting falsely accused of a horrible crime that they didn’t committ because someone is ashamed to say that they got drunk and decided to bang some guy. It happens a LOT- trust me. I heard about it at college all the time, and I know girls who have done it. That is what I was talking about.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:36 pm
I’m not projecting as I was not drunk when I was raped. That was fantastically presumptuous.
Of course it’s horrible for those who are falsely accused, but my problem with that argument is that it COMES OUT OF THE WOODWORK when people talk about rape, even though it does not happen ‘A LOT.’ It’s just that when it does happen it’s huge news because it’s freaking awful. You may have heard it from a bunch of people, but that’s anecdotal-not evidence. The statistics prove it does NOT happen a lot.
Bethany June 20, 2012, 5:57 pm
You replied to my comment, with something that was totally not what my comment was about. I’m sorry if you don’t like what I had to say, but I stand by my point that we are talking about two totally different things.
caitie_didnt June 20, 2012, 5:33 pm
hoooooo boy. I don’t have the time or emotional werewithal to wade into a debate like this today. But Tara, I have your back 100% on this. The only way to stop rape is by stopping rapists. That’s it. end of story. No qualifiers, no explanations, no “slippery slopes” no “grey areas” about what is “real” rape or a “real” victim and who is not a real victim. Spouting off about “reasonable precautions” is treating victims like dumbasses who weren’t aware of the risks in the first place.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:38 pm
Being careful and telling your loved ones to be careful is not treating people like dumbasses.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 5:48 pm
Apparently it is. Women! YOU are ALL simply POWERLESS!! Nothing you can do can possibly prevent a rape. So, you might as well get wasted each and every fucking night to the point of blacking out. Oh, and make sure you do so in the most dangerous part of town you can find… Why not? Nothing can protect you anyway. You are all just powerless little victims in waiting, I guess…
**rolls eyes.
SweetsAndBeats June 20, 2012, 6:47 pm
I don’t think that most women understand or agree that by allowing them to carry some of the “blame” by taking their actions into account when determining why the rape happened, that you are actually giving their power back to them, instead of just categorizing females as helpless and powerless.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 7:44 pm
Clearly not. It’s seems so obvious to me… But then lots of thing seem obvious to me and the world at large remains clueless and hapless…
katie June 20, 2012, 7:15 pm
“Nothing can protect you anyway.”
this is what i take so much offense to with this whole thing. because i feel, if i listen to my gut and trust my instincts, i CAN control it, atleast to some miniscule degree. it makes me feel powerFUL, not powerLESS. to know that if i can take my own personal safety into account in my day to day interactions with the general public i might be able to avoid danger (any danger!!) makes me feel good. it makes me feel confident, competent, and strong.
someone said yesterday that 70% of rapes are committed by people they have some sort of relationship with… and going by that, if i am able to reduce that other 30% by ANY stretch by watching out for my own back, im going to fucking do that, you better believe it.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 7:19 pm
Okay but what happens if you get raped anyway? Wouldn’t it suck knowing that people out there are going to be silently (or not so silently) thinking that you could have avoided it? Or that you deserved it because you had been drinking?
katie June 20, 2012, 7:36 pm
if i get raped anyway, at least in my heart i know that i took whatever precautions felt right at that moment in time. at least i know in my heart i was doing what felt right, and someone else took advantage of that.
and yes, it is sad that people think you can “avoid” it because in reality, you cant avoid anything completely in life. there is no 100%. i just think that the two ideas can exist together. you can try to be safe and still not deserve what happened to you. that exists. that is real life. would you tell an attempted murder victim as they are recovering in the hospital from stab wounds oh well you should have been more safe? if you did, i would say you were victim blaming. you might also tell them how you can be safe in the future, suggest self defense classes, ect.. and i dont think that is victim blaming.
i said this yesterday, but victim blaming happens in every crime… if only you would have locked your car, ect- and thats still bad. i dont see how rape and sexual assault are in this special category where trying to be safe is victim blaming…
wendykh February 8, 2013, 2:19 am
Yes it is. Why don`t you tell young men to stop drinking so much since they`re more likely to rape and/or be accused of it after drinkingÉ
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 3:46 pm
I’ve commented on here about this before but the the advice given to men from a young age is “Don’t do this or you could be accused of RAPE!!” when it should be “An unconscious or near-unconscious woman cannot consent to sex. So having sex with her is not sex- it’s rape.”
Fucking duh.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 4:02 pm
Eh,maybe people — notice how I specifically didn’t day women, I said people — should really just fucking learn to hold their liquor better. Sorry, but if a man or woman drinks to that point where they are practically unconscious, eh, they pretty much deserve what’s coming to them. Seriously, grow the fuck up, people. Grow the fuck up. Take some responsibility.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:05 pm
3, 2, 1…
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:13 pm
Bla bla bla, bla bla, blah!
(I’m too lazy to respond.)
But hopefully someone is so outraged that they bite, and then we can have a good debate on here.
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:22 pm
Like a real debate. Not like that time Zepp pissed everyone off. Ha.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:24 pm
HA! Whatever Addie. That was my favorite yet. Everyone agreed with me, for once!
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 4:15 pm
No, I seriously believe this. And guys, especially gay guys can get themselves into just as much trouble… I think we’ve gone to another equally wrong extreme in our society with regards to victim shaming to the point where it’s become instead victim enabling…
Look. I used to have a semi-good friend who was a fucking mess. He’d get wasted every other night, go home with some random he’d been all over all night at the fucking bar, and then come morning come crying to me about how he woke up in some strange apartment with some strange man… Omigod, was it rape and blah blah blah.
It was darkly hilarious that somehow I always knew the name… How? My friend had introduced us the night before as “The new love of my life!” and my friend couldn’t have acted more into the guy for hours and hours as I was there at the bar. Eventually, it even got to point where I’d even say, are you sure you want to go home with this guy? He’s get pissed and tell me to butt out. Frankly, it got so tiring, I dropped him as a friend. We all started to call him the boy who cried rape. Basically, he was a slut who only felt guilty in the morning and always rationalized his own bad behavior. It was never HIS fault. It was always the booze. Or the guy had gotten too aggressive. Whatever, my friend was no waif. He was the toughest guy I knew actually. It was pathetic.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:23 pm
Ok, ok, haven’t even read this response, but saw yours and Addie’s above. Listen, I’m all for personal responsibility. Just a couple days ago on here, there was a fight about ‘victim-shaming’ and people were accusing RR of all people. However, just a couple days ago on here, there was also a line that stuck out at me about the guy who said ‘I’m a man, I can do what I want’ or something like that. One of the comments to that letter was from a teacher (I think) that says this to her students when they pull the I’m an adult card: Welcome to adulthood Mr. X. Meet your new best friend, Dr. Consequence.
Being smart, aware and responsible, and telling your friends to do the same IS NOT VICTIM SHAMING. Its being a wise, safe adult. Anyway, there’s my 2 cents.
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:25 pm
Wait, what fight about victim-shaming where *my* regina rey was accused? Someone has *got* to be in charge of alerting me to fights/debates/hot topics on DW.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:29 pm
It was this week, when I got to skim comments while hiding in my office bathroom pretending to have a stomach ache so I could take a break. 🙁
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:33 pm
I was probably stuffing my face with poutines somewhere in Quebec.
Well, I’m starting my new job on Monday and there are a few things I’m going to try, for the first time ever – and I’m hoping I stick with these things because I think it’s necessary for my long-term sanity:
1. Don’t use work email for personal stuff. God if they ever wanted to embarrass me, they could just pull up my thousands and thousands of work emails used for personal things like talking to my girlfriends about dates gone awry and whatnot.
2. Don’t waste time. My billables are lower at my new job (more money, less hours – isn’t that AWESOME?!), but they’re not *that* much lower. They’re 200 hours lower. Still, if I want to keep my sanity, I need to get in, bill, and get out. This means no Facebooking and no Dear Wendy (during the work day). I know, I know, it will be very hard for me. But I HAVE GOT TO GIVE IT A TRY. *Or* I need to find a way to do these things for like 15 minutes instead of like 5 hours.
3. That’s all but really I couldn’t stop at 2.
GatorGirl June 21, 2012, 3:50 pm
There is some new research out (I can’t remember from where) that says taking a short break actually increases productivity. So maybe you should budget in a little morning and afternoon DW break. (If it’s allowed- I don’t really get how lawyer stuff works).
Also, my aunt is a lawyer and she was fired over using her work e-mail for personal reasons. She sent a letter to the mayor or something which got published somewhere and eventually her boss found out it came from her work e-mail and out the door she went. So force yourself to keep it seperate.
JK June 20, 2012, 5:30 pm
Sorry, I´ve been slacking off all week (both girls at home all day, today a holiday). I promise to do better after tomorrow.
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 8:22 pm
You have to stop reading other columns. It’s cheating. And you are slacking on your duties to tell me when I am missing something hot and need to check out a column or a forum. JK, I put my DW life in your hands! Gasp.
JK June 20, 2012, 9:45 pm
I know, I´m sorry, I thought I could relax with you off on your road trip. 🙂
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 9:48 pm
No, that’s when you got to bring your A game more than ever!
anonymous June 20, 2012, 4:44 pm
I’m completely with you, BGM — I tell my kids all the time, “Actions speak louder than words;” in other words, if you’re saying “no, no” while grinding yourself against him, um — you’re really, really asking for it. You need to take responsibility for yourself and not expect someone else to take more responsibility than you’re actually willing to own up to. Yes, some people really DO ask for it, IMO. And I’m trying to teach my kids how NOT to be those idiots.
Nadine June 20, 2012, 8:34 pm
Yes. People who have crimes committed against them were just badly brought up.
Kristina June 20, 2012, 4:49 pm
In a way, I agree. It all becomes a slippery slope when alcohol enters the picture anyways though. When I hear about those who cry rape because they regret what happened, I can’t help but get mad because it diminishes the concern for rape in general.
It’s similar to those who cheat and use alcohol as an excuse–no, own up to your actions and stop blaming alcohol–either that or stop drinking. In addition, people need to be taught about responsible drinking and that claiming rape is not okay–it’s sad that people need to be taught this, but it’s true. People need to be taught that regretting a hook-up or one night stand, especially one fueled with alcohol, may very well happen. And that’s okay, but they need to learn how to deal with it, or not get into that situation again. However, no one deserves what is coming to them because they drank too much to the point of being nearly unconscious.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:53 pm
People need to be taught that regretting a hook-up or one night stand, especially one fueled with alcohol, may very well happen. And that’s okay, but they need to learn how to deal with it, or not get into that situation again. However, no one deserves what is coming to them because they drank too much to the point of being nearly unconscious.
Both points, well stated.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 6:22 pm
I really like your comment. I think it’s important to really think about why girls might feel shame about a one night stand. Damned if you do damned if you don’t. If you don’t regret it you’re a slut. So you have to right? If society would quit slut shaming girls maybe there would be less false reporting. Although false reporting is extremely rare, and rape is the most under-reported crimes for all the reasons everyone is listing here. Their actions will be scrutinized – not those of the rapist.
anonymous June 20, 2012, 6:58 pm
I don’t understand: “no one deserves _what is coming to them_ because they drank too much to the point of being nearly unconscious.” What do you mean by that? To me, “what is coming to them” = consequence. And, sorry to say, people generally DO ask for the consequences of their actions. Freak things happen, yes. But CHOOSING to drink yourself into oblivion is unlikely to result in a positive outcome. So WHY DO IT? And WHY BLAME SOMEONE ELSE if something happens when you have chosen to drink that much?
In sum, I completely disagree that people “don’t deserve what is coming to them.” Nope. It comes under the heading of getting a Darwin award.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 7:17 pm
Because getting black out drunk is legal – being a rapist is not. End of discussion. Does the woman married to the wife-beater deserve to be murdered because she didn’t divorce him? Does the girl that doesn’t like threesomes deserve to get cheated on? Does the person who left their car in an unsafe area deserve it to be stolen? Does the person at the dog park deserve to be mauled by an untrained dog?
You think people deserve to have crimes committed against them? Really?
anonymous June 20, 2012, 8:56 pm
I must admit to some ambivalence about this issue, and I understand your arguments, although they are much more clearly delineated in my mind than this issue — because there is no real question about consent in those examples. I guess I took issue with Kristina’s statement that they didn’t deserve the consequence of their action.
That the consequence *should* be sex is of course questionable! I would certainly agree that under no circumstances should anyone have sex with someone who is falling down drunk.
That said, I know of several people who drink to the point of passing out/not remembering what’s happened, but they appear perfectly lucid at the time. This is part of my concern — or maybe some of you will call it “blame the victim mentality” — because anyone who approached them could in truth believe that consent is possible. From the perspective of those who were drinking, they weren’t in a fit condition to consent. To that sort of person, I have to admit that my sympathies are limited and I think that they should be *more* responsible and not expect others to assess their level of alcohol intake.
In sum: I DO think people should be aware of the consequences of their actions and should NOT act like idiots. There are consequences to poor behavior, and –yes — some of them can result in crimes being committed. I choose not to park in certain areas because they don’t feel safe to me. Should I be able to park in those other areas? Yes, theoretically, I should. However, I use my common sense and don’t expect an overworked police force to take better care of me than I take care of myself.
Caveat — domestic violence (I know you guys were about to jump on me here!) has its own very complicated emotional interdependence issues. I do NOT consider someone who stays to be an idiot, but to be under the influence of very difficult circumstances and emotional interdependence.
In my opinion, drinking past the possibility of true consent is irresponsible and stupid, a consequence of which could be what the victim considers rape. In my mind, it’s expecting others to take better care of you than you take care of yourself — which is rather idealistic and not particularly wise. Should you be able to? In an ideal world, yes. I think we all know that this is not an ideal world, though.
anonymous June 20, 2012, 8:57 pm
Oh, and there are plenty of dumb things to do that are perfectly legal and can also wind up in your getting hurt. It’s legal to put your hand in the garbage disposal & turn it on. But I don’t recommend it.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 9:12 pm
Actually, getting black out drunk ISN’T exactly what I would call legal. People get arrested for public intoxication all the time…
guest June 20, 2012, 9:25 pm
I think the problem with this, and BGM’s remark, is that guys can often see a girl as trying to initiate something when that’s the farthest thing from her mind, especially when she is drunk and a bit beyond the kind of awareness where she could give pointed hints about being completely uninterested…until it’s too late.
I was raped by the “friend” who was supposed to walk me home safely, who I had never (and particularly not on that night) flirted with, or shown any interest in. People get unintentionally black-out drunk sometimes, whether it’s because of the food they forgot to eat, or medications they shouldn’t have mixed with alcohol, or the drugs someone slipped them. The point is that you cant tell any of these from someone who willingly put themselves at risk. So who’s fault is it then?
Jiggs June 20, 2012, 6:14 pm
I really don’t understand why people on this site seem to like you.
ele4phant June 21, 2012, 12:22 am
Gee – I missed an interesting one today!
I agree that people shouldn’t use their drunkeness to excuse their poor decisions (one of many reasons I no longer feel compelled to go out and get trashed – that and I hate hangovers). But I do think for men (and women) it should be a:
“Well duh. If someone is obvisouly so drunk they are sloppy, they aren’t really able to consent. And I really shouldn’t have sex with them, at least not until they are sober again.” Not to avoid being accused of rape, but because morally, its not right.
Of course, if both parties have been drinking heavily, or if someone seems to be more sober than they really are, things get fuzzy.
I also want to ask, BGM (and I’m not trying to insinuate anything here) did you ever grab said friend of yours and say “Hey, you’re all in to this guy right now, but in the morning you may feel differently? This seems to be a reoccuring thing, its happened before. Maybe you should just get the dude’s number and then I’ll walk you home?”
Or, maybe in the sober light of day, did you ever have a sit down and have a little chat about his drinking problem/repeatly regretting his drunken choices?
I mean, we’re not obligated to babysit our friends, but I would hope if there was an outside observer who saw my destructive behavior they try to slap some sense into me. Even if we’re not responsible for others, its nice when people look out for one another.
Of course, maybe you did. And maybe that’s why he’s a semi-good friend you used to have.
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 1:32 am
Yeah, we did all that. I even said as much at least three different time… He’d get all pissed and tell me to butt the fuck out of his business. One time, another friend walked in on him busily BLOWING some random in the men’s room. The Boy Who Cried Rape was VERY into it and not shy at all. He even paused mid-slurp and turned to my friend and said, “He’s so hot, right?” But (of course!) by the next day it was “oh, woe is me… oooooh, i was so taken advantage of…”
He was an alcoholic mess who used alcohol as a way to have sex to get past his own homophobia…
And you know what? I suspect, that had he been a girl, somebody would have taken his bullshit protestations of innocence far too seriously and one fine day some poor shmuck would have been brought up on rape charges…
But, fortunately, we all knew what fucking rape actually was. To paraphrase my other friend: “You know, you really can’t drag some poor sap all the way across the bar so you can gleefully blow him in the men’s room and then expect people to take you seriously the next day about how that same guy took advantage of you…”
See, that was the thing. The Boy Who Cried Rape was always the aggressor. Nobody was dragging him into the men’s room… At any rate, we all tired of his silliness and eventually lost track of him. Maybe he went into rehab, who knows? He was never that good a friend and he was such a mess and one that was so self created we just kinda dropped him.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 4:59 pm
I’ll be honest. I only skimmed these comments, but I don’t agree with BGM at all. I don’t think this is a debate. There is no goddamn debate. Don’t fuck an unconscious person.
Jesus Christ.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:05 pm
I don’t think anyone is debating whether or not its acceptable to do that. Of course not.
I think its just that (or at least how I read it) while OF COURSE no one should ever do that to someone, just be careful out there, try to be safe, because there are very bad people out there waiting for a chance to pounce.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 5:22 pm
All I’m saying is I don’t have nearly as much sympathy for drunky-mc-drunk-drunk as I do for, say, a REAL victim. You know, somebody who is actually, you know, maybe conscious during the rape? And who is damn well 100 percent certain she was actually saying NO! at the time. If you can’t remember what happened, then how is there any proof of your side of the story whatsoever? Sorry, but I can’t take all these passed out wastoids very seriously. I just can’t.
Frankly, to actually take these as seriously truly diminishes what REAL rape victims go through. And it astounds me how few people can simply see that. To me, it’s obviously true.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:28 pm
Well if you can’t remember, how do you even know anything happened at all? I guess in some cases you can, or the signs are there, but if you can’t remember it happening, you obviously can’t remember saying no, then its pretty difficult to say its rape. If I got black out drunk and dumped beer all over my bed, I couldn’t exactly wake up and blame it on whoever else is home.
JK June 20, 2012, 5:45 pm
I´ve read before in another column where someone wrote in about a friend, who started off talking about the great one night stand she´d had, which then turned into having been raped (because she didn´t want people thinking she was “that kind of person”). I´m sure that like that there must be more cases.
I agree with you that if you can´t remember what the hell happened, you aren´t exactly in a position to say for sure it´s rape.
I know the only person responsible for a rape is the rapist, but I wish people would be more careful, if they feel like getting black out drunk, make sure there is someone with them that has their back.
Jiggs June 20, 2012, 6:16 pm
You don’t have to say no for it to be rape. If you are incapable of saying YES, that’s rape.
This is just more bullshit where if someone doesn’t scream the roof down then they’re not “really” being raped. Rape is rape.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 6:24 pm
But if you don’t remember what you said? How do you know you didn’t say yes. Seriously… And not everybody who IS drunk seems drunk. One of my best friends doesn’t drink very much, but when he does, and when he REALLY cuts loose — he really remains curiously lucid. Or seems to. Seriously, he appears totally “with it” all night long… But then, the next day, he has blacked out on much of the evening… He often doesn’t remember how we got home from the bar for instance, even though he was the one insisting we all take a cab, calling for it, and then paying for it… There are often whole chunks of the night missing with him — the main reason he only does this about once every year or so…
SweetsAndBeats June 20, 2012, 6:43 pm
Okay, I’ll be brutally honest here. I’m like your friend when I “party hard”. I enunciate clearly, never lose my balance, never act drunk (except for dancing a lot and volunteering to do crazy stunts). I’ve seen videos of myself while heavily intoxicated and I just look like a girl having a lot of fun. But usually, I end up having to ask people what happened, because I only have random bits and pieces of memory. Have I ended up having sex with men who I wouldn’t have if I had been sober? Yes, absolutely. Have I been so mortified, and even felt a little gross, upon receiving texts from such a guy asking me when he’d see me again? Yes. But usually I at least remember actively acting sexual toward him, if not actually having sex, and therefore I do not press rape charges against him. The social norm is still that Tipsy But Not Sloshed = Sex Is Okay. So, it’s often very very very hard for less drunk (or even a bit tipsy) people to determine if their desired sexual partner of the evening is okay or not, ESPECIALLY if that person is acting lusty. And thanks to that social norm, most people who want to get their freak on are wont to default on the side of “they’re tipsy but they’re fine, let’s do this”. It’s almost impossible for a man to tell if a girl is past the line of consent (unless she’s stumbling and puking and things like that – if THAT’S the case, yes it is rape), especially since if you ASK a person if they’re super drunk they’re more likely to say, “Nah, I’m fine”. So this whole ‘Grey Area Rape’ thing should not involve such finger pointing and name calling against men who sleep with tipsy girls who later cry rape. Yes, there is such a thing as intoxicated rape. Yes, there is also such a thing as ‘Oh shit, I got wasted and slept with someone I didn’t want to, but my actions lead to that occurrence so I’m not going to ruin that poor bastard’s life’. It’s called personal accountability.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 6:35 pm
Again. I’m not saying that. I don’t think anyone here is. Participate in a debate Dont put words in my mouth.
Point was if you don’t remember how can you say you said yes no maybe hell no etc.
Can you share an answer to my actual question without saying I dont think rape is real? Seriously. I’m genuinely curious.
d2 June 21, 2012, 9:41 am
I will attempt to address your question l_b_h through the illustration of 5 different scenarios.
Scenario #1:
You are at a party and a cute guy offers to get you a refill on that glass of wine you just finished off. He brings back the wine but slips in a roofie. A bit later, you pass out from the roofie and the man has unwanted sex with you while you are unconscious. How could you claim you were raped? After all, you were unconscious and don’t remember whether you said “yes” or “no”.
Scenario #2:
You are at a party and you chat up a cute guy. You drink wine all evening and you always get your own refills. You are enjoying yourself and eventually become tipsy. A bit later, you pass out from the wine and the man has unwanted sex with you while you are unconscious. How could you claim you were raped? After all, you were unconscious and don’t remember whether you said “yes” or “no”.
Scenario #3:
You are at a party and you chat up a cute guy. You drink water all evening and you always get your own refills. A bit later, the man sneaks up behind you as you leave the party, clubs you on the head and has unwanted sex with you while you are unconscious. How could you claim you were raped? After all, you were unconscious and don’t remember whether you said “yes” or “no”.
Scenario # 4:
You are at a party and you chat up a cute guy. You drink water all evening and you always get your own refills. A bit later, the man ambushes you as you leave the party. He drags you off into the bushes and forces sex on you. You remember every agonizing second. He has a knife and you fear for your life so, as a survival strategy, you say nothing and don’t put up any resistance. How could you claim you were raped? After all, you didn’t say “no”.
Scenario # 5:
You are at a party and you chat up a cute guy. You drink water all evening and you always get your own refills. A bit later, the man ambushes you as you leave the party. He drags you off into the bushes and forces sex on you. You remember every agonizing second. You fight the entire time, continuously screaming “no”.
Applying your line of reasoning l_b_h, I shouldn’t have any sympathy for you in scenarios 1 – 3, and maybe not even in scenario 4. In fact, if I carry your reasoning to the letter, I shouldn’t even believe you when you say you were raped in any scenario except 5, because that is the only scenario where you definitively said “no”.
I would argue that a rape occurred in all 5 scenarios and that the perpetrator was 100% responsible in all 5 scenarios. The implication of your reasoning (whether intended or unintended) is that the perpetrator bears different degrees of culpability in the scenarios above, ergo the victim bears some responsibility for the actions of the perpetrator.
Nobody in this thread has disagreed with the idea that it is wise to take common-sense safety precautions and encourage others to do so.
What rape victims (and supporters of rape victims) find bothersome is the implication of your reasoning that the victim bears a portion of responsibility for the actions of the perpetrator.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 2:31 pm
Only read scenario one. Youre missing my actual question. How does one know if they were raped at all. Seriously. Ok I can be sure I passed out from being roofied, but how do I know what happened while I was passed out. You guys really are jumping to calling me basically a pro rapist for asking questions. It’s pretty crazy.
Lili June 21, 2012, 2:39 pm
You know LBH, you are asking valid questions and do seem to want to understand the situation better. I guess I’ll just recommend what I said before, think about volunteering for a rape crisis hotline. Its an eye opening experience and maybe it’ll help you see how to better educate others in a effective manner.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 2:49 pm
thanks, Lili. I have to say, I don’t misunderstand even one thing about rape.
My question applies to anything that happens when someone has no memory of it happening. I wasn’t asking how you could claim rape when you are sure that someone had sex with you while you are unconscious. I think that’s pretty fucking obvious. I was asking how you could claim rape if you don’t even know whether or not sex happened.
I think no one seems to comprehend that and are happy to misinterpret every word so they can point their finger and scream you are victim-blaming.
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 2:54 pm
Are you asking how does one tell if one has had intercourse the night before if one doesn’t actually remember the act? If that’s what you’re asking, the answer is that you can’t always tell, especially not without having a rape kit done by a health professional. Often times, though, the rapist is not exactly concerned with a victim’s comfort and safety and she will wake up sore. There might be bleeding or tearing, there might not. Can you tell when you’ve had sex the night before? I usually can.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 3:01 pm
ISEESHINY! FINALLY! Yes, that’s exactly what I was asking. Thank you. Oftentimes I canNOT tell, which is why I asked.
Of course, if I were blacked out, felt as though someone had sex with me and do not remember it, then I would go to the police/hospital to determine and proceed to say that I was in fact raped because if someone had sex with me without my consent, then I was raped. I don’t mean to sound condescending to you, just trying to be as clear and elementary as possible given this thread’s direction.
Lili June 21, 2012, 3:03 pm
Being black out drunk with no memory of your actions is frightening. I admit. However, lets shift the talk from rape to another crime, like car theft. What if when a person is black out drunk they ‘lose’ their car. It could have been stolen, Or the blacked out person could have said say Hi stranger, take my car and hand over the keys. Does that person not deserve to report the car stolen the next morning since it IS missing?
I think by focusing on this one particular aspect (the excessive drinking) we’re doing rape victims a HUGE disservice. I’m NOT advocating excessive drinking, at all, lets be clear on this and agree, I think being black out drunk is dangerous in SO MANY WAYS. But by deviating attention, the idea is t hat we’re dis empowering the REAL meat of the debate, which is what the other commentators are talking about. lets keep the focus on rapists and how effed up they are.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 3:09 pm
Lili, nothing to really discuss about rapists more than what you said, yes they are fucked up.
But your other thing, about the car, I’m going to quote you.
“Does that person not deserve to report the car stolen the next morning since it IS missing?”
I’m confused. Are you saying if your car is missing, and you have no idea whether it was stolen, given away by you as a gift or just parked in a spot you dont remember leaving it in,you should be allowed to say it was stolen? Isn’t it just missing, at least until you determine it was in fact stolen?
Lili June 21, 2012, 3:14 pm
You added the option of parking where I don’t remember it. Thats not in my original comment. I just mean that with the car, its MOST LIKELY that it was stolen, so should a person explore all other options before admitting to themselves that they should report it to the police and it was most probably stolen. Does their being blacked out drunk mean they have less legal repercussions?
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 3:24 pm
Ok, cool. So you would say your car was stolen, file a false police report about that, even though you have NO IDEA whether it was actually stolen or if you handed your keys to a stranger and said take my car. Mmhmm. I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with this point, but it makes no sense and doesn’t help any argument you think you might be making.
Lili June 21, 2012, 3:29 pm
Yeah, I’ll drop it. We’re seeing things from two completely different perspectives. And I know better than to argue without a whole armful of research and discovery docs with a lawyer 😉
Oh and I didn’t mean to offend you with asking about what you meant by providing all those details, its just a common kind of dismissive comment. Like, how dare you think THIS about me, since I have THIS fill in the blank which doesn’t discount the outrageous thing you said earlier. Collective you btw.
CatsMeow June 21, 2012, 3:49 pm
I’m sorry, I could see what you were asking, but I don’t know what the point of that line of questioning was. Were you going somewhere with that?
If I woke up with ZERO memory of what happened the night before, I would start by asking someone who was with me wtf happened, and if I had a suspicion that I was raped, I would go to the hospital.
Now maybe I said yes, no, or maybe – or maybe I wasn’t even conscious – but that doesn’t matter because if I’m THAT impaired, then I cannot legally consent. I know, I know…. with some people it’s hard to tell, but if there’s ANY question in your mind, then just don’t do it!
And I’ll address the issue of personal safety because it keeps coming up. I’m certainly not advocating for women or anyone else to throw caution to the wind and do whatever the hell you want, consequences be damned. I take safety precautions when I do anything. I carry mace, I lock my car doors, I try to be as aware as I can of my surroundings, if my gut tells me something is “off” then I listen to it. I would never tell someone to NOT do any of these things. If someone says, “Be careful!” I’m not going to take it as a personal insult.
But I’m also not going to say, “You must do this in order to avoid rape.” Might these things make my chances of getting raped a tiny bit smaller? Perhaps. But again, perhaps not – because the majority of rapes are committed by acquaintances, friends, boyfriends, partners, dates, etc. The problem with the statement, “Yes I would judge someone who went home with a stranger from a bar. That’s a good way to get raped” is that it implies that if that WERE to happen, then the victim was at wholly or partially responsible. Could you look a rape victim in the eye and say, “Well, if you hadn’t been so stupid/irresponsible/slutty… if you hadn’t disregarded common sense and personal safety… then you wouldn’t have been raped.” I hope no one would say that to someone’s face! But the thing is – when you talk amongst your friends and family, when you post on a public forum like this, that there are things you SHOULD DO in order to avoid rape, then that’s almost the same thing. Because all of us here who have been raped, or will be raped, are looking at this and thinking that we are going to be judged and shamed for whatever actions we took leading up to the crime that was committed against us, as if we don’t already feel enough guilt and shame. It is going to make us less likely to report it and get justice for said crime, to get help or therapy, or to even share our story with others who may be supportive.
Rape happens because we live in a society that trivializes and in some cases even condones it. Rape happens because of misogyny (Yes, I know that women commit rape and men are also victims, but I’m talking specifically here about rape by men against women) – because we live in a culture where a woman who dresses a certain way, who has multiple sex partners, who gets drunk and dances at a bar, who accepts a drink from a man who offers is either ASKING FOR IT or she OWES HIM SOMETHING. Many men think they are OWED sex! We’ve talked about this before! Many men see a girl who is drunk and think she is an easy target. Many men will try to get women drunk and lure us away from our friends for this very reason! Many men think that no means yes and yes means anal. THIS is why rape happens! And when we turn the conversation AWAY from the rapists, away from these attitudes that contribute to rape culture, and TOWARD the women who are “supposed” to behave a certain way, it’s NOT helping. “Whaaaaaat? Of COURSE I’m not victim blaming! I’m just saying that if she had behaved differently, with what I believe is ‘common sense’ then this wouldn’t have happened!”
And I’m not convinced that these lines of thinking have nothing to do with slut shame or the policing of women’s sexuality. It’s always, “Don’t dress like that” “Don’t drink too much” “Don’t flirt too much” “Don’t make out with him unless you’re willing to go ALL THE WAY you don’t want to be a cocktease do you?” “Don’t invite him in, of COURSE he’s going to think that’s an invitation for sex” etc.
So anyway, no, of course I’m not telling anyone to disregard their personal safety or to go against a gut feeling or to do ANYthing that you’re generally uncomfortable with. I just want to turn the conversation away from what a victim or potential victim “could have” or “should have” done because it doesn’t help anything, and really only serves to perpetuate rape culture. This is my belief. This is what I believe as a woman, as a feminist, as a counselor and as a survivor. I understand that people have different opinions. But this is mine.
Katie June 21, 2012, 4:21 pm
Cats, this I can get behind 100%. As long as you tell me that I can behave as I please -whether that be acting crazy at the party or leaving early because i feel it’s getting out of hand- and I’m not somehow furthering rape culture I’m on board.. Because really, furthering rape culture is the farthest thing from what I want to do. That’s why it angered me so much. That just the way I want to live is hurting others. That’s not what I want.
GatorGirl June 21, 2012, 4:03 pm
Jiggs, I think what some people are missing here is that being under the influence of alcohol makes you incapable of consenting. So, even if you’re wasted and give your consent it’s pretty much irrelevant because you’re not legally considered able to consent. (please keep in mind I am no expert in legal matters and this is just my understanding from college/my lawyer aunt)
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:46 pm
C’mon now. I know you don’t mean to equate spilling beer on your bed with the aftereffects of having been raped, but don’t you think they’re not really the same thing at all?
There are so many stories like this, but I knew Megan. I trained her to replace me in our work study program, and she’s a perfect example of this. She was a sweet girl and my sympathy for her and her family’s loss doesn’t evaporate- as BGM’s does- because she made one mistake. She was torn to shreds inside. So you CAN tell. The article details her injuries, if you feel like getting upset.
caitie_didnt June 20, 2012, 5:48 pm
yeah, the level of rape denial here right now is making me nauseous. I’m peacing out.
But seriously everyone, read this link and the link I posted. Don’t hide behind your opinions, take some time and expand your knowledge.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:52 pm
I’m leaving too. This whole thread is nauseating. I’m not even going to check it again because seriously WTF.
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 8:30 pm
Honestly, I don’t know why you guys didn’t do what I did, which was *not* bite BGM’s ridiculous, insensitive statement and go out and order two 1/4 litres of red wine. Why two 1/4 litres instead of one 1/2 litre? Well, I wanted to keep it a surprise. Will I or will I not over-drink?!? I met this lovely older lady named Cecile and we are BFFs now. She said my French was impeccable. She was drunk too.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:52 pm
No, you come on. You’re being ridiculous now.
My point was, which you chose to entirely gloss over…Well if you can’t remember, how do you even know anything happened at all? I guess in some cases you can, or the signs are there, but if you can’t remember it happening, you obviously can’t remember saying no, then its pretty difficult to say its rape.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 6:31 pm
You must’ve explained it in the links or another thread I didnt see. Curious though, so share again if ur up to it.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:57 pm
I’m not being ridiculous; I already explained how a rape victim knows they are raped, which went right to the heart of your point. I wasn’t attacking you, didn’t mean it to sound that way, and I don’t think I did.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:53 pm
Since you couldn’t get past my example, here’s an easier one. If I blacked out and X happened, but I have no knowledge or memory of it happening, how can I claim it did if I don’t even know it did.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 6:15 pm
I agree here with LBH. The person will know they had sex… But how can they REALLY know that they didn’t agree to it? Seriously? My Boy Who Cried Rape example did this sort of thing all the time…
Savannah June 20, 2012, 9:28 pm
ENTHUSIASTIC CONSENT!! Look it up! These attitudes are medieval and YOU are part of the problem of the vicious cycle of rape, shame, denial and doubt.
And don’t worry- thousands of men and women every day get away with rape, its not like we have an epidemic of innocent men in jail for rape-HA. This thread is gross.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 2:27 pm
What?! I simply asked a question about memory. If someone has no memory of x how can they say x happened if they don’t remember it happening in the first place.
I’m kinda thinking you replied to the wrong post actually.
Savannah June 21, 2012, 9:33 pm
You didn’t look up enthusiastic consent then.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:27 pm
I don’t think a person who was raped while drunk is any less of a rape victim than I was. They are REAL victims, regardless of what you think. They’re victims under the law, and they’re going to have to live with having been victims for the rest of their lives no matter what you think about it.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:17 pm
I’m only pointing out that personal responsibility goes both ways. Whenever rape comes up, people talk a whole lot about the “personal responsibility” of the victim, and rarely about the responsibility of the rapist. And to further that- the responsibility of society to frame the conversation as “This is what rape is. Don’t rape someone. If you do the consequences are XYZ,” but often it’s only the consequences that are talked about as if that’s the only reason not to have sex with a person who can’t consent because they’re drunk or high or whatever. Full stop.
Also. BGM IS saying a person deserves to be raped if they’re irresponsible:
“Sorry, but if a man or woman drinks to that point where they are practically unconscious, eh, they pretty much deserve what’s coming to them.”
And that’s a disgusting thing to say, even by BGM standards.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:26 pm
Totally agree on the personal responsibility of BOTH, however, I just don’t really connect a rapist with someone who will ever have personal responsibility. So maybe its preaching to the person whose odds of listening are higher? Know what I mean?
I find the ‘dont have sex with a drunk person’ thing a tough line to draw though, to be totally honest. My SO loves when I’m a couple drinks in. I’m sure millions of people enjoy having sex with someone they met at a bar earlier after throwing a few back. So to teach Do Not Have Sex with a drunk person Ever is kind of tough.
No one, no one, ever deserves to be raped. I think I spoke up intially to say that just because I warn people to be smart and safe does NOT mean I am saying if you aren’t smart or safe, you deserve to be raped. Make sense?
Hobbesnblue June 20, 2012, 8:54 pm
“Totally agree on the personal responsibility of BOTH, however, I just don’t really connect a rapist with someone who will ever have personal responsibility. So maybe its preaching to the person whose odds of listening are higher? Know what I mean?”
Exactly. While I know there are grey-area rapists–the “oh dude, this drunk chick wanted me so bad, she was falling all over me”–that could benefit from some education, generally speaking, the kind of person cold-blooded enough to blatantly sexually assault someone isn’t going to call their plans off thanks to some girls with “take back the night” and “yes means yes” signs. I’m not sure why one would expect ‘educating’ a depraved, evil type of person to be effective at all; it’s not like they don’t know it’s a terrible thing to do. Same reason we don’t have “Don’t molest kids!” campaigns.
guest June 20, 2012, 9:30 pm
I think you’re hugely overestimating the level of awareness that the average rapist has. I’d venture a guess to say that most don’t think of it as rape, or consider themselves to be “one of those guys”. Possibly because rape as we recognize it through popular media is primarily an overtly violent occurrence perpetrated by deranged or sociopathic individuals.
CatsMeow June 21, 2012, 4:45 pm
Actually, there was a study done a few years ago where they asked guys if they had ever raped someone and they would say NO (of course), but if you asked it differently (without using the word ‘rape’) then they would say yes. Like, “Have you ever had intercourse with someone who did not want you to but were too intoxicated to resist?” and they would answer YES. Like, WAY more dudes answered “yes” than even the researchers had anticipated.
Kristina June 21, 2012, 4:47 pm
@Cats I remember that study!..it was quite shocking.
Brad June 22, 2012, 7:40 am
“they asked guys if they had ever raped someone and they would say NO”… “with someone who did not want you to but were too intoxicated to resist? and they would answer YES”
…the fuck?! That’s some mighty impressive mental gymnastics to make those two statements fit together in harmony. So much for thinking it was obvious that the definition of rape was any form of nonconsentual sex…
Brad June 21, 2012, 7:06 am
Completely agree with your last paragraph. The thing that makes a rapist a rapist is the very same thing that will prevent education from working in the first place. And that is the fact that a rapist doesn’t give a shit what you think or what your opinion is. Only one person’s desires matters and that’s his own, so if he wants to fuck you and you don’t then that’s your problem. The only thing that deters these sorts of assholes is the fear of getting caught. The ones that do stranger rapes choose their victims based on their calculations of getting away with it, and when they do it it’s because they felt confident enough that they could.
That’s why we tell women to go places in groups, don’t get pass out drunk in public or at a party, don’t walk alone in isolated areas at night, don’t go anyplace private with a guy you don’t know, to be aware of your surroundings, etc, etc. Nobody deserves to be raped, but not every woman has the same probability of being raped. A woman’s choices/behavior can affect that probability to a certain extent. I think that’s what the one side is trying to say. You can’t prevent the possibility of it happening to you entirely (nothing/no one can), but you can reduce your odds a little bit by being safe. It’s the same concept of a seat belt in a car. Wearing a seat belt won’t stop you dying in a car accident 100% of the time, but it sure can reduce the odds of that happening.
Savannah June 21, 2012, 7:53 am
Some of your assumptions/conclusions are problematic. Especially when you consider an ‘enthusiastic consent’ school of thought. The thing is 1 in 5 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in her life (in the US) and that number represents a larger amount of men than the a “depraved, evil type of person” charter represents or that our culture imagines rapists to be. Rapists are not simply rapists. They are the men (and some few women) who represent all spectrums of our society. They are not hooded demons roaming around the streets. They are usually instead boyfriends, teachers, friends of friends etc. So yes in fact the education of both genders can be helpful in reducing sexual assaults and rapes.
And again the probability of women getting raped is really only in correlation to one thing, being around someone who is willing to rape them. No one else is trying to get you in a car accident so a seat belt analogy to a misplaced emphasis on what i would call gendered security theater simplified and glosses over the predatory nature of rape.
Brad June 21, 2012, 8:38 am
Well the reason we focus on stranger rape is because that’s the only form of rape that a woman’s behavior/actions even have a snowball’s chance in hell of affecting her chances of being raped. Maybe if a woman goes places in a group, or doesn’t jog at night she’s reducing her chances of being raped from 20% down to 19.5%. Functionally, it might not be making a significant difference, but gaining 0.5% decreased liklihood of being raped is still worth it in my opinion. But I don’t really think there’s anything a woman can really do to reduce the chances of getting raped by her boyfriend, uncle, close friend, etc. Rape in those cases I think are so unexpected in nearly all cases that there isn’t anything she can do to reduce the chances of it happening. So if I gave the impression that I think women can reduce their chances of being raped by a loved one or a person that she trusts (which is 3-4 times more likely) then I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear.
Lili June 21, 2012, 10:42 am
Brad, You’re missing Savannah’s point. I mean all the rapists don’t send out a memo saying ‘we’ll be hanging out on 3rd ave from noon to 3’ and all I have to do is avoid 3rd ave to avoid a rape. Trying to predict where a ‘stranger rapist’ will be at an exact time/place etc is like…me trying to accurately predict the number of people wearing white shirts in hong kong at the moment. There are SO MANY factors that impact that, and most of them I don’t have the knowledge on.
Brad June 21, 2012, 10:57 am
Lili, I think you misunderstood my point by focusing on a few examples I listed. The point I was making is that there are things people can do to reduce their chances of being a victim of a stranger rape. The difference in percentages might be tiny, but they’re still worth doing.
Lili June 21, 2012, 11:14 am
Ok, I’ll bite. What are these things that statistically reduce my chances? I’ll even throw one out there that I’ve done. I wasn’t born an African American Female. They have the HIGHEST rape percentage.
Brad June 21, 2012, 1:00 pm
Lili, I wasn’t referring to any formal mathmatically proven things, but the motherly advice type things. My belief is that they probably have some sort of effect on a woman’s chances, but how large of one I don’t think is something that you could accurately quantify. But it’s those things like not walking alone at night in a secluded area downtown, accepting rides from strangers, accepting drinks from strangers, and other things to that effect. You can’t really quantify them any, so my point was that they couldn’t hurt to do even if they’re only lowering your chance by some measily %. So take all the steps that you can to limit your chances, but beyond that it’s out of your control.
Savannah June 21, 2012, 1:12 pm
“The ones that do stranger rapes choose their victims based on their calculations of getting away with it, and when they do it it’s because they felt confident enough that they could.”
This statement is where the problem is though. Yes, EVERYONE should take precautions but women should not be told rhetoric like this. that people raped because of the choices I made, they they calculated that based on my choices I could be raped. That because of a mistake I made, a miscalculation on my part I gave someone the opportunity to rape me. I can be raped because there are rapists.
The fact that this argument is what is being emphasized here instead of the many many other issues dealing with rape is symptomatic of the larger problems our society faces in our attitudes about sexual responsibility, intent and sex crimes.
Lili June 21, 2012, 1:16 pm
Brad, read Iseeshiny’s comment, she said it all really well and probably more clearer than I will, but I’ll try anyway. Its the motherly type advice that is all too common, but isn’t REALLY HELPFUL at preventing rape. Its just not. I know that society likes to think it is, but thats a false assumption. I’ll give you another example of prevention tips. Not wearing headphones. Seriously. I get that its about ‘being aware of all times’ of your surroundings but, if I’m on the bus and walking 4 blocks to work, I want to listen to my ipod while I commute. Is that reckless of me? Are you going to prevent your mother, your sister, your future wife and daughter from owning headphones because its potentially not safe to not be 100% aware of your surroundings at all times? I really hate to think that each time I decide to sing along to Call Me Maybe I’m increasing my factors of being raped, even if its .001% thats just not ok.
Brad June 21, 2012, 5:28 pm
“That because of a mistake I made, a miscalculation on my part I gave someone the opportunity to rape me.”
This feels like you’re putting words in my mouth (though I’m sure that wasn’t your intent). You have to live your life and try to have as much fun as you can doing it. You shouldn’t hide yourself away in a bunker fearing rapists. But whether we like it or not, certain things do increase your chances of tragedy finding you. It sucks but that’s the way it is I’m afraid. The woman who likes to have fun in bars probably has a greater chance of it happening to her compared to the woman that stays at home and reads. Is going to the bar a mistake then? No. I’m not saying that. You didn’t “give” the rapist an opportunity to rape you. The rapist’s decision to rape is outside of your control. You just got unlucky in that case. He could just as easily broken into your house and did it. There’s no magic “safe zone” that I secretly believe all women need to stay in. But it would be counter-productive to deny that there are a few limited factors in your control that you can do/not do to minimize your chances. I’m sorry if that idea makes you uncomfortable or offends you, but that’s the way I see it. Maybe thinking of it like extra credit is the better way to say it? If you choose not to do it then it doesn’t count against your grade, but doing it might give you a few extra points.
Like I said above, taking preventative steps is probably a good habit but they can’t prevent tragedy from occurring. By nature humans try to look for patterns as a way of predicting and explaining things. It’s a good idea to wear sunscreen when going to the beach. Going to the beach increases your exposure to sunburn. You should wear sunscreen and reapply it frequently to reduce your chances of getting burnt, but if you do get burnt I wouldn’t say “well you shouldn’t have gone to be beach.” If you like the ocean and enjoy tanning then I think you should go to the beach. But if you choose not to wear sunscreen and you end up getting sunburn it’s only natural to wonder if you still would have gotten burnt if you had sunscreen on. Maybe it would have prevented it, maybe it wouldn’t have. I think it’s a shame that rape victims blame themselves in addition to their attackers. And it’s a serious problem that many rapes go unreported because women feel reporting it is a waste of time because the odds of a conviction are low because she’d been out drinking the night before for example. But despite that, I don’t think we should stop discussing preventive practices. In addition to efforts to improve rape education for men. Should be a required part of sex ed in high school.
Savannah June 21, 2012, 9:41 pm
Brad- women know these ‘preventative measures’ by heart, since we get told them every day of our lives. That is not where we need education. Its also why women do this: “I think it’s a shame that rape victims blame themselves in addition to their attackers.”
I also don think this is correct: “The woman who likes to have fun in bars probably has a greater chance of it happening to her compared to the woman that stays at home and reads.” and neither do you it seems: “He could just as easily broken into your house and did it”
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 5:32 pm
Admittedly, I don’t have A LOT of patience for fucking drunks. Why? Drunks have KILLED three of my good friends. Not one. Not two. But three. Including one of my very first lovers and the one I often wonder what COULD have been had we ever reconnected… And this was in three separate incidents. Three separate drunk driving crashes all brought on by people who were fucking idiots and thought it was cool to drink themselves oblivion.
All of whom DESERVED to die for what the did, but (of course!) none did.
Instead it was my fucking friends that got splattered all across the road. Or even more gruesome! CUT NONE TOO CLEANLY IN HALF after some fuckwad smashed their new car into first my pedestrian ex boyfriend and then a lamp post.
I’ve learned to save my sympathy in life for those who truly need it. Not drunken idiots who don’t respect themselves enough to take even the most basic care of themselves…
wendykh February 8, 2013, 2:10 am
Um.
*Drivers* killed your friends.
Not drunks.
Not the same.
Drunks being synonymous with drunk driving is EXTREMELY a US Centric thing.
maeday77 June 21, 2012, 7:49 pm
You’re forgetting that BGM doesn’t have standards when it comes to social interaction, apparently.
JenjaRose March 10, 2013, 5:54 pm
I’m just gonna jump in a point out that the fair and just consequence for overdoing it on alcohol is a hangover, not some stranger putting his d*ck in you while you’re blacking out. I’d also like to point out that getting drunk is neither a crime nor a cruelty to others (unless you’re driving) and, as such, it doesn’t really “deserve” ANY kind of punishment, much less rape.
What other bad decisions are we now going to believe deserve punishment by rape? She overate at Chipotle to the point that she feels sick. RAPE HER! She was supposed to be writing a term paper but wound up spending hours watching YouTube videos of cats. RAPE HER! She wore THOSE pants with THAT top?!?! RAPE HER!
What a wonderful world.
katie June 20, 2012, 5:27 pm
dont waste your breath, everyone. i tried to use reason yesterday to talk about how looking out for ones personal safety and victim blaming is never the same thing, but apparently in the society we live in talking at all about rape and sexual assault relating to taking any measures to your own personal safety (or the safety of people you love) is victim blaming.
and also, somehow this doesnt apply to any other crime. so taking measures to protect yourself from getting robbed is ok, but doing the same to protect against rape is not.
bluesunday June 20, 2012, 5:40 pm
THIS. Just because you’re being responsible about your personal safety, doesn’t mean you’re taking responsibility for any harm that comes to you. If you’re walking around in the bad end of town at night, you’re going to conceal your wallet. You’re not going to walk around waving hundred dollar bills and go “well society should teach the robbers not to rob”. The robbers KNOW what they’re doing is wrong, and they don’t care. You need to protect yourself.
caitie_didnt June 20, 2012, 5:35 pm
actually, go read this:
This is why having a conversation about precautions and personal safety isn’t productive when addressing victims and survivors of sexual assault.
(read the comments, they are very enlightening).
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:40 pm
Ok, ok, I’m seeing a distinction here between what a lot of us are saying, and what you’re saying re: being careful.
I am saying to say that to anyone before a night out on the town.
I am NOT saying to someone who just got raped that they should’ve been more careful.
There really is a huge difference and I hope a rational person can see that.
caitie_didnt June 20, 2012, 5:43 pm
Okay, but read the link and the comments.
Everybody KNOWS to take care of their personal safety. It’s basic common sense. So…what about the women who got raped WHILE taking “reasonable precautions”? or after doing everything right? What more should they have done?
The problem with the “well, all you have to do is be careful” mentality is that it sets up an us vs. them dichotomy, where if you’re a Good Girl (TM) and is always safe and careful nothing bad will ever happen to you. Sadly, because the world is a scary and unfair place, that is not true. It doesn’t truly matter how many precautions you take, your number could simply be up one day.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:50 pm
I know to be careful too, but I’ve also had lapses in judgment, drank way too much and have put myself in dangerous positions. I’m not insulted when my friends or SO tell me to be careful, remember, don’t drink too much. That’s great advice imo. So no, I don’t think everyone ALWAYS KNOWS to be careful.
To the girl who did everything right and was super careful and still got raped, I say the same thing I say to any rape victim. That is horrible. Some people are monsters. I feel terrible for you.
No one is saying all you have to do is be careful and then you will never get raped. No one at all is saying that. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard and its not fair for you to claim anyone is saying that.
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 5:59 pm
PS — If everybody KNEW how to take care of themselves, nobody would be getting falling down drunk to fucking begin with…
wendykh February 8, 2013, 2:21 am
There is nothing wrong with being falling down drunk.
E June 20, 2012, 9:30 pm
I believe that there should be more awareness about consent, especially among college age men. At the same time, it’s simply naive to think “let’s teach men not to rape and then we will all be safe.” That seems to be the thing among many upper-class, white feminists. I am a feminist, but a realistic feminist. Many women don’t take precautions to be safe, just as many men are stupid and don’t realize if a girl is staggering around she’s too drunk to fuck.
wendykh February 8, 2013, 2:22 am
Wow that’s so disrespectful of men. They’re all stupid idiots who can’t figure out “DON’T FUCK UNLESS SHE SAYS YES WHILE SOBER.”
GatorGirl June 21, 2012, 4:12 pm
I respectfullly disagree with “Everybody KNOWS to take care of their personal safety.” I had no idea about basic things like the buddy system and double checking the doors and windows are locked before bed when I went off into the real world. I grew up in a bubble- we leave our car keys in the car, my parents house doens’t even have working locks, and I routinely went places in my small town in the dark alone. I had no freaking idea that there were bad people (including people you know) will take advantage of you. So I do think it is nessisary to educate, or at least remind everyone of these “reasonable precautions”. I gave my sister a talk as she is going off to college in the fall because she grew up in the same bubble as I did. Not everyone grows up with street smarts.
And I do agree that “your number could be up one day” but why not remind people to do the little things that might help starve off that day for just a little longer?!
bittergaymark June 20, 2012, 5:58 pm
Yeah, I think it’s abundantly clear that some people have no common sense when it comes to this issue. They just don’t.
TaraMonster June 20, 2012, 5:37 pm
Thank you for being much calmer than I am right now. I generally stay away from discussing this topic, but something in me just snapped when I read BGM’s comment.
katie June 20, 2012, 6:38 pm
ok, so how about this:
a girl is at a bar, drinking. a guy tries to talk her into going home with him. she thinks to herself, this seems sketchy. im not comfortable with this, this guy seems creepy, and i think this is putting myself in danger. im not going to do this. so she says no to him. he still tries and tries, and she just shuts him down. so, he finds someone else to go home with. the next day, the girl finds out that the guy who wanted her to come home with him raped the girl he ended up going home with.
in that situation, did the girl who chose not to go home victim blame whoever did end up getting raped?
i dont think so. her decisions, first off, mean nothing to the other girl. and also, the others girls decisions mean nothing to the first’s. but would that girl be happy she made that choice? you bet your ass she would. she would think to herself, wow. i made the choice not to put myself in a situation i felt was sketchy, and i avoided something bad potentially happening. and that does not make her a victim blamer. that also does not mean that whoever ends up getting raped by the creep at the bar deserved it, asked for it, or should have “known better”. it means that something bad happened to her that was out of her control. one person making a decision about their personal safety does not automatically mean that all others who do not decide as they do have somehow earned a punishment.
katie June 20, 2012, 6:43 pm
and also, one last thought:
if at any point in our society’s future, like now, we get to the point where trying to take any kind of control of your own safety is wrong, our society is going somewhere i do not want to go. there is NEVER anything wrong with looking out for yourself, listening to your gut, and getting yourself out if situations become sketchy. obviously, what those certain situations look like will vary from person to person.. and that doesnt mean that those who take more “risks” are more deserving of some sort of punishment.
i mean, we all talk about that book The Gift Of Fear- that is just one huge victim blaming manual, isnt it?
as someone said above, “Just because you’re being responsible about your personal safety, doesn’t mean you’re taking responsibility for any harm that comes to you”
Lili June 20, 2012, 9:13 pm
I wasn’t going to comment today, but I feel like I have to step in one last time to present my point. Hopefully I can do it in a more clearer manner today because there aren’t so many threads and I’m trying to address you and your comments specifically because I think i’ve somehow offended and confused you into thinking that I’m some advocate against personal protection. I’m not. I’m against the implication that its helpful to discuss what LED to the crime (and ANY CRIME) vs the committer of the crime. Which is what your comments led me to believe, if thats not your thinking at all, well its how your framing your arguments, so maybe phrase it differently.
Ok, so first of all the thing I want to address is your comment above about how if it happened anyway despite your precautions you’d know in your heart you tried your best. I’m sorry to be assuming, but this to me illustrates that you’ve never spoken to ANY rape or abuse victims EVER because otherwise you’d know that SHE ALWAYS blames herself. I’ve worked with a lot of abuse victims, And i’m talking about working with people in therapy and group settings and what they’re crying about when they’re processing triggers. Read blogs of people processing childhood abuse, THEY BLAME THEMSELVES. VICTIMS ALWAYS DO, they think I wish i hadn’t done fill in the blank. They always do. So, to say that any level of precaution is enough is insulting to nth degree. Seriously, think about volunteering with a rape crisis shelter or a domestic abuse hotline. Listen to the justifications these women are giving when explaining what happened to them, like if only I had let him take that meth he wouldn’t have beaten me so bad type stuff, it’ll open your mind if you really try to listen with a sympathetic ear.
But back to your comments on personal safety, look I get that its scary to think that rapists are out there. I get that people prefer to fixate on the stranger rapes vs the ones done by family members or boyfriends etc. If a person has ANY hint of anxiety issues/depression/pessimism its easier to weave a blanket of protection and say well, I look out for myself, this has a less chance of happening to me because I did this and this. Thats not true. At all. I know, its terrifying, and makes some people never want to leave the house but the fact of the matter is, like Kristina said:
“In my experience, many people have no explanation for WHY someone raped another (since their minds are complex and sick to begin with), so it becomes easier to stop focusing on the why’s and the prevention of that and instead focus on how victims can prevent such attacks. It becomes such a scapegoat to do that. In order to prevent something, you have to get to the root of it, not the result. Just my thoughts on the matter.” Read this. Read it again.
Your comments about personal safety are fine. They’re good life advice and I personally follow a lot of them. But please don’t ever try to connect them with the victims of crimes. Any type of crimes. Lets shift it to muggings, to be less emotionally charged. If a person is mugged, I bet they’d doubt their decision to do a specific behavior (like where a gold watch or walk down a specific street) but in reality, this is america. They have the RIGHT to wear the watch an walk down the street with a reasonable basic human expectation that no sane person will accost them. The person that does the robbing has the issue. NOT the victim. Under your logic of since I do this and this I am lessening my chances of this, what would you fill it with. I avoid wearing gold watches to not be mugged? Really? I’m sorry but If I like my watch, I’ll wear it out. I bought it to wear it.
And to go back to the directly above comment about the two girls and the bar dude. What i’m detecting is a sense of smugness from the person who rejected the creep. Like Oh Phew, my sensors are better than the poor victims. Thats not helpful to anyone. Sure, it reassures rejecter girl that her creep factor was right, Ok, in this case it was. Good for her. BUT how will HER personal creep alert dectecter help end rape culture. It won’t. I think a lot of us here are saying we want to END the focus on the victim’s behavoriors and shift it solely to the rapist. you keep bringing up personal safety, which I get is tied in your mind. It is for a lot of people, but thats not helpful at ending the problem. We’re trying to draw attention on how to end rape culture values, if thats too lofty a goal for you to think is possible, we know we’re idealists. But people who try an change the world usually end up making a better impact than the ones who sit back and adhere to misogyny.
Ok, thats my bit. I think its covered what was really bothering me. Shout out to Iwanna and Tara an Caitie_didnt for trying to educate. You guys rock. Keep it up, I’m going to yoga to meditate.
Lili June 20, 2012, 9:17 pm
And Kristina! Sorry I forgot you after I even quoted you!!!
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 9:21 pm
Wow this was an awesome comment. You said everything I wanted to only much, much better. The analogy involving the watch is spot on.
katie June 20, 2012, 9:42 pm
alright,
“I’m against the implication that its helpful to discuss what LED to the crime (and ANY CRIME) vs the committer of the crime.” — this theory is great, but i gotta agree with lets be honest about this, you really arent going to change the committer of the crime. they arent going to listen to you, because there is something wrong with them. so really, all i have control of is how i act and how i interact with all the other people who have issues. thats why in my own life, i will try to control myself so that my life doesnt even lead me to the crazies who wont listen to reason. can i guarantee it? no. will i try? yes.
“So, to say that any level of precaution is enough is insulting to nth degree.” –i dont think its insulting. i think its taking some sort of control over your life, whatever kind you can, and trying to keep yourself safe. its kind of, if in the process of a crime, you fight back tooth and nail instead of just going along with it and letting it all happen. its taking some sort of control, some sort of ownership of your life that your not just some butterfly that can be blown anywhere by the will of the wind. as that butterfly, i want to try to fly where i want, not just let the wind carry me, you know? even as a butterfly, i cant *really* fly against the wind, im gonna try my hardest. if that offends you, please feel free to let the wind take you wherever it wants.
“I avoid wearing gold watches to not be mugged? Really? I’m sorry but If I like my watch, I’ll wear it out. I bought it to wear it.” –once again, great in theory, but were talking about the real world. in the real world, if you dont want your watch to get stolen/get stabbed in a mugging, you dont wear gold watches in bad neighborhoods. that has nothing to do with you having an “issue” that prevents you wearing your watch- and it does mean that the people who would do the mugging still do HAVE an issue. ultimately, though, it actually helps you… you get to keep your watch, and you wont potentially die of stab wounds in a dark alley. if thats all i have to do -put a little thought into the neighborhood im going to be at/remember what im wearing- to keep my awesome gold watch and maybe even my life? i do that.
“What i’m detecting is a sense of smugness from the person who rejected the creep.” –i have no idea where you got this from. directly what i said- “and that does not make her a victim blamer. that also does not mean that whoever ends up getting raped by the creep at the bar deserved it, asked for it, or should have “known better”. it means that something bad happened to her that was out of her control. one person making a decision about their personal safety does not automatically mean that all others who do not decide as they do have somehow earned a punishment.” i’ll paste that last sentence again, because thats really the meat of it- “one person making a decision about their personal safety does not automatically mean that all others who do not decide as they do have somehow earned a punishment”.
and yes, i agree with you about being idealists. crime is always going to happen. it happened back in biblical times, it happens now, it happens all over the world, everyday. when you find a way to stop it, thats great. please share the secret- im sure everyone in the world will want to know it (and please, dont limit it to stopping rapes- please stop all crime). but in the meantime, i am going to do everything i can to keep myself safe from any type of danger that happens to me. and if i victim blame myself by doing that, and if im somehow “furthering” crime culture by doing that? well, sorry, but atleast im pretty sure ill be safe. because ill feel safe. and thats all that matters to me.
i feel like you would rather us all just leave our doors unlocked, not think about that gut feeling weird guys give you, leave your car running, ect… just in the name of being able to blame the people who do wrong, just to prove a point that they need punishment. if you want to be that martyr, i guess thats your choice. but my choice is to be safe, and so please dont judge me for that either.
katie June 20, 2012, 10:23 pm
i mean, what kind of system would you like to see? we have a system where you can tell authority figures that something bad happened, they get a fair trial, and if they are found guilty of the bad thing they did, they get punished. we all know that our system is flawed, but honestly, ANY justice system is going to be flawed… just like any healthcare system is flawed, every election process is flawed, ect…
we could go all vanilla sky on it and create a machine that predicts future crimes. that was vanilla sky, wasnt it? minority report? tom cruise was in it, i dunno. that would be a nice system… until it gets flawed, just like it did in the movie.
i guess i just dont understand how you would like the world to be, realistically. i would agree with every kitten and rainbow filled world you could come up with, but unfortunately we cant have that in real life…
i feel like either i’m screwed in my views because im a victim blamer, or else i live free and without any care or concern and i screw myself over by going against my instincts and my own views of the world. honestly, i guess im just selfish, but i would rather not screw over myself, so thats why i feel the way i do. i am too selfish to think, those people are the ones with a problem, and so if they hurt me, oh well. thats what the universe decided that day. i am powerless against it. i think, i am going to do what i feel is in my power to make my life better, safer, happier.
Lili June 20, 2012, 11:59 pm
I don’t want to get into it again, I’ve stated my point, you’ve stated yours, we’re not meeting in between, it happens.
I firmly believe in Gandhi’s saying “be the change you want to see in the world” will I create a ideal world on my own or in my lifetime, no. But I like being a part of the solution instead of a part of the problem. Think about where you want to stand. If you feel selfish, give back. In any way. If you’re ever looking for a volunteer opportunity, think about rape crisis hot-lines and domestic abuse shelters.
katie June 21, 2012, 8:01 am
im sorry, but i will never agree that throwing my own personal safety to the wind is “being the change I want to see in the world”
Lili June 21, 2012, 10:31 am
Repeating myself again, but that’s NOT what I’m saying. At all. I would NEVER jog naked at midnight through downtown Seattle to ‘be the change’ I’m just saying that I’m not arrogant enough to believe being assaulted (or not) is in my control because the ONLY thing that can prevent assault is the person COMMITTING IT. They’re sick and twisted, but sadly they’re the ones who have the power.
Kristina June 20, 2012, 10:34 pm
Well said Lili!
d2 June 21, 2012, 1:41 am
Thanks, Lili.
Nadine June 21, 2012, 6:44 am
Lili, I love you. I couldn’t debate this it made my heart hurt but thank you for being logical and calm.
CatsMeow June 21, 2012, 11:54 am
Standing ovation. Savannah, TaraMonster, Caitie, Kristina, and Lili – I’m glad I’m not the only nauseated by the direction this thread took, and I’m glad I’m not the only one willing to speak out. Thanks, all of you.
iwannatalktosampson June 21, 2012, 12:03 pm
You forgot about me! 🙁
CatsMeow June 21, 2012, 2:11 pm
And you!
Wendy June 20, 2012, 3:55 pm
This is Claire’s first post, btw. Good job, Claire!
Budj June 20, 2012, 3:58 pm
Is that Claire in the picture?
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:04 pm
I think its Lindsay Lohan. Hopefully the photos from the late 90s and ClaireBear will take it as a compliment?
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:09 pm
Yay Clair Bear!
honeybeenicki June 20, 2012, 4:20 pm
That is a name that will definitely stick around here. I wish I had a nickname like that (I mean, other than honey bee I suppose). For my whole life starting in kindergarten, I was “Chipmunk.”
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:23 pm
Oh but honeybee is lovely! I like saying honeybee. Almost as much as I like saying “poutines,” my new favorite word and food group.
honeybeenicki June 20, 2012, 5:23 pm
I don’t mind honey bee just because of the source, but overall its a little too cutesy for me. A lot of my friends call me the Dream Crusher, which works just fine for me 😛 Then again, they also accuse me of always scowling. I tell them that’s just my face.
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:21 pm
Claire Bear, do you like Care Bears? Because I do. And I’m picturing you as a Care Bear. Good Luck Bear was my favorite. Do you have a four leaf clover on you belly?
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:30 pm
That was my favorite too!!! Did you ever see the show Little Bear? It was my favorite to watch with my daughter. I still call her Little Bear 90% of the time. Ok, ok I shortened it to Bear since she is “a big girl now, moooom!”
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:35 pm
I did! But I didn’t have the excuse of having a kid. I see a lot of kid movies. I always think I need to get a kid so I can go to these things without feeling like a weirdo.
honeybeenicki June 20, 2012, 5:21 pm
I love Good Luck Bear! I have a four leaf clover on my chest… does that count?
HmC June 20, 2012, 4:00 pm
Good job Claire! You know, I could tell right away this wasn’t Wendy’s writing. Which I guess makes me an official DW addict.
Roxy84 June 20, 2012, 4:06 pm
Me too! haha
Fabelle June 20, 2012, 4:06 pm
Ha, same here! I thought it was an essay by somebody else; thanks for letting us know it’s Claire. Hi Claire!!
bethany June 20, 2012, 4:36 pm
Wait- Who’s Claire?! What’s going on here?!
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:39 pm
Helllooo, even I know, and I’ve been in Quebec La La Land for several days. Her name is Claire Bear, and she’s an intern – Wendy’s intern. But that means she’s kind of *our* intern too.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:43 pm
Goddamnit ClaireBear! I said 2 sugars and a SPLASH of milk! This is clearly 2 splashes. WTF. Get it together woman!
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 4:46 pm
I need some clean clothes. I didn’t pack enough. I took off my pants and they’re standing upright in the middle of the room. They stink.
I also need un cafe. I take it black.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:55 pm
Your pants standing in the room by themselves made me smile. Back to work for me.
bethany June 20, 2012, 4:50 pm
When was this announced?!?! Any why wasn’t I asked to be Wendy’s Intern?! HUH?!?
Welcome Claire!!
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:51 pm
Apparently Wendy was teaching us all a lesson in cold calling and having balls. We have neither. All CB did was email and ask for an intern position!
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 4:51 pm
I wish CB’s name was Arthur instead of ClaireBear. Then it’d be DW & Arthur!!!!!
bluesunday June 20, 2012, 5:04 pm
This is the best thing I’ve ever read on this site.
honeybeenicki June 20, 2012, 5:22 pm
Lol I love Arthur!
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 10:20 pm
Had no idea what you were talking about. I assumed it was some hip new band that I didn’t know. I googled it, I know now. Awesome!
AliceInDairyLand June 20, 2012, 5:34 pm
I am going to go ahead and avoid the whole rape-not-rape side conversation, but I have to say that this article was a little bit insulting and not what I was expecting from DW. I lot of this seems to paint men as unbelievably stupid, and there is a bit of slut-shaming involved. Also the picture under the “Last Ditch Effort Girl” was insulting because of course she is overweight.
Sorry Claire to criticize your first post. However I find the lines “So go out to the bar and have a good time, but don’t be that girl. Sip your drink but don’t guzzle it down. Flirt with a cute guy at the bar, but don’t dry hump him on the dance floor. Avoid being too crazy and you’ll be on the right path to finding your other half” similar to those 1950’s books on how to find and keep a good husband…
Just rubbed me the wrong way, and I felt like it wasn’t a high quality link like most of the ones on DW are, or even that funny. :/
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 5:45 pm
Hmm, I hear you. But at the same time, I know a lot of girls who could stand to read this article. A lot. You know the type, really nice girl, wants a boyfriend, wants to be “cool” so acts “cool” and doesn’t understand why the guy never calls her again. After all, the term That Girl is known for a reason.
katie June 20, 2012, 7:24 pm
exactly- just because you are smart/confident/whatever enough to understand how to act in a respectable way, dont knock the people who might need a little help…
Jiggs June 20, 2012, 5:56 pm
Or you could just do whatever you want because you’re having a fun night out and not be worried over whether some dudebro at the club is into you.
Nadine June 20, 2012, 8:44 pm
But all of our behaviour is for the men, right? I must be calculatingly not-calculating!
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 10:00 pm
I get what you’re saying. But in Claire Bear’s defense, the advice is limited to a select audience, to “all you single ladies out there on the look out for a suitable man at the bar.” It’s a “what not to do” at a bar if you’re trying to find a “suitable” man, which I guess means a man who wants a committed relationship? I’m not sure what “suitable” – I guess it depends on what you’re looking for, someone who “suits” you. Which could be anything, including a one-night-stand, which means maybe you DO want to be one or two of those 6 girls. … Eh, I’m not sure how we glean much out of this, except to know that, *if* guys take the advice in the linked article, then they will *not* be going for those 6 girls, and if you want a guy to go for you at a bar, then being one of those 6 girls will not work. Of course, it does not follow that *not* being one of those 6 girls *will* land a guy. Plus the audience assumes the men are looking for a committed relationship… but maybe they’re not. Eh, I have overanalyzed this by now. I’m gonna stop.
How ’bout them Cubs, eh?! That’s a baseball team. I know that one.
DMR June 20, 2012, 6:06 pm
I think you got the wrong end of the stick on this.
The article you linked to was advice to men! The advice is: don’t hit on these chicks.
Girl-with-her-man, the lesbian, and the bartender are all unobtainable. It’s unethical to hit on the drunk chick (depending on how drunk, I guess). I guess they advise against the last-ditch-effort chick because guys should have standards (though personally, I think there’s nothing wrong with dining at the Last Chance Saloon).
The ‘wild chick’ should have been more accurately named ‘the girl who loves male attention.’ Because those kinds of women are totally a blind alley for men. They give all the right signals, but strangely you just keep running in place.
So. These are not a warning to women. Go out and be those women. Be all six at once.
You’ll get hit on, guaranteed.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 6:19 pm
So I really want to avoid the whole rape conversation – but I just can’t. Here are my thoughts: no one ever deserves to get raped, being drunk is legal, being a rapist is not. Why is it when rape is discussed 95% of the discussion focuses on the victim? What does that say about how society feels about women?
Also why is there still in this day and age so much slut shaming? Why can we not say – hey if you wanna wrap it up and have one night stands go for it? That doesn’t make you a slut. I actually hate that word. Mostly because it’s only used to describe women – never men. Because men that have one night stands are known as “the man”. Being slutty is also not illegal – but again being a rapist is. I would absolutely advise everyone I know to have some personal safety. But you know what? Isn’t part of the fun in college to drink way too much? Maybe do some slip-n-sliding? Isn’t college the time of your life to be irresponsible? Yet we still blame victims for drinking too much, because they could have avoided it. This conversation is really frustrating to me.
HmC June 20, 2012, 6:40 pm
Great points. I don’t really want to dive into that whole battle that my comment started off, but I merely meant to point out that I found it disturbing that an article geared towards men and warning them against fooling around with drunk girls only addressed the issue from the perspective of “avoiding getting accused of something” and entirely ignored the idea that fooling around with drunk girls, depending on the circumstance and level of drunkenness, is in and of itself very often an ethically wrong thing to do. As in, if she can’t legally consent, then you ARE taking advantage and that’s the real problem, and the secondary issue is that you may be accused of taking advantage in circumstances where you weren’t.
I agree that it’s ok to warn girls to look out for themselves, because there are some fucked up criminals out there. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have to be so paranoid, but the world isn’t perfect. It’s not your fault if something does happen, but I would encourage my daughter, for example, to look out for herself and friends. I don’t think it has to be one thing or the other, like being safe = victim blaming. And I don’t necessarily think it’s wrong to, say, warn your son to understand that having sex with someone you don’t know very well can result in a false accusation. But I think given the slut shaming and victim blaming that is rampant in society, and given that the rapist is the one 100% doing something wrong even if the victim wasn’t being “careful”, it is entirely MORE important to get the message across that you shouldn’t have sex with drunk girls because it’s wrong and they’re incapable of consent. It shouldn’t generally be explained to men from the angle of watching out for your own ass.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 6:57 pm
No and I completely agree with you on I think all points. It’s just so frustrating to me that whenever this discussion gets brought up (not just on DW – but in the media and everywhere) the whole conversation focuses on the women. I absolutely would tell my daughter not to drink so much that she can’t watch out for herself – but I don’t really think that’s where the problem lies. So me personally – I would tell my daughter that – but I wish the conversation was more geared towards males. (I’m ignoring the fact that yes women can rape men and men can rape men, etc. I’m just simplifying this for time sake). I guess I just think there is a correlation between the way society views women that like to have casual sex and the number of un reported rapes. I have no statistics to back this up, but I know at my old job we often met with women who had been raped and their number one concern was that people either wouldn’t believe them or would think it was their fault because they were drunk or it was an ex-boyfriend or whatever. It just makes my heart hurt that women are scared to come forward because someone will blame them or call them a slut.
HmC June 20, 2012, 7:08 pm
“I absolutely would tell my daughter not to drink so much that she can’t watch out for herself – but I don’t really think that’s where the problem lies. So me personally – I would tell my daughter that – but I wish the conversation was more geared towards males.”
100% agreed, exactly what I meant to address with my original comment above.
katie June 20, 2012, 7:28 pm
i agree with you guys so bad. but apparently were just all victim blaming our loved ones, which i think is so sad as well…. this whole thing (the issue- rape/victim blaming/false accusing/non-reported rapes/everything else) has become such a sad thing.
Brad June 21, 2012, 8:26 am
I think the reason it’s phrased to men more in a CYA (cover your ass) fashion rather than one of what’s right/wrong is because it catches more. Allow me to explain,
Let’s say for the sake of argument that there exists a scale of drunkenness that ranges from 0 – 10. Well as a society, we can all agree that from we’ll say 0-5 a woman is definitely still capable of consenting to sex, and we can all agree that she is definitely not capable from 8-10, so it would be rape to sleep with an 8+ person. The problem then lies in determining what that cut off point is, and more importantly, being able to recognize it out in the field. Is it at 6 or is it at 7? What if it is 7? How do we know the difference from a 6.5 vs a 7? This is a lot harder because as others have said above, being able to recognize when some is past that threshold can be really difficult because people’s bodies respond to alcohol differently. Some make it obvious in ways like nausea and balance issues, but others don’t really display any outward signs. So the “burden of proof” if you will is a lot easier if you’re saying “watch out for the drunken ones, or you might wake up to a rape charge” rather than trying to tell guys to only avoid sleeping with the ones that are past the threshold. It’s easier and less complicated. By advocating a CYA message, you’ll probably (or hope to) filter out some that were questionable in addition to saving the ones that certainly were.
I’ll agree with you that in the purest sense, the focus does need to be on men and putting an end to desire to rape. But I think many feel it’s more practical/effective to preach a CYA message instead, and I think I agree.
Guesteriffic June 21, 2012, 10:33 am
That’s why from now on I advocate guys buy and carry a portable breathalyzer. It’s all hard facts, no grey zone. You blow over the legal limit and that’s that. Of course, I imagine some women might take offense to having to take a BAC test before going home with some guy, but hey, CYA fellas.
Oh and contrary to popular belief, guess what? It IS illegal to be drunk in public. Yes, that’s right, in most states you can’t technically even be drunk in a bar – ‘specially not black out drunk.
Brad June 21, 2012, 1:12 pm
Just because someone is over the legal limit to operate motor vehicles doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve lost the cognative ability to consent to sex though.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 7:25 pm
As to your first paragraph, I think it’s because it’s the only thing to have a discussion about. No one will argue a rapist isn’t so bad. And for some reason, a lot of women have gone to war over this victim-blaming thing which in its true sense is so fucked up but I don’t think a lot of women really understand true victim-blaming. So that’s what’s usually discussed.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 7:33 pm
I know and you’re probably right…. but I don’t think that victim-blaming is that rare. I mean saying that people who drink too much deserve it – which was flat you said in a post above where it was hard for me to not drop f bombs – is absurd. I have blacked out many times in my life. Maybe I shouldn’t admit that. But overall I don’t consider myself “lucky” to not have been raped. Because being raped should never happen regardless you know? I don’t know it’s such a hard complex issue. I hate that it ever happens. And to say to someone that was raped – oh hey maybe you shouldn’t have drank so much – is just awful to me. But I think I get your overall point – which is do everything you can before it gets to that point to avoid it – but ugh it’s just hard. I wish I was less concerned about confidentiality and could further discuss specific examples of how heartbreaking it is to see what actual rape victims go through. It is not shocking to me at all that something like only 12% of rapes get reported.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 8:08 pm
I never ever said people who drink too much deserve to get raped.
I don’t know what everyone equates me saying its good to be careful with me saying and if you’re not you deserve to be raped. Maybe all the sentence finishers are the reason people discuss it so much.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 8:36 pm
It wasn’t you – it was a different poster above who said it – under the name anonymous.
anonymous June 20, 2012, 10:49 pm
That was my comment, and it certainly wasn’t exactly what I said or meant. I stand by my statement that one should take care of oneself. Particularly if you tend to appear lucid to others even if you are in a blackout. I really don’t understand the need, desire, or reason for drinking to excess regardless. It just seems to be asking for problems, and not just rape. Drunk driving anyone? If you drink that much, you’re expecting others to take your keys away, or running the risk that you’ll kill someone. Sorry, I really can’t be all that supportive of those of you who think that *not* remembering most of your weekend nights = fun.
Kristina June 20, 2012, 7:50 pm
The fact that women (and of course men too) get blamed and shamed so much for this is sad. It happened to me the times I was raped, which had nothing to do with alcohol/drugs, and even more commonplace in other cultures. In my experience, many people have no explanation for WHY someone raped another (since their minds are complex and sick to begin with), so it becomes easier to stop focusing on the why’s and the prevention of that and instead focus on how victims can prevent such attacks. It becomes such a scapegoat to do that. In order to prevent something, you have to get to the root of it, not the result. Just my thoughts on the matter.
lets_be_honest June 20, 2012, 8:15 pm
Good post. Curious what you think the alternative should be. There’s no way to prevent rape or a rapist. There’s ways to be safER but no guarantee of safety just by being safe. So if we stop telling people to try to be safe (out of fear of being accused of victim blaming) what do we do to lessen rapes? We will never be able to predict someone being a rapist. In my mind the only way to “help” is by trying to be safer. Again that won’t prevent anything either but if it prevents even 1 rape from occurring isn’t that better than none?
Kristina June 20, 2012, 10:27 pm
My belief is that there should be a lot more research into the minds/actions of rapists, and how to stop THEM from committing such crimes. I would like to see research that delves into early interventions–much in the way that is being done with sociopaths now–and possible behavioral therapies to help guide those considered at risk for raping (I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s impossible to be able to predict some rapists–if you can spot a vicious cycle within a family for one instance, there are definitely ways to step in and help prevent such crimes in the future). Rape of course will never stop, but I do think with psychological and medical research, there can be ways to help detect the problem instead of always relying on prevention methods. In the end, these are psychotic people, and I believe research can help change things.
And then of course, I think more education is needed for the general public about rape culture, rape victims, shaming/blaming etc. Which then ties in with a discussion about alcohol and drugs. Also everyone (not just women) needs education about prevention methods without all the fear mongering that the media likes to induce.
Kristina June 21, 2012, 12:25 am
And just to add on..
If a person takes a medicine to control X condition, the person is not actually treating WHY he/she has this condition, and instead is taking a magic pill to fix the symptoms..or as it applies to this discussion, society tells people to prevent rape by doing X, Y, and Z–but what society is really doing is creating scare tactics that there are magic methods to prevent rape, and if you don’t do it, it’s your fault. It often doesn’t stop rape, and it leads those who have been raped or victimized to believe that if only they had done X, Y, and Z, this wouldn’t have happened. It directs the blame from the rapist to the victim, because it’s not treating the root cause. It’s not the best analogy, but safety can’t be bottled up with a bow on it.
Lili June 21, 2012, 12:47 am
Just to throw a little glimmer of hope you’re way…research IS being done. I skimmed Gift of Fear after it being mentioned here and forgetting what tone it had..and I feel really uplifted. Gavin De B ecker IS studying why some people snap, and he articulated it in the book. Sure its coached as a self help book, but I love that his basic message is about trying to teach women how to say NO. We often forget that society doesn’t like women who say no, thus it creates this paradox of damned if she says yes, labeled a bitch if she says no. Lets strip away this illusion that crime can be prevented by anyone other than the criminal, its a long battle, but I got your back 🙂
Kristina June 21, 2012, 1:07 am
Yes! I love The Gift of Fear (and I love what Gavin De Becker does)–I happened to pick it up at a bookstore closing years ago not knowing anything about it, and it’s one of my favorite books 🙂
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 1:18 am
If you can read through this (all you guys, please!) I think it makes a really strong case for why we cannot victim blame in ANY situation. It makes me tear up nearly every time, so have a tissue ready. I haven’t found anything that has explained things as well.
anonymous June 20, 2012, 11:05 pm
Kristina, I am so sorry that you had that experience. And I really, really hope that you don’t read these comments and think that they apply to you. They don’t.
It’s the difference between keeping your wallet in your pocket, your doors locked, and staying in safe areas and holding out $100 bills, prancing through a dodgy neighborhood, and saying, “Look! I have money and I’m incapacitated and won’t remember this tomorrow!”
I think the general trend of the discussion is: anyone who forces another to have sex is unequivocally wrong, outside the law, and deserves the full penalty. Personally, I support full, open discussions about what constitutes consent in our classrooms/sex ed/whatever, and I talk to my kids about it.
The codicil, if you will, that is causing such debate is whether in *some cases* one could make choices to avoid being victims of a crime. Some are saying, yes, you should do what you need to do to keep yourself safe (including not drinking to excess), and others are saying, regardless of the victim’s actions, any discussion of that possibility is called blaming the victim, and that society and others owe it to the potential victim to stop the crime from happening.
I think everyone understands that people can do everything right and still be a victim. It’s the topic of crime avoidance, particularly when it comes to rape, that seems to be getting misinterpreted.
I have never been raped. But I have been the victim of a crime. This will seem trivial (somewhat intentionally), but I think it illustrates the point. I had a compound chop saw (worth about $300) that I had left in my carport. Not overnight…but for *two whole weeks*. Eventually, someone came onto my property and helped himself/herself to my chop saw.
Was this breaking the law? You betcha. Did he/she know that he was stealing? Absolutely. Would I have pressed charges had I known who took it? Of course. Did I think I was a complete idiot for leaving it there, practically with a “take me” sign on it? Yes. This robbery was, to some degree, partly a result of my *own* stupidity. This is above and beyond the fact that the criminal should not have done it. That’s totally understood and frankly not worthy of discussion. However, I suffered the consequence of my carelessness and stupidity.
Simple, non-emotional example that does NOT involve a sex crime, but DOES involve a clear crime as well as an invitation on the part of the victim. Is it victim blaming to tell me I was silly to leave it there? Probably. But really, I *was* silly to leave it there.
As stated by someone above, our failure to include this kind of calculation really does tell women that we don’t need to take care of ourselves, and we should expect others to take care of us. Not exactly a powerful, responsible position.
Once again, this completely does NOT apply to your circumstances, and I hope you don’t take my comments in that vein. This is solely about date rape in the context of excess drinking. I am so sorry to hear about your experience.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 11:18 pm
You’re talking about personal property. This is talking about a girls vagina being penetrated against her will. I’m sorry the analogy doesn’t work. It’s a little more personal than $300. They have to look you in the eye – or maybe not depending on how fucked up they are about the rape – hold you down/threaten you/whatever, and perform one of the most intimate acts you can – the whole time the girl not wanting it to happen.
I would love for you to actually address the reality and seriousness of rape.
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 11:21 pm
Oh! And then imagine that happening to you and to say if only you hadn’t have been out at a bar drinking with your friends this never would have happened! If only you hadn’t let your ex-boyfriend into your apartment to “get closure”. Then you wouldn’t have had to deal with someone fucking you while you scream/cry/zone out/fight for your life/whatever. Then say you do report it. Imagine having a defense attorney try to tell the court that you wanted it because I mean it was your ex-boyfriend – this was just a case of buyers remorse. I have heard those exact terms used to describe rape – “buyers remorse”. And we wonder why women don’t report it. They will just be called slutty or have all their actions brought up. You think a defense attorney can’t bring up the fact that she met the defendant at a bar?
iwannatalktosampson June 20, 2012, 11:25 pm
I want someone to actually use the words – actually describe what happens. I am mostly offended that no one seems to grasp the concept of what rape is. Like really think about how messed up it is. Everyone is all sugar coating and avoiding the terms. “oh I mean ACTUAL rape is HORRIBLE”. Well describe that scene to me. Seriously. It is something you will never forget after speaking to a rape victim.
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 12:59 am
“Did I think I was a complete idiot for leaving it there, practically with a “take me” sign on it? Yes. This robbery was, to some degree, partly a result of my *own* stupidity.”
Using your analogy… where do we draw the line here on what is a “take me” sign… Is wearing a short skirt or low cut top a take me sign? How about eye make up? Is being flirtatious a take me sign? Getting drunk at a nice bar, or only a frat party? Walking alone at 6pm or 10pm or 3am? Are you starting to see even the beginning of what I am trying to get across?
What if you had only left the chop-saw in there for 1 week, or it had been slightly locked up but not completely? You *still* would have blamed yourself for your stupidity, because that’s just human nature. BUT it is the person who stole it that is at fault. no. question.
If you hadn’t had it stolen, you probably wouldn’t be thinking “oh man, thank GOODNESS this wasn’t stolen.” Because, well, you had 2 weeks to think of that and you didn’t. Just like when I go out to the bars I don’t think “oh man, thank GOODNESS I wasn’t raped because I had a few drinks.”
Lili June 21, 2012, 1:03 am
I don’t remember seeing you comment much before, but I have to say, I’m glad you’re here AliceInDairyLand 🙂
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 1:13 am
I took a long hiatus from commenting due to school and work, but this was just a bit too infuriating for me to not at least slightly chime in. I really appreciated your post up above!
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 1:49 am
Glad you’re still around! How are the cows? Tell them “Moo!” for me!
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 1:51 am
They are good! Making milk for delicious cheese. 🙂
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 1:47 am
God, yes! If we’re going with the chop saw analogy, as far as “preventing rape” goes, anything shy of locking that sucker up in a vault with air pressure sensors and laser barriers is just asking for it to be stolen, and if you’re not out guarding it with a shotgun every night, you’re not being vigilant enough.
There was an article published, I forget where, called “Schroedinger’s Rapist” where the writer asserted that every time she meets a new man, she sizes him up as to whether or not she’s putting herself in a position to be raped, and people freaked out and called her paranoid and a miserable shrew and all sorts of crazy things for being an extremist. Apparently women need to be just the right amount of paranoid – guard yourself like there’s a rapist lurking around every corner, but you should always know that the guy next to you is totally not a rapist.
Brad June 21, 2012, 8:52 am
Laser sensors can be tricked pretty easily, infrared is much more effective since it emitted in a cone. So if you’re still using lasers I think it’s time to upgrade. Lasers only work in the movies. And shotguns have limited rounds so might I suggest a gatling gun instead?
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 10:24 am
Brad, I adore you.
Brad June 21, 2012, 1:13 pm
🙂
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 9:09 am
An excellent article. This whole thread is making me kind of ill, and also late for work, but everyone should read this.
qm June 21, 2012, 12:41 am
The problem with your analogy is that our entire rape culture lets you equate a drunk woman with a saw left out in your car port. A woman is NOT an object, should NOT be seen as a target when drunk, and it’s only our rape culture that allows people to make these sorts of analogies. A woman getting drunk at a bar should not be seen as someone waving around $100 bills in a bad part of town; it’s our rape culture that encourages those analogies. Her vagina is not an inanimate object to be taken.
And I know you didn’t say it, but a lot of people talking about how we can never stop rapists, so we have to just tell women to be safer have NO EFFING CLUE what they’re talking about. I was in Greek in undergrad. Have any of you ever talked to a fratbag? They think that a maniac jumping out from the bushes is rape but them taking a freshman back to their rooms when she’s CLEARLY intoxicated is just a party. They BELIEVE IT ISN’T RAPE. If they thought it was rape and they were rapists, they wouldn’t do it. And that’s the problem with this whole grey-area argument. It leaves the door wide-open for misinformed men to commit rape and then have people tell them “oh, that’s okay, how could you have known?” Our society needs to teach MEN what rape is and what makes you a rapist. I know a lot of those boys would never have touched a very intoxicated girl if they truly believed what they were doing was rape. The problem with our rape culture is we don’t teach them that it is.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 1:38 am
I missed this thread due to my eternal drawing class although I’m kinda glad I did because my brain sort of exploded a little just reading what was said, but IWTTS, you are seriously rocking my socks off.
anonymous, I definitely appreciate your clarification, but your metaphor breaks down after a bit. I know you weren’t intending it to be a blanket application, so I’m not saying you’re implying or not implying or that you don’t realize, I’m just extending the metaphor as food for thought.
So your chop saw was taken without your consent. Wrong move on your part? Yeah. But if you had a neighbor who was out when it was stolen and saw the thief and could ID the guy (or girl, I’d totally love a chop saw of my very own), the police would arrest him. If the guy was like, “Oh, it was a gift. Anonymous totally gave it to me,” they wouldn’t come back and question you that maybe you were just so stupid you forgot all that – you reported it stolen, you know who did it, end of story. It wouldn’t matter that you’d lent the chop saw to everyone on the block in the last week, it wouldn’t matter that you’d lent it to the very guy who stole it the day before – in fact, the police would probably think that would make for a better case since the thief had not only seen it but knew you weren’t watching it. And I realize you’re not saying that questioning a woman’s validity in saying she was raped is okay, but if you were prone to lending tools out and then tat saw got stolen, people would say, “Oh, poor anonymous, he’s always so generous with his tools and it’s so shitty that someone took advantage of him.” And they wouldn’t use it as a claim that you were less robbed. And no one would ever assume that obviously you were just embarrassed about lending that saw to that particular guy and changed your mind the next day. Rape, unfortunately, doesn’t work that way, because we’ve got such a screwed up take on sex. And there aren’t articles published telling men not to take others’ power tools that have been left out because you might be accused of stealing, and there aren’t entire articles dedicated to telling fully capable adults how not to get their power tools stolen because it’s obvious and condescending and everyone knows the ways to prevent getting a chop saw stolen, but maybe you live amongst people you trust and you have neighbors who watch out for you.
rachel June 21, 2012, 1:43 am
I love what you did with the analogy. Seriously, good job.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 1:55 am
Thanks! I actually love analogies (I’m a geek).
katie June 21, 2012, 8:08 am
see here is my problem. i agree with this. i agree with what all of you are saying, actually. but i dont agree that if i do *try* to keep my chop saw safe, im in the wrong. just by me doing that, i am furthering rape culture and and putting down other victims… i cant wrap my head around that.
like i said, the gift of fear, the victim blaming manual. because now, apparently, if i listen to my gut and learn about my own fear, i am in the wrong.
Fabelle June 21, 2012, 9:06 am
I really don’t want to get into this thread, but I have to addres you @katie because in all your comments, you seem to think people are advising to throw all caution to the wind. That’s NOT what everybody is saying. They’re trying to address the underlying attitude in some of the other comments that a woman DESERVES the “consequences” of rape if she decides to get drunk in public.
katie June 21, 2012, 10:12 am
Well appreciate this because it doesn’t make me feel so crazy for watching my own back, but yes, what I have been told in this thread and in the thread two days ago is that if I take any measure of protection, I AM saying that other women “deserve” what’s coming to them. That is what I am being told.
Lili June 21, 2012, 10:23 am
We’re NOT. We’re JUST saying that its a false sense of security to be so confident in it. You’re ignored my comment about considering volunteering for a rape crisis hotline or DV shelter twice now, so I’ll say it AGAIN, think about it.
Nadine June 20, 2012, 7:04 pm
I haven’t read any comments yet, but I’m a bit surprised at the Cosmo style light misogyny of this post. I thought we all supported sex positivity and we didn’t assume everyone went out with a view to being girlfriend material? I never expected to read such shaming things on this sure which I love
Addie Pray June 20, 2012, 8:37 pm
I tend to agree with you, Nadine.
Nadine June 20, 2012, 8:41 pm
*site which I love.
DMR June 21, 2012, 12:56 am
Well as I said above – the “avoid these women” advice of the original, linked article is for men, not women; because men don’t always tend to avoid such women.
I don’t regard this in moralistic terms, but in tactical terms. What do you want? Do you want to get laid? Find a boyfriend? Fall in love? etc. What’s going to achieve those goals for you? Personally, I think there’s nothing wrong with being a slutty, badly behaved girl and I have had relationships with such girls in the past that worked out well. (for a time…)
A bit of flirtatiousness goes a long way. But too much, too much empty, meaningless flirtation and you become the prick-teasing attention-seeker. It’s a balance, I think, and a judgement call.
Jiggs June 21, 2012, 1:26 am
Okay, #1, being slutty is not being “badly behaved”. It’s just having some sex. Think for second whether you would call a man who had any amount of sex “badly behaved”. I’m guessing probably not.
Also, seriously, “prick-teasing”? You know no one OWES you sex just because they like to flirt, right? If you want a sure thing, find a brothel.
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 1:30 am
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This was a bit too toxic for me to touch.
ele4phant June 21, 2012, 1:30 am
Um, not to defend everything that DMR is saying, but…it appears “badly behaved girl” is the pet name for his lady. So given the comma, he said being slutty is not a bad thing, and furthermore, he and his lady have enjoyed the company of such minded women, in the past.
But the prick-teasing, I’ll get on board with that one.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 1:52 am
Right, but Jiggs, you forget! No one *marries* the slutty girl! Her ladybits will have fallen off from all the slutting around she did.
You silly whore, you.
DMR June 21, 2012, 1:58 am
toxic? Come on.
Look, I have NO PROBLEMS with women being promiscuous, flirty, whatever. In fact, I married such a woman. The marriage didn’t work out, but that’s another story.
Probably the choice of the word “slutty” was poorly chosen. It doesn’t reflect my attitudes to female sexuality. I was carelessly using an off-the-shelf expression to describe certain behavior.
As for ‘prick-teasing’ here’s the thing. There really is a subset of women who love to go out, be seen, and aggressively seek the attention of men. They have no intention of sleeping around. They just like the attention. Now, this is a well known phenomenon in the land of men. You might not like the terminology. Maybe the terminology upsets you. Sorry. But the underlying behavior exists, it’s out there, regardless of what you call it. Please suggest a more suitable, politically correct descriptor that I may keep for future reference.
HmC June 21, 2012, 2:09 am
I don’t even get why that type of behavior needs a label, probably because I don’t see anything wrong with it. Being flirty and wanting attention… that men gladly give you? Are they suffering in some way by giving you this attention? Human interaction like that is generally fun no? So a girl talks to them, enjoys their attention, and doesn’t sleep with them… seriously so the hell what. I don’t talk to men expecting some immediate pay off, and then get pissed when they don’t, say, immediately want to bang or be my boyfriend or even ever talk to me again. Honestly, I don’t get the whole cock tease concept, it’s not just the name.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 2:21 am
Very well put. Much more concise than my inane rambling.
Brad June 21, 2012, 9:23 am
Men hate that type of behavior because from a guy’s perspective it’s misleading. In his mind she’s convincing him that she’s appreciating the attention and wants it to continue, which guys interpret it to mean she likes them (not an unreasonable conclusion). Guys hate it because it encourages them to continue spending time and/or money on someone that they have no chance with. I’ve even heard some guys refer to it as “social fraud,” lol. In my opinion they’re both to blame. I don’t think it’s fair for women to go after guys, who they know are looking to hookup/find a GF, looking for attention to stroke their egos knowing that they won’t sleep with the guy, give him their number, etc. No I don’t think that women owe men sex just because they flirted with him a few hours earlier and let him buy her some drinks. But some women do give you all the signs and impressions that they want to sleep with you, and only in the 11th hour does the truth come out. I think it’s equally not fair for men to assume that just because it’s going well they’re going to get laid. They’re building up expectations way before they should, so it’s their own fault when they’re disappointed. I think some guys are way too quick to throw out the term cock tease, but I also think some women do go too far.
An example that might help some women understand, have you ever had a guy tell you that he wanted to be your BF? Tell you that he loves you, wants to be with you, brings you flowers, etc? And you get excited and happy to have a new boyfriend that says and does all these nice things to you and makes you feel good about yourself. So good in fact that you decide to take the relationship to the next level and sleep with him and then suddenly he stops calling you, he doesn’t answer your texts, and makes you wonder what you did wrong? And then you realize he was just trying to get laid and used you. Well that’s kind of how guys feel when they’re cock teased.
They both leave a person feeling used, and that’s just not a pleasant feeling.
Personally I think the guy version is worse (meaning what guys do), but they both suck and I think they’re both wrong.
ele4phant June 21, 2012, 1:57 pm
You know, I was going to bring up the whole guys pretending to be your boyfriend, and then dropping you with no warning – but then I got tired and went to bed instead.
In college, this happened to me, its happened to other girls, and it sucks. And yet it being a somewhat prevalent thing, we don’t have a derogatory term for it. We don’t call these guys “Boyfriend Teases”, we call them what they are, jerks. Lying jerks.
So why should we give females who intentionally lead on guys or give them the impression they are more interested than they really are a special label?
What don’t we stop with the unflattering and one-sided labels, and just recognize that seem people are assholes. Assholes who take advantage of others for their own gain, whether that be a stroking their ego or free drinks, or whatever else. Some people suck, male or female.
HmC June 21, 2012, 2:44 pm
Totally agree with you. Asshole behavior is asshole behavior. Calling girls sluts, cockteases, prudes, etc. furthers misogyny by putting women in convenient boxes to be judged. Neither men nor women deserve that. Sometimes an otherwise conservative girl has a wild night. Sometimes a friendly girl gives the wrong impression without intending to. Sometimes a girl is messed up in the head and enjoys male attention and is trying to hurt people. Sometimes guys think they want a relationship and then realize later they don’t. People aren’t characters in a Disney movie.
DMR June 21, 2012, 11:29 pm
Okay, as the person who introduced these phrases into the discourse, I apologize and would like to offer a further clarification.
* I am very pro-sexuality and the last person to denigrate a woman; ‘slutty’ to me doesn’t actually have negative connotations; it describes a woman who is acting in a very sexual way. As a guy, if it’s directed at me, I like it.
* guys are never ‘sluts’ but they are called ‘creepy’ or sleazy’ – words that get used on this blog quite a lot. You never hear a woman described as creepy or sleazy. Don’t hold a double-standard, please. Mote, logs, etc.
* yes to elephant,- a guy pretending to be your boyfriend, or to be in love, to get sex, is a totally parallel situation.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 2:16 am
Benefit of the doubt, poor choice of words. “Just in it for the attention” is great. I’m not trying to be patronizing – I have no idea if that’s coming across. “Recreational flirt,” “male attention junkie,” I don’t know. “Prick tease” to me, and maybe I’m alone here, and also, your tone isn’t quite coming across, indicates that there’s an entitlement to sex. And maybe I’m overly naive, but it does goob me out to think that the huge amount of recreational flirting that I do creates an expectation of sex. Hope? Sure, fine, but the attitude that if I make a couple of sexually charged jokes and go home to my boyfriend at the end of the night means I’m not holding up my end of some bargain I didn’t agree to make is really frightening in some ways.
Lili June 21, 2012, 2:20 am
Glad you picked up on the sex entitlement painted_lady! I also think its tragic that should anything happen to the ‘cock tease’ both men and women will want to shift the attention to her and her actions. Saying things like she didn’t take care to not ‘flirt’ with ‘the creep’ etc. Like..a creep/rapist has a sign on his forehead.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 2:36 am
Thanks. And, of course, as with the Schroedinger’s Rapist example, if, say, every time a guy tried to flirt with me in a bar, I opened up the conversation with, “Just so you know, we can flirt, but I’m not having sex with you,” or I actually did pick up on creeper vibes and skedaddled, I’d be the crazy, uptight, paranoid bitch.
It frustrates me sometimes that if I were to be as safe as possible, I would have to change so much of my day-to-day life that I wouldn’t actually get to live it much. And, yes, with that argument comes, “Well, do everything *within reason* to keep yourself safe,” but everyone has their own comfort level, and apparently my comfort level is a problem for some people. It’s 1:30 am here, and I’m getting ready to take my dog out. I’ve had a few drinks so I’m only operating at 75% capacity, plus I’m tired, plus I’m moving a little slow because I overdid it at the gym. I know some of what I’m doing is probably slightly unsafe, but damn it, I want to live my fucking life and I don’t want to go wake my boyfriend up so I can have an escort so I will be totally safe walking my own fucking dog in my own fucking neighborhood.
And I think that’s my biggest problem. I’m a fully functioning adult, and if I say something completely reasonable for an adult to do is safe, THAT SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH.
Rant over. Sorry.
Lili June 21, 2012, 2:51 am
Um, I LOVE you’re tipsy ramblings. You’ve hit on the point that I wanted to make for so long. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN COMFORT LEVEL. Anytime the conversation gets directed to ‘personal responsibility’ the underlying tone (whether people see it or not, its there. In A rape culture society, its THERE) is that the victim’s wasn’t high enough as the person making the comment/judgment. THAT is victim Blaming. Somehow its lost in layers of societal bullshit, but peel back ALL the scary layers and there it is.
Katie June 21, 2012, 12:22 pm
Well this is what I don’t understand. Because while painted lady is ok with walking the dog at 1 am, I’m not one who would do that. But she is living her life the way she wants to (yay!) and so am I (yay!). So I feel like I am now judged because I’m not “cool enough” or something to walk my dog at 1 am. I don’t think that means that the rapists are “winning”, and I dont think that painted lady or I deserve to have anything bad happen to us. And I don’t think that her or my way of life is better, safer, happier, whatever. But I think that I have a choice in the matter. And of I choose something that to me is “safer”, I’m getting the beat down for it. And you can argue that it’s not what your saying forever, but that is what has been spewed at me for the last two days.
Also, I didn’t ignore your suggestion about a rape crisis center. I’ll be honest, I don’t think I’m a strong enough person emotionally to do that. I’d do them more harm them good….
Lili June 21, 2012, 12:45 pm
‘And I don’t think that her or my way of life is better, safer, happier, whatever.’ Going back to the original comment that started all this– there was talk about judging people who acted differently than you. That is what caused a lot of alarm. I really am glad that you don’t think one way is better than the other.
I also want to ask WHY don’t you feel safe walking the dog at 1 AM? Because of potential criminals right? How about doing some research into things like crime patterns and stats to maybe ease your fears.
Also, I’m really sorry if you felt under attack (your use of the phrase ‘spewed at me’ led me to think this) but all we wanted to do was educate you about the futility of most ‘prevention tips’
And as long as you promise to listen to victims stories, without judgment and an open mind, you’re doing them a world of good. They just want some compassion and a person to understand, and tell them its not their fault.
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 1:01 pm
I think you are missing the point that these ladies are trying to make. Which is that painted lady is in no way asking to be raped because she is walking her dog at 1 am. And that you are not actually measurably safer by not walking your dog at 1 am (no one said anything about being cool?) because the majority of rapes are not committed at 1 am by strangers.
Furthermore, by saying that someone is safer from sexual assault because she is refraining from “risky behaviors” you place the onus of assault on the rape victims rather than the perpetrator. That there was something she could have done to prevent the assault. That she somehow by word or deed invited her rape. Which is not true and perpetuates the rape culture.
I’m not a partier either. I don’t walk my dog at 1 am. But I know that these things don’t actually prevent rape, any more than a locked door will stop a determined burglar. The fact that we have an added sense of security because we do these things have very little to do with our actual risk. Because really, where do you draw the line? Women in Saudi Arabia are still assaulted, and they wear freaking burqas.
Lili June 21, 2012, 1:23 pm
The fact that we have an added sense of security because we do these things have very little to do with our actual risk.
THIS TIMES INFINITI.
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 2:34 pm
I <3 you Lili, and I completely have your back on this.
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 2:46 pm
iseeshiny, awesome post. You explained the concept, really really well. Thank you.
Katie June 21, 2012, 4:09 pm
And yet, Lili, you said yourself you aren’t comfortable enough to run down a street naked in the dead of night… “I would NEVER jog naked at midnight through downtown Seattle”
Why not? Going with that logic, that you know your level of risk is the same in all situations, why for you feel comfortable doing that?
And yes, I absolutely feel judged because I want to take a more “safe” (what I see as safe) approach to my life. I really feel right now listening to you guys that unless I am swinging from bar chandeliers plastered out of my mind I am somehow giving in to rapists and letting them control my life, not to mention that I victim blame all other victims by my choice of life, and the fact that I’ll teach my daughter to try to be safe and use her own judgement and creep radar.
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:19 pm
I think then the point is lost because you’re focusing on us judging you. We’re not. We’re trying to talk about something, but if you’re not willing to get over presumptions of judgment then we’re both just wasting our finger energy.
And good point about me not feeling comfortable jogging naked, it does relate to your own safety concerns but in general i’m talking about feeling the weight of societal misogyny and pro rape culture ideals. I’m not saying I’m 100% above them either. Its a process for me as well. But, you also have inspired me to sign up for Seattle’s Slut Walk this Sept! Look into it in your city 🙂
katie June 21, 2012, 4:32 pm
well, lili, all i would say is that you are judging me… you are judging me for the fact that i would never get plastered drunk in public because i never want to find myself in the situation of questioning whether or not i gave consent or if i was legally able to. in my life, i feel that if i dont put myself into that state, i will never have to deal with that situation… i also dont ever want to wake up scared in a strange apartment, i dont want to frantically check my wallet after the guy slipped out of my apartment and make sure he didnt rob me, i dont want to find out that i have no idea where i left my car, that i have missed work, anything… i mean, in regards to drinking, i never want to put myself in the spot of being vulnerable to anything. i always want to be in control of my own actions, and also remember things. and yes, i am feel judged here because then you will say that in my choice, i am somehow saying that all others should make that choice, and that i feel better then them, and that i am saying that people who do those things deserve it if anything bad happens to them. which isnt true.
and slut walks are awesome.
all i feel like is if we arent supposed to be judging girls who do end up in those situations, we shouldnt judge people who chose not to do that either.
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:48 pm
I’m not judging you I swear! I think your way sounds awesome and I fully respect your right to live life that way. I agree 100% with what Cats said above, and I see you do to. So I think we’re in agreement. But seriously, I NEVER want you to feel like I think your choice is bad and I’m judging you for it. This is not a either or. Ending rape culture by starting the dialogue on how to end societal views that stigmatize the victim is what I’m basically ‘preaching’ thats IT. I promise.
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 2:37 am
Ugh, when women get all bent out of shape over the term “prick-tease” — they rapidly lose credibility with me. No, seriously. We all know it exists… Hey, it certainly exists in my community as well… Young gay men have perfected it, trust me…
Come on, people. It gets so exhausting around here. And so absurd. Men are terrible beasts who apparently rape anything that stops moving so that no women/alcoholic is safe and blah blah blah.
But the minute you call some slutty chick who grinds on your best friends jock for well over two hours at a club before disappearing into the dead of night a “prick-tease”… suddenly YOU’RE the one with the problem.
It’s fucking bullshit.
You know what? If I sit on somebody’s lap for 120 minutes while he buys me drink after drink only to bail the minute the tab is closed out, I’m a fucking prick-tease. That’s reality. Some of you should grow up and leave your precious ivory towers because it’s REALLY getting thick in here lately….
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 2:43 am
Then why are you still here? If we’re all such idiots, please stop wasting your time.
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 2:55 am
Boredom, I guess.
That and, hey, you’re not all idiots. Though a few of you sure do love to spout off idiotic opinions from time to time. But come on! To label that guy’s post toxic was seriously a bit much. I mean, really? This entire thread turned in to one big rant about how no woman is safe from rape because men everywhere are dying to rape them… But somebody calls out a women for a common type of overly flirty behavior and he’s toxic? Come on, surely you jest.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 3:07 am
Well, and I get that. But – and I know being all cynical and bitter and shit is your thing, and, you know, mission TOTALLY accomplished – fewer of the grand, sweeping, blanket negative statements, please? You make some really smart points, but sometimes what you say is lost in your hatefulness. You’re not always so hateful, and I know you’re not out to win friends, but for what it’s worth, when you’re in less-bitter mode, even when I disagree, I generally love reading what you have to say, and I would probably enjoy the hell out of you in person.
Look at us, being all rational.
Lili June 21, 2012, 2:56 am
I’m not touching the ‘prick tease’ term, but what I want to ask about is tops and bottoms in gay culture. Mark, do you have any info on bottoms who have been coerced into sex aka RAPED? I bet its VERY underreported. And, while not completely excusing boy who cried rape/ex friend…i’m betting he was a bottom. Its evident that SOMEHOW at SOME LEVEL he felt violated. Its unfortunate that he wasn’t able to get that sorted out, but to me his behavior indicates he’s been violated an is stuck in some unfortunate mental pattern. I feel pity for him and his issues. Can I help him–prolly not. But being sympathetic to his problems takes nothing other than some kindness.
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 3:15 am
Actually, oddly enough, when it came to penetration, he was a TOP. (Pretty much every gay guy gives and receives oral…I only point this out to explain his previous misbehavior in the bar…) Honestly, looking back now years later, I really do think he had deeply internal homophobia —- meaning that had to get wasted simply so he could throw caution to the wind.
And I have seen this same behavior in women, too. Not very many, but more than enough to give me pause. Morning after regret is a dangerous thing…
Hey, I’ve slept with guys and then been like: Oh. Dear. God. What. Did. I. Do? And sure, I’ve been, uh, embarrassed. But then I have to admit that I DO remember going home with this person. I DO remember tearing their clothes off… and so like a grown up I accept my mistakes and move on..
I don’t know much about what you are asking. But I will say this. Gay men ARE or tend to be a wee bit sluttier than women. Look, it’s just true. You get two hot and horny guys together and BAM! Odds are they’ll go off and have sex. All I can say, is over the years, I’ve had many crazy explicit conversations about lots of crazy sex, much of it embarrassing, plenty of juicy Sex And The City style conversations… but nobody has ever confided this in me. I’m sure it is underreported, but I honestly think the numbers are actually pretty low…
Dan Savage calls Anal Sex…. Varsity Level Gay Sex. And I know I view it as such. It’s… very intense. It just is. Getting fucked is simply much more personal and intimate than a blowjob. I dunno, so many people have so many misconceptions about anal sex. For instance, did you know that more often than not the two guys actually face one another? Anyway, few guys I know do that with one another right away…
PS — Sadly, the Boy Who Cried Rape hasn’t been in my life since 1996 or so.
Lili June 21, 2012, 3:33 am
Thanks Mark, this was SUPER informative.
Honestly, I didn’t know about the gay sex culture other than basic info that i gleaned from Savage Love (tops/bottoms/promiscuity). I think its sad that certain groups are marginalized and scrutinized more so than others in terms of sexuality, And this includes Trans/Queer/Gay/Bi etc.
I think you are onto something about ex friend’s needing to get that wasted to do it, and I think thats a leading factor in ‘morning after regret rapes’ as well. I don’t personally know anyone who has claimed it, so I can’t really comment other than to think that I refrain judgment because the only people who know the real truth are the ones who were in the room.
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 3:42 am
Admittedly, my own views of anal sex may now be very antiquated as it seems that all the junior-high-abstinence-kiddies do it that way so the girls can “preserve” their virginity… Or so I’ve read with great alarm from time to time.
Anal sex among men is THE hangup most people have about homosexuality. Hell, I admit that back in college none of us were exactly in a rush to try it because, hey, that alone PROVED you were gay… All the rest of all that drunken fratboy hotness? Eh, that was just “experimentation”…. Silly, but in a way — it WAS true. Hell, the very first time I let poor, doomed Kirk bang me, I knew I was definitely, uh, probably going to stay gay… As quote unquote “unnatural” as so, so many claim anal sex to be… The male body is curiously well designed for it, what with that handy prostate and all… I mean, its location is, um, rather conveniently placed for sexual deviance if you know what I mean.
Lili June 21, 2012, 3:59 am
I find homophobia and mysogny/slut shaming very closely linked because of the ‘unnatural’ aspects connected to acceptance, it seems to take power away from straight males, who’ve had power forever. I know its hard to align such different ‘fights’ but until every young gay person feels that its ok to be gay, or a woman with a high sex drive doesn’t feel bad for being a ‘slut’ the fight isn’t over. Sure there are bad apples who ruin the batch sometimes, but I think they’re the anomalies, not the norms.
painted_lady June 21, 2012, 4:01 am
I know “cock tease” is a phrase you don’t have a problem with (personal preference, let’s say), but what’s your experience/attitude with the newly out who are freaked out by the idea of having sex with a man? As in, out for some flirting, some dancing, but ultimately isn’t sure if they’re actually ready to go through with it. I mean, fortunately our culture is such that, at this point, more guys have been out for years by the time they’re of age to start going out and hooking up as adults, but I saw it happen as recently as five years ago. The reason I ask is because slut shaming in some women is as deeply ingrained as homophobia in some men. My instinct is to be a little more patient with those types.
And part of the reason I hate the term cock-tease – though I’m in the Dan Savage camp of intent being important as well – is that idea that sex is “owed.” Fuck you, I don’t owe you a thing. But I know quite a few women, generally younger and more insecure, who hear that idea that sex is owed, and then they’re pressured into having sex they don’t want. Should they learn to stand up for themselves better? Absolutely, but I don’t necessarily know that the penalty for being afraid and insecure should be sex they’d rather not have. Like you said, getting fucked is much more personal and intimate, and yet that’s the default for straights for some reason. If every single random you went home with insisted you “owed” them that, eventually, do you think if that happened enough times you’d start thinking the problem was you and maybe give in more than you ought to?
I’ve definitely given a consolation blowjob/handjob in my day, and I’m lucky that the overwhelming majority of guys were totally okay with that, but the few that weren’t made me feel like an asshole. And from what the women I hang out with say, I’m definitely in the minority that my “no, you owe me sex” ratio is so low.
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:10 am
consolation handjob FTW!
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 4:27 am
I’ve honestly NEVER given a consolation handjob. See why in my more detailed explanation below. 😉
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 4:19 am
It’s late. I’m exhausted. But I honestly don’t think what you are suggesting truly translates as well to gay sexuality as you would like. Now this is largely my own personal observation, but when I was struggling, there was actually always a big RUSH to sex on my part because I was desperate to experience it once more as I was so desperate to sort out my feelings for it. Half of me was just hoping that I’d HATE it. I was always TRYING TO CONVINCE MYSELF that I’d hate it. And then, even when I didn’t hate it. I’d still try to talk myself into the fact that I did… and the only real way to do that again was to do it again…
It was all very heady.
Obviously, that was just my experience. But hailing from North Dakota and now in the big city of Tucson, Arizona, I was definitely not well educated in gay sexuality. There was no GLEE. There was, uh, a kid getting raped after going to jail for parking tickets and then hanging himself… on Cagney and Lacey. (Real show. I VIVIDLY remember this…)
Also, the honest, unvarnished reality is that if you are a reasonably good looking gay guy, and you “waste” your night on some nervous twink who chickens out or whatever, it’s simply not that big a deal as you can and will easily find somebody else if that’s what you REALLY want.
PS — I don’t know that I ever feel sex is owed. But using a guy for his attention and using him to buy you drinks when you really aren’t genuinely interested in him — you know, if you are only interested in his interest, well, hey, that’s pretty bitch. Regardless of what sex you are. Flirting with a guy to stroke your ego and nothing else strikes me as pathetic. It’s needy and it’s desperate… At least it sure is in my book.
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 4:25 am
ugh. typo. last paragraph, second run on sentence should read “that’s pretty bitchy.” NOT “that’s pretty bitch”
Brad June 21, 2012, 9:51 am
Yuck. I’ve never taken a consolation bj/hj in my life and I doubt I ever will. I find the very idea of them to be insulting and I don’t understand why guys accept them. Maybe I’m just too idealistic, but I shouldn’t have to beg for sex. My gf/wife should want to sleep with me because she enjoys it and I turn her on, not to placate me so I won’t go cheat or break up. I doubt I’d even be able to get it up in the first place if I knew. I mean really, just the idea of begging for sex, getting turned down, and then trying to convince her to at least give me a BJ …. ugh! Such a turn off! Thanks but no thanks, I don’t want one that bad. The thought is just so depressing.
To borrow the phrase from above, I want enthusiastic consent or nothing at all. I might get fewer bjs in my life compared to the guys that accept them, but at least I’ll have the satisfaction of knowing the ones I got were given freely, not reluctantly.
DMR June 21, 2012, 11:23 pm
“Maybe I’m just too idealistic, but I shouldn’t have to beg for sex.”
Haven’t been married long, have you?
bittergaymark June 21, 2012, 4:02 am
Well, the MOST homophobic are often the ones MOST tempted if you know what I mean. There have been lots of interesting studies on that…
Gay sexuality has come farther in the last twenty years than I thought it would in my entire lifetime… Thank you, Madonna! (No, seriously. I mean that. Madonna did more for gay rights than most of your generation can possibly ever realize. She was going full on GaGa way back when everybody thought it would KILL her career. Hell, many hoped it WOULD kill her career. And for well over a decade the tabloids constantly claimed she had AIDS every couple of months… Hey, why else would she give a rip? Such was the thinking in 1986…)
Now go make sure everybody votes the right way on that Washington State law Dan Savage keeps talking about!! 🙂
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:19 am
I SO wanted to go to the benefit/live taping of that, but sadly it was sold out by the time my friends replied 🙁 I’m listening to the podcast now, thanks for the reminder I’d totally forgotten!
And YES I totally support Ref 74 aka WA United for Marriage. Actually, I think I’ll sign up to volunteer for the phone bank for them. I don’t think I’ve really done some gay rights activism lately…
Anna June 21, 2012, 4:58 am
This just made me think of all the reasons I don’t enjoy going to bars and would rather sip wine on my porch with a close friend or two. It was written for guys so of course all of the girls were skinny except the “desperation fuck when you’re drunk enough.” Because who would ever soberly decide to have sex with a woman whose ribs aren’t sticking out? *eye roll* I’ve had wasted guys hit on me like that right at closing time after getting turned down by all the skinny girls at the bar. Now my size 14 body is acceptable to you? Fuck off!
mlippart June 21, 2012, 8:18 am
I gotta say, I was not a fan of this article, and it seemed to have a very different (and in my opinion, unwelcome) tone for a Dear Wendy piece. The “joke” at the end (god forbid any man would want to be intimate with an overweight woman) was pretty sophomoric, especially given how many posts/forum topics/sidebar talks we have had about body image issues. Also, I am a guy and have actually gone to a bar without the intended purpose of banging some drunk girl- true story! The “you might be accused of rape so find a less drunk girl” bit was pretty stupid and led to some super weird discussions in the commentary section that seemed to detract from usual Wendy good times. The whole thing just seemed really sexist (on both sides of the gender line) and (perhaps more importantly) not funny at all. It was like a low grade version of Cracked. This site can (and has, many times) do much better.
Brad June 21, 2012, 9:55 am
Am I the only one that noticed Lindsey Lohan looks like a chipmunk in this picture? Ugh. She used to be so hott….
Anna June 21, 2012, 2:08 pm
Yeah, that’s what crack does to people.
saridout June 21, 2012, 10:52 am
Seriously DW? You linked to some frat boy, lad rag, no-fat-chicks pickup article? Has DW been hacked, or is this what we should expect from now on? Really, is this a joke? That article does nothing but shame women for having a good time, being themselves, being overweight… Don’t be the female bartender? How is that advice?
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 2:45 pm
Its really a shame that by me saying its always good to be cautious, that every interpreted it as me saying if you get raped, its your fault. Of course that is far from what I meant and certainly do not agree with anyone who believes that under any circumstance, it is the victim’s fault.
It really is terrible though that so many of you were happy to imply I (a woman, just like you, with a daughter and many sisters) am anti-victim, and pro-defending rapists. Quite disgusting actually.
Lili June 21, 2012, 3:10 pm
Iseeshiny said it perfectly, the ‘be cautious’ thing is just words. Like, I could say to all my friends screaming ‘unicorns poop rainbows’ at the top of your lungs and doing tasmanian devil style whirls around threatening people prevents rape. We aren’t labeling any individual as pro-rapist, far from it. But we’re trying to illustrate that certain mentalities are whats keeping the rape culture going. Thinking that we can take precautions that will be enough is one of them.
And, I’m kinda confused by this…
“It really is terrible though that so many of you were happy to imply I (a woman, just like you, with a daughter and many sisters) am anti-victim, and pro-defending rapists. Quite disgusting actually” cuz it sounds like..I can’t be racist because I have black friends?
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 3:13 pm
Leaving the conversation now.
JK June 21, 2012, 3:13 pm
FWIW I´m with you, lbh.
And you can bet whatever you want that I´m going to teach my daughters to take every precaution they can.
Lili June 21, 2012, 3:24 pm
But, where’s the line at having taken enough precautions? Precautions are reassuring, but is it so wrong to want to shift the attention to the rapists and not precautions?
JK June 21, 2012, 3:30 pm
No, of course it´s not wrong. But seeing as I´m not in a position to prevent any type of crime from “the other side” all I can do is take every precaution I can for myself, and educate my daighters to do the same.
Of course it would be amazing to do whatever you want without fear of being robbed/raped/ beaten, etc. But we live in the real world, unfortunately, so prevention is all we have.
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 4:09 pm
But WHERE do you draw the line with these precautions? Like I said above, and I feel like I am beating a dead horse here….
Is going for a jog alone at 4pm, 6pm, 8pm, 10pm, 12am, or 3am, or 6am okay?
Can I wear a sports bra when I jog if it’s hot out? Or a tank top? or a loose t shirt?
Can I have 1 drink or 3 drinks or 5 drinks or does it depend on the bar or the people I am with or the time of night or how much eye make up I have on or how much I like to dance?
Can I smile at a guy who makes eye contact with me? What if I strike up a conversation? What if I dance with him?
It’s up to each individual person to decide what they feel comfortable doing, everywhere, all the time. And lbh for the record I think a “Be Safe!” as your son, daughter, friend, anyone walks out the door is totally appropriate and a wonderful gesture.
It’s when you get into “every precaution I can for myself” territory that I start to get pissy. I could argue you could carry a metal safe in your wallet with you when you are out and about, but you don’t. Ugh, I’m so tired I don’t know if this is even useful.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 4:27 pm
🙂
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 4:46 pm
🙂
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 4:56 pm
🙂
I wanted to be in on the smiling, too!
katie June 21, 2012, 6:33 pm
this how i see the world:
Is going for a jog alone at 4pm, 6pm, 8pm, 10pm, 12am, or 3am, or 6am okay? no one can tell you, you should just jog when you feel the most comfortable. i actually hate jogging, but if i was to do it, i would do it right at or just before morning rush hour/stores opening time. i would feel the most safe at that time because business people would be on their way to work, meaning that there would be people in the streets commuting, meaning that if someone was to grab me and do anything -rape, murder, kidnap to mexico, mug me- there is a larger chance that they wouldnt have the balls to do it while so many people are watching, and there is a larger chance that a good samaritan would help me if they heard me screaming. for me, that is taking “every precaution I can for myself”. do i still deserve something bad happening to me? no. do i feel better about my situation while jogging? yes.
do you judge me because i take the time to think about my surroundings before i act? because i take the culmination of my life experiences and my knowledge into account when i think about my actions and how they might impact my safety?
AliceInDairyLand June 21, 2012, 8:50 pm
*facepalm*
“It’s up to each individual person to decide what they feel comfortable doing, everywhere, all the time.”
Again.
“It’s up to each individual person to decide what they feel comfortable doing, everywhere, all the time.”
I would personally say that I avoid jogging during rush hour or anywhere around it like the plague because I fear for my life in some of those crosswalks. I was not judging you or anyone else, hence the quote I just put up twice. I just think that telling your daughter or yourself “to take every precaution you can” sets up a situation where there is always just a little bit more than you can do.
Instead, I think the conversation needs to be… “Katie does X, Y, Z to make her feel comfortable in her surroundings. Alice does A, B, C to feel comfortable in her surroundings. These may be different, but REGARDLESS they make each person feel better about doing their day-to-day activities despite the fact that none of this really protects either Katie or Alice from the only wrongdoer in the whole situation: the rapist.”
katie June 21, 2012, 9:02 pm
if you think the conversation should be that, then it should be said that way. it shouldnt be framed as everyone has been doing for the last two days where taking precautions to feel better about day-to-day activities is victim blaming, because thats what been happening.
katie June 21, 2012, 6:37 pm
oh, and as for your wallet example- do you know how often i think about my wallet getting stolen from me? do you think that if it was possible/feasible/not the hugest hassle in the world i WOULD carry a metal safe in my pocket?
i know i cant carry a metal safe in my pocket… but what i do is zip up my purse if im around a lot of people (like a mall) and i hug my purse close to my body. my mom locks her purse to her cart when she goes to the grocery store with the strap that your supposed to restrain children with, for gods sake, and thats wrong? so just because we cant all carry around metal safes (100% certain nothing will get stolen), we cant do anything else? its 100% or its nothing? that doesnt make sense.
Kristina June 21, 2012, 7:55 pm
Katie, no one is judging you for taking precautions such as jogging around rush hour when there are more people around…it’s just that this idea that doing that AUTOMATICALLY makes you safe is false security. It may make YOU personally feel safer, but in reality, you are not any safer. So go ahead, do anything that makes YOU feel safer, because ultimately everyone should be able to feel safe, but it’s more about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, than anything you have done or not done to protect yourself.
I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the US, and have only lived in cities my whole life, so I have a lot of street sense. I have no problem walking from my car late at night to my apartment because the odds are so highly stacked in my favor. That doesn’t mean I throw all caution to the wind. I still do things like look behind me when I walk, make sure my purse is zipped/buttoned and close to me, I walk quickly and confidently, make sure I am paying attention (not texting or on the phone). I also choose to live in a building with 24/7 security, and park my car in a place with 24/7 security. But I don’t do things like make sure I never wear expensive jewelry–I always wear 3 rings on my fingers, which have a lot of sentimental value–and monetary value–if I decided that it was unsafe not to wear my rings at certain times, I would be giving in to the idea that I can be hurt or victimized at any time–which simply is not true based on statistics. For the record, I’ve never been mugged, beaten, raped, or in any other way victimized by a stranger. But I have been by people I know. That’s where the real danger lies. There is no harm in taking precautions to have a personal sense of safety; but I choose not to live in a world where I am living in constant fear of something terrible happening to me, and because I choose to do what I want, I am the one in power, not the rapists or criminals. If I were to carry my money around in a metal safe, what happens if someone steals my metal safe? Should I carry around a metal safe inside a locked cage? Should I put double locks on my metal safe? There is no “one size fits all” way to prevent yourself from being victimized–carrying a metal safe around instead of a wallet only adds more burden and weight to the problem–instead of addressing a solution to the root problem.
When you (general you) subscribe to the belief that anything can happen to you at anytime, and that you must do everything within your power to protect yourself, that not only puts yourself into a fear-inducing bubble all the time, but that belief also causes an individual to automatically shift the blame onto oneself when something does happen, and that you will always have to do something extra to stop yourself from whatever that new problem will be.
You can go to whatever lengths you want where you feel the most safe and protected Katie, but I’m simply explaining how the logic doesn’t work. If you feel safer, then keep doing what you’re doing. Feeling safe and in control is the most important thing 🙂
katie June 21, 2012, 8:13 pm
“and because I choose to do what I want, I am the one in power, not the rapists or criminals.”
that is exactly what i have been saying! i actually, literally, said it yesterday-
“because i feel, if i listen to my gut and trust my instincts, i CAN control it, atleast to some miniscule degree. it makes me feel powerFUL, not powerLESS. to know that if i can take my own personal safety into account in my day to day interactions with the general public i might be able to avoid danger (any danger!!) makes me feel good. it makes me feel confident, competent, and strong.”
“There is no “one size fits all” way to prevent yourself from being victimized” -thats why this ENTIRE time i have been talking about decisions certain people make about their own lives, and the situations they personally feel comfortable in.
“but that belief also causes an individual to automatically shift the blame onto oneself when something does happen,” –i dont believe this. i just dont. the two can peacefully co-exist. trying to be safe does NOT automatically shift the blame onto oneself when something happens. can you explain how that happens? can you explain WHY the two ideas can exist? because, going by that logic, everyone everywhere at all times should just not care about anything at all ever- because if they do care, if they do try, if anyone ever tries to control things that *might* be out of their control, its their fault. so its their fault that their cat died (they tried by giving it food), its their fault their boyfriend broke up with them (they tried to maintain a relationship), its their fault the bananas turned brown (they tried to eat them fast enough), and then its also their fault that they were raped (they tried by leaving situations they deemed sketchy)…. ect. it just doesnt make sense.
Fabelle June 21, 2012, 9:09 pm
Sorry I’m addressing you again @katie, I don’t mean to single you out, but since your confusion in this debate seems so specific, I can’t help but try to jump in & explain–
Nobody is judging the decisions individuals make regarding their personal safety. You’re following & agreeing with most of the arguments being made here, but then your understanding falls off because you’re applying it to yourself. Women like you (and me! I’d probably take similiar precautions if I were a jogger) or anyone else who prefers being careful ARE NOT the ones contributing to victim-shaming and rape culture. No one is saying that– we’re saying, basically, that if you are a woman who DOES take all precautions, yet gets raped anyway, you will most likely blame yourself. Why? Because if “I’m doing all I can to keep safe” is always on your mind, your mind will betray you under the circumstances of anything happening. Even if, logically, you KNOW it wasn’t your fault, you might think “I should’ve turned left, instead of right…it was a little darker on that street, I should have noticed…”
Not only that, society at large has been consuming safety warnings forever, so when a lottt of people hear about a rape– they look at the circumstances. Read the comments on any news site, under a report about a rape. It happened at 11 pm? “what was she doing out then, stupid girl” She got roofied? “this is why women shouldn’t talk to strangers at bars, what is wrong with people nowadays”
The solution isn’t “let’s all just stop caring!” it’s more like, “let’s stop speculating and rationalizing, and do whatever we feel comfortable with to protect ourselves.”
(P.s. I apologize for the length, & if I seem to be trying to speak for anyone else who’s been consistently in this debate, but I’m just trying to clarify some of the repeating themes)
Katie June 21, 2012, 9:22 pm
this makes a lot of sense. and im sorry, but i cant help BUT to apply what is said to myself, because im the one who is forming these thoughts, and im the one who originally was uncomfortable with going home from a bar with a stranger, and then i was informed that is victim blaming…
and again, ill apply what you said to every other aspect of life where something shitty happens- ““I should’ve turned left, instead of right…it was a little darker on that street, I should have noticed…” -this could be applied to anything else… if only i had looked into the apt more before i got robbed, if only i had thought to spend the extra money to park my car in a safe place, if only, if only… i think that is a natural response, as you said, for your mind to give you. i just stop marching in the parade when i am told that by even trying to effect it (ill try to find the safest apt! ill park my car in some place with 24/7 security! whatever) i am somehow negatively effecting real victims and shifting blame onto myself when or if something bad does happen. everything makes sense until that point….
katie June 22, 2012, 7:14 am
its just that the only thing i could do that should ever be labeled as victim blaming is actually going to a victim and telling them that its their fault because of ___ that __ happened to them, or openly saying that any sexual assault victims should have made better choices that day or something.
encouraging safety is not.
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 3:35 pm
I was not saying you are anti-victim or pro-rapist. I’m not judging you personally, nor do I think that wanting to keep your daughter safe is a bad thing. I think that in our society, this idea that there are things that women do that “invite” rape ie dressing a certain way, passing out at parties, etc, shift the blame from the rapist to the victim, because it ties in with the whole “boys will be boys” mentality. It suggests that men simply cannot control themselves when faced with an unconscious/attractive woman and that it is up to women to keep those bad boys in line by not giving them the wrong idea or being “that kind of girl.”
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 3:43 pm
Me saying be careful suggests nothing other than being careful.
I’m not saying be careful or…
I’m not saying be careful because…
I’m not saying be careful and…
I’m not saying be careful if…
I’m just saying be careful PERIOD. Please don’t add words after the end of my 2 word sentence that don’t exist.
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 3:58 pm
I must have missed the part where I did that.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 4:02 pm
It was where you said by me saying be careful, I’m really suggesting its the victim’s fault that they get raped because they weren’t careful. (your post right before this one)
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:10 pm
I’m not sure I follow your argument LBH. Its appearing to me that you’re defending your right to say Be careful. We’re not knocking, but the truth is, they are words, no is a word. Words SHOULD stop rapes, but they don’t. Can we please talk about what does stop rapes. It’s going to be a LONG complex talk, but one society needs to be having more so than be careful talks.
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 4:31 pm
Lili, you are desperately trying to make it sound like I am making an argument. I’m not.
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:36 pm
Ah, tones are hard to decipher on the internet. I think we’re on the same side though, just have different lenses 🙂
lets_be_honest June 21, 2012, 4:44 pm
🙂 I think we are ALL on the same page. Rapists are bad and the only people responsible for rapes are rapists. Isn’t that what we ALL have been saying basically?
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:53 pm
We got wrapped up in nuances/language nuisances and admittedly, some of us are more ‘end rape culture activists’ than others, and thats life. I think in the end though a discussion like this where both parties walk away better informed of the other’s struggles and views can make us better as a whole! Esp since we are all on the SAME side 😀
iseeshiny June 21, 2012, 4:57 pm
Yay!
Lili June 21, 2012, 4:58 pm
😀 More smiles.
Addie Pray June 21, 2012, 9:55 pm
Well done, BGM, well done.
bittergaymark June 22, 2012, 12:27 am
Yeah, Wendy should start paying me as my comments sure do cause threads to BLOW UP regarding post counts and total number of views…
Caris June 21, 2012, 11:07 pm
All I have to say to this entire thread is: Oh My God. I THINK I read ALL the comments. I could be wrong though.
Here are my thoughts:
1) Criminals are bad and it’s always THEIR fault
2) There is nothing wrong with trying to be as safe as possible (not walk around the street distracted and looking at your phone, for example)
3) Just because you are trying to be as safe as possible (remember this means different things to different people) does NOT in ANY way mean that you are blaming a victim for what happened to them.
4) Unfortunately, shit happens and taking precautions sometimes (many times?) is useless, but it doesn’t mean we should go around without a care in the world doing whatever the hell we want.
5) Yes, we (society) should focus on how to prevent rapists (and all other criminals) from raping (or committing other crimes) , but (call me a pessimist if you want) I doubt we would ever completely get rid of crimes. (Therefore, I do what’s in my power and try to be as safe as I can, and NO, if something does happen it is NOT my fault.)
6) I HIGHLY doubt that RR (lbh, jk, katie) was trying to victim blame rape victims.
p.s: I am NOT looking for an argument or anything with this post.
JK June 22, 2012, 7:39 am
Thank you Caris!!
GatorGirl June 22, 2012, 9:10 am
Awesome post. I wish there was a love thumbs up button.
lets_be_honest June 22, 2012, 9:44 am
great summary Caris!