The following DW Rant is written by guest contributor, Dennis Hong. For clarification on this post, please see the follow-up that appears here.
I’d like to tell you about a woman I know. I’ll call her Jodie, and you might have a friend just like her.
Now, Jodie isn’t unattractive at all, but she’s not particularly attractive either. If we were to rate her looks on a totally-subjective, totally-superficial scale of 1–10, she’d fall squarely at a 5. She’s the Olive Garden of feminine looks – perfectly decent, but nothing to drool over.
Jodie also puts zero effort into her physical appearance. Her hairstyle can best be described as “disheveled,” the vast majority of her wardrobe consists of flannels, and she absolutely positively refuses to wear any makeup. Ever.
“I want a guy who likes me for who I am,” she proclaims. “I shouldn’t have to be fake.”
Perhaps not too surprisingly, Jodie is rarely asked out on a date. She’s less than thrilled about this, and, yet, she refuses to compromise her principles. So, she just keeps waiting… and waiting… and waiting.
As a guy, I have so many ideas I want to fling at her, in the hopes that at least one or two will stick. But, I know her mind is made up. And that’s why I’m taking to the internet. The Jodie I know won’t budge, but maybe you yourself are a Jodie, and maybe you’ll be open to my suggestions….
Here’s the deal: Guys are superficial. You’ve heard it before, and I’m saying it again. Physical appearance will always be the first thing that attracts us to a woman. If your personality is a 10, but your looks are a 5, you’ll draw the attention of nowhere near as many men as the woman with a 5 for personality and a 10 for looks. It may seem unfair, but here’s something else you’ve heard that I’ll say again: Life is unfair. Deal with it.
So how do you deal with it? Simple. You just have to put a little more effort into your appearance and even up the score a bit. Wear clothes that are stylish and form-fitting. Do your hair (whatever “do” refers to). Make it all smooth and silky, like in those shampoo commercials. Wear makeup.
“Now hold on a second,” you fire back. “Why should I expend all this effort just to impress a bunch of superficial douchebags? What’s wrong with waiting for the guy who isn’t shallow, who’ll see me for the glimmering diamond I am on the inside?”
Well, that’s great… in theory. But in the real world, here’s the problem: If you take the brilliant little gem that is your personality, and you bury it under a mound of dirt, and you deem that the only men worthy of you are the ones willing to dig through the dirt… well, guess what? Few men will oblige, because the world is full of other personalities – rubies, emeralds, sapphires, and yes, cubic zirconia. All of them are polished and gleaming, and they’ll be the ones the guys actually notice. While you hide your amazing personality behind an amazingly bland exterior, there are plenty of other women who put effort into both their interiors and their exteriors. Guess who wins? (And remember, it’s not just the douchebags who are attracted to the pretty facades. If you make guys dig, yeah, you’ll weed out the douchebags. But I guarantee you’ll also weed out a ton of great guys).
If you’re a Jodie, and you want to attract someone, then you simply have to spiff up your looks. No, you don’t have to wear makeup (I admit, I was being purposely inflammatory in the title). And you don’t have to brush on the frosted blue eyeshadow, or pencil in that black line around your lips, or feather your bangs, or do whatever it is that women do for makeup these days. [Well, it’s not penciling a black line around their lips… — editor] Just put some effort into your appearance. Make us notice you and then blow us away with your personality. Don’t just expect us to dig through a layer of muck when we have no reason to believe there’s anything worthwhile under there.
And this goes for men, too. If I’m trying to meet more women, then I’ll do my damnedest to make myself look good. You will never see me out in public wearing a torn t-shirt, unwashed jeans, ratty hair, and just generally looking like I’m one brown-bagged bottle of whiskey above homelessness. Yeah, sure, some guys can pull off the jaundiced wino look and still have women flock to them. But frankly, I’m not high enough on that 1–10 scale to do so.
Jodie certainly isn’t. And chances are, you’re not, either. And that’s why we “average” folks have to consider our options wisely. We can stick to our principles and refuse to doll ourselves up and seethe at how shallow the opposite sex is and end up all bitter and jaded about dating. Or, we accept that we have to play the game, and we figure out how we can fix up our facades so that plenty of the opposite sex will want to experience the awesomeness that is us on the inside.
Now, excuse me while I go feather my bangs.
Dennis Hong engineers happiness at WordPress.com by day. By night, he is a relationships and comedy writer, which can be redundant or an oxymoron, depending on your perspective. Dennis is the creator of Musings on Life and Love, a group blog for sharing life lessons, and LemonVibe, a relationship advice site for couples. You also can find him on Twitter (he is not the creator of Twitter).
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AliceInDairyland January 30, 2014, 12:40 pm
Oh no.
Christy January 30, 2014, 12:42 pm
Jesus Christ. Every day I become a little happier I’m a lesbian. FWIW, I was attracted to gf at first glance, and she was wearing no makeup and a flannel shirt.
something random January 30, 2014, 1:03 pm
I love a man in flannel. And I think a woman can look hot in comfortable, cuddle up look. But I’m not into shirts that are three sizes too big
Michelle.Lea January 30, 2014, 1:09 pm
yea when i met my now husband, i wore jeans and old ginormous tshirts to work every day (where we met). didnt seem to phase him.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 2:19 pm
I think I would have made an awesome lesbian. I would get all the ladies. And I would like all the ladies. Le sigh.
^ Maybe one of my dumber comments, but it’s true.
Milla January 30, 2014, 3:14 pm
Ugh, same here (well, I’m bi, but married to a lady, and will never ever put up with that gendered bullshit again). So long as you’re hygienic, who cares? My wife wears a face full of makeup every day because she’s super self-conscious about her skin. I don’t wear makeup very often (aside from lipstick, which I loooove). Makeup and dressing snazzily should be an option, not a requirement.
Also, the other day for my wife’s birthday dinner, I did a mask and lactic acid peel, pore cleansed, deep conditioned my hair, shaved my legs, plucked my eyebrows, put my hair up, did full makeup, and it took FOREVER, not to mention about a billion products. Sure, it was nice to look nice, and it’s not like I have to do that every day, but guys can get away with a shower and a shave to meet current cultural requirements.
rieux January 30, 2014, 6:21 pm
OK, so I really hate when people are like “Men are this” and “Men are that.” Men are not all into the exterior. Dennis’s saying they are is a lot like men who sleep around and then proclaim it’s in their nature, or women who use sex to get ahead and then proclaim that all women do it. No, not ALL men/women do that stuff, nor do they have to, nor should they, but it’s an incredibly convenient excuse for people who want to behave like the lowest common denominator stereotype. And then they can pat themselves on the back for telling the “hard truths” (yeah, because telling women no one will like them if they’re not attractive is such a well-kept secret that NO ONE HAS EVER SAID BEFORE).
Sigh.
Also, calling someone’s unadorned face “a layer of dirt” and “muck” is really gross and hateful.
rieux January 30, 2014, 6:22 pm
I don’t know how this ended up as a reply to you Christy, but I guess it’s pertinent actually! You don’t have to be glad you’re a lesbian. Just be glad you’re not dating Dennis. (Sorry, Dennis. I’m sure you’re almost as nice a guy as you think you are, in most respects. But I mean, really. This was some sexist bullshit.)
kerrycontrary January 30, 2014, 12:42 pm
Dennis cracks me up. Not sure where I stand on this issue. I think its good to present your best self, not to attract dates, but because you never know who you’ll run into, like a coworker (yes, wearing a bit of makeup is part of dressing professionally–people statistically will consider you more competant. Be pissed if you want but it’s the way of the world).
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 12:50 pm
I don’t know I’m going to guess Jodie has other issues going on than what you’re gauging as her utter lack of care in her appearance.
For what it’s worth I barely wear make up (mascara and lip gloss, no foundation, eye shadow blush, eye liner or whatever) and never had the issue of finding someone to date a problem.
I am so glad I’m married and that he likes my disheveled curly hair. Your hair doesn’t have to look like the hair on commercials to be pretty!
TECH January 30, 2014, 1:16 pm
I agree. Jody probably has issues that extend beyond her lack of desire to wear makeup. I know a ton of women that don’t wear makeup, or wear very little, and are average looking, and have never had issues getting a date.
I also agree that your hair doesn’t need to look like something out of a Pantene commercial to look attractive. Those commercials are completely unrealistic. Most people can’t get their hair looking like that on their own.
Also, I am pretty low maintenance with my hair and make up. If I’m going out, I usually just wear tinted moisturizer, mascara, and lip gloss. I’ll straighten my hair or blow it out and I’m done in like 15 minutes. And I’ve done okay finding dates.
ApresMoi January 30, 2014, 2:36 pm
I don’t think he really means you have to look straight out of a hair commercial. We can all agree, he is being a bit tongue in cheek with the title and wording of his article. The underlying message is simply that we should not neglect our exterior, and honestly he is right! I also wear minimal make up, and my hair is DEFINITELY not on par with a Pantene model’s but hey, I still make the effort to look nice and presentable (on most days :P)
rachel January 30, 2014, 12:50 pm
Haha, I love Wendy’s inserted comment.
Kate January 30, 2014, 12:52 pm
I’m with Kerry (and Dennis) on this. I think there may be some guys who like a woman who appears very low-maintenance, and there are some women who don’t need to do much with themselves and still look great. But good grooming and dressing to flatter your body (which if you read it carefully, I think are all he’s really suggesting) are always advisable. That doesn’t mean you have to be super-girly and wear makeup and curl your hair unless that’s your personality / style, but you should be clean and polished and play up your good features I think.
Morgan January 30, 2014, 12:53 pm
Look, do I wish I lived in a world where professional dress either included makeup for both men and women or for neither men nor women. Of course I do. But, well, I don’t.
And sometimes buying $200 worth of makeup at sephora is fun, dammit. That’s about the extent of my care factor on this one. Of all the structural inequalities in the world, makeup is the one I’ve mostly given up on.
Smooth or shiny hair, however, I will object to. I’ll put on some mascara, but these curls don’t do smooth and shiny. And I hate that I feel the need to straighten my hair for job interviews or pull it back into a sleek bun that hides the curls. Make up takes 5 minutes. That shit takes hours.
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 12:55 pm
Yes to the curls. I have definitely felt curl shame, haha. My hair does not have to be sleek and shiny to be pretty 🙂
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 12:55 pm
Yes to the curls. I have definitely felt curl shame, haha. My hair does not have to be sleek and shiny to be pretty 🙂
Kate January 30, 2014, 12:59 pm
Yeah, I kinda cringe too when I hear hair has to be straight/smooth to be pretty. Because I have natural curls. But I think when guys say that, all they mean is that your hair should look healthy and not dry/fried/dirty. Curls are always pretty if they’re taken care of.
Do you not like how your hair looks and feels when you get a blowout though? I do.
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 1:02 pm
some curls are too coarse, crazy for a blow out. i tried once, it didn’t work, the lady gave up and i went back to curls.
and sometimes curls are just frizzy! you can do a lot to tame them, but i literally feel like i have another being on my head some days. they do what they want, no matter how much morrocan oil i put on them!
kate January 30, 2014, 1:06 pm
Gotcha. Well, wild, course, natural hair looks great if it’s cut well and cared for. And obviously guys fall in love with curly-haired women all the time. That shampoo-commercial reco from Dennis is going too far, I think.
ktfran January 30, 2014, 1:46 pm
So, this hair topic. When I went pixie four years ago, several female friends and an aunt told me I would never get a boyfriend with short hair. So, I better grow it back out.
I’ve been on plenty of dates and have had a couple several month relationships since then.
But at the same time, when talking to a dude in a bar, they’ll often say “I’m usually not attracted to girls with short hair, but you’re cool.” Umm, THANKS?!?
Anyway, I don’t have anything to add. But apparently, hair does matter to a lot of people.
I’m pretty confident with my short hair. Well, confident in general. So maybe that makes a difference.
barleystonks January 30, 2014, 5:09 pm
When I told my husband I was going with a pixie cut, he threw a fit. A few years later, he threw another fit when I said I was going to grow it back out. *eyeroll* My takeaway from this (and a few other guys who have said the same thing to either myself or various other girls) is that guys THINK they want long hair on a girl, but in reality it doesn’t actually matter as long as it suits you.
Abby Normal January 31, 2014, 2:09 am
Yeah I hate the whole “short hair is unattractive and you will never get a man!” bullshit. I met my boyfriend while I had a mohawk and he didn’t mind it at all. I’m finally letting it grow out and I’m actually kind of getting annoyed at how hard my shoulder length hair is to take care of now because it’s thick and fine, doesn’t really hold styling, and turns into a puffball when it’s humid out.
applescruffs January 30, 2014, 7:44 pm
I can straighten my hair. But I don’t. This is what my hair looks like, I have Jewish curls, they’re awesome, and they don’t make me more or less professional!
something random January 30, 2014, 12:53 pm
Eww, olive garden.
I agree with the general notion of putting your best foot forward and working with your strengths. I disagree with the idea that putting Paris Hilton money into makeup and clothes and PHD time into trying to match an air brushed supermodel’s outfit, hair, and style is the best strategy for finding a mate. Looks matter; they just do. But a personality can make or break you.
If I were going to advise Jodie on how to play up her strengths I would tell her to invest in comfortable clothes that were also flattering. Cashmere feels awesome to wear, look at, and touch.(edit so can cotton if it isn’t all wrinkled and baggy) It never hurts anyone to keep a healthy physique. And I would probably tell her her choose a lower maintenance haircut and invest a few extra minutes cleaning it up everyday or putting it back in a simple but smart way.
I would not advise a women to wear makeup if it isn’t her thing. There are plenty of straight men that can’t stand the high maintenance look. But a nice moisterising sunblock, and balmed smooth lips are not too hard to maintain. And of course good breath and a nice smell are super important. Don’t be stinky, people
iseeshiny January 30, 2014, 1:05 pm
This plus a million!
kerrycontrary January 30, 2014, 1:14 pm
I honestly think the easiest thing people can do that will have the biggest affect is plucking/shaping/waxing their eyebrows. I don’t think you have to wear makeup, but like you said, if you put on moisturizer, have good brows, and wear chapstick you’ve won 75% of the battle.
SasLinna January 30, 2014, 1:19 pm
Exactly. I do three things: Plucking my eyebrows, putting on moisturizer, and brushing my hair.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:25 pm
haha i should take a photo of my brows and upload it for you all to see…also I don’t often brush my hair, it is really wavy/curly and a lot of times brushing it reduces it to a giant nest of frizzy hell. I am super au natural and think confidence has more to do with what you attract than anything. I can go out to a bar in a flannel shirt, minimal makeup, messy hair, and get hit on by every guy in there if I own it, and don’t smell (which I personally think is pretty important).
something random January 30, 2014, 1:32 pm
You must be naturally attractive and have a charismatic personality
SasLinna January 30, 2014, 1:32 pm
Natural eyebrows can look very nice IMO.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 1:45 pm
Now you have to post a picture. I agree completely that confidence and personality are enough. If they aren’t, you aren’t the one for me.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:55 pm
haha if I post a picture of just my eyebrows you guys will think I am some swamp creature/cousin it hybrid that rarely emerges from my den into the light of day.
Nookie January 31, 2014, 10:16 am
I’m afraid to pluck my eyebrows, I won’t have any left if I start!
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 1:43 pm
Aside from wearing cashmere, all your suggestions are very likely things she already does. Most people get haircuts. Most people wear clothes that somewhat fit them. Sunblock, chapstick, brushing teeth (???) – all things pretty much everyone does. He’s not suggesting she has poor hygiene. He’s suggesting no one will ever date her because she’s not “hot.”
Cam January 30, 2014, 1:59 pm
I disagree- it sounds to me that Dennis is saying she has a sloppy appearance. Hence the word disheveled he uses to describe her. Even if you have a great personality, I’m not going to be attracted to you if you look a mess.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:19 pm
Then Jodie probably doesn’t want to date you. Sounds like she wants to date someone who doesn’t care if she’s sloppy. More power to her. I wish more people held out for what they actually want.
something random January 30, 2014, 2:24 pm
I was trying to make a distinction between “putting a little more effort” into your looks versus the personalized over-the-top Jodie wish list described. Maybe I should have wrote “Personality can make or break you (This means you Dennis, aren’t you still single?)” to make that more obvious.
I don’t know how much Dennis is exaggerating “zero effort” on who I must assume is now an ex-friend. And I’ve observed plenty of men and women who buy and wear ill-fitting clothes and who don’t appear to put ANY effort into personal hygiene except a basic shower. Maybe they brush their teeth, but if breath is stinky nobody can tell.
I completely reject the idea that nobody will want to date his friend because she isn’t “hot”.
scooze January 30, 2014, 1:55 pm
Very true. It’s better to wear no makeup than to wear it badly. For women that really can’t get behind makeup, find other ways to put your best foot forward. For every style out there, there are some ways of implementing it that look more flattering than others. And a smile, white teeth and kempt hair will let your personality shine through.
EricaLnyy January 30, 2014, 12:54 pm
Dennis always manages to vocalize my own opinions in a way I never could. And I’m not surprised that I totally agree with him here. You always want to present your best self to the world, not JUST for the benefit of attracting others sexually, but because why not? Why wouldn’t you?
Bittergaymark January 30, 2014, 12:59 pm
I agree. It always AMAZES me how (even in LA) many women simply go around looking like shit.
iseeshiny January 30, 2014, 1:01 pm
Um. I am not judging anyone here but here is a fun anecdote: I am average face and body-wise and up until my current job I wore jeans and tshirts exclusively. I’ve worn makeup once in the last ten years. That was for my senior prom eight years ago. I have never had any issues finding people who wanted to date me. Ever. Good looking, non-disgusting, smart, funny people, too! So… there’s that.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:14 pm
maybe you aren’t average, just think you are?
iseeshiny January 30, 2014, 1:30 pm
Aw, that’s kind of you. As much as I’d like that to be true, I am not an Olive Garden but an irish pub – lots of personality 🙂 Also lots of beer.
Diablo January 30, 2014, 1:30 pm
What is average, anyway? How does it apply to a specific person?
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:42 pm
yeah I have this mindset as well and sort of thought right after I typed the above-I am sure you are more than average to many people. I do think there are certain people are just naturally attractive in an objective way-but other than that its all a crap shoot. Guys I think are sexy as all get out my friends are not into and vice versa. I do think people can have certain things that are naturally attractive though-confidence, good personality, etc. and if you have a relatively put together facade those things will be more or less universally attracting.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:42 pm
yeah I have this mindset as well and sort of thought right after I typed the above-I am sure you are more than average to many people. I do think there are certain people are just naturally attractive in an objective way-but other than that its all a crap shoot. Guys I think are sexy as all get out my friends are not into and vice versa. I do think people can have certain things that are naturally attractive though-confidence, good personality, etc. and if you have a relatively put together facade those things will be more or less universally attracting.
SasLinna January 30, 2014, 1:02 pm
If we’re going to entertain this sort of reasoning, then flattering clothes seem a lot more important than make-up. I practically never wear make-up, never had trouble meeting guys. I do have nice clothes though. If a guy told me I should wear make-up I’d ditch him.
scattol January 30, 2014, 1:04 pm
Dennis’ point has even been proven scientifically:
There are studies (that I can’t find at the moment) that states that makeup evens the odds between women with different looks bringing them much closer to all be equally attractive ie. makeup helps Dennis’s 5 more than it does a 9.
Michelle.Lea January 30, 2014, 1:08 pm
Um, she should stick to what she wants to do. and you know what? she WILL find someone that likes her for HER. I’d not a super attractive chick. I’m average. anyone that knows me also knows that i’m super low maintenance. i wear what i want, when i want. oh there are times i’ll get dressed up or wear makeup, but that’s not the norm. i’ve been married twice, and the current one (who is totally my lobster) has seen me at my best and worst. and i know he truly loves me for me.
the only advice i’d give anyone is to be confident in yourself. That is a huge attraction.
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 1:17 pm
you don’t really want him to be your lobster, http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/lobster.asp. there are some much less flashy animals that mate for life 🙂 one of them is a parasitic worm though, guess that’s not as cute a lobsters holding claws 😉
Michelle.Lea January 30, 2014, 2:54 pm
lol i dont know if i want to read that! total Phoebe reference, and i’ve managed to keep my illusion lol
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 2:58 pm
ross should have corrected her! he must have known better 😉
Paki January 30, 2014, 2:51 pm
points for the friends reference
Sue Jones January 30, 2014, 1:10 pm
When I was 20 I wore no makeup nor did I shave and I was a man magnet. When you get older you need to do a bit more maintenance…. sadly. But I recently read an article by a woman who never wears makeup, etc. and scorns women who do… and guess what? She is already cute THIN and BLONDE. So already “american girl privileged”. I don’t like it at all when people act as though wearing makeup or not is this kind of feminist statement. It is a choice. Nothing more nothing less…
iseeshiny January 30, 2014, 1:17 pm
Yes! Let’s let people do whatever they want to do with their bodies and not judge or shame them.
Moneypenny January 30, 2014, 2:15 pm
Hey now, what’s wrong with being blonde?! 😛 I’ve never understood why being blonde is held to some standard when at the same time statistically we are considered “dumber” and taken less seriously. I know this wasn’t your point, but we still get the fuzzy end of the lolipop!
Sue Jones January 30, 2014, 4:20 pm
Nothing is wrong with being blonde. Blondes are seen in some circles as more attractive (especially someone who is thin and blonde) and the rest of us can be a bit resentful of “blonde privilege”.
HmC January 30, 2014, 1:17 pm
More crude drivel from Dennis Hong. Nothanks.
It’s really not that difficult to tell if someone is fundamentally attractive even without bells and whistles, hell even if they are a little disheveled. I know plenty of people that like the low maintenance (ie. no make-up, T-shirts) look or even find it preferable in a partner, and more power to them. Yes you shouldn’t let yourself go to the point you reek or you’re way out of shape and not expect it to impact your social life. Duh. But make-up and fashionable clothes? Who gives a shit.
And this is coming from someone that wears make up and expensive clothes. And my husband really does not. And I couldn’t give less of a shit.
bethany January 30, 2014, 1:19 pm
There’s a difference between not being a slob and trying to look a certain way to attract a man.
I think EVERYONE should try to not be a slob.
And I’m going to leave it at that.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 2:20 pm
WBS
Erica January 30, 2014, 1:19 pm
I don’t agree with this at all. I mean you should always dress for the occasion. I’m not going to wear shorts if I’m going to an opera. I met by bf on an online site so it may be different. What caught my attention was the picture of him wearing a Captain America sweater while holding up the shield. Our first date was mini golf and both of us were in jeans and a t-shirt (My awesome Adventure Time t-shirt). I’m getting my PhD and most of my wardrobe are cheap shirt and jeans because even with a lab coat there’s a higher chance they are going to get ruined.
Also, I have the pale skin and dark circles of somebody who stays up too late and never sees the sun. I never wear makeup or wear anything that isn’t cotton cause of my sensitive skin. No problem getting a guy. If I were talking to Jodie, I’d tell her to dress in a way that will give her the most confidence. Confidence is super attractive.
theattack January 30, 2014, 1:22 pm
Okay, umm… duh? Of course men like women more when they’re made up to be prettier. That’s not news to anyone, especially your flannel-wearing, bare-faced friend. But there are plenty of men who like women just fine without it. I only started wearing mascara and blush a few months ago, and like others have commented, I’ve never had a lack of male attention.
I say that you need to put your reasonably best foot forward, and if that means that your hair and face are perfect, awesome. If it means that you showered and put on chapstick, that’s awesome too. You’ll eventually attract someone who appreciates that, and you won’t have to live out your life performing a morning routine that you hate every morning just to keep your husband from leaving you. Being untrue to yourself to get dates is just going to give your SO unreasonable expectations when your true lazy self comes back out.
theattack January 30, 2014, 1:31 pm
Not to mention that this shit is expensive and time-consuming.
starpattern January 30, 2014, 4:19 pm
Right! Ain’t nobody got time for that crap.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 1:26 pm
I like Jodie and wish she were my friend.
From experience, this is a crock of shit.
SasLinna January 30, 2014, 1:28 pm
Let’s all be friends with Jodie.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 1:32 pm
Let’s just hope she shaves her hoohah!
SasLinna January 30, 2014, 1:44 pm
Haha!
SasLinna January 30, 2014, 1:45 pm
If not, I’m sure Dennis would have included that as another valuable suggestion.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:55 pm
hahah on point LBH
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 1:31 pm
Almost all my male friends, and brother, don’t date women that wear make up. Period. Its their rule. I would hope everyone washes themselves, so I don’t think that’s a real factor.
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 1:33 pm
I agree. GGuy’s always said he’d rather a girl that wore no make than 6 pounds of it.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 1:39 pm
I just see this dumb thing as no different than saying all men like skinny girls or whatever. Peter doesn’t like when I wear makeup either. He also doesn’t like when I lose weight. Tight clothes? Nope. Naked? Yes.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:56 pm
the thing that sucks is I have struggled with occassional break-outs of adult acne (seriously post age 21) in recent years so find I really have to wear a base level of make-up out to feel confident which sucks and I am SO jealous of people with perfect skin. Even if they aren’t pretty, or whatever if they have great skin I just like want to be them.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:22 pm
I wish I had better skin. I’ve documented my adult acne pretty well on here. If I want a smaller outbreak, I simply can’t wear makeup. I’ve gotten much more confident about it though (not caring/being barefaced). I basically don’t give a shit. If you think I look bad, I don’t care because you’re not the type of person I’m trying to impress.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 2:34 pm
yeah I try to have that attitude too, and do to a certain extent but yeah it is difficult to have the same level of confidence bare-faced that I do if I put on a little face make-up. Although I started wearing makeup on my face in 8th grade bc the awful girls at my middle school told me it was necessary to be their friend (I had perfect skin all through middle school, highschool, and college). I have basically like 6-8 months of good skin and then will go through a bad spell for a month or two. It’s those times I up the ante on the face makeup but yeah at a certain point I don’t really care too much (will go majority of places sans makeup). I have been using this new product for awhile now which is actually the first thing to really work since I was on a script awhile back, so I am hoping this will stop this stupid cycle I go through.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:35 pm
What new product?
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 2:47 pm
Clinique Acne Solutions. I read like 300 reviews on it and started it in mid-December and my face right now is pretty much 100% clear although it did break out after I had been using it for a few weeks. I don’t know if it will stick, I kind of want to wait like 3-4 months and then give a full review but right now it is really great and I feel so much more confident. (runs to knock on wood).
Lyra January 30, 2014, 10:40 pm
I may have to try that. I’ve struggled with acne issues pretty much since I was 12. It’s pretty much cleared up because I went on Accutane for about 6 months in college, but I still notice small blemishes and my skin isn’t quite as clear as I hope it could be. My skin is usually clearer in the summer but when I’m stuck inside in the winter months I notice it gets worse.
_s_ January 30, 2014, 4:09 pm
Ugh, I feel you. I am in my mid-30s and in the last 6 months or so I’ve seriously been having acne issues and it’s driving me insane. I have a white collar job, and it is MORTIFYING to me to be at professional events with lawyers and big corporate guns and be visibly broken out. I can’t leave the house any more without concealer and foundation, and it doesn’t even really work because you can’t hide a whitehead the size of a volcano with some tan-colored liquid. SO embarrassing!!! (Muchacha, I too have serious eyebrows – are you my long lost twin or something??)
Miss MJ January 30, 2014, 4:14 pm
I may be doing it all wrong, but in my 30s, I still get break outs unless I only wash my face every night with Neutrogena Acne Bar Soap. Yes, the same stuff the dermatologist used to recommend for me as a teenager. I can use most higher end moisturizers for day and night and higher end makeup and not break out, but if I switch to any other cleanser, it’s break out city. I used to worry it would ruin my skin, but it’s not overly dry or overly oily or prematurely wrinkly or anything, so I just stick with that.
applescruffs January 30, 2014, 7:48 pm
Me too. 🙁
ApresMoi January 30, 2014, 2:52 pm
Come on now, does it really have to be one extreme or the other- 6 lbs or nothing? I also think its pretty lame to say you won’t date someone who wears make-up “as rule.” So, if you’re the kinda girl who likes to wear make-up, then you should be made to feel bad?
I wear minimal make up on a daily basis (blush, curl my eye lashes and lip gloss, sometimes eye shadow or eyeliner) but I don’t think any of this should be a pre req for dating or not dating.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 2:56 pm
a lot of guys say this without realizing that many girls always have a base level of makeup and you could just never tell, because they have been doing it so long and it looks “natural”. In high school I never wore much makeup and came to find out my senior year one of my best friends (who I thought was on the natural bus with me) flat ironed her hair every day and always had on mascara and eye liner and i just never knew because it was how I always saw her.
ApresMoi January 30, 2014, 3:17 pm
Agreed. I choose to wear minimal make up more often than not because I wouldn’t want to look drastically different from my “real” self on a day when I don’t want to/ don’t have time to put on make up. It still makes me feel more put together when I do have a little bit of make up on.
TaraMonster January 30, 2014, 4:20 pm
I think this is really true. I put mascara on and fill my eyebrows in everyday because I’m brownish-blond with blond highlights that also happen to be in my eyelashes and eyebrows. My eyebrows and eyelashes sorta disappear in the light because of the highlights. So I use brown mascara and a brownish tint on my brows. It takes like 2 minutes. It’s so basic you can’t even tell. I don’t like looking like I have a ton of makeup on.
Every guy I’ve ever dated thought I didn’t wear makeup until they saw me putting it on or I told them. I only do other stuff if I’m feeling a little fancy or going out (foundation and blush, MAYBE eyeshadow depending on how lazy I feel).
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 3:04 pm
Well, he was actually just comparing the two extremes…women who wear A LOT of makeup v women who wear none. Of course there are about a million variations in the middle. He also didn’t say “I will NEVER date” just his preference. Good grief, I wasn’t “shaming” anyone who does wear make up.
And, I do think it’s fine if you prefer makeup or no makeup. I have preferences on facial hair styling. It’s just what attractive to an individual…of course there are preferences.
ApresMoi January 30, 2014, 3:13 pm
The no make up dating rule was more for LBH’s brother, but I didn’t wanna make two replies. I replied to yours because you said no make up vs. 6 lbs and I thought whoa there can be a lot of in-betweens! Btw I hate how the word shaming is used for everything under the sun.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 10:02 pm
Its just a preference and who you are attracted to. I never took it as an insult to people that do wear makeup. I mean, hes got 4 sisters who all do. I do thing dating rules are dumb personally though. Most of them at least.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 2:21 pm
Add Jodie to our party for DW rejects – along with ramona, toothless groomsman, pothead hubby, … who else?
csp January 30, 2014, 4:17 pm
What about Gertrude from the holiday letter?
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 4:24 pm
yes! i knew i was forgetting someone recent. someone needs to be writing these downs so we can have an epic party at the end of the year for all rejects.
iseeshiny January 30, 2014, 4:30 pm
On the subject of the toothless groomsman, Prudie totally had a toothless boyfriend question today and she was so judgy! (I mean, it’s Prudence, so, yeah, but…)
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 1:26 pm
Good grief. A pile of dirt because you don’t wear makeup, process your hair, and prefer a certain type of shirt? FFS. I don’t usually wear makeup or “do” my hair, and I have an unhealthy obsession with wearing stripped shirts. I must look like a pile of manure.
bethany January 30, 2014, 1:42 pm
GG, you totally looked like a pile of manure when I met you. Just sayin’.
Jk. You were put together and looked very nice.
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 1:44 pm
Thanks!! I’m surprised I looked half decent because I was so flipping cold! I think I might have had mascara on. Maybe haha.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 1:58 pm
On this note, I am always amazed by the girls who look as good at the end of the night as they do at the beginning. Like a few of my friends are naturally gorgeous, then add the makeup and are like woah so pretty and then like after a night of drinking/dancing/out whatever still look basically perfect level of put-togetherness. I sadly cannot claim the same, I look like what the cat drug in-even if we were doing the same things the whole night. Explain? Ha
tbrucemom January 30, 2014, 2:45 pm
I’m glad to hear I’m not the only one who is obsessed with stripped shirts. My daughter teases me about it all the time! I’m wearing one as I type…
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 3:12 pm
GGuy says, way too often, “didn’t you wear that yesterday?” And I have to be all “no, that was my dark blue striped shirt, this one is black!” I just love them.
bethany January 30, 2014, 3:35 pm
I am wearing stripes today, too! I wear a lot of stripes. They’re my go-to.
CatsMeow January 30, 2014, 3:13 pm
I, too, have an unhealthy obsession with stripes. Let’s start a club!
Diablo January 30, 2014, 1:27 pm
Dennis, i respectfully but emphatically disagree. I get what you are saying and do agree that people have to maintain good personal hygiene and look like they have respect for themselves and know who they are. However, I utterly reject the 1 to 10 scale and scoring for people. I get that this paradigm has a great deal of cultural currency in the world in which I have lived, but i never made myself a part of it. I never put mousse in my hair in order to make someone like me, even when all the boys were doing it in the 80s. By the time I left high school, i was done with all that. Completely. And yes, it meant that i rarely picked up women in clubs for a quick bang. Again, not my values, and not because of any prudishness about sex. Everyone I ever slept with liked me for who I am, and i liked them. In this scenario, you can be very confident that people really like you, because there is no artifice, or at least as little as possible. My missus is a beautiful woman. She would not measure up on your scale, i’m pretty sure. (And I’m not saying her beauty is all in her soul. A lot of it is, but it’s also all over the outside of her, too. She provokes both desire and admiration.) She very rarely wears any makeup, and never did when we were young and dating either. When she does, she never wears much. And this looks better, much better, to me than women who cover themselves in a quarter inch thick coat of what M calls “clown sauce” in order to attract others. Ugh. The nature of makeup (at least in part) is that it reflects your insecurity. “I’m not good enough unless i do this and look like this.” Confidence is sexy, and a shit ton of makeup equals a lack of real confidence, in my view. It’s bravado, not self-assuredness.
I don’t dispute the general rightness of what you are saying as it functions in our culture and your life, but it’s nothing to do with me. It’s part of what’s wrong with our culture in fact. I find beauty where others do not. i find beauty that no one knows about. Maybe it’s a Western Canadian thing. I know places of such natural beauty that they would take your breath away, many of which are not on any map or known to anyone who has not been there. They are like my little secret, as is M. Just like life, people are complex flavours, there to be experienced. A relationship is a process, not a result or a rating. Rebut if you like, but my response would be “You do your thing and I’ll do mine. Mine works for me.”
Diablo January 30, 2014, 1:28 pm
Unless you’re just trying to stir up a heated debate, in which case, good job!
Kate January 30, 2014, 1:46 pm
“The nature of makeup (at least in part) is that it reflects your insecurity. “I’m not good enough unless i do this and look like this.” Confidence is sexy, and a shit ton of makeup equals a lack of real confidence, in my view. It’s bravado, not self-assuredness.”
I don’t think this is true. I agree that confidence is sexy, but makeup does not equal a lack of confidence, like, at all. Knowing that you have good features and how to play them up does not equal lack of confidence. Putting on something of a “face” to look more mature/polished/professional at work does not equal lack of confidence. Makeup does not equal “clown sauce.” Playing with makeup to enhance your beauty (if that’s your thing) is like doing something artistic. Even if you’re hiding behind it, to some degree, like if you have skin imperfections that you’re covering, does not mean you’re not confident.
ktfran January 30, 2014, 1:59 pm
Right? I’m in the “less is more” camp. With that being said, the older I get, the more tired I look. I feel better and look better when I cover a little bit of that up. But I’m in no way insecure. The opposite in fact. As I mentioned earlier.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 2:11 pm
yeah I agree. I don’t think lack of makeup makes you more confident. I think if you know how to play up your best features and look good however you feel good that is what is sexy and confident and that is what comes across to whomever you are trying to attract.
Diablo January 30, 2014, 2:13 pm
You guys appear to be using some new definition of “insecure.” You just said that you feel you look tired without makeup and feel and look (or is that “feel you look”) better when you cover up your actual appearance.
CatsMeow January 30, 2014, 3:20 pm
I dunno, I think there is at difference between “I think I look better with it” and “I think I look gross without it.”
I love makeup. Yes, I admit that for me, it’s partly due to my insecurities – I always have under eye circles and blemishes and uneven skin tone and invisible eyelashes – so I prefer to use makeup to “fix” those things. (I also have a suspicion that a lot of guys would wear makeup for similar reasons if it were socially acceptable. Once my male cousin asked to borrow my powder to cover up a zit, and he was so happy that it matched his skin tone. I made a comment like, “Don’t you wish you could wear makeup every day?” and he looked at me surprised and said, “How did you know??” But enough of this tangent). However, I also looooove being dramatic with makep, and that’s less about insecurities and more about me having fun and expressing myself.
ktfran January 30, 2014, 4:28 pm
INSECURE – (of a person) not confident or assured; uncertain and anxious.
Wearing a little bit of makeup. Eating well and staying thin. Dressing for my body type. Those things do not make me insecure. I know what works for me. I feel better doing them. When I feel better, I’m happier.
kerrycontrary January 30, 2014, 2:45 pm
Something that most straight men never seem to grasp is that makeup can be FUN for women (or men). It can be fun to paint your face. It can be fun to reflect your attitude on the outside with not only your clothes but also your makeup. Feeling relaxed? Put on some tinted moisturizer and a swipe of mascara. Feeling bold? Do a bright red or pink lip. Want to look insane and dance all night at the club? Here comes my purple eyeliner! Makeup is just a tool for a lot of women.
ApresMoi January 30, 2014, 2:56 pm
Exactly! I don’t think this should be now be about shaming (ugh i hate this word) people who wear make up. That’s really no better than shaming people who don’t!
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 3:02 pm
i don’t think we should shame either side. but, i think a blanket statement of if you dress nicer and wear make up you’ll get that guy you’re going after, just makes me feel gross. so it’s great if you do or don’t wear make up but the presence or lack thereof isn’t what gets you dates.
so yeah i don’t think it’s ok to go too far the other side either, but it’s nice to read a different male perspective.
ApresMoi January 30, 2014, 3:20 pm
I wonder how you guys feel about make over shows like What not to Wear? These are all about helping people (ok women) look more put together by changing their clothes, and doing hair/make up. Why deny the fact that putting effort into your appearance can make a difference in how others perceive you?
Is it the “how to get a man” intent behind this article what bugs you?
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:25 pm
Its the idea that she is wrong for not wanting to change something about herself. It makes it worse to me that it also says you have to change yourself if you want to score a man (who probably isn’t what you want anyway if you have to be different to get him).
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 3:28 pm
sure putting effort in to your appearance can affect that. i don’t know, i could care less how others perceive me? i’m happy how i am.
and yes the idea that you need to dress or look a certain way to get anything is just gross. probably why i work in the field i work in, etc. i couldn’t handle being judged on how i dressed or the amount of make up i wore.
coconot January 30, 2014, 4:29 pm
Yeah you might think you dont get judged but a lot of people do it subconciously: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cosmetics-make-women-likable-competent-trustworthy-attractive-study/story?id=14659706 Or they might be doing it consciously and you just might never know. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/10385501/Bosses-admit-they-would-discriminate-against-women-not-wearing-makeup.html
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 5:49 pm
well those kinds of thinks make me sick, because who gives a shit if someone doesn’t wear make up? or isn’t as attractive according to you? i don’t know honestly this kind of crap makes me want to move to an island where i don’t have to deal with judgemental people.
Diablo January 30, 2014, 3:31 pm
That’s cool, and if you are having fun, then YOU are having fun, so that’s good for you. It wouldn’t matter at all to me that your eyeshadow is purple, but it would matter to me that you were having fun, that WE were having fun. I wouldn’t be attracted to the decoration, but i would catch the fun.
For me, this isn’t about shaming anyone for wearing makeup or applauding anyone for going “natural.” It’s not about there being a right or wrong way to go through life. And it’s not a blanket judgement about a whole class of people. If you are wearing makeup with confidence and a strong sense of your style and who you are, great. If you are all natural and hairy-legged with the same attitude, great. If you are either of those things out of fear, anxiety, insecurity or a reaction to the beauty myth that permeates our culture, it shows. And be honest, when you see people out in public with a ton of makeup that basically obscures the reality rather than highlighting or enhancing, your reaction isn’t “Wow, she must be so confident to go out like that,” is it?
Truth is beauty, says Keats who died at 25 and didn’t have to deal with old age, and even Dennis admits we are looking for our superficial aspect to work well enough to get us to the point of sharing our true selves with another. In a sense, it comes down to whether your marketing plan is going to attract the right kind of customers for you. I speak only to my view. I have always preferred natural beauties, and no argument anyone could make would change my preference. I’m sure lots of men feel this way – I know plenty of them. I’m sure Dennis has different tastes, which is good, because if every woman conformed to my exact tastes, then they’d all have to date me to find bliss. Wait, that doesn’t sound too bad….
honeybeenicki January 30, 2014, 1:28 pm
Can someone tell me how to make my hair shiny and stuff like in a shampoo commercial? I mean, my hair is just fine… a little frizzy and unruly sometimes, but never sleek and shiny. Then again, blonde hair that is too shiny always looks greasy to me.
As far as the rest of it, Dennis is probably right. I don’t wear makeup ever really and didn’t when I met my husband, but I put a little thought into my appearance. Even now I do, but only enough that I look semi-professional at work. Though my hair is always in a pony tail.
Erica January 30, 2014, 1:43 pm
Photoshop and I think they put something on the hair that makes it shiny like shellac. Except, this is super unhealthy for hair. Also you need the right lighting.
honeybeenicki January 30, 2014, 2:52 pm
So I’ll just carry the right lighting around.
Kate January 30, 2014, 3:10 pm
Well yeah, but if your hair is basically fine, just a little unruly and frizzy, if you go someplace and get a good blowout, they can actually make it look like a shampoo commercial. They use nice products, and a lot of heat and tension to make it super smooth and reflect light from its surface. I mean, it helps if you keep your hair healthy on a regular basis so it can really shine, but it’s not too hard to get a pretty good “shampoo commercial look” with a lot of bounce and shine for $30-$40 on a special occasion. I suck at doing that myself though.
starpattern January 31, 2014, 10:55 am
Heat damages your hair too. YMMV of course, but whenever I’ve had a blow out, my hair will be frizzy for a good couple weeks afterward, and it will take a few days for my waves to fully reform. Not worth it IMO.
Kate January 31, 2014, 1:32 pm
I make sure they use a heat protector product, and I don’t do it more than a couple times a month. It doesn’t affect my hair negatively. Stylists have gotten a lot more skilled at how to do blowouts right in the past few years, I’ve noticed.
mylaray January 30, 2014, 3:05 pm
Not that my hair looks anything like a commercial, but my favorite hair product is a glossing cream by Fekkai (it’s green and has olive oil in it). It gives it a nice shine and controls the frizz in humidity and the static in winter.
HmC January 30, 2014, 1:28 pm
I feel like Dennis is just trolling at this point. He even admitted he made the title unnecessarily inflammatory. Way to contribute to the world, Dennis.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 1:32 pm
I gotta agree. Will it get a million comments, yea, but I feel like Wendy can get them on her own.
Fabelle January 30, 2014, 2:40 pm
Trolling, yeah. I mean, I hate that “trolling” is the go-to I-don’t-agree-with-you Internet insult, but this is the LEGIT, by-the-book definition of “trolling”, right? And you’re right, he does say he’s being inflammatory on purpose. Which is good for generating discussion, but I prefer more subtle pieces.
muchachaenlaventana January 30, 2014, 2:50 pm
To be fair though this is a “rant” so disclaimer completely his own opinion. Not to defend him but maybe she always goes to him bitching about why she can’t get guys and he is too nice to offer this lovely opinion in person, so took to the good old interweb to do so. It doesn’t make it right or his opinion less ridiculous but maybe?
Jen January 30, 2014, 1:28 pm
I used to be ambivalent about your posts but now I just don’t like you. Great job.
And for actual criticism: I dress nicely. All men have to do is dress nicely. I’m not going to diet and plaster makeup on myself you so can rate me highly on your pathetic points scale thankyouverymuch.
MsMisery January 30, 2014, 1:31 pm
I guess it depends on…
Is she actively trying to meet men (i.e. going to bars and clubs and not “dressing the dress”) like this? Just like work, there can be a dress code for socializing, doesn’t mean you have to look like that all the time.
Does she expect the men she wants to date to be more than a “5” (not in flannel and not disheveled)?
It’s perfectly fine to be principled, as long as she is confident in who she is. And there are plenty of men who hate makeup. But if she is super confused as to why she never gets a date, she also may need to adjust where she’s looking or who she’s looking for.
Lyra January 30, 2014, 1:36 pm
I am in full support of whatever a woman decides she wants to do, she should do. I agree that people should make an effort to not look like a slob, but if someone doesn’t want to wear make up that’s their choice.
Personally I am super low maintenance. I do wear a bit of make up, but it’s very basic. Tinted moisturizer or foundation to even out my skin tone (and to give me SPF coverage), a bit of eye shadow, MAYBE eye liner if I’m feeling ambitious. I only started wearing make up in college. High school I was very much the “I could care less what you think” girl. Any guy who dates me knows that I do get dolled up on occasion, but it’s pretty rare and he damn well better not tell me what I should do appearance wise.
lemongrass January 30, 2014, 1:38 pm
Wow. It is one thing to suggest that making an effort to appear attractive to the opposite sex will help you find dates, it is another to liken a woman’s natural appearance to “mounds of dirt” and “layers of muck.” How rude, offensive and sexist. I am so happy I am married to a man who tells me I look beautiful every day whether I’m wearing make up or not even though I’m not a ’10’.
kare January 30, 2014, 1:42 pm
I don’t think makeup or anything matters. I think it’s being comfortable in your own skin and having compatible personalities. It’s quality not quantity. For example, I like to dress up when I’m out and about, wear some makeup, etc. I have a cousin that always puts her hair up in a clip, doesn’t wear makeup, wears the same old jeans and t-shirts, etc. With makeup and her hair down, she is STUNNING. But that’s not her thing. Where do we stand on the romantic front? Well I attract a lot of men initially, but it stays very shallow. She attracted one guy that she is in a loving, committed relationship with (I mean there’s been other guys, but within the last couple of years). I doubt many guys notice makeup anyways. The only people who comment on it are women. Which is why I wear it….once someone at work says “huh you look different today…oh you’re not wearing eyeliner. I thought you might be sick” you start to think about these things. God the guys in my office didn’t notice that I dyed my hair from light blonde to dark red.
mylaray January 30, 2014, 1:42 pm
I know this isn’t completely serious, but I start to tune out when a man rates women on a scale of attractiveness. I can’t even.
Anyways, I wear makeup everyday for me. My husband says how beautiful I look without makeup and how little I wear and I have to remind him that I do in fact wear it. I think that’s more of the thing that men find attractive: minimal makeup done naturally and not overdone. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with finding a woman a little more attractive when she wears some makeup. But the problem is when a woman is only attractive when she wears makeup.
I wear a lot less makeup than I used to. And in my experience I get hit on and asked out much more when I wear very little or none. And there’s nothing wrong with not wearing makeup at all. I wouldn’t want to be a man and with a woman who felt like she had to put on a face, literally, to be with me. Just be yourself.
starpattern January 30, 2014, 4:23 pm
“I start to tune out when a man rates women on a scale of attractiveness. I can’t even.”
Same. I could not care less where someone thinks I fall on a 1-10 scale. Anyone who comes at me with that crap is getting the boot, right out of my life.
mainer January 30, 2014, 1:43 pm
I think, if I may, be able to help with Dennis’ point, as I feel a lot see this piece as the be-all-end-all of advice for all women. As many have pointed out, a lot of you fine DWers have had no issue scoring a man sans make up, designer clothing, or even the most basic patch work. And I don’t think that this piece was directed at those people, because obviously you bring something to the table that attracted the scent of a fairer gentleman. It could be you have a yoga ass.
I *think* Dennis’ point was, if you are having a hard time finding men who want to date you, and you’re not quote-unquote The Hot Girl, then something you can do is take a look at how you are presenting yourself. The very definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Ergo, if all else is failing and your all-natural milkshake is not bringing the boys to the yard, then maybe work on the old presentation and flaunt a little hello-gorgous their way. You don’t need to vagazzle, but maybe a nice pair of earrings and some new lipstick wouldn’t hurt.
Cam January 30, 2014, 2:03 pm
THIS!
Lily in NYC January 30, 2014, 2:08 pm
I think you nailed it with your second paragraph. All-natural milkshake, LOL.
lemongrass January 30, 2014, 2:09 pm
Well, I am not “the hot girl” at all, anyone on my fb friends list can attest to that, but Dennis’s point could have been made a lot clearer and easier if he didn’t shame women for how they actually look.
HmC January 30, 2014, 2:10 pm
I wish you had written this column instead of Dennis. More interesting and less purposely inflammatory.
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 1:48 pm
Oh so, back in the day (pre GGuy) I used to “dress up”, short/tight dresses, pounds of makeup, heels…you know typical “hot girl” shit. The kind of men I attracted looking like that…well the DW world would have told me I could do A LOT better.
Not to say you can’t look like that and have a great relationship, just that it can attract a certain audience. Jodie probably doesn’t want that.
csp January 30, 2014, 4:20 pm
But isn’t there a middle ground?
coconot January 30, 2014, 1:51 pm
I agree that many women are naturally beautiful, but I am firmly in camp make an effort on appearance for one simple but big reason: my current husband. We met each other in a sports group and never were really that attracted to each other, being all sweaty and gross all the time. I’m not naturally bad looking, back then I used to wear baggy t-shirts ugly tennis shoes and very little make up, PLUS I have a sever case of RBS (resting bitch face) that gets extra bad when I’m exercising. A couple of months after we first met my future husband saw me in a nice cute mini skirt/polo shirt, with hair down instead of pulled back tight, and with glossy lips/mascara and that is honestly the first time he ‘noticed me in that way’ even though we had been casual workout/sporty friends for awhile. Likewise, I found him much more attractive when he was wearing nice jeans and a button down rather than the extra long black socks and baggy shorts with a ratty tee that I was used to seeing him in. I love him to death and couldn’t imagine life without him so I am damn glad we both cleaned ourselves up, otherwise we would have probably never dated. For the record, he now finds me beautiful in ratty clothes and no makeup, but that’s because he loves me and has seen me in all states. Similarly, I can now appreciate his good looks even when they are incased in ugly ratty gym clothes with extra long black socks 🙂
Single girls, do yourself a favor and try to look your best every now and then (in whatever way makes you comfortable and confident)!
katie January 30, 2014, 1:53 pm
sooo this is a good place to talk about this, im deciding.
makeup is such a chore for me! i wear it to work, because, i dunno, im an adult woman and that comes with the territory, but then when im at home i hardly every wear it. i mean we have to be “going out” for me to put it on, and i always grumble then that im “only getting one makeup free day that week” or something in my head. and coupled with my terrible taste in clothes and shoes im pretty sure i look like a 13 year old whenever im out shopping. lol.
i mean seriously last weekend when jake and i went to the mall i didnt even wear a bra.
bethany January 30, 2014, 1:58 pm
I wear very minimal makeup to work- Light foundation and blush. That’s it. Any time I wear more than that everyone asks if I have a job interview! Eyeshadow and mascara are reserved for special occasions in my world.
kare January 30, 2014, 7:28 pm
I’m the opposite – I don’t even own foundation. But I feel naked without mascara.
Amanda January 30, 2014, 1:56 pm
Okay. Speaking as someone who has worked VERY hard to be comfortable in their own skin, this article really bothers me. I was horribly bullied in school due to the way I look (mainly, my skin because of psoriasis). I used make up to cover it up and make myself look “normal”. A few years ago, I stopped. Because I hated making myself look like someone who wasn’t me. This helped a lot in making me like myself, as well as the face in the mirror. And, now, to have someone tell me that I must look like a pile of dirt because I don’t wear make up? Thanks.
bethany January 30, 2014, 1:56 pm
A slight tangent, but I HATE mascara. I can never get it all off. It takes 2 days at least for all of it to come off. How the F do people wear that stuff every day? I only wear it for special occasions. I use non-waterproof and I have tried almost every eye make-up remover there is. Someone help me.
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 2:00 pm
i use something from clinique, i can’t remember he name. but, it’s for sensitive eyes and it’s in a purple bottle maybe? i just wipe it over my eyes and magically the mascara is gone.
bethany January 30, 2014, 2:06 pm
I have that! IT DOES NOT WORK!
There is mascara residue under my eyes for days! What mascara do you use?
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 2:10 pm
weird it works so well for me! well i usually use whatever is on sale or i have a coupon for at cvs 🙂 after i use that stuff in the purple bottle i use a face wipe to wash my face and the rest comes off then?
convexed January 30, 2014, 3:05 pm
I used to always wear waterproof mascara when I wore contacts. The best remover I found for my budget was the Neutrogena in the blue bottle with the gold cap. It didn’t sting, and it worked with a soft cotton square.
Now I usually use baby shampoo to remove my eye makeup, then finish with my regular face wash. I’ve found jojoba oil works well to remove tough mascara, too.
othy January 30, 2014, 3:25 pm
I use the neutrogena in the bottle. It does a decent job, but it’s not 100% effective. And then my eyes feel strange from the residue left behind.
bethany January 30, 2014, 3:36 pm
I have that, too, and it didn’t work for me!
CatsMeow January 30, 2014, 3:30 pm
I don’t think anyone has mentioned this yet, but baby oil works really well.
rodundo January 30, 2014, 2:15 pm
Olive oil! Or Vaseline. Gets it all off like a charm.
bethany January 30, 2014, 2:23 pm
I will try this! Thanks!
lemongrass January 30, 2014, 2:53 pm
Lotion works too. Plus it is already in the bathroom 🙂
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 3:09 pm
I use lotion on a q-tip! It works great! (Just some crappy Sauve lotion too!)
Sammatat January 31, 2014, 10:02 pm
Third on the lotion! I just put any lotion on a tissue and use that. Works every time.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:25 pm
I don’t have eyelashes for mascara, but I had the same experience when I did.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 2:39 pm
I use those wipes you get at target or the grocery store – I can’t think of the brand. But it works really well.
kerrycontrary January 30, 2014, 2:48 pm
It really depends on the mascara for me if it washes off easily or not. I just got a new one that is proving to be stubborn. The mascara in the pink tube (which I hate! It is NOT the best mascara people, stop saying that) is the worst for me. It could show up under my eyes like 5 days later.
sarita_f January 30, 2014, 2:55 pm
Google the Oil Cleansing Method. A little castor oil cut with sunflower oil WILL get that shit off right quick.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:27 pm
Try this – http://www.sephora.com/bi-facil-double-action-eye-makeup-remover-P54477?SKUID=534628&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=534628&om_mmc=ppc-gg-pla&om_mmc=ppc-GG&mkwid=tzDLMVUu&pcrid=24089522417&pdv=c&site=us_search&country_switch=us&lang=en
missliss January 30, 2014, 10:32 pm
Pond’s cold cream. It’s oily and heavy but it gets it all off for me!
findingtheearth January 30, 2014, 1:57 pm
I think confidence is sexy. Confidence can be aided with make-up. However, once that make up and exterior comes off- where is the person at? That’s when confidence comes into play.
When I was in my early 20s I wore a lot of make up. Now as a parent, I wear mascara. Sometimes, I put eyeshadow on if I have time, but not usually. I don’t have the extra money to spend on a ton of different shades.
I think Jodie needs an ego boost and possibly has other issues surrounding why she can’t get a date.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 2:02 pm
Uh. I don’t like this at all. Like. Not even a little bit. I want to be friends with Jodie or tell her to move to Alaska, where wearing makeup and fancy clothes are looked at suspiciously.
Seriously though, I bet Jodie has other problems in her life rather than just her appearance when it comes to “attracting men” which, sorry, fuck that. Even if you want a life with a male partner, your appearance is only part of the puzzle. Maybe she’s a work-a-holic, maybe she has solitary hobbies, maybe she doesn’t have a lot of outlets to meet new people. Reducing her whole life to basically “she’s frumpy” is so incredibly offensive.
And you know what? Dennis’ voice isn’t the only male voice out there—half the other articles with shitty click bait titles are “What current trends do men hate?” “Too much makeup! Crop tops! Peplums”
Fuck all of that. Dress however the fuck you want. For yourself—women aren’t man-bait.
Dear Wendy January 30, 2014, 2:08 pm
I don’t think one essay constitutes a “new tone” for DW. I published this piece not because I agree with the message entirely (I agree with some of it), but because there has been a general request for more male perspectives, and a greater variety of voices and opinions. Also, I thought this particularly piece would generate some discussion and debate and give opponents of Dennis’ message an excuse and platform to express their views.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 2:11 pm
Fair enough. Sorry, that was probably a little harsh. I was just surprised to see something with this kind of attitude here. I should have put on my critical thinking pants. No coffee yet for me (it’s still morning here).
Dear Wendy January 30, 2014, 2:21 pm
Not too harsh — just wanted to explain my reasoning.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 2:22 pm
Thanks Wendy!
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:12 pm
I think all of your pieces generate a ton of discussion and debate without you ever sounding like an asshole. However, I also know that you need a break from having to come up with pieces twice a day minimum. I hate that this kinda crap is a feature on here rather than just a comment though, but you’re right – people asked for male perspectives, so you might not always like what you ask for when you get it.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:15 pm
I hope she has a friend (if she’s real) that tells her good for her for holding out until she gets what she wants…a guy who will talk to her regardless of what she looks like.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 2:17 pm
Me too. Or a friend who invites her to do things in groups that don’t “require” makeup. Even though literally nothing in this world requires makeup. Does she like exercising? Hiking group. Fishing? Group fishing trip…..meeting a boyfriend is about MEETING someone, not standing there passively like a pretty flower for a bee to buzz up to.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:26 pm
That last line is so perfect.
rachel January 30, 2014, 2:06 pm
So, not entirely on topic, but, now that I’m almost 30, and have more of a “real” job I feel like maybe I should wear makeup to work? Thoughts? I haven’t worn makeup since I was 18 and just wore a ton of black eyeliner because I was kinda goth. But I get mistaken for a student all the time, (yes I need to step up the clothes a bit too – working on that), and I wonder if a bit of makeup done right would help.
bethany January 30, 2014, 2:09 pm
I think a small amount of makeup would be nice. I wear foundation to even out my skin tone and a little bit of blush. Also, I’ve found that adding jewelry, like a statement necklace really steps up an outfit and makes it look like I care more than I do. You can get tons of cheep jewelry at Forever 21.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 2:20 pm
Yeah start really small. Maybe get some BB cream, it’s like foundation-light and it has spf in it so yay! Then just do mascara and lip gloss or lip stain and blush. Make up is the best because it takes 5 minutes and makes a HUGE difference.
Lucy January 30, 2014, 2:25 pm
It’s more about your wardrobe and presentation than makeup. If you dress and talk like an adult (IOW, can the vocal fry), that’s how you’ll be perceived. I spent 20 yrs in capital markets and never wore makeup.
csp January 30, 2014, 2:50 pm
Yes, you should. You should dress for the job you want not the job you have. If you look put together, people think you have your act together.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:55 pm
What if I want my next job to be a pajama tester? What then bunny?
csp January 30, 2014, 4:29 pm
Then you should wear pajamas. it is that simple 🙂
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 4:40 pm
So I took your advice and just got fired. Thanks bunny!
XanderT January 30, 2014, 2:14 pm
I do my hair & makeup every single day – weekends included. The only time I don’t is if I am too sick to hold the blow dryer up. Why? Because it makes me feel good about myself. I like the way I look with makeup on. My mother had mascara and red lipstick on every day until she died. Maybe it is genetic….Oh, and Diablo – I know I’m good enough.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 2:21 pm
See, if it makes YOU feel good about yourself that’s totally awesome and 100 percent your call. I use make up and clothes to feel good about myself too–but I do it because it makes ME feel good. In this article, Jodie hasn’t complained about her looks or expressed that she’s unhappy with her appearance, in fact she has defended it. This article is basically saying “you can’t be pretty unless you conform to the standards in a shampoo commercial”
XanderT January 30, 2014, 2:30 pm
Yep, I am on the band wagon of wearing or not wearing makeup as your own choice. And I was saying I do it for myself, not someone else. There is a lot of support of the makeup free choice. How about some support of those of us that wear makeup?
lemongrass January 30, 2014, 3:18 pm
Oh I wear makeup, not every day but on the days that I feel like it and I enjoy it when I do. I just don’t think I should be compared to a mound of dirt on the days that I don’t.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 2:18 pm
Am I the only one that thinks t-shirts are SUPER uncomfortable? I can’t even wear them to work out anymore. The sleeves are an awkward length on me because I’m really short, and they end up being too tight on my boobs and then get caught on my stomach other places and I just hate them. I will take a fitted t-shirt and yoga pants over just about anything. Although there really is someone out there for everyone, because Ethan hated that I wore yoga pants all the time and Colin thinks they make my butt look good, so whatever.
As far as everything else he said, I gotta say I tend to think people look more professional with make up on. There I said it. I hate it when women roll up in court with their hair in a pony tail (not a cute one, the one where it looks like I can see pieces of last night’s dinner stuck somewhere in there) and no make up. How hard is it to throw on some mascara and lip gloss? And yeah it sucks that hot people can wear little to no make up and they look good and put together, but life isn’t fair. I have to try really hard. But I try when I’m single or in a relationship, so whatever.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 2:25 pm
I also hate t-shirts. Big boobs and…muscular….we’ll go with muscular….arms do not work for t-shirts. Plus they make me feel like I’m choking.
bethany January 30, 2014, 2:26 pm
I can’t wear standard TShirts anymore (like the ones you get when you run a 5K or something). But I freaking LOVE ones like this from the Gap.
I wanted to start wearing “grown up” t shirts and bought a few on clearance for like $3, and now i”m obsessed. They’re super comfy and I love them.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:33 pm
I am wearing that tshirt RIGHT NOW!!!!! Creepy.
Iwanna – get a Bordeaux tshirt. They sell them at Anthro, not sure where else. I have their vnecks in every color, some multiple. It will change your life.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 2:37 pm
Oh yeah I have some of those from victoria’s secret but I guess I don’t really consider them t-shirts because they’re fitted and not crew neck and are awesome. I think of like the t-shirts you get as a kid at sporting events.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:41 pm
They sell Bordeaux at VS?
And – oh. I don’t like those tshirts either.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 3:05 pm
Don’t come at me with language like Bordeaux. What the fuck is a bordeaux? You mean that fitted t-shirt with a v-neck?
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:09 pm
hahaha, its the brand I referred to you, so I thought you were saying they carried that brand, not vnecks in general.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:28 pm
I love tshirts. You are buying the wrong ones.
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 2:48 pm
I like t-shirts, but I hate how the logo/graphic (for like sports shirts) is always plastered right in the middle of my boobs. It’s like they are a billboard.
LlamaPajamas January 30, 2014, 2:20 pm
Oh boy. Are you referring to women in their natural state as a “mound of dirt” or “layer of muck”? Because I have a sparkly diamond of a personality (gag, that’s the author’s analogy, not mine) and I promise you that it’s not at all hindered by my lack of makeup or fancy, form-fitting clothes. I even wear flannel sometimes! And my fiancé loves it because he’s from Vermont! Also, he’s not a tool.
No Pantalones Today January 30, 2014, 2:21 pm
WTF.
Lucy January 30, 2014, 2:21 pm
What an utter crock of shit. I only wear makeup to weddings and funerals. I’ve never had any difficulty attracting men. Being funny and interesting are far better skills to spend your time on that perfecting the art of applying mascara.
“Make it all smooth and silky, like in those shampoo commercials.” Sure. I’ll do that as soon as you regrow your bald spot.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:29 pm
Oh snap!
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 2:24 pm
Ok, I’m going to experiment. I just went to the bathroom where I put make up on and I even outlined my lips with a liner… Taking bets to see how many coworkers ask me out by 5… Anyone? Anyone?
Anonymous January 30, 2014, 2:30 pm
I need more details before I can make an informed bet. Question: is your hair currently shampoo-commercial worthy?
LlamaPajamas January 30, 2014, 2:33 pm
I need more details before I can make an informed bet. Question: is your hair currently worthy of a shampoo commercial? What are you wearing? Oh man, I finally come out of lurker-ville only to sound like a complete creep. I’m asking that in the least creepy way possible! It’s for the bet!
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 2:37 pm
Creepy and loving are kind of the same for me so it’s cool. 🙂
My hair is worthy of a shampoo commercial for sure! In that it could be the before picture. (A little greasy at the moment so it’s pulled back into a pony tail.) I’m wearing a gray pin-striped skirt/jacket suit and a purple short-sleeved shirt that shows off my Rio tan. I’m wearing hose with a big run on account of my dog Moose jumped on me and caused the run – but I’m out of run-free hose and was running late and had to go to court this morning so I said fuck it, I”m wearing hose with a big run and that’s just how it is going to be today. And last I am wearing black heals. … That covers it. Oh and I haven’t showered today but I did change my underwear – you know, in full disclosure. I also made out with an Italian last night and this is starting to be a trend: I make out with the Italian man, I don’t shower the next day, and I smell Italian on me all day long. Gross. I mean, hot. But also gross.
LlamaPajamas January 30, 2014, 2:45 pm
I didn’t wash my hair today either! And I’m also wearing purple! But it’s a long-sleeved fleece and I didn’t make out with anyone last night so we’re not quite twinsies. But that’s beside the point. I don’t think any man can resist makeup AND HIGH HEELS. OMG you’re going to get asked out today! Dennis Hong will be so proud!
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 2:53 pm
I know, right? It’s only a matter of time. …
Miss MJ January 30, 2014, 2:47 pm
The experiment is invalid because there’s no way to tell whether it’s the make up or the sexy confidence that comes from wearing the scent of a hot Italian man (or maybe even the scent itself!) that’s going to attract the men like flies.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 2:53 pm
Update, 1:53 pm: No one has asked me out or even talked to me since I put on makeup, EXCEPT my secretary – she noticed! “Whoa, look at you, makeup” is what she said. So I think that adds some credibility to Dennis’s theory? Except I dunno hard to tell if she meant that in a nice way, and she certainly hasn’t asked me out so jury’s out.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 3:38 pm
Update 2:37 pm: Still, other than my secretary, since I put on makeup no one has talked to me. But! (And this is a big BUT.) But, after I put on makeup I did make some brilliant edits to a stock purchase agreement’s labor representations that our client the buyer is going to appreciate.
New theory: Women who want to do good work should wear makeup! (It applies to lawyers, but maybe hookers too.)
LlamaPajamas January 30, 2014, 3:48 pm
Good to know! I’m finding that medical librarians who want to do good work need to stay away from DW during the day. My research is suffering. Or maybe I can blame it on my poor, sad, makeupless face?
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 3:52 pm
Oh oh oh, LP, do you work with handsome doctors? A friend wants to know. A friend named Addie.
LlamaPajamas January 30, 2014, 3:58 pm
I used to! I was hospital-based for a while but now I work for a non-profit. There are some handsome men here but I snagged a park ranger so… A real live park ranger! Those sexy hats and khaki uniforms are way better than white coats.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 3:59 pm
Oh man now I WANT TO DATE A PARK RANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE CAN I FIND ONE?
LlamaPajamas January 30, 2014, 4:04 pm
Hmmmm – I can’t reply to your comment so I’ll reply here. Park rangers are everywhere! Well, everywhere but Delaware! I highly recommend one. I found mine online. I saw a photo of him in his uniform and said to myself “I WANT THAT ONE.” Then I asked him out, then I asked him to be my boyfriend, then I asked him to marry me. When you find a park ranger who likes you without makeup (!!!) you gotta lock that shit down.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 4:17 pm
LP, will you be my new best DW friend? I really feel like I’ve bonded with you in this chat.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 5:05 pm
* * chirp chirp chirp * *
awkward! haha
AliceInDairyland January 30, 2014, 5:09 pm
I love this story!!! Thank you for locking that shit down.
Addie Pray January 30, 2014, 5:22 pm
“LTSD, Lock That Shit Down, ladies” ~ my new favorite de-lurked lurker LlamaPajamas
LlamaPajamas January 30, 2014, 8:04 pm
AP, it’d be an honor and a privilege! I was out running errands, I didn’t mean to leave you hanging. We’ve definitely locked that DWBFF shit down.
I replied to the delurker post over the weekend as ADDlibrarian but decided I didn’t like that name (even though it’s accurate). So now I’ve delurked twice! I feel like a new woman! And I clearly feel like using more exclamation points than is necessary.
CatsMeow January 31, 2014, 1:44 am
LOVE THIS. You asked him out, asked him to be your boyfriend, AND asked him to marry you. This needs to be more common.
LlamaPajamas January 31, 2014, 7:40 am
Thanks! I wish I could say I’ve always been this confident and straightforward in my relationships but this is new to the past few years (yeah 30s!). And finding such a great guy definitely made it easy – we’ve always known exactly where we stand with each other (I say that like we’ve been together for ages but it’ll actually be one year next week – I kind of fast-tracked us). I cringe when I think about some of the relationships I was in in my 20s.
Addie Pray January 31, 2014, 11:04 am
hey now, cats and alice! LP is mine. (i’m of the school of thought that when you really love someone, you show it by being possessive. right?)
Courtney January 30, 2014, 2:24 pm
This is interesting to me! I’m a 24 year old who admittedly loves makeup and dresses and the whole shabang. I’ve been wearing makeup since I was first allowed to when I started high school and watching my mom get ready for work in the mornings growing up, doing her hair and makeup for work I think kind of definitely influenced me? I was always curious about it and wanted to try it! I don’t pile it on so to speak but my daily routine included a bit of foundation, smidge of bronzer and blush, lip gloss and mascara. And truth be told, i get more attention when I wear it. Not (I don’t think?!) because I’m not “naturally” pretty, I have nice skin that I take care of, but I exude more confidence when I wear makeup because I FEEL more confident! So to each their own, one of my old best friends never ever wears makeup and she’s a happily married military wife and didn’t have issues finding a man, so it’s an individual preference! I will say that I think it’s a little ridiculous for a guy to say “I won’t date a girl who wears makeup, so high maintenance.” When I have no problem going and running errands or doing stuff like that sans makeup and feel I fall squarely in the mid- maintenance camp haha I like to look nice when I go out or to dinner or whatever but I’m also perfectly content sitting in sweatpants sans makeup on the couch.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:30 pm
Ironically, on the brazilian thread, I said I won’t allow Lil to shave her legs. But I do let her play with makeup. I asked her why she wanted to and she said its like art. I never thought of it like that!
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 2:35 pm
Well they are called make-up artists you know.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:36 pm
I knew someone would comment with that. I should’ve known it would YOU. Sorry I don’t think Iwanna. We can’t all be like you.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 2:37 pm
Well thinking is hard, I don’t blame you for struggling with the concept 😉
kerrycontrary January 30, 2014, 2:50 pm
sidenote: don’t make her be the last kid in her class who shaves/wears a bar/wears deoderant. That was me cause my mom was insanely shy when talking about bodily changes, it was soooo embarassing for me.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:52 pm
Oh she’s not. And I try to be really good about talking about body changes. She’s just not shaving yet.
theattack January 30, 2014, 2:55 pm
Did you say in the forums that she has to articulate a reason other than fitting in before she can start shaving? I’m curious what kind of reasons you’ll accept, because I can’t think of a single reason for shaving my legs other than that.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:59 pm
I want her to come up with a reason related to personal preference, not “because Suzy’s mom lets her.”
That’s interesting though. I can’t stand the feel of hair on my legs and that ‘s the only reason I shave every day.
theattack January 30, 2014, 3:02 pm
Yeah, I guess I do it for that reason too, but before I ever shaved I wouldn’t have known any different. I don’t know. I think what you’re doing is smart. It’s just probably hard to determine the exact right time.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:07 pm
Obviously, at some point I won’t have a say in whether she’s allowed to shave, or allowed to do anything, but while I do, I think its a great lesson. I don’t think there is an exact right time other than when you can come up with a good reason to want/need it. When she asked for a bra, I asked the same thing and she said she would feel more comfortable, thinks she needs them, doesn’t like the little buds popping out, etc. No mention of Suzy getting one, or everyone wears one moooom. She got deodorant when she needed it.
I’m just trying to do everything I can to have her think for herself, and think about all the reasons she does X or wants to do X. I wish I had been forced to think about why I do things or why I want the things I want, and taught to not do things just because everyone else was. Be yourself, if people make fun of you for it, who cares. That kinda thing.
karenwalker January 30, 2014, 4:15 pm
I remember going to a pool party in 5th grade and having to wear a t-shirt over my suit because I had hairy pits and my mom wouldn’t let me shave. So embarrassing! Then in 7th grade all the other girls were shaving (something I had wanted to do for 2 years at this point) and I still wasn’t allowed to so I would sneak a razor and do it – but then nick myself horribly and be afraid I was going to die from blood loss. Because of my embarrassing and traumatic no-shaving-allowed memories, I decided that I would let my hypothetical daughters shave when she asked.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 4:21 pm
Yikes, I’m cringing a little. For the record, she doesn’t have hair anywhere but on her legs yet. I don’t plan to make this some extreme statement or anything, and she only asked once about 6 months ago and dropped it. I’m sure if it were becoming a “thing” she’d ask again. I just want her to think about why. I don’t want to torture her, I promise!
Fabelle January 30, 2014, 4:33 pm
Yeah, my mom was liberal about a lot of things, but for some reason she was all “no, don’t shave your legs” until it got to the point where I was incredibly embarrassed about it (wouldn’t wear shorts, capris, etc.) She let me shave my armpits, & my bikini line, no questions asked (we were staying with my friend’s family at a cabin by a lake, & all I did was put on my bathing suit, like, “mom…um… can I shave…”) But legs? she was all like, “once you shave your legs, YOU’LL NEVER BE ABLE TO STOP” (so now, after having not shaven for a week +, I’ll be like, “mom, LOOK muahaha”)
But yeah, don’t make her wait so long that she’s embarrassed. It’s a stupid cultural norm, but adolescent embarrassment SUCKS intensely.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 4:42 pm
That’s weird you could shave your armpits and bikini line, but not your legs. I hear you guys thought, and remember how it felt to be embarrassed, so I won’t let it go that far. She’s still pretty young and I would guess MAYBE 10% of the girls in her class (or age, even) shave their legs.
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 3:00 pm
I can’t typically think of a compelling reason to shave my legs (other than it’s what women are “supposed” to do) so I don’t most of the time. Honestly I think it’s been 5 weeks since I last did.
rachel January 30, 2014, 3:00 pm
Yeah, I definitely started shaving because I realized other girls did it. Which makes me wonder – why did the first girls in my grade start shaving?
rachel January 30, 2014, 3:02 pm
I have a memory of all of a sudden being VERY aware of the hair in my armpits in the 6th grade.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:03 pm
Older sisters?
rachel January 30, 2014, 3:04 pm
Yeah, probably. I don’t remember when my sister started shaving, but I bet it was soon after I did.
bethany January 30, 2014, 3:39 pm
When I was in 4th grade I shaved my legs without telling my mom, I cut myself and got a weird scar that my mom later thought was a tumor. She made me go to the Dr and everything. It came out that I got it from shaving my legs, and I got in trouble. When I asked if I could shave my legs again she made me write a 1page paper detailing why I wanted to shave and why I should be allowed to!
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:53 pm
I want to see that paper!!! haha. So did she then let you?
Moneypenny January 30, 2014, 2:31 pm
All I can say is, nobody’s hair looks like the shampoo commercial. Except perhaps people who are professional hair models (if that is such a thing). But that’s their job. Heck, I can’t even get my hair to look as nice as it does when I get it cut!
No Pantalones Today January 30, 2014, 2:37 pm
Part of me feels like Dennis is effing with us. There’s just no way you can write something like this (THAT RATES A WOMAN ON A SCALE OF 1-10!!!!!!!!!!) without knowing that it’s going to cause as shitstorm in the comments.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 2:43 pm
He will get hired (not by Wendy, obv) to write more articles if he can say his articles have a ton of pageviews so that’s why its written like this. One could say its selling out.
No Pantalones Today January 30, 2014, 3:10 pm
I agree 100%. I feel like he’s someone we’ll see on sites like xojane.com or something. Click bait.
PumpkinLatte January 30, 2014, 2:41 pm
Can we stop with this, please: “Guys are superficial. […] Physical appearance will always be the first thing that attracts us to a woman.” Men (and women!) are not monolithic. Not all guys are “superficial” or find the same traits attractive.
CatsMeow January 30, 2014, 3:42 pm
THANK YOU. I think that’s actually what bothered me most about this – that he stated that as fact.
Miss MJ January 30, 2014, 2:43 pm
In Dennis’ defense, it appears that Jodie is actively looking to attract and meet men and not succeeding, so he’s not just announcing a blanket “all women are ugly mounds of dirt unless they wear makeup.” He’s talking about a specific situation: a woman who wants to meet men, but isn’t getting noticed as she’d like and offering some advice to other women who are in that same boat. For whatever that’s worth.
I’m guessing that a lot of this depends on the type of men Jodie wants to attract and where she’s going and what she’s doing to attract them. If she’s wearing jeans and t-shirts and no makeup on a horse farm or work out clothes on a sports team or the like, and being overlooked by the men she wants to attract, then her appearance (or lack thereof) likely isn’t the problem.
On the other hand, if she’s going to parties, bars and clubs where everyone else is dressed to the nines and looking to meet people and still wearing the jeans and t-shirt and no make up and is generally disheveled, then, yeah, she’s going to be ignored in favor of the women who look like they want to be there. Ditto if she’s looking online and her photo is of her in no make up, sweats and last night’s hair. Dress appropriately for the occasion, you know. And if her problem is that she’s around a lot of guys she would like to date, but they don’t seem to notice her “that way,” then some lip gloss, a nice haircut and some clothes that fit might just be what makes them sit up and stop thinking of her as “Just Jodie.” Finally, if she’s only looking to date the most attractive men, well, I mean, it may not be fair, but she’s got to step her game some because all the other women who want to date the most attractive men are either natural beauties or are working makeup, hair and clothing to their best advantage. So, maybe she should tailor her style to what she’s after.
theattack January 30, 2014, 2:48 pm
How do people even learn how to wear makeup? It’s not just as simple as starting to wear makeup. It’s a big mysterious world, and if you get part of it wrong, you can look like a prostitute.
I’m so bad at makeup that I saved the eyeshadow for Halloween, and it turned out it was too scary looking for Halloween even. haha
Fabelle January 30, 2014, 3:01 pm
Yeah, I like wearing makeup (even though I rolled my mascara’d eyes so hard reading this post haha) but it takes some skill. If Jodie just immediately took Dennis’s advice, I bet she would NOT look better…
convexed January 30, 2014, 3:09 pm
I love the blog ‘Maskcara’. It has great (uplifting and informative) tutorials for beginner’s makeup.
theattack January 30, 2014, 3:18 pm
Cool, thanks! I’ll look into it. Getting my makeup professionally done for my wedding last year made me want to start wearing makeup, but it seems impossible to start from scratch. I’m going to head over there right now.
Ella_ January 30, 2014, 3:23 pm
YouTube videos are also great for this! I really like Lisa Eldridge and the sisters who do PixiWoo. They are all professional makeup artists and have all sorts of tutorials, starting from basics about how to choose your shades and products to how to apply concealer, foundation, etc. plus full face tutorials for all kinda of looks. I have recently gotten hooked on YouTube makeup videos!
theattack January 30, 2014, 3:29 pm
Omg she even explained what the “apple of your cheek” means. That’s always driven me mad because everyone always says that on tutorials, but I have no idea what that means! There might be hope after all!
mylaray January 30, 2014, 3:17 pm
It is hard. I learned when I was a stripper and I got to take makeup classes. Haha. Eyeshadow was one of the hardest things for me. I still suck at it. I probably looked ridiculous when I was starting to wear makeup though and had no technique or method to applying.
lemongrass January 30, 2014, 3:21 pm
My mom bought me this book when I was 13 and wanted to wear make up. It was great and I still have it so that I can pass it down to my daughter because it focuses on what make up is supposed to do: enhance not change.
theattack January 30, 2014, 3:36 pm
Cool, thanks! Does it show you how to do the stuff?
lemongrass January 30, 2014, 5:26 pm
I think so. I can’t remember lol
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 3:55 pm
Most of the people who work at high end beauty counters have training, you can ask them to teach you. My BFF worked at Nordstrom and she is a trained make-up artist (and is the person I learned everything from). It’s pretty quick once you get the hang of it. (Even though I hardly ever wear makeup anymore!)
Sami January 30, 2014, 2:49 pm
Oh, yes, comparing a woman to rocks is definitely the best way to communicate that you understand where she’s coming from.
artsygirl January 30, 2014, 3:19 pm
Someone might revoke my feminist bitch card – but I have to agree with Dennis on this (even though I agree that his title is inflammatory). Basically I believe people should take a certain amount of pride in their appearance (stay in shape, wear clean/fitting/socially acceptable cloths, have good hygiene etc). I wear makeup, go to the gym, and dress well – and I expect my husband to put forth the same level of work I do (though if he starts raiding my makeup bag I will be annoyed).
The problem with people like Jodi is that they seem to think that they should get what they want (in this case a relationship) without putting forth effort (looking nice) and then when it doesn’t magically manifest itself – they can seethe with righteous indignation. She can stay firmly up on her high horse while labeling the men and women around her as superficial.
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 3:23 pm
i think it’s fine to want those things in a partner, but not everyone does.
i don’t think jodie wearing make up and wearing a certain type of clothes is going to fix her problem over night. more than likely there is something else going on that dennis isn’t privy to. the answer to i can’t seem to find a date, isn’t wear make up and nice clothes, you’ll immediately find someone to date!
maybe she thinks she’s trying to find a date, but is actually putting no effort in to looking. maybe she has unrealistic expectations of who she is going to date, etc.
GatorGirl January 30, 2014, 3:31 pm
Did it say she wasn’t in shape or clean? And flannels aren’t socially acceptable? People who don’t “look nice” don’t deserve a relationship? Um, bullshit.
artsygirl January 31, 2014, 9:57 am
I am speaking more in generalities instead of Jodi specifically since I do not know her and only have a very vague description from the essay. That being said – it is not that I don’t think attractive people deserve relationships – but I think that you get back what you put out. One good example is Sarah Jessica Parker – she has really angular facial features and a very prominent nose. She is not what I would consider traditionally attractive, but she is smart. She plays up her best features and dresses well in a way that makes her a more attractive and put together.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 3:36 pm
It makes me so sad anyone would advise someone to change something about themselves that they don’t want to change just to get a date. I also don’t think her goal is to find just any guy either, but a guy that actually likes her for who she is which is commendable.
Almost everyone showers, attempts to stay healthy (in shape) and wears clothes. No one disagrees with that advice. Its all the other advice.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 4:02 pm
Also. Dennis just rated her a five, cited flannels and “messy hair” as why she’s unattractive. But he thinks shampoo commercial hair is attractive. I mean, I’m clearly Team Jodie on this one, but—what if Jodie has curly hair and Dennis doesn’t think that’s attractive? Maybe she wears men’s cut flannels, but slim fitting jeans or baggy jeans and slim fitting flannels. Maybe Dennis just doesn’t like flannels–all this article says to me is “I DON’T THINK THIS WOMAN IS HOT ENOUGH FOR MY STANDARDS, SO OBVIOUSLY HER LOOKS ARE THE ONLY THING KEEPING HER FROM HAPPINESS”
Which is bullshit through and through.
coconot January 30, 2014, 4:20 pm
Okay i agree that he went overboard on rating her out of 10 and his reasons were stupid. However, I’m going to have to go ahead and completely disagree with LBH (sry lbh usually agree with you): not almost everyone showers and stays in shape. For darn sure not in my office at least. And yes, while they all wear clothes (most of the time…) some of what passes for clothes is ridiculous. And not laundered. And yes, it makes me judge them, and want to hang out with them less. My brother purposely dresses like a homeless person complete with dreads, a duck dynasty qualifying beard, and infrequent showering. While I still love him, I know there are a million people who would not even want to LOOK at him on the street let alone talk to him.
IMHO making yourself likeable to other people is a perfectly good reason to change your habits/appearance as long as you don’t go overboard with unhealthy things (like too much tanning, surgery, etc. just for others) or waste more time and money than it’s worth. I’m not saying change your complete image all the time, but realize that if you don’t hold yourself to society’s standards you are going to be judged/liked less because of it. It might suck and be unfair, and be something we should all try to change, but anyone who goes against the grain has to realize the potential consequences, like in Jodie’s case finding it harder to get a date.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 4:25 pm
Aw coconut. That was the nicest disagreement ever.
Just ftr, I said TRIES to stay in shape. I can’t believe how many people you work with that don’t shower, etc. Yikes. If Jodie isn’t showering and is wearing filthy clothes, then I would tell her nicely to try that 🙂 So I agree with you.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 4:57 pm
See I feel like the default these days is for people to purposefully not care about what they look like and to act really self-righteous about it – like I DARE you to judge me for something as superficial as my clothes, hair and make-up, but I mean yea – that’s the first thing people notice about each other. I don’t know if you’ve ever had this happen to you – but I’ve corresponded to many attorneys through email and phone calls and then I meet them in person and I’m like wow good thing I didn’t meet you for the first time in person or I’d think you were a mess. Although vice versa happens sometimes too, someone is a mess through communication and then you meet them and they really have their shit together (I’m thinking of older attorney’s here).
Anyway you’re my favorite person on dw to fight with. Just thought you should know.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 5:09 pm
I can agree with this idea, and yes, I’ve met people and judged them on looking like they don’t give 1 fuck. I also agree with whoever posted at the bottom about looking pulled together, and all that. I’m not so naive to think looks don’t matter. If my girlfriend smelled bad and wore paper bags and asked me for advice about changing things up to meet a guy, I’d tell her that she should try showering and wearing something better than a paper bag if she wanted to. This Jodie person was very clear that she wants to remain exactly the way she is (and I assumed, maybe wrongly, that she showers and wears clothes, etc., but just doesn’t get all dolled up) and still her friend told her she has to change quite a bit even if she doesn’t want to if she ever wants to get a date.
You’ll always be my favorite too.
iwannatalktosampson January 30, 2014, 4:58 pm
Fuck I specifically commented because I wanted to talk about the in-shape thing, but then I got side-tracked. I work out pretty regularly (because I ate a donut for lunch today, as I do far too often) and I feel like I’m the outlier. It seems like no one works out anymore. Granted I’m lucky because I do it because it makes me feel good, and preventing me from ballooning is just an added benefit, but still.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 6:11 pm
iwanna, you should meet my FB friends. They are all cross-fitting, tough muddering-ultra marathon runners. And sometimes, I do yoga videos in my living room. womp. womp.
but in the summer I hike. It counts!
convexed January 30, 2014, 3:25 pm
Life may be unfair, but if articles like this stopped reinforcing the status quo, life might be a little nicer.
Wearing makeup makes me feel like I at least look like I have my shit together, and I need the boost. I have old acne marks that I consider my personal business—my coworkers don’t need to see my teenage years still written on my face. I see makeup as a way for me to have a little bit of control over how I’m perceived.
My boyfriend thinks I do my makeup nicely, and he doesn’t mind that I wear it. If he were putting pressure on me to wear more, or wear less, to fit some ideology of how women should look and what that says about their ‘insecurities’, he would face hell from me.
The idea that makeup is a mask for insecurities is so annoying. Yes, there is sometimes truth to it, for me, at least. But don’t put me in that double-bind where the only acceptable solution is to not have insecurities in the first place. Some days, I feel like I ‘need’ makeup, and some days, it’s mostly for fun, and to distinguish going out from staying in. I feel a little more special when I take the time to get fancy.
So many men think they like women that don’t wear makeup, when what they really like is women who wear undetectable makeup. Those same men aren’t saying they love to see acne scars, broken capillaries, and under-eye circles. They live in magical-thinking land, and they can shove it.
This world is hard on people. Feeling beautiful can be hard, feeling good enough can be hard, feeling desirable can be hard. All you can do is find your tools and use them. If what works for you is doing less, and that helps you feel more true to yourself, and that gets you there, then that is wonderful. And if lip gloss or blowouts are what you need to feel that way, I’m just glad those things exist.
Note to Dennis: I can promise you that your rating scale is not doing you any favors. If you think it is now, people are lying to you. Don’t just stop saying it out loud, stop thinking it. It’s the measurement system that does nothing but spread bad feelings, and the only one where every time you use it, you drop about 3 points lower on it yourself. If you’re going to go around appraising women like it’s your job, at least use words instead of numbers. And the words you use to describe women should not borrow vocabulary from either the Hall of Minerals and Gemstones or the Dirt Studies Lab. Just a tip.
Kate B. January 30, 2014, 3:38 pm
I’m not sure how serious Dennis is, but in my experience there’s a lot of truth to this. I wear minimal makeup (lip color and mascara on occasion) and I find that when I go out with my more-made-up friends, they get the attention, not me. I dress well, but I’m basically a jeans and t-shirts kind of girl. I get more attention when I wear skirts and stockings. I feel as Jodie does, but then I spend a lot of nights on my own, too. Depressing.
Astronomer January 30, 2014, 3:41 pm
Man, this is some pageview crap. I wasn’t going to bite, but I can’t stop myself.
Not only is it ignorant to expect that most people can and should get their hair to look like a shampoo commercial, it’s also totally racist.
Think about it. When was the last time you saw a person of color in a shampoo commercial, swinging around her long, shiny, glossy, freshly shampooed, straight hair? This shampoo commercial aesthetic messes with way too many women’s heads. Imagine that you’ve got frizzy, black, short hair and you go to your favorite lady-blog where you usually feel supported by a community of women who think and debate intelligently about lady-issues. Then you see some crap written by a dude who is telling you that you need to look and dress a certain way to get a man, and that way is not the way you are capable of looking ever, because you are a person of color with hair just like your mom’s and your grandma’s. Absolute crap. Wendy, please don’t publish any more of this divisive nonsense.
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 4:05 pm
PREACH. Also, I think the shampoo commercial thing got me the most. It’s so incredibly racist in that mean, insidious kind of way that people don’t realize is racist, which is the worst kind or racism. Naturally curly hair is so undervalued in society. I know she’s white, and animated, but I got legitimately teary-eyed when the art first came out for Disney Pixar’s Brave, because it was really moving to see Merida’s gloriously curly hair as something celebrated and beautiful.
Also, I might just be taking all this way too personally because I have GIANT curly hair, wear some, but not much, makeup and my basic “uniform” for life is over sized flannels, leggings and boots.
coconot January 30, 2014, 4:25 pm
BTW do you know the story of brave’s writer? It is so inspiring and sad at the same time. I saw her speak. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/08/14/how-can-women-gain-influence-in-hollywood/stand-up-for-yourself-and-mentor-others
coconot January 30, 2014, 4:25 pm
BTW do you know the story of brave’s writer? It is so inspiring and sad at the same time. I saw her speak. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/08/14/how-can-women-gain-influence-in-hollywood/stand-up-for-yourself-and-mentor-others
Astronomer January 30, 2014, 4:57 pm
Merida’s hair was practically its own character! I loved the way her hair “moved,” too. It looked like the curls kind of clumped together and bounced, instead of, I don’t know, floating all silkily in the breeze. Yeah, her giant, messy curls were so great.
theattack January 30, 2014, 4:06 pm
Really, really good point, Astronomer.
muse January 30, 2014, 4:10 pm
Queen Beyyy!!!!!
But no, you are right, Even Beyonce gets her hair ads because her hair is ‘good hair’ aka white person hair. Same for Kerry Washington.
Astronomer January 30, 2014, 4:51 pm
Oh, I forgot about Beyonce! Isn’t she also in a bunch of makeup commercials? But yeah, I totally agree about the “good hair” thing. Which of course is totally awesome for her, but maybe not a realistic or healthy goal for a lot of other people.
Elisse January 30, 2014, 3:44 pm
So…I have mixed feelings on this.
For the record, I’m in my early 30’s and I’ve been wearing makeup for 15 years. I wear makeup to work every day (eyeshadow, eyeliner, mascara, powder, blush, lipgloss) and style my (very curly) hair – even if it’s just throwing it up in an updo with $2 barrettes from Rite Aid because washing it every day dries it out. (By the way, the idea that we can all just make our hair look like it does in commercials is laughable at best and woefully ignorant at worst. Only with the aid of a stylist will it look that good. I have spent 20 years learning how to manage my hair and I can make it look really nice, but I can’t make it look like THAT without a blowout by someone WHO IS NOT ME.)
From the experiences I’ve had, personally and through close female friends, makeup and putting a little bit of effort into one’s appearance makes me/us feel better and more professional. I had some serious depression issues in the latter half of my 20’s because I was underemployed and in jobs I HATED, and during those times I didn’t wear makeup at all and wore the same outfits over and over, and it was definitely because I just didn’t care…not in a good way.
I’m 4’10”, about 20 lbs too round, and not a conventional “beauty” by any means. I’m easy to look over. I guess I’m very much a “manic pixie girl” if you want to define it. I love makeup, love dressing up, and love trying new things…but I have witnessed in person girls who are way less “dressed” or made up – but way more confident than I am – get drooled over by men while I am ignored.
I’ve also witnessed a good friend of mine who is always extremely well put together and is very tall and thin be looked over (past?) while *I* was given male attention.
Also, my boyfriend doesn’t care if I have makeup on or not. Now, I look about 16 if I don’t have it on (short, remember?) so I don’t know if he’d have felt that same way on our first date, but it is what it is.
So – it comes down to attitude, charisma, and, ultimately self-confidence. I’m lacking in that area but I’m working on it. I don’t know this “Jodie” and would never presume to make a judgment call on her, and to be honest I’m envious of many of you who don’t wear makeup and feel super confident without it. I just don’t.
I think this kind of stuff should be an individual choice – just like I loooove men in fedoras and my boyfriend hates them. Doesn’t mean I am going to dump him because he won’t wear one!
Tinywormhole January 30, 2014, 4:28 pm
My now-husband knew me before we started dating. He told me that he first became aware he was attracted to me one morning when we both woke up in our friend’s livingroom after a night out. I was at my least attractive – hungover, cranky and disheveled, and it set something off inside him.
csp January 30, 2014, 4:40 pm
OK, so I am late to this party but I have to agree with Dennis. You are in control of your life. If you want to be thin – then eat less than you burn. If you want to be respected at work, dress like it. If you want to date, dress for the occasion. It doesn’t have to be epic. over the weekends, my normal uniform is jeans and a cute tshirt. But I will wear cute flats, a scarf or statement necklace and maybe a cardigan over it. Looking pulled together projects having your life in order and if you look a mess, people think you are a mess. This applies to men and women. I just had a strong conversation with my husband about cargo shorts. I am like, are you a guy or are you a man? Once I started pointing out men in cargo shorts to him, he changed his tune. I was like, would you trust that guy to be a department manager? Would you believe he has his life together? (this was out at an event, not mowing the lawn). I think you should dress for the person you want to be. For every woman like Dennis’s friend, there is a man like Booger from Revenge of the Nerds.
Kate January 30, 2014, 4:44 pm
YES! I can’t “like” this because the functionality is screwed up, but I agree 1,000%. You need to look the part for whatever it is you want to achieve.
And my mom always said, “if you want to be a size 2, eat a size 2 portion!”
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 4:45 pm
I don’t disagree with this idea generally, its just not what Dennis was saying.
Kate January 30, 2014, 4:49 pm
Well it kind of is. I think he was saying if you’re not getting the results you want in dating, it could be because you aren’t achieving a look that will get you the attention you want. Similar to, at work, if you’re not achieving a look that will get you the position you want. That’s how I took it. He’s not talking to all the women on here who choose not to wear makeup and found the love of their life.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 4:52 pm
What age would you guys allow your daughter to:
1. wear makeup
2. shave legs
Kate January 30, 2014, 4:56 pm
Hmm, I did those things around 12, which my mom was fine with. I think I’d be fine with 11 or 12 as well. If she had really dark hair and was embarrassed about it and other girls were shaving, I’d let her do it sooner. I don’t think I’d have rules about how *much* makeup to wear either, I think I’d let her figure it out. My mom never told me how much to wear. I had magazines like Teen and YM and 17, and I could see what other girls were doing and what worked and what didn’t.
Kate January 30, 2014, 5:03 pm
Actually, you know what? I can’t imagine that I’d have a problem with my hypothetical daughter wearing makeup at any age if she wanted to. Like if she was 7 and wanted to wear pink lip gloss, ok, fine. I’m not going to be happy with her stealing mine, and I’m not going to go out and buy her Dior Addict gloss, but I don’t think I’d care if she wanted to play around with some stuff.
kerrycontrary January 30, 2014, 5:05 pm
shaving: 6th grade. This is when most girls in my school started doing it at least. So that’s 11 turning 12?
makeup: My mom made me wait until I was 13 to wear ANY makeup (includes lipgloss so no lipsmackers for me), and this was a little late. I would say they could experiment with makeup like lipgloss or eyeshadow around 11-12, and then take them to a makeup counter to buy them a full set of makeup at 12 or 13. If they had acne sooner I would take them to a derm and let them use foundation/concealer
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 5:18 pm
Thanks to both of you. Sounds like I’m on the right track then.
AliceInDairyland January 30, 2014, 5:24 pm
LBH… my mom never said anything. Ever. Result?
I had never put any sort of make up on until college (I think someone else put mascara on me for prom)
I think I didn’t start shaving my legs until like I was driving or had a boyfriend (16), but I am blonde so honestly no one could tell. Same thing with the armpits and everything else…
But I was/am a very much “in my head” person so I didn’t really look at what other people were doing/what I looked at because I’m so busy just thinking stuff up in my head… if that makes sense? It didn’t register.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 5:31 pm
She already plays around with makeup which I don’t care about. She enjoys it, and hasn’t worn it out of the house except lip gloss. So I think she is already into it. There’s one girl in her class who wears an absurd amount of makeup, but she seems to be the only one.
kare January 30, 2014, 8:05 pm
My mom let me start shaving my legs with an electric razor in either 5th or 6th grade. I complained that my leg hair was long and itchy. I think I was trusted with a real razor in junior high. I could play with makeup starting at 3 or 4, but I didn’t actually own or wear any until about 6th grade. Pretty much once I started my period.
Oh and thongs – 8th grade. That one was a fight. My mom still bitches about thongs.
theattack January 30, 2014, 9:23 pm
Hopefully around 11 or 12 for both, but I guess I generally have a problem with mothers trying to own their daughters bodies too much. Obviously you have to draw a line somewhere, but I guess I think of this harmless stuff as more of a girl’s decision than her mother’s. I think it’s more of the mom’s job to guide her to make the best decisions about her body like how you’re wanting her to articulate reasons for things, than it is to make rules about what she can and can’t do with her own body.
I hope that doesn’t sound accusatory because I think you’re doing the right thing. I just think it’s an important distinction to make, because if we want young girls to learn ownership of their bodies, we have to actually let them own their bodies. We want to teach them to listen to their inner voice, like you said, instead of taking orders from everyone else.
lets_be_honest January 30, 2014, 9:43 pm
I love this and it iS a very important distinction. Thanks ta. That’s something I’ll have to remind myself as she continues to grow up-guide, don’t rule.
starpattern January 30, 2014, 4:55 pm
Eh, whatever. I do not have the time of day for anyone that would rate me on a 1-10 scale by my looks. I like to look neat and put together, but honestly I like the look of minimal or no makeup. I also never blow dry or brush my hair (if you have any texture at all and want to make your life easier – Curly Girl Guide!)
Seriously, what’s it gaining me? I’m an engineer, and I ride a motorcycle. My boyfriend tells me I’m beautiful more often when I’m elbow-deep in engine grease helping him work on something or climbing off my bike with 6 hour helmet head than he does when I’ve primped up for dinner on Saturday night. I do what makes me feel best at any given time – always have. And most of the time, that’s simple clothes and lip balm.
Honestly, I kind of feel sorry for Jodie that she’s stuck with friends like Dennis Hong.
rieux January 30, 2014, 8:38 pm
Clearly you’ve missed the point of the essay, @starpattern… you’re supposed to feel bad for Dennis Hong that he has to look at Jodie. If she had any consideration for her male friends’ male privilege, she would look more attractive to them so that they would not have to suffer the pain and indignation caused by looking at the layer of dirt on her face. Excuse me, I mean the layer of dirt that IS her face.
starpattern January 31, 2014, 11:51 am
LOL, rieux, you’re right – poor Dennis, I do not how he’s endured it so long!
Wendy (not Wendy) January 30, 2014, 5:47 pm
Ugh, this is SO not what I come to Dear Wendy for… this is what I find in every crappy self-help book and “advice from him” column ever. So it IS my fault that I’m single. If only I had a man around to tell me whether I’m a five but not attracting the right caliber of guys or whatever. At least it leaves me with the strong feeling that I’m glad I don’t attract guys like Dennis Hong. Does he also whine that girls have it so easy–if they just put in a little effort on their appearance they attract guys merely by existing, while guys just get rejected all day long?
By the way, I look stupid in makeup. I’ve tried different kinds, different looks, done it myself had friends do it had it done professionally. I’ve never gotten compliments on it (I don’t mean that people don’t notice–I mean my friends and stylists are, like, “well… some people just don’t need makeup”). I get my eyebrows groomed and that’s that. And hear a lot that I am pretty or beautiful. I see the difference in men’s eyes when I wear just the right clothes, too. Doesn’t mean they ask me out. I wish Dennis Hong would tell me what it is I’m doing wrong after all.
Astronomer January 30, 2014, 7:09 pm
Your first paragraph–yes. Absolutely. That’s EXACTLY how I feel about this crap. Like, “What is this doing on my website?”
AliceInDairyland January 30, 2014, 5:51 pm
Okay, so preface this by saying that I most likely have tall, skinny, blonde privilege (but I have curly hair, not pantene pro V hair) and I feel like… I spend no time thinking about how I look? I mean there are just so many other things for me to think about besides what my face looks like. I stare into a mirror when I brush my teeth twice a day and otherwise it’s just not on my mind. So maybe that’s why this leaves me feeling puzzled more than anything. Like, if I have a pimple and I see it in the morning I’m like “Ugh pimple!” and then I wander away from the mirror and I’m like, “Ooh, bagel!” 2 seconds later and I don’t think about the pimple again.
I pretty much only wear make up now when I’m socially-experimenting (that’s what I call it when I go out in public… because I feel like an anthropologist). And then when I do I wear a whooole bunch but that actually turns out to be like 1/5th what all the other girls are wearing. And honestly, men talk to me like I’m an idiot. I’ve also gone out wearing the same amount/level of clothing and like no make up, and men still talk to me but differently. Like, a different class of men approach me? And maybe the hotspot of men approaching me would be like mid-level make up? But I don’t know because I don’t really wear it?
What annoys me the most about it is that guys in general there is a baseline “Rock what the good lord gave you.” Most of the time that entails wearing something nice, moderately form fitting, and then having a hair cut and facial trimming. That takes x amount of time. Women I feel like it’s the “rock what the good lord gave you if he wanted you to spend double the amount of time and four times the amount of money as men do.” It just seems to me that the effort involved between the two genders is different and that’s where I get kind of cranky.
Anyways, ramble, ramble, ramble… I’ve never had a job where wearing make up would have made me look more professional. If anything, wearing make up to milk cows or walk dogs would have made me look UNPROFESSIONAL. Am I supposed to wear make up when I am a veterinarian????!?!!?!?!?
jlyfsh January 30, 2014, 5:57 pm
hmm the only time i think my vet wears make up is when she’s not seeing patients? but over all i would say she’s pretty low key. no jewelry or anything because i’m sure dogs could get caught on necklaces, long earrings, etc. but, i did see her once when I think she was in doing paperwork and she was dressed different and maybe had make up on? i mainly remember she had an awesome necklace that she said she couldn’t wear most of the time. who wants to wear make up when you’re poking around dog and cat butts?
AliceInDairyland January 30, 2014, 6:06 pm
…But the dog butts won’t want to date me!!!
Northern Mermaid January 30, 2014, 6:15 pm
Alice and jlyfsh win.
jlyfsh January 31, 2014, 10:10 am
haha i missed this! i think the dog and cat butts will still want you. the chemicals in make up would probably irritate them anyway 😉
Astronomer January 30, 2014, 7:13 pm
When you say “facial trimming,” it makes me think of plucking my chin hairs, haha.
But yeah, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a vet wearing obvious makeup while working. Though I admit that I might be oblivious to what “minimal” makeup looks like.
Fabelle January 30, 2014, 8:27 pm
Your second-to-last paragraph is spot on, I like how you said that. Like, I had this one dude friend who– in reference to makeup– always say this one-liner as a stand-alone statement: “Women are naturally ugly.” And then I guess you’re supposed to interpret… is that his real opinion? Is he saying that to highlight the ridiculousness of beauty standards, by trying on how asshatty that sounds? (If you pressed him, he’d just get more enigmatic about it; I couldn’t tell if he was being skewedly intelligent half the time, or just a jackass, & I probably gave him too much credit BUT ANYWAY) sometimes I felt like, “are we naturally not hot?” I feel pretty without makeup, I know I AM pretty without makeup, but I also don’t feel “done” unless I have at least some on. I’m rambling now byee
Lyra January 30, 2014, 9:20 pm
If you choose to wear make up as a vet, I think minimal is best — tinted moisturizer, maybe a subtle eye shadow. Though I disagree with the “everyone should wear make up” thing, I think just a subtle use of make up can make anyone look more professional. I think subconsciously people generally would consider someone with a more put together look as someone they can trust.
Lyra January 30, 2014, 9:20 pm
If you choose to wear make up as a vet, I think minimal is best — tinted moisturizer, maybe a subtle eye shadow. Though I disagree with the “everyone should wear make up” thing, I think just a subtle use of make up can make anyone look more professional. I think subconsciously people generally would consider someone with a more put together look as someone they can trust.
Annette January 30, 2014, 7:00 pm
Really gross cis-male rhetoric. Why don’t we talk about body positivity?
Dennis Hong instead of worrying about your “frumpy female friend” you should be more concerned with your lackluster writing career.
JoanJ January 30, 2014, 8:13 pm
My very favorite thing about patriarchy is how much it requires that a woman’s value be based primarily on her appearance (esp how she appears to men). Or, wait, is it that, or is it rape culture? Or, wait, same difference.
Deejay January 30, 2014, 8:59 pm
Why is this a controversial post?
It’s all very, very simple. With a few exceptions, most people are dating to find a romantic and sexual partner. Sexual desirability is an essential and foreseeable part of your “product offering.” Yes, you need other good qualities to actually be relationship material, but you have to be sexually attractive in most cases to get to the bargaining table to start with. Therefore, you should make sure you maximise your sexual desirability, within what’s reasonable and achievable. I would never choose a husband based solely or even primarily on his sexiness, but if I didn’t find him sexy he wouldn’t make the short list to start with.
lemongrass January 30, 2014, 9:03 pm
What makes me really sad is that Dennis is going to see all these comments and instead of looking inward and thinking “gee, maybe these women and their opinions on not wanting to be objectified for my own sexual desires are right, I’ll stop treating them like meat” he will think “300+ comments! Awesome.”
Lindsay January 30, 2014, 9:50 pm
I have less of a problem with this than I would have though. However, my issue is this idea that men are expected to (and do) put forth as much effort on their appearance as women should. What he’s describing for himself is simply hygiene, yet he acts like it’s comparable. What he’s describing for women is simply hygiene, plus some.
Essentially, it’s this idea that men have the power to just sit around and demand that women dress themselves up like models in order to be loved, when they apparently should be praised for taking a shower.
Cassie B January 30, 2014, 10:51 pm
Note to self: Cut bangs, feather them, apply ice blue eyeshadow, and line lips with black eyeliner. Wait for husband to come home and surprise him with my new-found hotness.
Dennis Hong (@DennisHHong) January 31, 2014, 1:07 am
Yeah, sure, I’ll admit to some level of trolling on this piece, but I do stand by my message:
If you’re not attracting whom you want to attract, then putting some effort into your physical appearance is one place to start. Looks play a huge role in attraction. It’s a universal truth, and there’s nothing racist, sexist, or objectifying about that.
CatsMeow January 31, 2014, 1:56 am
…………and if that is all you had said, hardly anyone would care. And if that’s ALL you wanted to say, then… really? What’s the point? That same article has been written 4 million times. It’s hardly “rant”-worthy.
Dennis Hong (@DennisHHong) January 31, 2014, 2:33 am
Exactly.
Nookie January 31, 2014, 10:21 am
There are a lot of comments here, I haven’t read them all.
But from my personal stance, I wear subtle make up and somewhat flattering clothes everyday because I like to – but then I also wear jeans everyday so perhaps I am a slob as well.
But the one thing I’ve found that has always gotten male attention is my own happiness. If I’m out and having a great time with my friends, I’m instantly more approachable. Looking nice is fantastic but having confidence and self-happiness draws people to you faster than anything.
Sabrina February 8, 2014, 8:15 pm
Ignore the haters, Dennis. A woman who thinks she can attract a man on personality alone is delusional, or is trying to find the rare breed of male that ISN’T visual. You have to dress for success, whether it’s for a job interview or a date. Plus, why should anyone put effort into you if you can put effort into yourself??
LIna May 30, 2014, 5:30 am
I understand where the writer is coming from. I kinda agree, putting some effort into your appearance and showing you are important to yourself is not necessarily putting make up.
A woman/man that takes care of her health and is happy in her skin sometimes is more than enough. All my friends didn’t end up marrying the six-pack guy or the skinny perfect model, we are just normal people that try to take care and take pride on our skins.
But I notice, when I just put a little eyeshadow and comb my hair well (easy and cheap things to do)/try to wear a new accessory, I feel good about it, and this makes everybody around the room feels the energy and they will either treat you well or at least respect you (although some women/men can feel threatened by you uping your beauty if you are out of place and context… like some girls with so much make up their faces end up looking like a pancake with cream and too much cherry cream on lips, thats make up for theater/Oscars/Broadway, not maybe for a daily meeting at a cafe lol).
Some women dont like make up/have allergies, is not who they are, and that is perfectly ok, you will prob going to attract somebody similar to you and not have to fake to be a make up beauty queen, is better than pretending and just using it to be noticed in my opinion. But also you can be beautiful being you too, the flannel shirt doesnt have to be the ugliest in the world, you dont have to be girly, you can wear a steel necklace accessory, clean cut, is just showing to the world/men that you love and invest in yourself, basically it I think that is it.
amylee August 10, 2014, 2:33 pm
I think you forgot one major thing-not all guys like the same type of women. Someone who is your 5 might be someone else’s 10. I am not what majority would consider attractive but to my boyfriend I’m beautiful. He is often mocked by his friends for having “a weird taste” in women but that’s just how he is. And I don’t wear makeup,ever.