Dear Wendy
Dear Wendy

“Men Are Tired of Women Not Paying for Dates”

I recently started dating a girl. We really enjoy each other’s company and we get along fine. We’re really into each other and we share many commonalities. There’s only one issue – money! After seven dates, I seem to be doing most of the paying (as per usual when a man is courting a woman). A few weeks ago, she asked me if I wanted to go see a concert which was $99 per ticket. I wasn’t interested in going and told her so. In the end, she never went. Was she seriously expecting me to pay for both tickets? Nearly $200! On one date I paid for two coffees and later on for a pizza. She should have offered to pay for the pizza. She did buy me a drink on one date (hooray) and she bought a fast food meal on another (hooray) but for the most part, I’ve done most (90%) of the paying.

On our most recent date, we had organised to go to the movies. I told her, prior to meeting her, to go to the supermarket to buy some popcorn or chocolate because it’s cheap. She told me she was happy to buy the popcorn at the movies. When I got there, I walked up to the counter to pay for two movie tickets and she was at the bar buying herself a drink. We then sat down and she said she had forgotten to ask if I wanted a drink. (How could she forget to offer me a drink? She saw me buying the movie tickets.) I declined, but then after five minutes, I said to her that I’d have that drink anyway. So she bought me a drink. She did end up buying the popcorn and chocolate from the supermarket, so we had them during the movie. After the movie, we decided to go for coffee. Guess who paid for this? I don’t mean to sound cheap, but she should have paid for the coffees. In fact, she should have paid for the movie tickets because the previous week I had paid for dinner.

This isn’t the first woman that I’ve had to spend money on. There’ve been others, of course. I’ve heard complaints from friends and other men about women NOT offering to pay. And you know what? I’m tired of it. Men are tired of it.

I’ve paid off my mortgage (she doesn’t know this) but earn an average salary. She’s got a big mortgage but earns slightly more than I do. But that’s not the point. Men and women are equal, right? A lot of women are more highly educated and many make more money than the males. Right? Women have purses with cash and credit cards in them. Right? These women are not poor or helpless or dependent. I think I’m right.

I don’t know how women get this old-fashioned mindset, but it’s really starting to annoy me. Personally, I work just as hard as any woman does for my money and I don’t find it fair. I just don’t want any woman getting the idea that I’m OK with it or that she can take advantage. I don’t want to be her ATM.

It would be nice if a woman offers to pay more often for a change. It’s about being appreciated and not taken advantage of. I am not cheap, but at the same time, I am not made of money. Does it make me a bad person to be thinking this way? I am a liberal, progressive thinker, and this traditional old-fashioned mindset seems backwards to me.

Where is it written that men have to pay on dates? Why can’t the man and woman split the bill or take it in turns? Aren’t men and women equal? How do I mention this to her without sounding cheap? — Not an ATM

I’m going to get to the paying for dates part in a minute, but first I want to discuss this idea that women and men are equal. It’s a nice idea, isn’t it? That men and women are equal? But we aren’t. Here in the US, for example, women still earn only 80 cents for every dollar earned by a man working the same job. Maybe you don’t live in the US; you spelled “organized” with an “s,” after all. In Canada, like the states, women earn about 80% of what men earn. In the UK, the gender gap is slightly smaller with women earning 85% of what their male counterparts earn, in Australia, women earn 86% of what men earn, and in progressive New Zealand, where the prime minister is a woman, the pay gap is a tight 9%, meaning women earn 91% of what their male counterparts earn (Hooray! as you might say—and, please, tell me again about how equal we are).

That’s not to say that women don’t have high earning potential. Plenty of women, as you pointed out with what sounds like the utmost respect, are highly-educated and gainfully-employed and make lots of money. You can bet on their way to success, though, that many women have had to put up with sexual harassment and being overlooked for raises, promotions, and positions because of their gender, have had to put up with being mansplained to and talked over in meetings and interviews and networking events, and have had to carefully and thoughtfully weigh their words so as not to harm a male colleague’s fragile ego and thereby threaten their own jobs, making their climb up the ladder even more impressive. But, yeah, ok, I’m sure you “work just as hard as any woman does” for your money. Any woman. Every woman. All women. Because we’re all the same, right? If you’ve worked as hard as one, you’ve worked as hard as all of ’em.

Question: Have you ever commuted home from a date — or anywhere, for that matter — and worried about being raped? Almost every woman I know has had that worry. And for many of us, sexual assault has been more than just a worry; it’s been a reality. Can you tell me again how equal we are? How life is as easy and fair for women as it is for men?

Do you ever think about how the law might regulate what you can and can’t do with your own body? Does it ever concern you that you might be forced into having a baby you don’t want? Have you ever considered that you might be raped on the way to your car after work, get pregnant, and then be forced to carry that baby to term because a group of people who never have and never will ever know what it’s like to be pregnant and give birth passed a law criminalizing abortion where you live? No, you haven’t, because you’re a man and you will never, ever have to worry about any of this. Hooray!

You will never have an unwanted pregnancy, you will never be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against your will, you will never have to worry about seeking an illegal and potentially unsafe abortion in an effort to save your own damn life and future. The likelihood of your being sexually harassed at work is a mere fraction of the percentage of women who are harassed every single day, and the chance of your being sexually assaulted as an adult male hovers in the single digits while, for women, it’s closer to 30%. Thirty fucking percent. That’s almost one in every three women you know, but tell me again how equal we are.

Tell me again how you and other men are sick and tired of footing the bill for dates more often than women do. It must be so hard to be a man and have to pay for coffee and pizza when your date is paying for nothing except the enormous fucking tax of being a female in this world and dealing with systemic sexism – in our government, in our laws, in our schools and homes and work places — worrying about so many things you never even have to consider. You don’t even get periods!

So, maybe I’m not the most sympathetic audience for your little rant about how sick and tired you are of being the victim of unfair sexist social practices — practices that you are 100% in control of NOT ENABLING OR PARTICIPATING IN. If you are sick of paying for your dates, STOP FUCKING PAYING FOR YOUR DATES! It’s not that hard. Grow some balls and say, “Hey, I’ve paid for the majority of our dates, but from now on I’d like us to take turns.” The worst that will happen is your date balks and refuses to go out with you again, which will save you money in the long run. It sure is better than, I don’t know, being sexually harassed at work, speaking up about it, and then losing your job.

Maybe I think your little rant carries more than a hint of misogyny. And maybe — no, definitely — I think you’re worried about sounding cheap because you know you ARE cheap. I’m sorry, but someone who’s keeping track of what basically amounts to pocket change spent on cups of coffee, slices of pizza, and FUCKING FAST FOOD is cheap AF. Telling your date to pick up chocolate and popcorn at the supermarket and then getting mad that she didn’t buy the movie tickets in addition to the beverages she also purchased because you paid for dinner the week prior is fucking cheap!

I will admit, though, that she was rude to not ask if you wanted a drink when she was buying one for herself. I guess some women just don’t know their place.

***************

Follow along on Facebook, and Instagram.

If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, you can send me your letters at wendy(AT)dearwendy.com.

259 comments… add one
  • avatar

    golfer.gal May 23, 2019, 9:30 am

    *slow claps*

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    • avatar

      Kate May 23, 2019, 9:47 am

      Haha, I was also going to write “slow clap.” Sometimes I feel like we share a brain.

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      • avatar

        golfer.gal May 23, 2019, 12:28 pm

        Haha agreed. I felt the slow clap summarized many of my feelings about this post.

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  • avatar

    Buttery May 23, 2019, 9:33 am

    OMG! I have finally finished laughing at your letter. It took awhile, whew!
    You are ridiculous person and I’m not even going to talk about all the stuff Wendy said, which yes, TRUE.
    But why are you such a…ding dong, that you can’t just SAAAAAAY – hey I paid for the last “date” can you pay for the next? I mean even a TODDLER knows how to make requests for taking turns! I mean ya sure can bitch and moan on some website about “women” but you can’t even have a basic AF conversation with your “EQUAL”? Why not?
    And you may note that I put date in quotations because I mean wow, I would never consider some ass taking me to fast food a “date”. Are you really complaining about spending $5 on some womans meal?! A slice of PIZZA?? Maaaybe $4 and I’m just saying that because I live in NY. Of course I don’t eat fast food OR pizza (on the real), so lucky me I never even got out of the starting block with guys like you and yes I have been asked. But I’ll digress, that’s just me and I know some folks would consider it a date. Also, I’ve gone out with broke guys but guess what, they were creative and interesting and fun people with fun ideas – picnics and sunbathing on rooftops or in the park, having a “cook out” in the living room with a small grill on the fire escape, going to the beach, museum, walk in the park etc., etc., etc. (and yes, I have and do reciprocate) but you, dude are just an unrequited tool with no intelligent ideas about a damn thing apparently, who can’t even carry on a conversation. Apparently.
    So to be clear, this isn’t an issue of getting someone to pay – though to me it sounds like you’re pretty undesirable so maybe THATS why she doesn’t want to pay. I’ve gone out with guys that I wouldn’t pay one red cent to hangout with and taken out guys that were awesome. So maybe you just suck.

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  • avatar

    dinoceros May 23, 2019, 9:42 am

    Why not just tell her that you want to split things evenly? I guess I don’t know why you would spend all this time writing a letter to people on the internet when you could just have a conversation in real life with the actual person you are dating. If you repeatedly offer to pay for things and never say that you have a problem with that, then you’re going to attract people who assume you’re going to pay. If your response to getting annoyed with someone you’re dating is to say nothing, resent them and then complain about them online, then I’m concerned about how you’re going to have a more serious relationship where you have to be able to communicate. I don’t know any women personally who expect men to pay for everything, so maybe you also just happen to be choosing a type of woman who does? I know a lot of guys who are very specifically into women who are traditional and conservative and super feminine and then are surprised when that woman holds traditional beliefs.

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  • avatar

    dinoceros May 23, 2019, 9:50 am

    Also, did she say that you had to pay for the concert? Because maybe she’s just like a lot of people who don’t go to concerts alone. The fact that you assume the worst of her makes me wonder why you’re even dating her if you dislike her so much and find her so greedy.

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  • avatar

    brise May 23, 2019, 9:59 am

    Yes, just tell her: “let’s share the price, all right?” See, it isn’t complicated.
    But a man who asks me to buy popcorn in a supermarket because it is cheaper than at the movies, in advance for a date, would be erased of my objects of interest. So unromantic! You sound just tightfisted (pizza, fast food!), which is not sexy at all.
    If you don’t want to be taken advantage of, then ask to share the dates, or suggest to alternate the date costs. The one who organises the date takes charge of the costs. Simple. You both are awkward because the modus operandi is unclear: who pays? Make it clear.
    To go to the bottom of the question: if you want to date, you have to accept the idea that it costs money. A partner will cost you money. Couple life costs money. Having children is the most expensive thing in life. Just wake up: you won’t have your cake and it it.

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  • avatar

    Buzzlebee May 23, 2019, 10:02 am

    I don’t disagree with anything Wendy said but what bugs me is that you’re pretending to be someone you’re not to the point you’re resentful. I mean if you’re cheap you’re cheap. It’s not like you’re going to suddenly be not cheap in 6 months and if it’s important to you to be frugal why would you pretend to be otherwise. I get putting your best self forward at first in getting to know someone and I wouldn’t suggest starting a first day with, hey I’m super cheap and I hope you’re cool with that. But by date 3 you should in a not crazy way address it. If you imagine continuing to see her maybe suggest alternating paying or plan cheap dates where you don’t mind picking up the tab. God knows every great relationship starts with pretending to be someone different and building up resentment.

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    • avatar

      Vathena May 23, 2019, 10:15 am

      Totally this – I have a good friend who is fantastic with money and makes a ton of it, and will spend when necessary but is unabashedly cheap. Last time I visited I discovered that she basically never buys her own shampoo; she has a closet full of 5-star hotel shampoos that she swiped during her lavish business travels. She’d appreciate a guy who wanted to buy movie popcorn at the grocery store (but sorry dude, she’s married) whereas I would not.

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    • avatar

      csp May 23, 2019, 10:57 am

      LW – I totally agree with this. I am proudly conservative with my money. I have been married to a guy who is the same way. I think you should find a Dave Ramsey group where you can find like minded people. After 7 dates, i think it is time to start really talking about values and how they line up. What do you value and what do you want out of a relationship. I am someone who never buys lunch during the week because I think it is a total waste of money but never miss a vacation. I found a partner that feels the same way. I think finding out if someone lines up with your values is important so start having the big conversations. Take this time to find out if you are actually compatible.

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    • avatar

      Part-time Lurker May 23, 2019, 1:40 pm

      Loved Wendy’s response and many of the other comments as well.

      OP, if this bothers you so much, may I ask why you haven’t simply had a straight forward discussion with your date? I.E., “Doris, I’d really like it if we could go Dutch. Would you be open to that?” Super simple.

      PS The Pink Tax on tampons is a “first world problem” because women in third world countries can’t afford and/or don’t have access to, feminine hygiene products and in some cases aren’t even allowed to be seen in public or interact with their families during their period.

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  • avatar

    Vathena May 23, 2019, 10:10 am

    Look, I agree with you in principle – sharing costs for dates is a good thing to do. But by the second or third sentence of you letter, I was rolling my eyes at your lack of communication. Use your words! If you want to split the bill or take turns paying, then SAY SO. People aren’t mind readers.

    Also, you do sound like a tightwad. Frugality and financial responsibility are great (congrats on paying off your house) but FFS. You sound well-off enough that you won’t miss a few bucks here and there. What’s the total amount you’ve spent on pizza, coffee, and a movie? Are you eating cat food by lantern-light to afford those Avengers tickets? Why do you know how much your date makes, and how much her mortgage is? I hope you tip decently, although it doesn’t sound like you go to table-service restaurants very often.

    (PS: Wendy, that was a masterful response, I was also slow clapping with tears in my eyes. Bravo!)

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    • avatar

      Buttery May 23, 2019, 12:08 pm

      I think this is what I find ridiculous about this person, all this complaining about buying fast food and movie tickets and coffee. Damn near the cheapest things on the freaking planet. Frankly that could be why she’s never offered to pay – didn’t know you needed help paying for that big mac, dude!

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  • bittergaymark

    Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 10:11 am

    Eh, some women truly are cheap. The woman this LW is dating is 100% a fucking mooch. Validating her lame behavior through a predictably “woke” rant about our sexist society may get you slow claps from the peanut gallery, but it’s not addressing the real issue.
    .
    Women either are equals or they aren’t. This curious issue of some woman wanting to not pay for anything in 2019 is oddly self-sexist. And hilariously retrograde. If some really want to be “bought” like chattel? Fine, I guess. But it IS tiresome. And it IS lame. And calling it out doesn’t make one a bad person. Honestly? The LW should just dump her ass. Pretending to not remember to ask if he wanted a drink? Weak. Pathetic. And —yes! Annoying.
    .
    Yeah. I’d be annoyed. In the gay world, we are above all such nonsense. Although I suppose as we are both “fags” and put up with DECADES of shit none of us can whine or win an argument about who has been the most oppressed, the most beaten up, or the most discriminated against. We can’t hold any of that against the person we claim to be falling for.
    .
    PS — unwanted pregnancies aren’t exactly rocket science to avoid. Good lord, if I fucked as dumbly as most straights I’d have died from AIDS decades ago… The current abortion mess is a real tragedy. But this was brought about by A) the hubris of a foolish party that insisted on backing a truly unpopular candidate. B) bratty millennials who couldn’t bother voting. C) (a majority?!) of simpleton white women who somehow voted for Trump. The latter of which simply astounds me. I’d love to know who this woman voted for. But lemme take a wild guess. It wasn’t HRC.

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    • Dear Wendy

      Dear Wendy May 23, 2019, 10:20 am

      Talk about predictable.

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    • bittergaymark

      Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 10:29 am

      Touche’! Your response to this LW wasn’t predictable. I’ll give you that. It was much more dismissive than I expected.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 23, 2019, 10:37 am

        You under-estimated me, I guess. Why wouldn’t I dismiss this LW’s complaint? It’s a problem that he’s responsible for. He is enabling something he doesn’t like, and participating in a social practice that he thinks is outdated. And then he’s claiming OUTRAGE over it and talking about how sick and tired men are being treated so unfairly. I merely pointed out some of the ways women are treated unfairly that happen to have much, MUCH higher stakes then the price of a fucking slice of pizza or being thought of as cheap and for which we have far less control than saying, “You know what what – it’s your turn to pay this time.” Give me a fucking break.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 10:37 am

        A majority of white women did not vote for Trump. Exit polling suggested that, but a later study not biased by the kind of people who will stop and do an exit poll puts it at 47%, essentially a tie with Clinton. Same study finds only 39% of all women voted for Trump. 54% of women voted for Clinton. 62% of white men voted for Trump. 52% of men overall voted for Trump.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 10:54 am

        Kate: do you remember the source of that study? I’d love to check it out. I know I had read my claim in a wide variety of sources. BUT they all easily could have simply quoted the earlier biased/inaccurate date you mention. Yeah… I’d love to give it a look. A tie though is still pretty shocking. The white men stat doesn’t surprise me. I lost faith in straight white men long ago, sadly. But the fact that Trump got 39 percent of the female vote is simply bizarre and shocking. Yikes.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 10:58 am

        Whoops. Sorry for the multiple posts. My phone isn’t staying logged in and so the first post seemingly went MIA.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 11:00 am

        Pew Research. Published August 2018. I know it’s convenient af to blame silly women who don’t know what’s in their best interest, for Trump’s win, but it was actually men who were in the majority for Trump, not women at all.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 11:02 am

        39% of women isn’t anywhere close to a majority and it’s really not shocking if you think about who these women are, where they live, and how they were raised. Hello, the Patriarchy?

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 11:09 am

        Don’t get me wrong. Men are to blame for Trump. Their voting record alone suggests the majority are dumb and quite easily duped.
        .
        But if even 10% — maybe 5% percent of more women had simply better voted in their own self interests we wouldn’t be in this mess.
        .
        Naturally, the same can be said of men, too. As many farmers are only now slowly realizing they have slit their own throats.

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      • avatar

        Nikita May 23, 2019, 11:10 am

        Unwanted pregnancies are not that easy to avoid, the majority of abortions are done by women ON birthcontrol.

        Something the rightwing extremists cant seem to comprehend, its really simple biology.

        No method of birthcontrol, not even tubals or vasectomies are a 100% safe, and with the huge numbers of women on birthcontrol those unwanted pregnancies skyrocket rather quickly.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 11:21 am

        Thanks, Kate. I will check out that study. 39% is shocking (to me) when one recalls that one of the few things Trump never lied about was his idiotic and immoral stance on abortion. Although maybe I am naive and 39 % of women are pro-life… Anybody know? That has to be wrong though… It can’t be that high.

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      • avatar

        ron May 23, 2019, 2:55 pm

        Kate —
        Even going by the Pew study: while a majority of white women didn’t vote for Trump, a plurality did. He won this demo is the Pew survey by 47% to 46%. 98% of black women voted HRC, compared to less than 1% for Trump. The Pew article does mention that people ‘forget’ how they voted after the election; presumably a month is enough time for this to occur.

        Trump’s views on abortion shifted over the years, but I think were clear on election day. It was clear from day one that he was hugely misogynist.

        Certainly a higher % of men than women voted Trump. He campaigned as an alpha male. Working class men were his base. Still, the electorate, those who actually voted, were 55% women, 45% men.

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        Kate May 23, 2019, 3:05 pm

        Ok Ron, so blame men for not getting out and voting AND for a majority of them voting for Trump.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 3:16 pm

        Also, I’m sure a lot of people forgot within a month whether they voted for Trump or Clinton. With how divided the country is, that’s really plausible.

        And look, even with more of the electorate being women, and white women being split between the candidates, HRC *won the popular vote.* That’s because, again, only 39% of *women* voted Trump. Not a majority. Not even a plurality.

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    • avatar

      Kate May 23, 2019, 11:17 am

      Then why do you keep only calling out women? I mean, I know why, it’s because you think they’re too dumb to know what’s good for them. But again, unfortunately, a lot of them are controlled and suppressed by men. It was sexism, racism, and Russian meddling that got Trump elected.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 11:29 am

        Half of men, and half of women, are pro-life. Religion, the patriarchy, etc.

        But hey, again, way less than half of women voted for Trump.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 11:37 am

        I guess because I truly expected more from women. Look. I have long had a very low opinion of men. (Straight men especially.) But honestly? I expected maybe a meager 15% of women to vote for Trump. 15% tops. So yeah…. it was all very surprising. And disappointing. Clearly, I underestimated the sheer volume of stupidity in America. Both male and female. But really? Only the latter so surprised me.

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        ron May 23, 2019, 12:45 pm

        It was reported from the start (exit interviews) that the majority of women voted for HRC, but that was driven by a huge majority among women of color. Among white women, a small majority was listed as having supported Trump. This is the demographic which BGM cited. The really startling demographic, which is the one I often cite is married white women. Trump carried this demo by a large margin as he did terribly among single white women. Married white women as a group are very conservative.

        I read an article this week, which I tried to find, but is no longer ‘up’, I guess where white, non-college grad women found HRC (and most college grad/professional women) to be unrelatable and would not support a woman for president, whether HRC, Warren, or Harris.

        I’m not sure how the Pew study was conducted or how valid, because there is a long history of voters not admitting to their errors significantly after the fact. As Trump has bombed — especially on women’s issues, I would expect a lot of denial. If the Pew study is eligible voters, rather than actual voters, well… the older voters and the evangelical voters have a much higher turnout rate.

        Kate is right on many of the white women who supported Trump. Evangelicals are 23% of the electorate and male and female voted about the same way, with gay rights, abortion rights, and immigration their big issues — along with a not-admitted racism.

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        Kate May 23, 2019, 1:06 pm

        You guys can google the study and read it. Exit polls are problematic because a lot of ppl already voted before Election Day, and a lot of voters refuse to be interviewed.

        The Pew study was conducted in Nov-Dec 2016 and was among ppl who were identified as having voted via voting records. So, verified voters.

        I know you guys don’t want to give up your claim to blaming women that seems to be supported by those exit polls, but this research paints a bit of a different picture.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 1:23 pm

        I’m not blaming women. But rather saying they share in the blame. There is a huge difference.
        .
        PS — after all the silky marches and endless rallies, I remain fucking shocked Dems somehow failed to take the Senate.
        .
        Had that happened? Trump would be behind bars.
        .
        Right now I have lost faith in ALL Americans. Honestly? Amerika is looking about as bleak and messed up as my sorry life is. There is truly no hope for either at this point. Sigh… it’s all very depressing.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 1:30 pm

        Sorry, but men elected Trump, not women. You had a majority of men in total voting for Trump, and a minority of women. Hillary still won the popular vote, but she’d be president if 39% of men voted for Trump, like 39% of women did.

        And the fact that you continue to be surprised that fewer women didn’t vote for Trump just indicates that you don’t understand the (male) forces keeping women down.

        Men did this.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 1:50 pm

        Fine, Kate. You win. Men did this all alone. Women truly are powerless. Which is profoundly disturbing because if enough women insist on remaining oppressed and powerless… well, then, I’m right. There truly is no hope for Amerika.
        .
        (*Gays and Lesbians have been equally oppressed by society — if not more so… and yet curiously… only 14% percent voted for Trump.)
        .
        GRIMFLASH: Unless something remarkable and unexpected happens… Trump WILL get re-elected.
        .
        Sigh… The democratic field was looking pretty good until that Biden (HRC2) jumped in. If he gets the nomination? All will truly be lost. Oh, I’ll gag and vomit in the toilet as I vote for him. But many won’t. See? HRC all over again. Sigh…

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        Kate May 23, 2019, 1:54 pm

        Yeah, fuck Biden.

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        Kate May 23, 2019, 1:58 pm

        But women obviously aren’t powerless, are they? Because 61% of them managed to not vote for Trump. While only a minority of men could bring themselves to do that.

        I get your point about the LGB community, but the thing about them is that, unlike straight women, they’re not under the control of straight men in the form of fathers and husbands. It’s a different dynamic in terms of the patriarchy. Gay women and men aren’t living with straight men in family units.

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    • avatar

      Buttery May 23, 2019, 12:10 pm

      You’re calling women cheap but how is this guy not cheap, he takes her to fast food dates and the movies. And she’s cheap. Straight up woman hating and double standards.

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      • avatar

        golfer.gal May 23, 2019, 12:38 pm

        I thought Trump did lie about his stance on abortion? I could be totally wrong but i thought he flipped on being both pro choice and an atheist once he realized who his voting base was. He tried to pass it off as “a change of heart”

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 1:05 pm

        So far he’s pretty much paid for everything it seems. Unwilling to be overly generous? Yes. Cheap? No.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 1:16 pm

        Also, I never called women cheap. Reread my post. I specifically said —some women. And here I was talking mainly about this one woman.
        .
        Honestly? I believe that the amount of women presently “cheap” like this truly are a minority. But a sizable one. I dunno. Maybe 30%? The whole issue of who should pay has come up here and on many other websites often enough to suggest the man always pays thing / should always make more money thing is not exactly a fringe view. I remain surprised how often it comes up in advice columns. Really, I have no horse in that race. But it’s interesting… It seems so sexist and patriarchal to me. Blech.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 1:29 pm

        golfer.gal – Hmmmm. Strange. I do NOT remember that at all, but I admittedly tuned out Trump for a very long time. So I easily could have simply missed it.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 2:00 pm

        Trump was absolutely a pro-life liberal before he ran for president. That’s well documented.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 2:00 pm

        * pro choice I mean.

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      • avatar

        saneinca May 23, 2019, 2:12 pm

        How does it work for the gays dating? Do they go Dutch?

        From what I heard , younger good looking guys expect the older, richer guys to pay for everything.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 2:30 pm

        Saneinca: I was always attracted to guys my own age. Pretty much a level playing field career wise. And thus it was often most always dutch. Or often alternate dates… A few times, I dated crazy rich guys (though honestly, I have always made the least money. Longtime loser here.) who insisted on paying for everything.
        .
        That said. In age lopsided relationships… The younger hot guy often will NOT pay especially as that truly is all they bring to the table. I know I sound bitter about this. But my big regret is my foolish over confidence / morality meant I never just went with an older guy who paid for everything.
        .
        That would have been using a guy for his money. And that always felt gross and wrong to me. Though I’d have been much nicer than most who do this it seems…
        .
        But My ship was always just about to come in — or so I foolishly thought. Yep, I was above that.
        .
        NEWSFLASH: My ship never did come in. (Nor will it.). I guess it sank or was dashed upon the rocks somewhere… and now it’s too late. Nobody and I mean nobody wants a trophy boyfriend of 48. And rightly so.
        .
        Slow curtain. The End.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 2:39 pm

        That is true, Kate. But eh… going back that far… HRC herself was longly publicly opposed to gay marriage UNTIL she ran for President. (*Honestly, I don’t even think she was pro gay marriage until after her first loss of the nomination to Obama…)
        .
        HRC tried to pretend she was the second coming of Madonna with regards to gay rights, but — really — she came rather late to the party. Doing so only long after it was both fashionable and an established part of the platform to do so. No trailblazer was she.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 2:55 pm

        Edit: Yep, I was right. HRC only first publicly supported gay marriage in 2013. A scant six years ago…
        .
        https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/

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    • avatar

      LW May 23, 2019, 5:43 pm

      It’s the LW here.
      Thanks for your comments Bittermark,

      I went out to dinner last night. She ordered a $20 meal and mine was $10. When it was time to pay, She said i’ll pay for mine and you pay for yours. I was so disappointed…. I was gobsmacked

      She couldn’t pay for my meal ?? which was only $10 ??

      Last time we went to dinner, i paid for everything and it was $45!

      Sorry Wendy, not a huge fan of your advice this time.

      Reply Link
      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 23, 2019, 7:19 pm

        Oy vey.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 7:35 pm

        You know what, LW? Surprise, surprise. I’m with you. What she suggested is simply… tacky. Very tacky. Oh, and very cheap. I’d dump anybody who pulled that crap on me. So… Dump her. Hopefully, she’s an isolated incident.
        .
        That said, maybe try being more up front about splitting date costs. Apparently, one needs to REALLY spell it out.

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      • avatar

        Ele4phant May 23, 2019, 7:43 pm

        You need to open your gd mouth about what your expectations are and talk with her.

        Going Dutch is a totally normal, modern way many long term couples choose to split the cost of dating. Trading off every other date – also normal. Nickel and diming so there’s exact parity on a daily or weekly or whatever basis – that’s a little more unusual but there are couples that do it.

        She’s not out of line with her approach. It wouldn’t be out of line either to trade off entirely – but it’s not fair to expect her to read your mind.

        Tell her you would prefer to trade off on planning dates, and then whoever plans pays. Then you can both choose a budget your happy with for your respective turns.

        Some forewarning – If you choose more expensive dates though – she doesn’t owe you the same in return when it’s her turn. If you’re not okay with the idea that your dates are expensive and hers aren’t, then pick less expensive dates that are more in line with what she chooses.

        You don’t have a right to demand someone spend more than they want to.

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 23, 2019, 7:44 pm

        LOL. Have you even spoken up once about how you want to split bills? Why are you still seeing her? You sound so full of spite and so indignant.

        If you don’t want to pay, then don’t. It’s really not that hard to figure out how to communicate.

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      • avatar

        Vathena May 23, 2019, 8:26 pm

        You obviously don’t like her that much. Just MOA and next time you go out with someone, TALK TO HER about how you’d prefer to split costs. Sorry you’ll be eating cat food because you spent $45 on a swank meal at Applebee’s. *eyeroll*

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      • avatar

        LW May 23, 2019, 8:28 pm

        STOP FUCKING PAYING FOR YOUR DATES! It’s not that hard. Grow some balls and say, “Hey, I’ve paid for the majority of our dates, but from now on I’d like us to take turns.” The worst that will happen is your date balks and refuses to go out with you again, which will save you money in the long run. It sure is better than, I don’t know, being sexually harassed at work, speaking up about it and then losing your job.

        Ref above: I shouldn’t have to tell her , SHE should OFFER to pay… that’s my point.

        If it’s in good form for a man to pick up the check while courting a woman, we should also be able to agree that it’s in good form for a woman to INSIST on picking up the check while he’s courting you. Yeah??

        What has being sexually harassed at work go to do with it?????? That’s a different issue. Where does that come into it?

        This is about dating Wendy. Plain and simple.

        I speak for every man that got sick of being an ATM.

        The FAST FOOD meal was a quick meal at a mall while shopping. Nothing wrong with that .

        My comments carry a hint of misogyny ? That’s unfair.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 2:17 am

        You use the word “unfair” a lot in relation to your experience with women. It’s really ironic.

        *You* were the one who framed your problem with the argument that men and women are equal; I merely pointed out some of the many ways we actually have a long, long way to go to enjoy equality. You’re lucky in that the way you feel the victim of unfair and unequal social practices is completely in your control to change. The same can not be said for the many ways women are victims of unfair social practices.

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 23, 2019, 8:36 pm

        She should know better.

        What if she doesn’t? What if every other person she’s dated has paid for everything? What if her ex had his masculinity tied to who paid, and this she doesn’t push it now?

        You should know better! You should be a able to say, “Hey can we split dinner tonight?” Or “Do you mind getting the check, I think I’ve paid the last 2 times.”

        If you can’t even talk about going Dutch on a date without some internal meltdown, you shouldn’t be dating. But clearly, since you can’t discuss this, please continue quietly seething. I’m sure she’ll eventually pick up on the ESP messages you’re sending her.

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 23, 2019, 8:40 pm

        I’m pretty sure she’d be dating someone with better taste in food if she were truly looking for an ATM.

        Are you involuntarily celibate?

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 8:48 pm

        Um… she took HIM out for that much maligned fastfood meal. To me that reads like it was her pick. That was HER destination if choice. And that was pretty fucking tacky. Only picking up the full tab at Jack In The Box…

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 23, 2019, 9:25 pm

        “Ref above: I shouldn’t have to tell her , SHE should OFFER to pay… that’s my point.”

        Okay well good luck expecting women, or really anyone, to read your mind.

        I understand you have a clear very vision of how you think the world should work, but the truth is social norms are influx. It’s a confusing ambiguous world out there right now. You could be discounting perfectly compatible women, women that would be totally cool to meet your expectations if you just MADE THEM CLEAR.

        I understand you may find it disappointing that the world doesn’t seamlessly operate how you think it should, but you’re a grown-up. The world is full of disappointments. Use your words, give her an honest shot to meet your expectations.

        No sympathy if you refuse to have an candid conversation about your wants and needs.

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 23, 2019, 9:27 pm

        Also BGM – come on with this tacky sh*t. He’s the dude that wanted to sneak in candy and popcorn into the movie theater. That’s tacky as all hell.

        They actually sound like they might be a good match, from a fiscal values standpoint. If he can just open his mouth and talk to her about what he wants and needs.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 11:09 pm

        Honestly? It is weird to me that one has to have a conversation about somebody doing not only the right but most obious thing. I.E. equally paying for dates. Is it really news that few like to be taken for a ride?
        .
        It’d be like me writing in and complaining that my new man had a rather bizarre penchant for tossing drinks in the faces of the waiters and waitresses and everybody then blithely opined … “Now, Mark. Wait! Wait, wait, wait. Have you told him how you feel about this? How is he supposed to know that you don’t approve of summarily abusing the waitstaff. Gay men are not mind readers, you know…”
        .
        Okay, it’s an absurd example to be sure. But that this logical fairly equal division about who pays for dates in 2019 strikes me as equally absurd.

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 23, 2019, 11:42 pm

        There are lots of things that I think should be clear and obvious that just aren’t. In life, never assume. Speak up, even if it seems unnecessary. Even if it should be unnecessary.

        The fact that he is encountering this with multiple women indicates that although he wishes it to just be self-evident it is not.

        You say paying equally should be self-evident, but what does that mean, operationally? There are couples who operate under the you pay for you, I pay for me model (which kind of seems what she seems to be doing, at least some of the time?) Other couples split 50-50 down the middle every time. Others switch off paying. Some keep a running ledger that they try to keep equal over the long-term. Any of those could be described as “paying equally”. There are a lot of different models out there and no right answer, so long as both people in the couple are clear and happy. If he’s not being clear and he’s not happy, that’s on him to clarify.

        And come on, assault and outright disrespect of other people is different than having different practices when it comes to splitting costs, and you know it. Stop being hyperbolic.

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      • avatar

        LW May 24, 2019, 12:01 am

        anonymousse , when i paid for dinner $45. the last time, she said that she’ll shout next time…and she never did…

        If it’s in good form for a man to pick up the check while courting a woman, we should also be able to agree that it’s in good form for a woman to INSIST on picking up the check while he’s courting you. …

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      • avatar

        LW May 24, 2019, 4:15 am

        Part of a good dating relationship includes doing nice things for each other, and that means paying for dates, too.

        Women want to have it both ways- be treated as equals when it benefits them, but revert to old-school helplessness when it comes to paying.

        I’ll be talking to my gal about splitting the bill or taking it in turns.
        If she doesn’t agree, then we ain’t a match.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 6:12 am

        That’s the misogyny I’m talking about: “Women want to have it both ways- be treated as equals when it benefits them, but revert to old-school helplessness when it comes to paying.” And the fact that you don’t see that and that you don’t see how your comment that you work just as hard as “any woman” is wrong in multiple ways (you don’t know every woman; I am absolutely positive that there are lots of women who work harder than you. Just as I am absolutely positive that there are so many women – and men – who work harder than I do because I am an average worker). The idea that just because the handful of women you’ve dated haven’t offered to pay for you means ALL women are like that is fucked up. Honestly, maybe the women who have gone out with you feel like their owed something — a free coffee, a movie — in doing so.

        And, frankly, to rant and rave about how we’re equal except for when it comes to going on dates is one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve ever heard. I laid out a bunch of ways we aren’t equal. Are you as pissed off about unequal pay as you are about paying an extra few dollars on your dates? Are you pissed off about abortions rights being threatened in much of he first world? Do you think it’s fair how poorly women are still treated in work places? No? Then you aren’t really the “progressive” you think you are.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 6:59 am

        And admit it – the reason you haven’t yet talked about splitting bills is because you are so afraid of appearing as the very thing you are, which is cheap! I’m not saying that it’s cheap for men to expect women to pay for half their dates; but it is cheap AF to have this much resentment over the cost of pizza and coffee. You know you’re cheap, and you resent that having a conversation about money might highlight that trait. You think it’s “unfair.” If you could walk a mile in the shoes of women — or someone of color (because without you telling me whether you’re white, I know you sure as shit are) you’d understand what “unfair” actually feels like.

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 24, 2019, 6:40 am

        Trust me, you aren’t a match. Because you’re pretending to be someone you aren’t, because you can’t communicate, because you’re seething with resentment and anger about paying for coffee.

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      • Lucidity

        Lucidity May 24, 2019, 10:07 am

        Yes, she should be offering to pay.   But for whatever reason, she’s not.  Maybe her exes have insisted on paying in the past, maybe she’s living paycheque to paycheque, maybe she’s just cheap.

        So your options are either to a) have a conversation in which you lay out how you’d like to divvy up the cost of dates, or b) stop dating her.  It’s really simple.  Why are you sitting on this and getting more and more upset?  Why don’t you feel like you can say simple things like “I picked up the cheque the last two times, do you think you could treat tonight?” or “You know, I feel like I’ve been treating you a lot, but it would actually be my preference if we could split the cost of our dates evenly going forward.” 

        You could have saved yourself a lot of frustration by speaking up a long time ago. You may have found that she’s fine with splitting the bill or taking turns. You might be getting upset over assumptions about her that aren’t even true – you’re fuming over the concert invite, but you’re the one who assumed she wanted you to pay for both tickets.

        You asked for advice about how to talk to her about this, but you complain that you shouldn’t have to.  Your letter reads like you want to go off on this woman about how you feel taken advantage of, but can’t because you want to keep dating her, so you decided to go off about all women to Wendy instead.  The woman you’re dating doesn’t sound very considerate (the drink thing at the movies was a jerk move), but your letter and subsequent comments make you sound like someone cursing at a vending machine because it ate your dollar.  Whinging rants on a women-oriented website aren’t going to get your date to magically be the kind of person who is going to offer to pay, nor will they teach Wendy and the rest of the women on here a lesson about proper dating etiquette. 

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  • avatar

    anonymousse May 23, 2019, 10:20 am

    Thank you, Wendy! Perfect response!

    Don’t forget about the pink tax. Don’t forget about the money that goes into date prep for a woman. Somehow I doubt that you’re into women who don’t wear makeup, shave etc.

    You are pretending to be a generous man or something that you aren’t. You don’t want to sound cheap, because you do sound cheap. You don’t however, sound that into her if you write into an advice column with basically a scorecard of who paid for what and when. You think she’s taking advantage of you, and that all women take advantage of you and your friends. The funniest part is that it isn’t even that you’ve been going on expensive dates! My big wild guess here is that she hasn’t had sex with you, and that the real reason you feel used.

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    • TheLadyE

      TheLadyE May 23, 2019, 10:31 am

      I was going to comment about the pink tax too! Men have NO idea the amount of money it takes to upkeep a woman’s appearance. Sure, men might say “I don’t care if women do that stuff” but that’s bull. Just the hair maintenance alone (washing/conditioning, hairstyling, shaving, waxing, etc) is so much more than what men have to spend, not even counting any skincare or cosmetics. And then there’s the clothes.

      I say this as a woman who out-earns my current boyfriend and who is happy to pay for things OR buy food for us to cook together at home without going out. He bought me 2 glasses of wine at my comedy show last weekend and I spent about $60 on groceries for us to have while he was at my house because he’s vegan. Think about the behind-the-scenes stuff she also pays for. If I thought my boyfriend was this resentful toward me about money but wasn’t talking to me about it, that would be really frustrating and would signal a lack of maturity needed to be in a relationship.

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    MMR May 23, 2019, 10:27 am

    I think Wendy is coming down a *little* hard on this guy. All of the difficulties she listed are definitely true, but this guy on his own is not responsible for them. Yes, he can acknowledge that inequality still exists, push back when he witnesses sexism, etc, but he’s not complaining about her choice not to shave her legs or refusing to do his laundry. He’s upset because a woman who earns more than him isn’t paying for any of their dates.

    My beef with this guys is that he’s silently sulking about something that’s so easily fixed. As women have struggled to do for years – if you think you’re being treated unfairly then SAY SOMETHING. Anonymously writing to an advice blog isn’t going to magically change women everywhere. “OMG! I didn’t even realize – of course I should be paying just as much for our dates!”

    Stop waiting for someone to read your mind and speak up.

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    Kali May 23, 2019, 10:36 am

    WOmen also need to fear retaliation and possible physical harm or even death from mentally unstable men who feel we owed them something and didn’t put out. LW is wrong, cheap, and scary AF. I hope he gets counseling.

    Money can’t buy you class.

    Reply Link
    • bittergaymark

      Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 1:31 pm

      Wait, wait. Wait.?Did you just quote who I think you did?! If so… “Elegance is LEARNED!!”

      Reply Link
  • bittergaymark

    Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 10:39 am

    Sorry, but the whole Pink Tax kinda sorta cracks me up. What about the Lavender Tax? Or the (I suspect much more expensive) Black Tax? Pink Tax… talk about first world problems…

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      anonymousse May 23, 2019, 10:50 am

      Whataboutisms!

      You’re right, it is a first world problem to complain about buying a slice of pizza. He should be thankful he’s out on a date at all.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      dinoceros May 23, 2019, 6:15 pm

      There are still poor people in the first-world…

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        Kate May 23, 2019, 6:23 pm

        I don’t know why we have to keep explaining this. Many people in the US make such extremely little money, even working multiple jobs, that they struggle to feed their families and pay the electric bill. A box of fucking tampons is several dollars. And literally is taxed. And in order to look presentable for jobs and dates, women need a lot more than a bar of soap as someone alluded to. They need a shampoo and conditioner that will make their hair look smooth and moisturized. They need expensive hair removal products. Facial cleanser and moisturizer so their skin is smooth and clear. You can debate makeup, but there are some necessities and they really add up. If you’re not a woman, great, good for you, but you can’t say the pink tax isn’t real. Women’s products cost more than men’s products, it’s a fact.

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  • avatar

    Arra May 23, 2019, 10:55 am

    LW shouldn’t date.

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    Nikita May 23, 2019, 11:13 am

    Let me guess LW, your date hasnt put out yet and you wanna see a return on your “investment”

    You sound like a sorry sod, you arent dating you are keeping a scorecard.

    If you talk to her you might find out she had a shitty experience offering to pay on another date, but noooo she must be a user.

    Frankly date of LW, please move along cuz this sod isnt worth your time or any womans time.

    Reply Link
    • bittergaymark

      Bittergaymark May 23, 2019, 1:03 pm

      That’s a pretty malicious assumption based on nothing. Nowhere does he imply that in even the vaguest sense.

      Reply Link
  • Skyblossom

    Skyblossom May 23, 2019, 11:19 am

    If you go to buy tickets and she goes to buy drinks and you come back with two tickets and she comes back with one drink, for herself, you know it is pointless to continue dating her.

    In the future bring up how things will be paid for sooner. Ask if you can take turns paying for dates or ask if you can each pay half or whatever it is you like. If she says yes continue to see her if you like and if she says no then don’t go out with her any more. Use the question about how things will be paid for to weed out women that will annoy you.

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    Essie May 23, 2019, 11:57 am

    Dude. Use your words. All of this anger and resentment could have been avoided if you’d just had a casual conversation about this on, say, the second date. “Hey, so how do you wanna handle paying for dinners and movies and stuff?” Simple.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      Poppy May 23, 2019, 3:06 pm

      LW, first off i want to say that I think its awesome you have paid off your mortgage. Thats a big achievement and to me it shows you are very financially stable and smart with your money. Its irrelevant the cost factor of what it cost a women or man to get ready for dates. Thats not your problem if she buys $60 foundation and a $400 micheal kors purse. A bar of soap that cost $1.00 will get you squeaky clean from head to toe. So i wont jump to the “your a cheapskate” because you’ve been on 7 dates and say she hasnt paid for one, right? Well if the bill for these dates were $80-$100 then thats $560-$700 and if this is within a 2 month period then thats FUCKING expensive for one person fitting the bill. Sure fast food and the movies can be cheap dates but if your going on multiple dates it adds up. You can easily spend $50 at the movies if not more. At some point you have to communicate to her to either split cost or rotate. I will also say that if you like her and see potential then dont complain about whining and dining her. I would like to know how much you spend on coffee to be complaining about it. If your talking Starbucks coffee i could understand. Why not go back to your place and do dinner and coffee. Or movie night at the house. If you are a tightwad in general and she takes offense to it then she isnt the one for you.

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        Poppy May 23, 2019, 3:09 pm

        Cheapscape*

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 24, 2019, 10:04 am

        It is, in fact, cheapskate.

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  • avatar

    Nicole Pasalagua May 23, 2019, 12:03 pm

    I think, who ever invites, should pay. Usually it is men that pay more often because they’re courting. If there’s something that I want to do, I will pay for my boyfriend and I. And visa versa.

    And yeah, you sound cheap and mean. Don’t invite her to places if you don’t want to use money there.

    Reply Link
  • Copa

    Copa May 23, 2019, 12:29 pm

    Honestly, LW… you sound kinda insufferable. You are keeping track of every last penny you spend on one another and turning it into a scorecard. I’m not a fan of scorekeeping of any kind, but this is over dates like coffee and pizza, which makes you look unbelievably cheap and petty. I’m someone who likes to bring my own movie snacks from home, but I’d find it super off-putting if my date suggested I do this.

    If you plan to keep seeing her, speak up about how you’d like to handle paying for dates going forward. Sure, it might feel awkward, but you already know she has a mortgage and earns more, so it sounds like you’ve already broached the conversation of money (which, in general, can be a bit touchy to talk about).

    Lastly, I can think of quite a few free or inexpensive date ideas in my city that sound better/nicer than fast food dinners. Since you’re so frugal, it might serve you well to brainstorm some for your area. That way you won’t have to default to fast food on an early date.

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    Peggy May 23, 2019, 12:55 pm

    L.W.-Why did you assume ,because she mentioned going to a concert,that she expected you to pay and that she was trying to get a “free” night out? You could have expressed interest in the concert and asked if she was treating or suggested you each pay for your own tickets.
    I also agree that after 7 dates you should be able to have a simple,non-accusatory talk about covering expenses-taking turns etc. But having said that,as Wendy said-“You sound cheap A.F.”
    Also I have often found that people who are cheap with their money,are often cheap with their time and emotional investment- It is a kind of “skimp and lack” mindset.

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    Another Jen May 23, 2019, 12:56 pm

    Wendy– You are amazing! Damn. Just wow! Thank you.

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  • avatar

    cdobbs May 23, 2019, 1:47 pm

    i always thought it was a general rule that whoever does the asking out on the date pays?…i always try and keep things equal though and offer to pay for half regardless….i just don’t like feeling like a mooch who can’t pay my own way….the dangerous part is that if you were paying for most things she has probably come to expect that when you do stuff together you will pay for the majority of it…..maybe talk to her (if you want to continue dating) and see if you can split the costs going forward?

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      Kate May 23, 2019, 1:53 pm

      Thats not a general rule, it’s something women say because it sounds like equality, but in reality men do most of the asking. It also doesn’t really work in the age of internet dating when “who asks” for the first date isn’t relevant.

      Women shouldn’t just offer to pay half, they should actually take turns paying. And if one person really can’t do that, then they should talk about it and figure out how they’ll arrange the costs of dates going forward.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      Sapphire May 23, 2019, 2:18 pm

      I thought so too. That’s what I been taught by everyone around me. If you ask, you pay.

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    ele4phant May 23, 2019, 2:16 pm

    A lot going on here, but I think OP you need to use your words.

    Would you like her to start picking up the tab more often. Have you tried being direct? I do think men and women get in a natural pattern when it comes to paying, but I think its just more the inertia of old social customs pushing us forward and people not thinking critically. She may not be put off if you ask her directly to pay; it just may not have occurred to her. And if she does expect you to keep paying, well sounds like that’s not the dynamic you want in a relationship so better to find that out early that you aren’t suited for each other.

    She suggests an expensive concert? Say “Sounds fun! Can you pick up the tickets for this one?”

    Or even “Hey now that we’re getting more serious, can we start switching off planning and paying for dates?”

    You don’t have to be a hard ass for it, just be upfront.

    In all likelihood, she’ll go “Oh! Yeah, good idea.”

    And…don’t sneak in food into the movies. I get it’s outrageously expensive, but they don’t like that. Just buy from the theater or go without. You don’t HAVE to have candy when you go to a movie.

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  • avatar

    ele4phant May 23, 2019, 2:44 pm

    Yeah – I agree, most “young” people will say “whomever ask should pay.”

    But, it’s still expected most of the time that men will ask.

    I wasn’t quite sure what to make of this question, there was a lot going on, a lot of it rubbed me the wrong way.

    But…I also get his point. In a relationship in which both people are considered to be equals (both in a rights perspective but also financial terms), they should at some point switch of the responsibilities in the relationship – including both paying and planning.

    I think he just hasn’t been explicit with her. I think if he just says ‘Hey! Things are going great, I’d like to keep seeing you. I feel like we’re at the point where we can start switching off on planning and paying, do you feel the same?”

    You can’t get huffy or assume she isn’t willing to pay if he hasn’t asked her, and I don’t think he has.

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 23, 2019, 2:47 pm

      Whoops this was supposed to be a reply to Kate’s post above.

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    Amy May 23, 2019, 2:47 pm

    Is this guy’s surname Franzia? I’ve never seen this much wine out of a box.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      anonymousse May 23, 2019, 7:47 pm

      LOL

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    Logan May 23, 2019, 3:35 pm

    LW sounds like a cheap stake, if he ain’t happy with paying all the time? He should tell her straight that he prefers each foot their own bill and call it a day, she will deff think he’s cheap cuz he is, lol

    Paid off your mortgage already eh? This should mean you have a lot of money that can be spent, at least 1k a month.

    I try to pay for everything but my wife doesn’t like that and will pay for things and beat me to the debt machine, we actually have to race each other for this. If you alway thinks about money this money that? You will be miserable in your relationship.

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 23, 2019, 4:52 pm

      If you guys are married, isn’t it really both of your money? It’s all coming from the same pot, so what’s with this pretense of who “gets” to pay?

      Even if you maintain separate bank accounts, all the money is a common asset. If you decide to get divorced, I promise you the judge will not be like “Oh this is simple, this account has Logan’s name on it so he can just keep that and this other account has Logan’s Wife’s name on it, so she’ll just keep that and we’re done here.”

      Weird to me when married couples act like their financially separate. Even if you do keep things separate, they’re not really separate.

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        Logan May 28, 2019, 7:48 am

        @ ele4phant

        Yes we have separate accounts because we just want to have our own money and do what we want with it, I don’t watch what she does with her money and she doesn’t watch what I do. We trust that each will not spend money recklessly and will save up as much as we can. I don’t need to know how much money she has and how and what its spent on.

        We split all the bills 50/50 (i.e. mortgage, maintenance fee, TV/Internet, vacations..) that’s why dinner and dates are just whoever pays will pay.

        If we go shopping and she finds something she likes, I will try my hardest to purchase it for her, sometimes I win and most times I lose.

        Also my wife kept her last name as well, so we have separate accounts and different names. Woman have the rights to not to take the mans last name just because it has been taken traditionally for centuries, we live in different times now.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 28, 2019, 8:45 am

        I’m actually with Logan on this. I do not think couples need to combine all their finances into one big pool and call everything “ours.” I think it’s important for women to have their own accounts and money under their name, tbh. And I’m not sure you’re right that accounts Logan or his wife had prior to the marriage are seen as common assets.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 28, 2019, 8:47 am

        It’s kind of nice too, to be able to feel like you’re gifting and treating each other.

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      • avatar

        Logan May 29, 2019, 1:56 pm

        @ Kate

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      • avatar

        Logan May 29, 2019, 1:59 pm

        @ Kate

        not sure how I posted a blank message, was just going to say your right on the ball about feeling nice to gift and treat each other.

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  • Cleopatra_30

    Cleopatra_30 May 23, 2019, 3:42 pm

    Based on the dates you explained in your letter you guys are pretty even (in CDN dollars) for money spent. There are 3 dates unaccounted for, but if you didn’t mention them, they must have been insignificant money wise.

    Regardless of the math, you both messed up. You assumed you were paying for all the dates, and she also, maybe, didn’t offer enough to cover her half. She should offer just as much as you should speak up and determine dates and money put out moving forward. My BF and I have learned to split costs efficiently so we aren’t being left with a major dent in our own spending money. That is how communication and a healthy relationship works. If you have a budget and she does too, would be ideal to discuss it so your dates are reflective of that.

    But pizza, coffee, movie tickets and supermarket snacks are barely a dent in the wallet, unless you are seriously strapped for cash.

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 23, 2019, 5:07 pm

      Agreed.

      It’s okay to be cheap. You can spend the kind of money you want, and want the kind of financial parity you want in a relationship.

      The key is you have to communicate it. You can’t get all huffy that someone doesn’t read your mind. And also, if you have particular views about how money should be dealt with in a relationship, if you make your views clear and the other person isn’t into them, you really can’t get mad at them if they’re like “Nah, that’s not how I prefer to do things.”

      All you can either decide that that’s not a dealbreaker for you and you’ll go their way, or you can decide it is and end the relationship and go find someone better suited for you.

      But either way, it all starts with being clear and transparent and laying out your expectations. There’s probably a lady out there that is just as into being frugal and nickle and diming every single expenditure as you are. Maybe even this lady, you don’t know, ask her and see what happens.

      Reply Link
      • Cleopatra_30

        Cleopatra_30 May 23, 2019, 5:19 pm

        Exactly! How can she know this is an issue or at least address it and work towards creating a healthy dialogue if he is just stewing in his own pot.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 8:50 am

        Again… It kinda sorta baffles me that one has to go out of their way in 2019 to explain to an independent career woman… “Hey, I think it’s your turn to pick up the check — and by that I mean do more than hand it to me.”

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 24, 2019, 10:09 am

        I am baffled by people every day. Just…baffled that things that should be common sense that have to be explained, that don’t occur naturally to people. Baffled when people have radically different opinions from me about things that I assume are just straight up objective facts.

        We live in the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.

        How is it news TO YOU that this is a thing?

        The LW, and you, apparently believe women should just KNOW that it’s they need to pay equally (despite the fact it’s been laid out multiple times that what that means can vary in operation and is not actually clear and consistent, but whatevs). Even if just go ahead and take at face value that you are right and that’s the way it “should” be, it’s clearly not how it’s panning out in real life.

        There are lots of things that just *should* be, that people should just know and do, but guess what – that’s not how the world works. So the options are to sulk around and rage that the world isn’t working how we want, or be an adult and open our mouths and say “Hey, this bothers me. I’d like to do things this way, does that work for you?”

        It’s one of those, would you rather be right or would you rather fix it situations. I’d rather just use my words and fix what’s bothering me rather than silently stew in my self righteousness, but you and the LW do you.

        If he wants the norms around dating to well and fully change, well be part of that change. Set a clear expectation with the person you are dating that this is how you would prefer things to go, so they can carry that with them to people they date later. Let your relationship set the model for other couples. Communicate what you want and need, even if you think you shouldn’t have to.

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  • avatar

    LadyClegane May 23, 2019, 5:31 pm

    You know, I feel like guys like this can shrug off a lot of Wendy’s (salient) points by thinking, “what does abortion or whatever have to do with my question?” So let’s get a bit more precise. If you’re a man dating women, chances are you paid less just to get ready for your date. Your haircut cost less, you don’t have to wear makeup or get waxed, etc. Let’s get even more basic: your razor cost less, your shaving cream your shampoo your soap your lotion, everything cost less. Women’s products cost more (see pink tax). Then the woman you see performs additional mental and emotional labor in doing all the safety stuff (trying to keep you from knowing where she lives possibly, asking smart questions before the date, having an exit in the back of her mind, etc). I promise, every woman would trade all that for having to treat on dates.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      ktfran May 23, 2019, 5:51 pm

      I buy male razors because they cost less. It’s ridiculous that a three blade female razor costs more than a three blade male razor.

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        Allornone May 24, 2019, 9:20 am

        I buy my razors online with Dorco! Waaaaaay cheaper. And very good razors/blades.

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  • avatar

    Ange May 23, 2019, 5:44 pm

    I was having a conversation about work with a board member of an association I deal with at a function on Saturday night. Someone called out to me from the background and when I turned about the board member felt up my arse. I couldn’t do a thing about it, totally powerless. But yeah, carry on with all your talk of equality dude.

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  • avatar

    Hazel May 23, 2019, 6:28 pm

    should be 50-50, but if someone earns vastly more than the other and wants to go to the opera that’s on them. But be upfront, that you uphold and respect equality and that goes for dates too, don’t squeak about with pizza slice unmentioned resentment.

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    • avatar

      Ele4phant May 23, 2019, 7:48 pm

      There’s a couple ways to do 50-50 though – sometimes it’s going Dutch, sometimes it’s trading off, sometimes it some other way to track and basically stay even throughout the relationship.

      None of these approaches are “wrong”. He seems to have a very clear idea of how he thinks it should be, but he’s not telling her and is expecting her to just know how he would prefer to go about things, and is getting resentful that’s shes not magically figured it out. That’s not fair.

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    Kate May 23, 2019, 10:48 pm

    And the Emmy for best response in history goes to Wendy!

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    Kate May 24, 2019, 7:39 am

    There’s no question you’re cheap. I dated a cheap guy. I know what one looks like. Look, the issue here isn’t women’s equality with men on a broad scale. To be blunt, the issue is that you’re not a high-quality dating prospect, and what you can pull for dating isn’t particularly high-quality women. There it is. I can see that really frustrates you. The solution is to be a better person, and you’ll attract equals who are better people. Right now your equal is the type of woman who stands in a drinks line and doesn’t buy you a beer.

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    • avatar

      Kate May 24, 2019, 7:45 am

      Seriously. If you want to attract a woman who treats you to nice meals and thinks about you and buys you little thoughtful gifts, you really need to be bringing more to the table.

      Reply Link
      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 8:43 am

        Honestly? I remain confused that wanting your partner to also occasionally do nice things for you as well (and not only expect to receive them) apparently will only happen if — what? You are somehow a much better catch than they are? Okay, whatever.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 24, 2019, 8:51 am

        If you’re a kind and generous and loving person, you will attract higher quality prospects and not have to settle for people who wouldn’t buy you a beer, yeah.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 24, 2019, 8:54 am

        Well, also with decent self-esteem and attitude.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 9:00 am

        Oh please… 🙄
        .
        Yeah, right. That’s about as realistic and profound as telling college graduates to do what they love and the money will follow. In other words, nice fantasy. Yes, it sounds very nice. But it’s still empty fucking bullshit.
        .
        You can do all that and attract total cads. Hell, every other letter here in Forums proves that. Turn this around and every woman dating a jerk has somehow brought this on themselves? By not being better people? I think not. Talk about blaming the victim…

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      • avatar

        Kate May 24, 2019, 9:03 am

        Please, he’s not a victim, he can either talk to her or break up. This is not abuse.

        He’s a cheap guy with a bad attitude and no quality woman is going to put up with his shit. He’s probably boring too. He sounds boring. So yeah, this is who he attracts.

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  • avatar

    Allornone May 24, 2019, 9:11 am

    Seriously? Look, you’re right that this girl should offer. But you really think all girls are like that? That we all just feel entitled? When my boyfriend and I started dating, we naturally assumed an alternate pay/ split the bill scenario. When we moved in together (are finances are still separate), we naturally fell into a pattern of who paid for what (I make more than him, so I pay for all groceries and our renter’s insurance, he pays the electric bill and any streaming services we have). We never even discussed it; it just happened. Do you really think I’m unusual? Because I’m not. In every couple I know, that’s the norm. Has it occured to you that maybe, just maybe, it’s not every girl, just the ones you (and your friends, who probably have some things in common) are attracted to? Maybe there’s a deeper issue here.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      Allornone May 24, 2019, 9:13 am

      And oh yeah, just talk to the woman about it already. Yes, yes, you shouldn’t have to, but there’s a lot in life we all shouldn’t have to do. If you want to continue dating her, and live a happy, resent-free life, just ask for what you effing want.

      Reply Link
    • bittergaymark

      Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 9:17 am

      I wonder how old the LW is. The older he — and the women he dates — are… the more typical his story may be, I suspect.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 24, 2019, 9:24 am

        I think millennial. I’m with you that older women may be more likely to expect guys to pay (maybe), but guys of those ages are also going to be less likely to have a problem with it. This guy sounds 28-35.

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      • avatar

        Allornone May 24, 2019, 9:28 am

        That’s a fair point. A couple that is slightly older will have a greater chance of falling into the more traditional, old-school norms. But again, that’s why he should just ask. It’s absolutely true that she should’ve stepped up on her own, and I can see him being annoyed by that, but simple communication could’ve prevented that annoyance from turning into this full-blown resentment. Eh, I just don’t really like either of them.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 9:34 am

        I dunno. That’s awfully young to have paid off his mortgage in full…

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      • avatar

        LisforLeslie May 24, 2019, 9:38 am

        I assumed millenial because as a middle aged person I can not conceive of a date that involves fast food.

        It sounds snobby, and maybe it is, but I would not take a date to McDonalds. Olive Garden maybe, but not McDonalds.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 9:42 am

        Again. SHE took HIM out for fastfood… enough harping on the poor guy for her apparent tackiness and bad taste. I know reading is hard, but…
        😉

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 10:07 am

        It doesn’t matter who took whom – a fast food date is not something that a typical middle-age couple would participate in. It reflect a younger set – mid-millennials. It’s unusual for, say, a 30-year-old to have paid off his mortgage, but for all we know he got help with that or he lives in a super cheap home/trailer (which would, you know, fit what we know about him).

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 10:18 am

        To me he mentioned the fast food simply because he had to dig real deep for an example of her paying for fucking anything.
        .
        All of you harping on this one detail is strange to me as — really — if a fast food date is as bad or insignificant as you all claim, why then it only strengthens his argument. She is cheap and tacky. He takes her out for sit down dinners — she gallantly springs for Taco Hell. She literally brings nothing to the table. Instead, she insists on drive-thru.
        .
        🙄

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 10:27 am

        I don’t think anyone is disputing that the woman is cheap. The problem is that the LW acts like he’s entitled to more. Because why? Because the world is fair? Because he’s a white, straight guy and is entitled to whatever he wants? Because men and women are equal now (HA HA) and so that means women need to step up and quit acting like helpless little girls and start pulling their weight if they want great guys like him to spend time with them?

        And you’re using “literally” wrong. She hasn’t literally brought nothing to the table. I mean, if we want to just look at money spent, we know she’s at least bought the LW a drink, a fast food meal, snacks for the movie. Is that a lot. No. But it’s not “literally nothing” and it doesn’t sound like *that* much less than what we know the LW has paid for (coffee, some pizza, two movie tickets, and the equivalent of an Applebees dinner). Honestly, the sound pretty well-matched and I hope they do manage to work out what is, frankly, a really minor issue that probably could have been worked out several dates ago if the LW would have opened his mouth and used his words.

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 24, 2019, 10:22 am

        Okay, look, the dude is objectively cheap. If you are a well-off adult (with a self-purported good job and paid off mortgage), you don’t suggest sneaking in candy and popcorn into a movie theater if you don’t have a penchant for being thrifty.

        Personally, I don’t actually think that’s a bad trait, to be frugal. Not everyone takes that approach to finances so you won’t be a good match for everyone, but I don’t think that it’s inherently bad.

        Quite frankly, she may be just as cheap, and they could be a match made in heaven if he just *talked* to her about how he was feeling and how he wants to start handling paying for things. She may be more than happy to get on board.

        Or she won’t, and they can stop dating and this misery can end for him. Perhaps the loss of this relationship will get her to reconsider her stance on splitting the costs of dates for later down the road, and he can be part of the change in shifting social norms.

        I know you don’t think he should *have* to say anything, but there are lots of things we shouldn’t have to do that we do. It’s called being an adult.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 10:30 am

        Full disclosure: I sneak in snacks from the supermarket into the movie theater. But I would never ask a date – especially one I’ve only just started seeing – to do it for me. And I probably wouldn’t do it myself on an early date for fear of looking like the frugal person I am. I’d wait like 2-3 months before surprising that little aspect of myself on a new boyfriend-type person.

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 24, 2019, 10:31 am

        Also – this may be because I live in a very expensive city, but $45 for a dinner for two? That may be a few steps up from fast food, but it’s not THAT nice of a date. Can you even get drinks with that? You couldn’t here.

        Honestly Mark, you live in LA, where would you go to get a meal for two for $45? Wouldn’t exactly be wining and dining someone.

        He’s cheap too. Which again, I don’t think that’s pejorative, he and she might a great match in this regard.

        He just needs to talk with her to get on the same page.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 1:53 pm

        And I am pretty sure, based on the LW’s spelling and IP address that $45 in his currency is equivalent to about 32 US dollars…

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 24, 2019, 10:36 am

        Wendy –

        I do not think it’s a bad thing, to be cheap or to bring candy into the movie theater (I mean, I don’t, and I wouldn’t do it if a date asked me to – but also, no real judgement. I’d also say I am cheap myself and just straight up refuse to go to the movies because the whole experience is WAY too expensive).

        I don’t think it’s a bad thing overall to be frugal. No one ever has to spend more than they want to, even if they are capable of spending more.

        But I do find it HILARIOUS that BGM keeps insisting she’s so cheap and keeps overlooking all the evidence that the LW is too.

        Which again…is FINE. Own it, in fact.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 12:47 pm

        Is he white? Where is that in the letter?
        .
        PS — I was being glib with the word literally because it was a great closing line. I couldn’t resist that table pun.
        .
        At any rate — We’ve all been sidetracked by this cheap nonsense. My fault. I should have said selfish. I don’t judge people by how much money they spend on dates. I do judge them for selfishly rarely reciprocating and only doing so in the cheapish way possible. Selfish. Lying and pretending you “forgot” to get them a drink? Selfish. Very.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 24, 2019, 1:51 pm

        We don’t need him
        Yo explicitly say he’s a white dude to know he’s a white dude. It’s so obvious.

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 24, 2019, 1:17 pm

        Where in the letter does it say he is white? What?

        My final take is, we don’t know enough here to assign motives to her behavior. We know his interpretation, it may or may not be correct. I think there are far more people that are oblivious than there are outright selfish. I mean I guess the outcome is the same, but it’s a much different conversation when someone is inadvertently a little wrapped up in their own world than when they are outright trying to grift off of you.

        I always err on giving people the benefit of the doubt. Give someone a gentle “Hey, I would prefer this, can we do that?” and see what happens. Most of the time its “Oh! Of course! Sorry about that.”

        Why needlessly stew when you haven’t even given someone the opportunity to make it right? It’s silly and just such a waste of time and energy.

        And even if she’s selfish – well than call her on it. Point it out. Assert your boundaries. Again, I would start keeping it soft and phrase it in a way that makes it seem like – oh of course you just didn’t realize this but could we X? And then go from there. Usually a little (light) shaming is enough to correct it. And if its not, well then you unambiguously know where they stand, and you can cut bait.

        Just silently huffing because you shouldn’t “have” to do something, what a ridiculous waste of time. That’s life, stand up for yourself, stop being silently pissy that the world isn’t perfect. He’s spent DAYS being pissed off about this, when he could’ve spent 30 seconds second just SAYING something and being done with it. It’s absurd.

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 24, 2019, 1:25 pm

        I think if you’re writing into an advice column with a scorecard of who paid for what coffee and which fast food meal or pizza slice, you must be cheap.

        And based on the fact that he *cannot* use his big boy words, I could even picture someone this passive just paying at each opportunity because he doesn’t want to appear so cheap.

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 24, 2019, 2:04 pm

        Oh…I’m going to figure out that exchange rate…

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      • avatar

        Anonymous May 24, 2019, 2:27 pm

        Also this seems snitty at this point, but you literally didn’t have to use the word literally for your table pun. Would’ve been just as pithy had you said:

        “She brings nothing to the table. Instead, she insists on drive-thru.”

        But nice try on the CYA.

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  • avatar

    LisforLeslie May 24, 2019, 9:41 am

    @BGM – ever watch Fixer Upper? There are homes that are $100K out there. If you net $60K a year and behave extremely frugally, it would totally be possible to pay that off in a few years.

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    • bittergaymark

      Bittergaymark May 24, 2019, 9:48 am

      Eh… So much of those shows are sketchy fake and hilariously deceptive. Talk to any realtor or contractor.

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        LisforLeslie May 29, 2019, 7:19 am

        Eh, I’ve seen some well kept but never refurbished places in Florida for under $100 K. You know, kitchens straight out of 1986. I liken the home shows to cooking shows where they chop the ingredients and pull out a perfectly cooked item from the oven. These guys have contractors that show up 5 days a week and multiple trades arriving at the same time. That rarely happens in real life.

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  • avatar

    PDX816 May 24, 2019, 12:40 pm

    LW – you kind of sound like an insufferable tool. I hope you do dump this woman so she doesn’t need to deal with you anymore.

    For the record, your letter and follow up comments scream of toxic misogyny. Gross.

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  • avatar

    LW May 25, 2019, 12:01 am

    Wendy.
    We’ll agree to disagree…

    I could tell you about the time i went out with a doctor. First date . After a meal and drinks, she didn’t even take out her purse to contribute to the bill. To offer something….That’s right. I paid for the whole lot! And i was earning half of what she was. Don’t get me started… i could go on and on….

    The equality i was talking about was women work and even earn more money
    and have credit cards and cash. It’s not like it was a long time ago where women didn’t work and stayed at home and were housewives. And when men had to pay for everything.

    The fast food meal wasn’t planned. It was hanging around the mall so we decided to grab a quick meal. What’s so cheap about that?

    I’m sure most men would agree with most of my letter and comments. I know most of my friends do.

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    • Dear Wendy

      Dear Wendy May 25, 2019, 3:09 am

      But most women are not like the woman you’re seeing. Literally, no woman I’m friends would behave this way when single. The problem is that you’re convinced that every woman is like this and that the problem isn’t, as Kate suggested, that you’re doing something (being cheap yourself, for one thing) to attract these kind of lower-quality women. You seem to think we’re a monolith (Example: you say you work as hard as “any woman,” as if we all work at the same level), and we aren’t. That’s what sounds so misogynistic: your (false) blanket statements about women based only on your own slim dating experience and apparently that of your friends, who are probably a lot like you and,?similarly, attracting the same caliber women.

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    • avatar

      Kate May 25, 2019, 6:28 am

      Your friends are probably kind of low quality guys too. And I mean, great that men agree with you, but that’s not going to help you find a good relationship with a good woman. You need to change something you’re doing.

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    • avatar

      anonymousse May 25, 2019, 8:38 am

      Oh are so obsessed with who earns what and who pays what. It’s really no surprises the women you date don’t pay. Like attracts like.

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    • avatar

      Ele4phant May 25, 2019, 12:05 pm

      I don’t know what you want here.

      You want women – all women – to automatically know and operate ok the standards you want, well okay that’s a nice thought but clearly that’s not how the world is working.

      So you’re just going to feel pissy about it and rant anonymously online to…I don’t know, feel better or self-righteous about things? I mean okay, but that’s not going to fix anything.

      Just stand up for yourself and speak up. Women, as has been mentioned, are not a monolith.

      If you ask for what you want some will balk, but that’s okay you don’t want to date them after all, now you know.

      Some will be more than happy to oblige, and you can happily continue dating them without this irritation.

      While women aren’t a monolith, but neither are men. I know you and your friends are all on the same page, but you actually don’t represent all men.

      I’ve dated men that INSISTED they wanted to “treat me like a princess” and pay for everything. That was gross and I didn’t like it, but point is women are probably out there dating men who set the expectation that they will pay, so barring you saying anything, they assume the same when they date you.

      It’s not necessarily that they are trying to gold dig off of you, but they are operating off one assumption and you another and if you don’t use your words to speak up and correct that assumption, it won’t magically change on its own.

      This honestly isn’t hard – just ask for what you want and stop complaining that people can’t read your mind or automatically behave how you think they should.

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    • Copa

      Copa May 26, 2019, 5:18 pm

      Why did you even write in? In your letter you said you think you’re right. Then you received these responses and now you’re saying you’ll agree to disagree.

      Your fixation on income is really weird. Maybe your doctor date has a high income. But maybe she’s in debt from getting that great degree. You need to stop assuming you know what someone earns, or what that income allows them to afford, or that everyone operates as you do.

      And yeah, I agree that most women (at least the ones I know and am friends with, many of whom are or recently were in the dating world) would behave the way the women you date seem to.

      Also, unless you’re, like, 17, your dates shouldn’t be “hanging around the mall.” Fun dates that aren’t at a mall food court don’t have to cost a lot!

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    brise May 25, 2019, 7:34 am

    LW: on a first date, why do you invite a woman at a restaurant? How about having a drink? The norm is that the man invites the woman at the first date (according to what I know where I live). Thus: the drink, no dinner. The woman might ask the question: shall we share? but most men won’t accept to share at the first date. There is a code!
    Then, it is simple: the dates costs are shared. Either each pays for their own expenses, or they go dutch, or they alternate. But YOU should propose the sharing system. Men are usually in charge for the first dates : you have to give information about what you want. Some men want to pay, some expect to share: it is your take. Most women will want to share too, because they will fear to owe, to create false expectations in return.
    In general, it is very passive aggressive to expect the other to offer what YOU want: it is your job to ask for what you want. It makes the communication much simpler. And dating, having a successful relationship, is about communication.
    For example, why do you post in a column to state opinions which are vastly cliche and don’t listen to the answers? what is the point ? It is an exchange, not a war of static rigid opinions.

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  • avatar

    anonymousse May 25, 2019, 8:45 am

    I’m not surprised your friends supposedly agree with you. That’s what friends do! And also, considering what a sexist jerk you are, I wouldn’t be surprised that they are, too. You don’t respect women, and that’s why women don’t respect you.

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  • avatar

    LW May 25, 2019, 9:45 pm

    Wendy and readers,
    According to the comments, i’m cheap. Everone is entitled to their opinion
    I’d describe myself as frugal.

    Do you think the woman i’m dating is cheap?

    If so, is this trivial? Can this be fixed?

    Is this a sign of incompatability?

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 25, 2019, 10:21 pm

      I do think you’re frugal.

      In the abstract, I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

      She may also be frugal, I’m not sure.

      I don’t think it’s reasonable in a long term relationship to switch of planning and paying for dates.

      I do think it’s unreasonable that you keep beating this dead horse instead of…just telling her you’d like to start switching off paying.

      This isn’t really a whose right/whose wrong thing; it’s a you need to just express yourself already thing. To her, not to us.

      Have you talked to her yet? Do that.

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    • avatar

      anonymousse May 25, 2019, 11:41 pm

      No, I don’t think she is cheap. Many women are taught that men should/generally do pay these costs. Not all. But a lot of women are brought up that way, or through social interactions learn to behave that way. Also after you date a man or two who takes these things super personally, and will not let a woman pay- you don’t offer. It doesn’t matter what century this is, or how women are supposedly equal-( which is not true.)

      I am a veryliberal woman who grew up ina very liberal area of the US and most of the men I have ever dated have insisted on paying. I can tell you all of the guys I ever dated were better off financially, than I was. Maybe that’s true for you considering you already have an entire house paid off. What’s a piece of pizza- if you already have no mortgage to pay?

      I can guarantee all of the dudes I have ever dated would have spoken up if they felt they were being taken advantage of. That’s your issue- you don’t seem able to communicate your real feelings.

      You need to work on that.

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    • avatar

      Kate May 26, 2019, 6:47 am

      I think you’re cheap. Like, my auntie is frugal, and that did work out well for her in the end, because even though she never worked a job that paid more than $30k, she ended up with $500k in retirement savings, and that plus a grant she applied for is paying for her to stay in an excellent nursing facility now that she needs care. But she’s also super generous, and always gave really nice gifts at Christmas and birthdays. She was frugal for herself, but never came across stingy and mean like you do.

      In the context of, like, a straight guy to date, you’re cheap. Own it. You’ll retire well. You paid off your mortgage. Be confident about it. Yeah, I’m a cheap guy, look where it got me.

      I can’t tell if she’s cheap or if she’s thoughtless or if she was raised and conditioned to think the man should pay.

      For like the 50th time on this thread, you two might actually be compatible and have similar values when it comes to money. But to find out, you have to talk about it. Why are you so scared to do that?

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 26, 2019, 7:13 am

        Here’s the difference between being cheap and frugal:

        Frugal is when you take your date out for pizza early on in the courting process (no problem with that!).
        Cheap is when you get pissed off that your date didn’t offer to pay for the pizza since you bought the coffee on your last date. (It’s pizza! It’s already so inexpensive to begin with. To get your panties in a wad that you’re paying for the entirety of it is cheap).

        Frugal is when you sneak in some supermarket candy into the movie theater and bust it out for your date once you’re seated, maybe after you bought some popcorn. Like a, “Hey, if you like candy, too, I brought these M&Ms for us to share.”

        Cheap is when you ask your date to pick up the candy at the supermarket (Which she does) and then get mad that she didn’t buy the tickets too because you bought her a $10 dinner the week before.

        You’re cheap. Own it. It’s not an attractive quality to most women, just as the thoughtlessness – and potential cheapness – your date has exhibited is not an attractive quality to you. If this is the best either of you can behave, each of you may be the best either of you can hope for. But! As we’ve said ad nauseam, if you would jus communicate with her, some of what you’re finding unappealing could be improved. And, if not, you can move on and try again with someone else.

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      Ele4phant May 26, 2019, 4:51 pm

      Personally, I would find this nickel and diming obnoxious.

      While you may have put in more thus far, sounds like she’s also paid for a number of things and you guys haven’t been out THAT often, so honestly you can’t be THAT far ahead. If I knew someone I had just started seeing was tallying up and weighing up the EXACT amounts we’d each paid – I’d be like dude, chill out. In a long relationship things generally come out on the wash, don’t get your panties in a twist if we’re off by a twenty, thirty dollars.

      But I’m not every woman – some women may be more than happy to operate this way, including this woman. Talk to her and you’ll find out where she stands.

      I do highly recommend you talk to her about starting to switch off paying (and planning); but I am a little worried that even if you start doing this you will resent it if she picks cheaper dates than you choose when it’s your turn. Just because you choose a certain price point doesn’t mean she’s obligated to do the same. If you find yourself always planning the more expensive dates – just plan less expensive dates. Don’t get mad at her for spending less, just spend less yourself.

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      • avatar

        LW May 26, 2019, 7:19 pm

        A couple of corrections

        Cheap is when you ask your date to pick up the candy at the supermarket (Which she does) and then get mad that she didn’t buy the tickets too because you bought her a $10 dinner the week before.

        CORRECTION: I got mad because i bought the movie tickets and she was at the bar buying a drink and never offered to buy me a drink. (she eventually offered). I also paid for coffees later.

        CORRECTION: the previous week, i paid $45 for dinner, NOT $10. She also said after the dinner that she will pay next time…
        That never happened .Lol The next time we went to dinner ,she wanted us to pay for our own meal .

        I might sound cheap by asking my date to pick up candy from the supermarket, but i was doing her a favor. I didn’t want her to buy this at the movies. Too expensive!

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        Ele4phant May 26, 2019, 8:11 pm

        Well sounds like you’ve got it all figured out then – not sure what you need us for.

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        anonymousse May 26, 2019, 9:04 pm

        It’s just sad that every move she makes, you attribute negative intent. You write like you loath her. So stop dating her! Maybe she got to the bar, realized she didn’t know what you’d like, so she ordered hers and went back and got you one. Or she just forgot. Is that really such a huge deal? People forget things sometimes.

        Use your words like a big boy.

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 26, 2019, 9:06 pm

        Paying for a $45 meal does not make you generous. That’s not an expensive meal for two.

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      • avatar

        Anonymous May 26, 2019, 9:54 pm

        Also Jesus on the drink thing.

        She should have ordered you a drink upfront (I guess, although how would she know what you would’ve wanted or if you wanted one at all – is this another thing you assume she should just “know”?), BUT it sounds like she realized, immediately, unprompted, that she forgot you one and offered to go back to the bar. But you were already in some piss ass mood that she isn’t perfect and tried to make a point about it (which I’m sure went over her head) and refused her offer.

        It also sounds like you arrived separately, and when you got there she was already at the bar? So yeah, maybe she didn’t see you or was halfway through ordering and it didn’t occur to her to tack on a second drink. But she DID offer unprompted to go get you a drink.

        If you want her to get you a drink, ask her to get you a drink. You want her to pay for the whole dinner, ask her to pay for the whole dinner. If she suggests an expensive concert and you’d go if she’s paying, tell her you’d go if she treats.

        This is not hard. JUST…TELL…HER…WHAT…YOU…WANT…FROM…HER.

        You clearly have made up your mind here about how you are right and we (her, this community, all women) are all wrong, so I don’t know what you’re still doing here.

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  • avatar

    Fyodor May 26, 2019, 3:03 pm

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  • avatar

    LW May 26, 2019, 9:11 pm

    Never said a $45 meal was generous or not. I was correcting Wendy.

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    • Dear Wendy

      Dear Wendy May 26, 2019, 9:27 pm

      Oh, god, seriously? And wasn’t half if that $45 dinner yours?

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  • avatar

    LW May 27, 2019, 3:21 am

    1st dinner – i paid $45 for both us.

    2nd dinner – She paid for hers $20 and she wouldn’t pay for mine which was only $10.

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    • avatar

      Kate May 27, 2019, 4:39 am

      Irrelevant. Talk. To. Her.

      Or, you know, piss or get off the pot. You know what will get you nowhere? Complaining endlessly about women in general on an advice site and to your equally clueless friends. You need to have a conversation with one particular woman, or just stop dating her.

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    • Skyblossom

      Skyblossom May 27, 2019, 8:11 am

      Does her not paying yours on the second date mean you asked and she said no or she just paid for hers without mentioning yours?

      Where I live $45 for two people is a good dinner. I don’t think it is fair to act like everyone lives in a large city where everything is much more expensive. Where costs are lower incomes are lower so that cheaper meal still costs a significant amount to the person buying it.

      If she started paying for her own meals on the second date I think you were getting what you wanted. I get that it feels like she values her money more highly than yours. Does it feel like hers is good for her and yours is good for both of you?

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 27, 2019, 9:45 am

        Based in spelling and IP address, I think the Lw lives in a country where $45 is equivalent to 32 US dollars. Any way you cut it, we’re not talking about a fancy meal here.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 27, 2019, 10:12 am

        Cheesecake Factory or Olive Garden would be like twice that much. That sounds like a Greek diner or something.

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      • avatar

        LW May 28, 2019, 12:22 am

        There were other dates between the first and second dinner dates……On the second dinner date, she just said to pay for our own meals, which i don’t mind. I did find it surprising though.

        Does it feel like hers is good for her and yours is good for both of you? ……. Maybe but not sure

        Let’s see what happens next time we go to dinner and i propose this time, that we pay for our own meals.

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        ele4phant May 28, 2019, 12:47 am

        “Let’s see what happens next time we go to dinner and i propose this time, that we pay for our own meals.”

        MY GOD. How about instead of waiting and seeing (and then getting mad when it doesn’t play out the way you have in your head) YOU JUST SAY SOMETHING TO HER BEFORE YOUR NEXT DATE.

        Just say – hey rather than each of us paying our own way, how about we take turns paying? I paid last time, would you mind picking up the next date?

        Unless you’re okay just paying separately, in which case, great, keep doing that. But if you’re okay with it, then I’m not even sure what your problem is.

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    • avatar

      Surfgirl June 1, 2019, 11:52 am

      I actually just had my first date with this guy two night ago. I suggest to meet up at a coffee shop because I didn’t want him to spend too much money in case he wants to pay. When we meet up, he suggest to have ramen. So we had dinner but I ask the waitress to split the check because I wanted to pay for my own food which was 15 dollar.( tips included) I paid for my own dinner then we went to another restaurant but I only ordered coffee and he ordered beer. After we finished our drinks, I pulled out my credit card to pay for my coffee ( 2 dollars) He pulled out his credit card to pay for his own beer. He didn’t offer to pay for my coffee and I was quite turn off by it. Then we walked to his car and he just told me my car is here and I will text you. That’s it. Didn’t walk me to my car given it was dark. I deleted his number right away. I can’t date a guy who won’t even wanna get me a cup of coffee.:(

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      • avatar

        Ele4phant June 1, 2019, 12:10 pm

        I would’ve deleted his number because he didn’t walk you to his car when it was dark.

        The coffee – I mean eh it’s two dollars. You had already set the expectation that you would pay for yourself by taking care of your own dinner – he may have just assumed you wanted to pay your own way the whole night. That’s why it’s good to talk about these things explicitly so no one assumes wrong and the other resents them for not realizing what you wanted.

        But come on, don’t leave a woman to walk along in the dark.

        It’s not about being a gentlemen – unfortunately it can be dangerous to be a woman walking around at night by yourself.

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  • Skyblossom

    Skyblossom May 27, 2019, 8:19 am

    Just yesterday, the mom of one of my daughter’s friends, told us how much she liked her daughter’s boyfriend because he treats her like a princess. This is a working mom who contributes to her family income and helps support the family. She expects her daughter to be treated like a princess. This is alive and well today. The daughter will be attending college in the fall and they expect that she will get a degree and make a good income and at some point support herself and a family. In the meantime, they love having a boyfriend treat her like a princess. This type of expectation is very much alive and well today.

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    • bittergaymark

      Bittergaymark May 27, 2019, 9:21 pm

      Alive. And, well… Fucking gross.

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      • avatar

        ele4phant May 27, 2019, 9:46 pm

        Agreed, it’s totally gross.

        But the point is, while you, the LW, and his friends have all evolved and firmly believe in gender equality and that is should be a given that women pay equally (however that should be ope rationalized), a good number of men still think this way.

        So women, out in the dating world, are still encountering these attitudes and expectations. Despite it being 2019, attitudes about who should pay and when are not universal.

        So if LW would like to switch off paying every other date, he should tell women, just to make it clear what *his* personal expectations are, lest they assume he’s like the last caveman they dated who insisted it was his job to treat her like a princess.

        Just communicate your expectations, even if you shouldn’t “have” to.

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      • Skyblossom

        Skyblossom May 28, 2019, 2:46 pm

        It’s not just men thinking this way. This is a mom and daughter thinking this way. She also said he’s 24, dating her daughter who is 18, and she doesn’t mind the age difference because he treats her like a princess. I found the whole thing disturbing. What guy who is 24 really wants to go to a high school prom. They had the prom pictures up for everyone to see. The mom thinks this guy is wonderful.

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        ele4phant May 28, 2019, 3:42 pm

        Totally.

        My main point is the LW/BGM are all like “It’s 2019, this should just be common knowledge and everyone should just feel this way by now, and it’s unreasonable that I should have to say something.”

        And it’s like, erm, its not the common sentiment; there are still a lot of conflicting attitudes out there. It is not reasonable to assume every adult is on the same page, and it’s not unreasonable to expect you to speak your mind and clarify what you want.

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        Kate May 28, 2019, 3:46 pm

        Guys perpetuate this by bragging that they treat women like princesses.

        Also, there are guys like the LW who see this attitude as a widespread problem with women but *dont speak up*, hence contributing to the problem by continuing to pay for women and letting them get away with not paying.

        And then fathers raising their daughters this way…

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      • Skyblossom

        Skyblossom May 28, 2019, 4:10 pm

        I think the boyfriend was raised the same way. A guy treats a girl like a princess if he’s a good guy.

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  • avatar

    Brise romande May 27, 2019, 8:24 am

    What I see is he lets her lead. He should have recalled her it was her time to pay. But she spoke and said she would pay for herself. This guy lacks leadership.

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  • avatar

    Allornone May 27, 2019, 3:56 pm

    Honestly? I think you’re both cheap. But, that doesn’t really matter. Ultimately, there’s nothing really wrong with cheap/frugal. What does matter is that you want something from your relationship that you’re not getting, something that’s easy to ask for. So, whether you should have to or not, JUST ASK FOR IT. All will be well afterwards.

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    • avatar

      ron May 27, 2019, 5:26 pm

      All probably won’t be well afterwards, but it at least won’t be any worse than it is now and you will know exactly where your relationship stands.

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  • Kate B.

    Kate B. May 28, 2019, 9:51 am

    OK, I’ve been seething about this all weekend. First, don’t assume that just because a woman is a doctor or makes a certain amount of money, you know how much disposable income she has. I make what is considered a very good salary in most areas of the country. But I live in a very expensive area, and I have a mortgage which I pay solely on my own, so I don’t have a lot of money in the bank. By your standards, that means I should be able to equally afford something that you can, but I’ll bet that’s not true. Don’t make assumptions. Second, I generally feel that whoever plans the date pays for the date. And, yeah, I do expect the man to pay on the first date. Why? Because a man who is stingy with his money is often stingy in other ways as well. I don’t want him to go into debt, but he is responsible for knowing what his limits are and for planning accordingly. As an example, I visited Seattle this weekend and met up with a male friend whom I haven’t seen in a while. When we were talking about the visit, he suggested we go to brunch. He paid for it. Later on, we ended up at a coffee shop, where we each paid for our own. It happened organically, as typically happens when two people are comfortable with each other. But that takes time. Until then, use your words and ask for what you want. Lastly, on the way to the airport, I had to carry my 25-pound suitcase down some stairs with an injured arm because the elevator wasn’t working and there was no escalator. This was done in full view of numerous men. It would have been great if one of them had offered to help me, but none did. Does that mean they’re horrible men? No. If I had been with someone who offered to help on his own, yes, he would be labeled a Very Nice Man and gotten extra brownie points. But, if he didn’t, I WOULD HAVE ASKED HIM TO. Use your words. Behavior can change, but only if the person knows there is a need.

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    • avatar

      LW May 28, 2019, 5:36 pm

      Thanks Kate!

      “I generally feel that whoever plans the date pays for the date”

      Not everyone thinks like this. Taking it turns or splitting the bill is the way to go regardless who plans the date.

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      • avatar

        Ange May 28, 2019, 5:48 pm

        If only there was some magical way you could express what you were thinking to someone so they understood your opinion and intentions. What a world it would be…

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      • Kate B.

        Kate B. May 28, 2019, 8:28 pm

        But the only way to know what a person thinks is to ask them. I’m not sure what you’re thanking me for. I’m not on your side. You sound a lot like an ex-boyfriend of mine. Notice the “ex”.

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        anonymousse May 28, 2019, 8:42 pm

        Says the guy who can’t use his words. I guess paying “every time” (which, from what you wrote isn’t even true) is really the price you pay when you can’t communicate what you actually want.

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      • avatar

        Ele4phant May 28, 2019, 9:06 pm

        “Not everyone thinks like this”.

        I feel like I’m in crazy town. This is what everyone has been saying the entire time. There is actually no one culturally accepted standard when it comes to dating and paying, you cannot make assumptions about whether or not the other person is naturally on the same page as you.

        You have to explicitly tell them what you think, so they can know and change in case think differently. With your words. To the person you are dating. Not to a bunch of other anonymous strangers.

        JFC.

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  • avatar

    Danielle May 28, 2019, 12:38 pm

    That response was the most satisfying read I’ve had in a long, long time

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  • avatar

    MP May 28, 2019, 5:19 pm

    Queer millennial lady here and I usually go by the rule of ‘whoever invites to the date and chooses the place pays for the date’ in the early stages of dating. Otherwise I opt to go Dutch. Paying for dinner etc. should be treated as a nice gesture and shouldn’t be an expectation based on gender IMO. For real though LW I’d just be upfront and tell her ‘can you get this next round’ or ‘can you pay for dinner this time’. Communication is important and 7 dates is pretty deep for you to not have told her how you feel about paying.

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 28, 2019, 5:54 pm

      As a CIS-gender straight lady, I apologize if I’m speaking out of turn, but I would imagine one of the benefits of dating when you are queer is that you aren’t beholden to a lot of the patriarchal bullshit that is still VERY much present.

      Like yes, the idea that whoever does the inviting does the paying is a good idea, and one that I think most millennials would agree with at face value. HOWEVER, who is usually expected to do the asking in straight relationships? Well men are. So by default, they’re usually the ones paying. Straight women that ask men out are branded (still!) as desperate, or intimidating, or promiscuous, whatever. Men still want to “be the pursuers”. They find it “emasuclating” when women do the asking. Straight women are still conditioned to be deferential and wait. It’s f*ed up, but it’s still happening.

      There are plenty of straight men and women, liberal progressive people that believe in gender equality, but that have been raised with all that hetero-normative bullsh*t about how men are supposed to treat women, and really, sometimes you don’t even know you’re carrying around these kinds of attitudes and expectations until it gets pointed out. It’s way easier to cruise along to societal expectations. Changing them takes a lot of explicit conversation and check-ins.

      So…yes, he’s got to bring it up. He’s got to talk about it with her, he can’t assume she just *knows* what he thinks she should know.

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      • avatar

        MP May 28, 2019, 7:47 pm

        “one of the benefits of dating when you are queer is that you aren’t beholden to a lot of the patriarchal bullshit that is still VERY much present.”

        FOR SURE. I identify as pansexual and have mostly dated straight men and other bi/pan women with a few bi men sprinkled in. My now husband is bisexual (and I asked him out first, hahah).

        Even in my relationships with queer men I never ever had to think about dumb shit like ‘I have to wait for him to text because he’s the guy’ or ‘I can’t ask him out because the men should do the asking’ or ‘I have to play coy and pretend I’m not interested in him because that’s what ladies do’ etc. because the queer folks I dated never played into bizarre dating games and were upfront with what they wanted from me be it a hookup or serious relationship.

        I feel like I could also talk about things more candidly with queer folk vs straight men with regards to money and stuff too. Meanwhile a lot of my straight girlfriends are afraid to emasculate or terrify the straight guys they’re dating if they dare bring up money or abstractly talk about wanting marriage/babies one day. Oh and the whole ‘men and women can’t be friends’ and ‘you can’t EVER be friends with an ex’ nonsense makes me chuckle – heterosexuality can be so fragile.

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        ele4phant May 28, 2019, 8:28 pm

        I think some of it is being afraid to emasculate men, or being afraid to challenge the status quo, but I think a lot of it just comes reflexively, without thought.

        It’s easier to just go with the flow. It is easier to just make assumptions based on the cultural norms that have been drilled in your since birth. That’s why we build social norms in the first place, so we all have a general rule book to go by and we’re not having to constantly have conversations about what our assumptions and expectations are about this, that and the other.

        Y’all don’t have a built in rule book, so you’re forced to work it out. We do, and even though a lot of those social rules are toxic, sometimes you don’t even realize what you’re doing and assuming something is a bunch of bs until someone is like “Hey, should we go about it this way?” And then you’re like, oh yeah, that is stupid. Let’s change.

        LW needs to be that person that is just like “Hey, is this actually the way we want to go about things?” And I bet a lot of women will be like “Oh yeah. Let’s change that.”

        And then the ones that don’t, well he doesn’t want to date them after all.

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        MP May 28, 2019, 9:54 pm

        “It’s easier to just go with the flow. It is easier to just make assumptions based on the cultural norms that have been drilled in your since birth. That’s why we build social norms in the first place, so we all have a general rule book to go by and we’re not having to constantly have conversations about what our assumptions and expectations are about this, that and the other.”

        That’s so interesting you say that because that’s what we do too! I was socialized to be a cis heterosexual person like you so I hear you. I think since we’re all raised in a hetro-dominant culture we all have been given the same guidebook. I think queer folks just might scribble and add things a little bit more since what our parents/society/tv tell us is the only way is often very different from who we are haha. And a lot of heterosexual people write their own rules too! That said, queer dating does have some weird guideline-esque things and toxic elements as well – although not as rigid I think because it’s not like we have institutional power for centuries. I read recently that more women are empowered to propose to their male partners these days because of increased visibility of seeing women propose to each other. That’s not what my husband and I did but I thought that was so neat. It’s interesting how regardless of orientation we can all learn something from another.

        Circling back to patriarchy though, it’s so weird to think though how all of this patriarchal marriage/dating stuff was made by men to keep men in power but is now accidentally hurting men?! And I feel for LW because I’m sure on some level he feels like he can’t speak up because it’ll reflect poorly on his manhood if he doesn’t want to pay every time (it doesn’t!).

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        ele4phant May 28, 2019, 10:12 pm

        I totally think sexism (and racism and all those other structural isms) were totally meant to be tools to control men just as much as women.

        Truth is there are very few people that have control, and they don’t want to give that up to the masses. So you tell men with relatively low social standing that they have superiority over women, they’ll be placated and won’t question the state of their lives. You tell white people with relatively low social standing that they have superiority over people of different ethnic backgrounds, they will be placated and won’t question the state of their lives, and so on.

        It was never really meant to elevate most men that much, it was just as much about constraining and controlling them as it was the women.

        Knowing that doesn’t make it go away, life is still way worse for women (or a person of color) in most regards, but yeah, the patriarchy was not designed to benefit all men, it was about giving them just enough to keep them in line.

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        LW May 28, 2019, 10:37 pm

        ele4phant, the below is so true!

        Like yes, the idea that whoever does the inviting does the paying is a good idea, and one that I think most millennials would agree with at face value. HOWEVER, who is usually expected to do the asking in straight relationships? Well men are. So by default, they’re usually the ones paying.

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      ele4phant May 28, 2019, 10:56 pm

      Okay, just like Kate, I want to reiterate, I’m not exactly on your side here.

      I find you extremely frustrating, to the point of absurdity, that you WILL NOT JUST TALK to this woman.

      I think you came here looking for an echo chamber, and you’re sticking around for any glimmer of that.

      Whatever attitudes we want to have about gender roles society places on us, you could EASILY solve (at least between you and this one woman) things by just talking to her.

      You want expectations to change? Be part of the change by TALKING TO THE WOMEN YOU DATE ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT.

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  • avatar

    LW May 28, 2019, 11:51 pm

    Yes. I will talk to her.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      Kate May 29, 2019, 4:29 am

      I doubt you will. You sound deeply afraid of women, as much as you’d like to believe you’re equal. The obvious reason would be that if you piss them off they won’t have sex with you, but I also think you know you aren’t as smart, or work as hard as, many women.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      ele4phant May 29, 2019, 12:47 pm

      I don’t know that I believe you. You started this thread days ago, what’s the hold-up?

      This isn’t a fraught conversation – just hey “I’ve enjoyed getting to know you. Now that we’re seeing each other more often, I’d prefer if we started switching off and took turns when it comes to paying for dates (or splitting 50/50 down the middle, or paying for ourselves, or whatever it is you want because I’m not even sure), does that work for you?”

      And then if she pulls another switcharoo, saying she’s only going to pay for herself after she said she’d get you both the next time, just “Oh! I’m sorry, I thought we had agreed we would take turns paying. I got us last time, so I assumed you would get us this time. Am I mistaken about that?”

      This isn’t hard. None of this is hard. She’ll either get on board and is compatible with you, or she’s not, either way you’ll find out by communicating directly with her what it is you want.

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  • avatar

    Allornone May 29, 2019, 8:17 am

    If you do talk to her, please let us know how it goes. I’m quite curious myself.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      Vathena May 29, 2019, 8:26 am

      ^^^^THIS^^^^

      Reply Link
  • Kate B.

    Kate B. May 29, 2019, 9:18 am

    No one person can solve all the world’s problems on their own. But you have the power to solve this particular problem in this particular relationship. Tell her what your expectations are. She will either agree or disagree. If she agrees, your problem is solved. If she disagrees, you can break up with her and your problem will still be solved. See how easy? Win-win!

    Reply Link
  • bittergaymark

    Bittergaymark May 29, 2019, 9:52 am

    I’d bet a million dollars she is NOT very agreeable to what he has to say. Just wait. She’ll be a real brat about it.
    .
    This is a curious thread. It’s funny how Wendy says none of her friends would ever act this way and the guy is totallu out to lunch and blah blah blah… Yet many on here provide pretty gross princess examples they themselves have witnessed.
    .
    Meanwhile, far too many are simply obsessed with materialism. Only $45 blah blah blah. A date is NEVER fast food. This thread reeks of it. Snobbery is alive and well, eh? How a fast food dinner is some grave dating sin remains hilarious to me.
    .
    PS — slurring this LW as a “low quality guy” simply because his meal prices are not routinely NYC high enough is curiously very Forrest Trump sounding. Much like his vapid endless low “i.q. individual” rhetoric. The level of polite discourse in america continues to plummet. Sigh…

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    • avatar

      Kate May 29, 2019, 10:30 am

      I called him a low quality guy because he’s whiny and weak and helpless and misogynistic. I have no issue with his budget.

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        Kate May 29, 2019, 10:31 am

        Well, I actually called him a low quality dating prospect. Which he is, in the world of straight M/F dating. Sorry.

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    • avatar

      Ele4phant May 29, 2019, 10:58 am

      I have no idea what she’ll say. She’s clearly not unwilling to pay anything ever – as evidenced by the fact she has, in fact, paid for things. Not as much as you and the LW think she should, but it still stands, she’s not actually that far behind him in what’s been put in.

      She may prefer to have them each cover themselves, seems like that’s what she’s naturally done a few times. Which LW should be okay with, theoretically, as it will mean he’s not out there constantly treating her and covering her “expensive” tastes, and can choose to spend as much or as little as he’s comfortable with on himself.

      We can all speculate about how she’ll react but known of us will ever know until he says something. Which I’m not confident he will. This thread has covered a weekend, did they not go out? Have they not been in touch? Seems to me if he was truly willing to speak up, he would’ve stopped wasting time here and just…done it.

      Honestly mark, if a woman writing in had an issue in her relationship that you judged to have a shred of legitimacy – you would be ripping her apart if she failed to say something after she had been prompted to for days.

      Reply Link
    • Kate B.

      Kate B. May 29, 2019, 11:03 am

      Well, if she is a brat about it, then he’s learned that about her and can make up his own mind whether to continue to date her. If he does continue to date her knowing that she’s a brat, then he likes dating brats and that’s on him. I honestly don’t know why he’s continuing to date her, he doesn’t seem to like her very much. Are there no other women where he lives?

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 29, 2019, 11:13 am

      Also – I can’t speak for others, but I have no issue with low cost dates when you’re well into adulthood, whether that be going to the mall and getting fastfood, or having a relatively modest sit-down dinner. (I do personally draw the line at sneaking food into a movie theater; I know people do it and I don’t think it’s the hugest deal in the world, but I don’t do it. I get that it’s expensive, so I just forgo snacks entirely. But that’s a me thing).

      What I DO take issue with is him implying that his sit down dinner is SO MUCH MORE expensive than her fast food meal. I don’t care where you are, it’s not that big a difference in price. What’s an affordable nice meal may vary massively depending where you are, but fast food prices are pretty consistent no matter where you are. We can generally understand the gap in the cost of her meal vs his, and on the scale of things, it’s not that much more, regardless of where they are.

      Reply Link
  • avatar

    ron May 29, 2019, 12:16 pm

    This is really very, very simple. Talk to her. Either you can or you cannot come to an understanding on what dates cost and who pays how much. If you can reach an agreement, then all is well. If you can’t, then you break up. Why are you still dating this woman, whom you keep railing against to us? You can change misunderstandings about assumptions; you can’t change people. For all your rage, and that’s a reasonable thing to call the feelings which flow from your posts, it’s strange that you continue to date this woman. Her spending on dates either is or it isn’t a dealbreaker. You can’t have it both ways.

    Reply Link
  • avatar

    LW May 29, 2019, 8:40 pm

    We went out to dinner last night. Her meal was around $34 and mine was around $10 (I didn’t want a heavy meal)

    She asked a few times if I wanted some of her meal as it was too much. So I helped myself (just a little)

    After the meal we talked for a bit and then I said to her “do you mind if we split the bill”?

    I could just tell she didn’t like it. How? Because i’m a good judge..So she took out $20 from her purse and I took $20 out of my wallet.

    I then said to her another 4 dollars is required and she gave 4 dollars.
    She seemed fine after that.

    It wasn’t really splitting the bill. It was more like 50/50 regardless of the cost. In fact, my dish was only $10, and I still contributed another $10 to her meal.

    The previous week, my meal was $10 and hers was $20. She wanted each of us to pay for our own meal. THAT was splitting of the bill.

    I like her but I’m still getting to know her.

    Am i nit-picking?

    For any future movies or dinners, I’m going to suggest we pay for our own or go 50/50.

    I think that is fair and reasonable?

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      Vathena May 29, 2019, 9:43 pm

      YOU were the one who asked to split the bill, and you’re pissed off that she agreed and split the bill?? YOU asked to split it, not to each pay your own, and now you’re upset that you subsidized her meal? YES, you’re nitpicking! It sounds like she’s fine paying her own way, so if you’d rather not split the bill evenly, then DON’T ASK TO SPLIT THE BILL! JFC! You know what, I promise you, over the course of a long life, you’re not going to miss a few bucks here and there.

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    • avatar

      Ele4phant May 29, 2019, 10:25 pm

      Dude splitting the bill means cutting it 50-50. That’s what she did. Sounds like what you want is for you each to just cover your own bills – which is fine and what she did willingly before – but it’s not what you asked her to do this time.

      And to really hammer it home – she did exactly what you asked. You are assuming she didn’t like it – but you give no evidence to that aside from you “just could tell”. You say you’re a good judge by why should I trust you? You seem a super poor communicator outwards, so what makes you think your great at understanding other people?

      Maybe it’s not that she doesn’t want to pay her share or do what you want, but you are confusing as f and she’s getting irritated with you for not being clear about what the hell you want her to do.

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    • avatar

      Ele4phant May 29, 2019, 10:35 pm

      Besides I thought you wanted to take turns paying? Ask for what you actually want and be clear about it.

      If you want to split the bill – fine. That means you’re going to split everything 50-50 regardless of what you each order individually.

      If you want you each to pay your own way – fine, but be clear about that.

      If you want to take turns paying great – but tell her exactly that.

      All of this before anyone sits down to order so expectations are clear.

      I bet she is super confused and increasingly frustrated with you. She’s doing what you ask and you’re still being pissy about it.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      Kate May 30, 2019, 5:02 am

      Wow. That was fine to ask her to split, but it was such bad etiquette on your part to ask for 4 more dollars. This is why I say you’re not a desirable dating prospect. That was so petty and cheap. Also how about the server’s tip, or do you not tip where you live?

      And “I didn’t want a heavy meal,” my ass. My one boyfriend who was cheap used to pretend he wasn’t hungry, but he was as hungry as anyone, he just didn’t want to spend money. He wouldn’t eat or drink on a long trip to an all-inclusive resort (all day) until we got there and he could hit the buffet, so I’d be eating in front of him.

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        Kate May 30, 2019, 5:15 am

        And you helped yourself to her food and still asked for $4 more dollars! You’re awful.

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      • avatar

        Kate May 30, 2019, 5:41 am

        And my cheap boyfriend had a hearty af appetite at home, but always played the “not hungry” card in social situations. Even when I won a trip to Aruba in a work contest and was paying his way (typically we’d split vacations but he did make more than me and had more in the bank), he didn’t eat til we got there or offer to buy me a Starbucks or something at the airport. You with your always ordering the cheapest thing on the menu and knowing exactly what everyone’s food cost… you’re cheap!!! Something’s definitely off about her too if she’s been on 8 dates with you. Maybe you’re a perfect match.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 30, 2019, 8:44 am

        I was also wondering about a tip! LW, are you not tipping your servers?!

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      • avatar

        Kate May 30, 2019, 8:53 am

        If it’s Canada, they definitely tip there, and min 15% is expected. If Australia, it says you don’t have to tip but you definitely can.

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      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 30, 2019, 8:55 am

        Ok, if he lives somewhere where tipping is less customary, you know he’s most definitely not tipping.

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      • avatar

        Lurker101 May 30, 2019, 9:44 am

        He is cheap but I don’t think she’s any better. If I order a $35 meal, I won’t just contribute $20. Another family and ours usually go out all the time and with just 1 bill, we usually just split it but if we order drinks and more expensive meals, we will contribute more to cover our costs and not just 50/50.

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      • avatar

        Ele4phant May 30, 2019, 9:45 am

        Australia you really don’t tip – maybe you leave extra change on the table, but it’s not a thing.

        The cost of service is already built into the menu prices, so they seem much higher, but you truly are not expected to leave any sort of tip.

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      • avatar

        Ele4phant May 30, 2019, 10:02 am

        @lurker – if somebody told me they wanted to split the bill, I’d hear that they wanted to split it 50-50, because that is it’s common meaning. I would not assume they wanted me to pay the $34 that covered what I ordered. If that’s what they wanted the more clear way to say that is – let’s pay for ourselves, or let’s get separate checks. To me that clearly says we’re paying for what we individually ordered.

        I really do not know if she’s cheap or not like him, maybe she is. But I do know he is not clear at all, both in what he wants (originally he was talking about wanting to take turns) or how he expresses himself.

        We could say she’s cheap because half of 44 is 22 not 20, but now we’re quibbling about two dollars. Which c’mon, that’s asinine.

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      • avatar

        Ele4phant May 30, 2019, 10:06 am

        To me, split the bill means split it evenly. So you’re telling the server to split your check in half if there are two of you. If you were with a group of 4 friends, you’d be telling the server to split it into equal quarters.

        Telling the server – we’d like separate checks means bring us individual checks that covers what we ordered individually.

        That’s not what he asked her to do.

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      • avatar

        Lurker101 May 30, 2019, 10:25 am

        Yea but if I order a meal for $34 and the bill total is $44 and someone says to split it, I would just offer to pay the extra $4 but that’s just me.

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      • avatar

        Ele4phant May 30, 2019, 10:43 am

        I mean sure.

        But at that point, we’re talking a couple dollars. That is not worth getting hung up on. I think.

        And he’s clearly thinking she should be putting in way more than an extra four dollars. I don’t know if he understands that he asked her to do the opposite of what he wanted, or if he keeps setting up these tests on purpose where he says one thing but thinks she “should know” to do another.

        Which come on man, just ask for what you want clearly. She seems to go along with whatever he asks, so just ask for exactly what it is you want.

        He supposedly wanted to have them take turns paying, so why is he even bothering with this splitting/separating the bills nonsense?

        I find him super aggravating, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s getting frustrated with him as well.

        If he can “just tell” that she takes some sort of offense to splitting, I’m sure she can “just tell” that he always seems to get prickly when it comes time to pay, no matter which way they go about it and regardless of the fact that she always does what he asks.

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  • avatar

    Ele4phant May 30, 2019, 10:22 am

    Basically it’s absurd to fault her for not realizing there is an unspoken expectation that she should pay more because she ordered more, when he verbally set a totally different expectation (that they were going to split 50-50).

    He needs to ask for what he wants and mean it. That means understanding exactly what he’s asking *for*, and asking for exactly what it is he wants. I *think* originally what he wanted was to trade off, so why isn’t he just asking for that?

    Having two different expectations, one spoken and one not, is stupid.

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  • avatar

    anonymousse May 30, 2019, 11:15 am

    You asked to split the bill, and now you’re pissed she didn’t pay for her entire meal.

    This is why you are unhappy- you are not communicating what you actually want clearly. You used your words- but not the right ones. You’re asking for one thing and expecting another. And you’re getting annoyed and she’s probably picking up on that as well.

    You aren’t getting what you want, because you’re not communicating clearly.

    Reply Link
    • bittergaymark

      Bittergaymark May 30, 2019, 11:26 am

      Yes. Typically, splitting the bill implies splitting it right down the middle into two very equal halves. You wanted Separate Checks. Sorry, LW. But you really can’t fault someone for not knowing you fail to grasp even the most basic of dating / dining-out terms… 🙄

      Reply Link
      • avatar

        ele4phant May 30, 2019, 11:51 am

        Ah man. I was looking forward to seeing how you would spin this as still being her fault. What a let down.

        She could totally be cheap. She could totally resent being asked to pay for anything.

        But man, he clearly is not capable of articulating what he wants and has all these hidden expectations and tests that she is bound to fail.

        And for me, that is a huuuugggeeeee pet peeve, when people can’t/won’t be clear and hold grudges for things they never made explicit.

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      • bittergaymark

        Bittergaymark May 30, 2019, 12:05 pm

        He’s not only poorly communicating. He is flat out asking for the wrong thing. Irony: Getting what he asks for — but NOT what he wants as he stupidly keeps asking for the check in the opposite manner of what he desires.

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  • avatar

    saneinca May 30, 2019, 2:29 pm

    Here is the deal. The LW is cheap. And he does not want to cover his date’s bill.
    Which is perfectly fine.

    But he doesn’t want to tell the girl to cover her own bill and reveal himself as cheap. So he somehow expects the girl to do what he wants without ever asking her.

    Dude, if you are cheap, then own it. No need to pretend to be otherwise.

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  • avatar

    LW May 30, 2019, 7:59 pm

    I come across as cheap because of my frustration that women never insist on paying for anything UNLESS you actually tell them.

    It would be nice if a woman actually said “I’ll shout dinner because you shouted last time” … What are the chances of that happening?
    You actually have to tell her that’s it’s her turn to shout.

    That’s the whole point of my letter.

    Sorry, but that’s how i feel.

    Reply Link
    • avatar

      ktfran May 30, 2019, 8:04 pm

      False. Every woman I know picks up her share, including myself.

      Reply Link
    • avatar

      anonymousse May 30, 2019, 10:10 pm

      No, you come across as cheap because you asked her to split the bill and then told her to chip in four more dollars…..AND the whole time that’s not even what you wanted! You’re a coward.

      You aren’t getting what you want because you haven’t told her how you actually feel. Is it really that hard to ask her to pay for her own meal?

      I get the idea you’re lucky to be going on dates at all, and that’s why you won’t fess up.

      If you don’t like that she won’t pay, then stop dating her. And maybe grow a pair and actually be honest with people before you even attempt swiping right again.

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      • avatar

        anonymousse May 30, 2019, 10:11 pm

        You haven’t dated ALL women, so stop with the blanket statements.

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    • avatar

      Allornone May 31, 2019, 7:14 am

      Jesus effing Christ!!!!!!! This is why you piss me off. WOMEN DO OFFER TO PAY. Hell, I paid for dinner last night. Actually, technically, since I buy all the groceries in my household, I pay for dinner most nights. STOP APPLYING YOUR OWN LIMITED EXPERIENCE TO AN ENTIRE EFFING GENDER! Maybe it’s the type of girls you’re attracted to; maybe it’s something about you that draws materialistic wenches, I don’t know. BUT IT IS NOT ALL OF US. And the fact that you still think it is makes Wendy right- you are a misogynist. And that alone really limits any sympathy I have for you.

      In comparison, I’ ve dated some really scuzzy guys in that past. Most of them either cheated on me, lied to me, or flat out used me (often, a combination of the three!). Did I condemn all men because of it? No, I did some serious self-reflection, realized how my own patterns of behavior and lack of self-esteem contributed me finding these jerks, and worked to improve it. Now, I’m in a very happy, healthy long-term relationship with the greatest person I’ve even known. So maybe, just maybe: IT IS NOT WOMEN. IT IS YOU.

      Reply Link
      • Dear Wendy

        Dear Wendy May 31, 2019, 8:47 am

        Amen.

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      • avatar

        ktfran May 31, 2019, 8:53 am

        Slow clap. That is all.

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    • avatar

      ron May 31, 2019, 9:57 am

      LW — with all your ranting and unwillingness to accept any advice, I must conclude that you are a misogynist troll from some ‘mens’ rights’ group or follower of same on internet. Your tale makes no sense: this awful, cheap, gold-digging woman who lusts after the crumbs you throw her way infuriates you so with her ‘taking’ of your money, yet you continue to date her. Why? Your contempt for her is obvious. if you are real and not a troll, then you need to step back from dating and seek therapy. If you have any hint of honesty/goodness within your being, then you will break up with this woman and leave her free to date another who doesn’t view her with such contempt. And yes, even if she is cheap, which your descriptions don’t actually show, to generalize to ALL women is the mark of the misogynist bigot. If you aren’t having great dating success, you need look no farther than your bitter misogyny for the cause.

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      • avatar

        LW June 1, 2019, 12:14 am

        Ron – i continue to date her because i like her.

        Sorry Ron. I’m entitled to my opinion and you’re entitled to yours.

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      • avatar

        ron June 1, 2019, 7:39 am

        LW —
        Re-read your posts. You certainly don’t write as if you like her. You write as if you are raging because you believe she cheats you out of $1.50 here and $5 there. If she knew how you actually feel about her, she’d be gone in a flash.

        You’ve come to an advice blog of primarily women, not to seek advice, but to rage against women. Ulterior motive.

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      • avatar

        Kate June 1, 2019, 8:15 am

        You’ve said NOTHING nice about her, or about why you and she are a good fit. All you’ve done is fixate on her purse (so weird btw) and what’s in it and what she eats and drinks, and why this proves that all women are trying to use men for food.

        It really does come across loud and clear that you have few to no dating options and you know it, you don’t like women, are kind of scared of them, but you know you have to put up with stuff you don’t like in order to have some sex. And you don’t like that dynamic so you rail against women on a public forum.

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      • avatar

        Allornone June 1, 2019, 12:03 pm

        Seriously. I think you’re right, ron. Of all the advice sites out there, he chose the most feminist one I know (and I read A LOT of advice columns; it’s kind of a very strange hobby of mine). I mean, he couldn’t have actually believed he would receive sympathy. And he’s made it clear that he has no interest in listening to advice. So why write to her? It seems fishy. This guy is a MRA or something.

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 31, 2019, 1:15 pm

      Well, then sounds like you’re in a pickle, caught between the world as you wish it to be and what it actually is.

      I’d caution against making sweeping generalizations against half the world’s population, but whatever, you claim this is a universal experience for you, so okay.

      If you refuse to speak up and advocate for yourself because you shouldn’t “have to”, well okay then, enjoy just being bitter and nothing changing anytime soon.

      There is tons of shit I wish I didn’t have to deal with because people should just “know better”, but they don’t, so rather than sit around and throw a pity party for myself each and every time someone is being an idiot and should know better, I just speak up for myself. Usually that fixes thing and is pretty painless on my part.

      You could do the same, but if you don’t want to, well, have fun with that.

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    • avatar

      ele4phant May 31, 2019, 2:00 pm

      Also – while this site has a predominantly female audience, you will notice that, with one exception, the men commenting here are not in agreement with you.

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      • avatar

        allornone May 31, 2019, 2:11 pm

        Heck, even BitterGayMark has admitted the LW isn’t communicating the way he should be. LW, WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? You know, I never write in all caps, but this dude is infuriating me with his sweeping generalizations and complete inability to just ask for what he wants. I mean, crap.

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  • avatar

    anonymousse May 31, 2019, 10:44 am

    Stop dating women, then. Never go out to a place where money is involved.

    Reply Link

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