solution for. We’ll call her “Amber.” Amber and Scott have a several mutual friends from their childhood and youth group. Scott had strong feelings for her in high school, but unfortunately for him, they were unrequited. From what we’ve discussed, I gather that she was a girl who liked the attention and genuinely liked Scott as a friend, but nothing more. But she was the girl who broke his heart. I’ve always known that they’ve kept up with each other via email – not often, just occasionally. I know that he met up with her several years back, just to catch up. This was before we started dating. Two years ago, he mentioned meeting up with her for a drink after work. I would be out of town for work, and he seemed pretty relieved that I wouldn’t be able to join them. After some discussion (the crazy insecure girl inside of me came to the surface), he explained that he just wanted closure, that he wasn’t looking for a friend, just wanted to get some feelings resolved. Well, I had to understand that. I can’t keep somebody from trying to move on from hurt feelings.
Then six months ago, he casually mentioned that Amber’s marriage wasn’t doing well. I was pretty surprised by the conversation. I didn’t even know that they had been talking. It turns out that he had met up with her twice. He insists it was innocent. I’m not being stupid; I completely believe him. He apologized that he did not tell me, he honestly thought he’d mentioned her name. We often each meet our own friends on our own. He promised he’d always keep me in the loop going forward, but the kicker is that he told me that he did not want me to meet Amber. His reasoning is that she can be catty and mean and he thinks that she would say something to me that would hurt my feelings. And if she does that, then of course his friendship with her would be over.
So he has not sold Amber well. She is now getting a divorce, she’s having an affair with a wealthy married man and now apparently, she would be mean to me. I can’t understand this. Why would Scott want to be friends with this woman? He knows that I am hurting over this friendship and that I cannot understand it, and yet there is no resolution. I can’t get past these feelings that either he doesn’t
care how I feel or there is something more. And I cannot be the kind of woman that forbids her man from having a friend who is a girl. But the whole “not meeting” is a big kink. This is just too much for me. Am I being an idiot by being so trusting? Or is he just completely clueless? — Concerned Fiancée
First of all, let’s get something clear: you are not a “crazy, insecure girl” because you’re worried about your fiancé meeting up for “closure” with some chick whom he once had unrequited feelings for and being relieved that you’ll be out of town when he finally sees her. Second, it wasn’t “closure” if he’s still meeting up with her occasionally behind your back. Third, he didn’t forget to mention he was meeting up with her. He purposely didn’t tell you about the occasions when he saw her because he knew it would upset you. You two are engaged, which means you probably talk a lot (and if you don’t, you shouldn’t be engaged). I know how couples are. They discuss every detail of their days when they’re apart. They talk about whom they ate lunch with, what they watched on TV last night, what crazy thing their mom said in an email this morning. When you talk to someone every day, as most couples who are engaged to be married do, there’s very little day-to-day activity that goes unmentioned. Unless, of course, there’s an activity that one party wants to keep secret from the other.
You are not stupid. You have a bad feeling about Scott’s friendship with Amber and for good reason. It’s shady. He said he wanted closure and wasn’t looking for a “friend” and yet he has continued to see this woman he once had — and maybe still has? — unrequited feelings for. You are not wrong for feeling suspicious. And you would not be wrong for expressing your discomfort to Scott and telling him you have a real problem with him spending time alone with a woman he was had more than platonic feelings for and whom he can’t bring himself to introduce to you. You are not wrong in telling him you can’t understand why he’d WANT to be friends with someone he speaks so negatively about and that you have to wonder what it is that keeps him wanting more from her despite having supposedly gotten “closure.” You can tell him you have no problem with him having female friends — maybe even female friends he has crushed on or dated — but you do have a problem with him having female friends he sees behind your back, can’t bring himself to introduce to you, and has such unpleasant things to say about. (And for the record, I don’t believe the reason he wants to keep you apart is because he’s worried she’ll say something mean to you. I think it’s because he’s worried what you’ll think when you see them together. Maybe there’s chemistry there he doesn’t want you to witness. Maybe he’s concerned that because you know him so well, you’ll see how he acts when he’s with her and cut right through to his real feelings. I’d be worried, too, if I were him).
What you know about this woman is that she has no problem screwing a married man and that she likes attention from men who want her regardless of what her feelings for them are or what effect she has on them or their lives. What you know about her relationship with your fiancé is that it has, at one point (and perhaps still), included romantic feelings and that most of it — including the woman herself — has been kept secret from you. I’d say for those reasons alone you have very good cause to be concerned, and to feel disrespected. So tell Scott that. Let him know he’s treading on thin ice here and that his behavior is putting your relationship in jeopardy. Establish the kind of respect you hope to have in your marriage NOW. Let him know that his relationship with you should be the most important thing in the world and that it’s both of your jobs now to put your relationship FIRST, to take care of it and nurture it and not let outside influences, like a “friend” of one of yours who is apparently so unpleasant she can’t be introduced to the other, fuck it up.
Maybe you don’t feel comfortable dictating whom your fiancé can and cannot be friends with, but I hope you also don’t feel comfortable marrying someone until you feel 100% confident that he has the best interests of you and your relationship at heart, above everything else.
*If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, send me your letters at email@example.com and be sure to follow me on Twitter.
SweetPeaG May 4, 2012, 9:38 am
First of all, Wendy- loved your advice! I loved the fact that you made it a point to tell the LW that she is not crazy or stupid. I think all too often when people are suspicious about their significant other doing, well, suspicious things, they are made to feel like it is their issue. This is not your issue LW.
The other day, Wendy posted this link:
There was a particular quote in here that I wish the LW’s fiance would read and take to heart: “Leave your ex boyfriends and girlfriends alone. I’m sure you’re very trustworthy. Aren’t we all? The thing is, there’s absolutely no reason to test it. Your husband (or wife) and your marriage are more valuable than any friendship. Any friendship that troubles the marriage should be over immediately.”
I think if this guy is willing to make some changes (by stop hanging out with this woman!), than this relationship is salvageable. He might just not be admitting to himself that what he is doing is super shady. But, if he is unwilling to place his future marriage as his biggest priority by stop seeing this “friend”, well… he might not be the kind of man you want as a husband. Time to be 100% honest with your fiance, LW, and stop sugar-coating how much this situation is making you uncomfortable and hurt.
Taylor May 4, 2012, 1:58 pm
Ravage Maladie May 4, 2012, 2:36 pm
What a great article. What a GREAT website! Thanks for pointing that out to me!
DW is such a helpful community:).
Fabelle May 4, 2012, 9:38 am
Wendy, this is PERFECT.
lets_be_honest May 4, 2012, 9:42 am
Yikes, what Wendy said. I’m cool with my SO having female friends, even one that he used to date. But he’s gone out of his way to make me comfortable with it, by inviting me along every time they hang out, telling me when they talk (in small conversations about our day, like Wendy dicussed). What you are dealing with is far different from that. I would be extremely uncomfortable and would have a very hard time trusting this guy. Shady. You need to tell him this is not acceptable. If his friend would talk shit about you that’s not a friend he should have, guy or girl. And the closure thing? Laughable. I hope you deal with this stat.\
ps Scott & Amber? Anyone else thinking about that case?
Fabelle May 4, 2012, 9:43 am
And LW– there’s no reason to let your desire to be cool with everything override the very reasonable distress you’re feeling. Your fiancè is being SHADY, and that’s not okay. It doesn’t matter if there’s nothing physical going on– he’s still deliberately NOT mentioning things & pushing boundries with a woman who “used to” have strong feelings for.
Kristen May 4, 2012, 9:46 am
LW, this isn’t normal. There’s a big difference between being secure enough in your relationship to allow your fiance to have female friends and being okay with him meeting up with a girl he 1) used to have teenager-fueled romantic feelings for and 2) that he won’t let you meet. Please don’t believe him when he says he just forgot to mention that he had met up with her (more than once!). In reality, he just wanted to put his toe in the water without having to tell you about it. Even if he’s deeply committed to you, he’s probably having all kinds of “what if” thoughts since his relationship with her never came to fruition. By spending time with her, he gets to gauge how that future might have been. This isn’t cool. Not to mention, if he says she’s mean and wouldn’t get along well with you, why would he want to be friends with her himself? His first priority should be protecting his relationship with you. This girl shouldn’t even be a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of his impending marriage with you… but he’s letting her be. And you shouldn’t feel bad about questioning his behavior or calling him out on it.
lets_be_honest May 4, 2012, 9:52 am
AND its more than coincidental that she’s back in the picture because she’s getting a divorce.
Kristen May 4, 2012, 9:55 am
Agreed! Also, he “casually mentioned” it out of the blue. Yeah….
Will.i.am May 4, 2012, 11:59 am
” Not to mention, if he says she’s mean and wouldn’t get along well with you.” This statement is the truth right here. This statement is saying that he doesn’t WANT YOU TO MEET HER. That’s a profound statement for him to make, to HIS FIANCE! Guy has a little douchebaggery.
caroline May 5, 2012, 11:31 am
I don’t think she would be mean to the LW but the fiancé would be mean to her actually. He just want to be alone with his female friend.
Anna May 4, 2012, 12:50 pm
Yep, you hit it on the head there. I also think that the whole “being relieved my fiancee is out of town so I can meet up with this other chick” and making up excuses for why the LW can’t meet this other woman may be an indicator that Amber wasn’t even told the fiancee exists. What if he went to this meeting with her and told Amber he was single? Or just conveniently omitted his engagement from the conversation. That would make it pretty awkward to introduce them later. It sounds like he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
bethany May 4, 2012, 9:47 am
LW- My husband has met up with his x-girlfriend several times over the years, and once right before we got married. He was with her for a long time, and he felt like he just needed to have one final conversation with her before taking that next step. And I was fine with it. I might give him shit about it jokingly, but really, it doesn’t bother me at all.
HOWEVER– If it really bothered me, he wouldn’t go. Or if I wated to come along, he would welcome me.
Your fiance is still thinking as a “me”. When you’re engaged/married, you need to think as a “we”. When you make decisions you have to think about how they’ll affect you both. It sounds like he’s not doing that, and that concerns me. You need to have a serious conversation with your fiance about his behavior. He’s been sneaky and he’s not making good decisions for you as a couple. I would not marry this guy until you guys resolve some of these issues!
bagge72 May 4, 2012, 9:48 am
Umm, yeah I 100% agree with Wendy. Your boyfriend is acting extremely shady, and it’s fine that he has female friends, but if he has female friends that you aren’t allowed to meet or talk to then there is something very wrong with that! I can be certain when I tell you that the reason he is making her out to be such a bad person is so you wont think anything is going on with them, he knows you are insecure about her, and he thinks if he makes her look bad you wont think anything is going on between them, and you will let him just keep on hanging out with her. He probably thinks you feel more comfortable if he tells you she is bedding up with some other guy right now.
I can also tell you that even though he might not be physically cheating on you, he definitely is still crushing on her hard, and that’s not cool either, because he isn’t removing himself from that situation. Eventually he is probably going to do something with this girl so you need to tell him that you either get to hangout with them together, or he has to stop seeing her. If she is such a good friend of his she could find a way to be nice to you. It is just bad that he would rather lie, and hide things from you, just so he doesn’t have to stop being friends with a hot piece of ass who he is in love with who HATES you! Oh and he definitely didn’t forget to tell you he was hanging out with her, that just doesnt happen!
katie May 4, 2012, 9:55 am
good point that he isnt removing himself from the situation!!
having or getting a crush while in a commited relationship isnt a bad thing- it happens all the time. but i know, whenever it has happened to me, i will immediately go out of my way to not see that person because i value my relationship…. thats what you do.
Flake May 4, 2012, 10:39 am
”I can be certain when I tell you that the reason he is making her out to be such a bad person is so you wont think anything is going on with them”
That is my thought exactly. That way, you don’t really want to meet her, because who would want to hang out with such a bitch? Because you would definitely have a problem with it if he told that you that she is just a ray of sunshine and a delight to spend time with, but no, you really shouldn’t meet her…
ReginaRey May 4, 2012, 9:50 am
What struck me the most about your letter was this: “His reasoning is that she can be catty and mean and he thinks that she would say something to me that would hurt my feelings. And if she does that, then of course his friendship with her would be over.”
So, he doesn’t want you guys to meet because he’s pretty sure she’s going to say something catty and mean, and then he’d have to stop being friends with her? And clearly he can’t stop being friends with her, so therefore he can’t have you two meet.
Yeah, that’s pretty damn shady, LW. Your fiance having female friends is one thing. But having a female friend whom he once had feelings for, who he spends time with without “remembering to mention it” (yeah, BS), and who he refuses to introduce you to “for your own well-being” isn’t OK.
He doesn’t want you guys to meet because yes, she probably WOULD say something catty and mean, and then you’d force him to stop seeing her, which he doesn’t want to do (and exactly WHY is that?). But more than that, like Wendy said, he probably is afraid of what you’ll witness between him and her.
I’d spell out, in no uncertain terms, that your relationship is very likely in jeopardy if this continues. Tell him you’re uncomfortable. Tell him you want to meet her. And tell him that you’re REALLY concerned with why he wants to spend time with someone like this, alone, without mentioning it to you.
But I have to say, if it were me, I ‘d be pretty worried that my husband was so eager to keep some woman as his friend, that he’d omit things to me and refuse to introduce me to her. I’d be worried that he put OUR relationship in hot water, for the benefit of another woman.
IDreamofElectricSheep May 4, 2012, 10:16 am
Also, in my experience, people often don’t want SOs and “friends” to meet when they are afraid that 1) they may trade notes or 2) the cover will be blown. As in, perhaps:
– The fiancé told the friend that he and the LW were “on a break”
– The fiancé told the friend that he and the LW were having relationship issues and he’s afraid that she may bring that up
– The fiancé told the friend that the LW is fat, ugly, boring or “crazy” (or all of these)
– The friend is NOT in a relationship with some other guy
– The friend believes that the fiancé is only staying with the LW because she is unemployed or sick
– The friend thinks that the fiancé is no longer with the LW, but is waiting to be with her until after the divorce is finalized
You get the point.
Fabelle May 4, 2012, 10:22 am
This is a really good point– who knows what the fiancè is telling “Amber,” especially since she told him she’s having marriage problems. He could easily have worked in a “me too!”
demoiselle May 4, 2012, 12:06 pm
This seems highly probable.
AndreaMarie May 4, 2012, 10:35 am
Spot on!! Biggest red flag!! Not only does he so desperately want to hold on to a “friendship” with someone who would be rude to the woman he’s about to spend the rest of his life with. But he doesn’t want to settle your fears by having the 2 of you meet because then he wouldn’t be able to continue to be friends with Amber. What?!! What happened with the “closure”? If he can’t turn his friendship with Amber to a “Hey how have you been” email once a year, if he NEEDs to continue to meet up with her to talk about her divorce (huh??)…then there’s an issue.
demoiselle May 4, 2012, 11:46 am
I’d be worried there isn’t a wealthy married lover, and the divorce isn’t so very coincidental.
bostonpupgal May 4, 2012, 2:20 pm
LW, I am a little late to this party, but I really hope you read this. Several years ago I was engaged to a guy whom I truly, deeply, head over heels loved. He started a new job and made some friends there, one in particular we’ll call “jen”. He started doing exactly what your fiance is doing- casually mentioning her (when I didn’t even know they spoke that often), I’d find out after the fact that they had lunch or drinks together and that he’d never told me, but, despite his obvious desire to have her in his life, he would also saying negative things about her like “She’s so ugly, I’d never be interested in her”
Like you, I have no problem with friends of the opposite sex in relationships. Eventaully I nicely told my fiance I wanted to meet this girl. Like your fiance, he told me I shouldn’t, and refused to introduce us. The reason he gave me is that he should be able to have friends without me meeting them, and eventually called me out on being “crazy and controlling” for simply asking to set up lunch with her. I knew she knew about me, since his coworkers all knew about our upcoming wedding.
He was sleeping with her. That’s the reason he didn’t want me to meet her. He was cheating on me, and knew if I met her I might see that there was someting between them. Of course, I eventually found out about it, and left him immediately. Cancelling my wedding was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do. It hurt for years, even though I knew it was the right decision. It was also the best, best decision I ever made. It taught me more about my strength and character than any other obstacle I’ve ever overcome. And it opened the door for me to meet my now-fiance. My relationship with him is everything I’ve ever hoped for, and our wedding later this year is going to be amazing.
I’m not saying that your fiance is cheating on you, just that you should be very, very careful considering how he’s acting. I’ve been there, and I know the pain this type of situation can cause, but I’ve also been on the other side of it. Don’t be afraid to call it off just because of a dress, or a cake, or because you don’t think you can be without him. Your gut is telling you something is wrong, believe it.
Kristen May 4, 2012, 2:27 pm
Love your post! I hope the LW takes everything you said to heart.
ReginaRey May 4, 2012, 2:38 pm
AMAZING. I hope the LW reads this.
bostonpupgal May 4, 2012, 3:03 pm
Thanks guys 🙂 I just remember the torture of not knowing what the heck was going on between them, and knowing in my gut that something was very wrong. If the LW is feeling the same way, I just want her to know she can walk away from this if she needs to and go on to such better things. I couldn’t be mopped off the floor after I called off my wedding, I felt like I had failed and humiliated myself all at once, but I hadn’t. I went on to have great experiences, both as a single woman and with my almost-husband, and she will too
bostonpupgal May 4, 2012, 3:04 pm
almost as in soon-to-be, not with the almost-husband who cheated on me. I left him in the dust, lol
Budj May 4, 2012, 9:51 am
I know this sounds judgy, but let’s take the first half of Wendy’s third paragraph and then think about the boyfriend….and how pathetic you have to be to be entertaining never-dead romantic feelings for a girl like this in his mid-freakin 30’s ESPECIALLY one he has had prior history with….(zomg, but people change!!)
LW do what Wendy advises, but if I were you I’d probably just dump him…this situation doesn’t really reflect well for what he thinks of / how much he values your relationship.
ReginaRey May 4, 2012, 10:03 am
Yeah, I agree. I tend to think you have to be somewhat dissatisfied with your current relationship in order to act on some old crush you had 15 years ago.
In fact, this reminds me of a certain friend I have on this very site, who is friends with an engaged dude. The dude is very clearly panicking about getting married, is really, really doubtful about it, and keeps reaching out to my friend to go out to dinner one-on-one. I think he wants out the relationship, but he doesn’t feel like he can break the engagement. So he keeps asking my friend to go out with him because he’s trying to cling to something “on dry land,” as it were.
I think that could very well be happening, here. And “Amber” is very likely encouraging the behavior.
SweetPeaG May 4, 2012, 10:11 am
I think part of this guy’s inner reasoning (because he might not be fully owning up to it, even to himself), is that he wants the self-esteem boost. This chick rejected him back in the day and only wanted to be friends. His poor little ego still hurts from that (note the sarcasm). Now this woman is showing him attention and he is LOVING it. Maybe being that she is going through a divorce and maybe her own self-esteem is hurting from it, she is flirting, etc. because she knows her old friend Scott is always good for making her feel like a million bucks.
Yes, it is nice to feel wanted. I am sure it is nice to get attention from a beautiful woman. However, he has a woman who agreed to marry him waiting back at home. That’s pretty major, right? That should be the only self-esteem boost he needs.
The whole thing is very pathetic, in deed.
AndreaMarie May 4, 2012, 10:30 am
I thought the same thing. She uses him for an attention boost because he has the upper hand, she doesnt have feelings for him, but she KNOWS he does, even if he’s getting married. She can always count on him to say “No Amber, don’t cry. It will be ok, you are so beautiful and talent and have had men chasing you forever. You’ll find a new husband”. Sad.
katie May 4, 2012, 9:51 am
i think this is one of those times where it just doesnt feel right… something is off. that isnt crazyness, LW, and you need to trust your gut!! there is a huge difference between being a controlling bitch and saying your fiance cant have any female friends and then being worried because your fiance is being super shady with a former crush… huge difference.
also, did anyone else catch that these “feelings” were had in high school and this man is now is his mid-thirties?!?! how is he not over this woman?
Budj May 4, 2012, 9:53 am
I did 🙂
katie May 4, 2012, 9:55 am
i think we were typing at the same time… haha.
bagge72 May 4, 2012, 9:59 am
I didn’t even think of that at first, but you two are both right, those feelings should have gone away now, and if they hadn’t I think he is much more likely to bang her, especially if they get drunk together, and the LW is out of town again. LW DON’T GO OUT OF TOWN!
ScrambledMegss May 4, 2012, 11:55 am
Yeah LW, if we need to advise you not to go out of town for fear that your fiance will have the chance to do shady things behind your back with this woman then you probably need to re-evaluate this relationship.
And I know the “LW DON’T GO OUT OF TOWN!” is in jest, but I bet she’s thinking the exact same thing even thought she hasn’t said so.
AndreaMarie May 4, 2012, 10:28 am
That seems to be the bigger issue that needs to be address. Why is her fiancee so attached to this female? What is driving these “unresolved feelings”? Why would he need to meet up with her for “closure” when they hadn’t been in High School for over 10 years?
tbrucemom May 4, 2012, 10:00 am
I’ve never agreed with Wendy on a letter as much as I do this one. Sometimes I’ve read letters and thought “really, this is what you’re upset about, get over it!” There is nothing indicated in this letter that makes me feel the LW is crazy or that her fiance is being misunderstood.
SweetPeaG May 4, 2012, 10:06 am
I have to agree that Wendy was particularly awesome today with this advice.
Samantha May 4, 2012, 12:16 pm
And can we note how compassionate her advice was while cutting straight to the truth, in light of this weeks outpouring of haterade?
TECH May 4, 2012, 10:01 am
OK, this guy had a crush on this girl in high school, and in his thirties he decided to meet her to get over his unresolved feelings and gain “closure”? Get over it! It was fifteen years ago! It just seems really fishy to me. If my boyfriend told me he was going out for drinks with some girl he liked back in high school to get closure, I’d tell him to grow the F up and go see a therapist if he needs closure.
People who are about to get married socialize with the opposite sex, but usually in groups and not in clandestine one on one meetings.
He’s putting this woman above you and your relationship — bottom line.
lets_be_honest May 4, 2012, 10:10 am
Yea 9 times out of 10, “closure” means at best, one last bang, at worst, well…
Leroy May 4, 2012, 12:55 pm
I’m betting that Amber is out of his league, and that he’s infatuated with her. If that’s the case, they’re probably not going to sleep with each other, unless she’s so malicious that she wants to screw up his relationship w/ the LW.
He really does need to grow up.
Lindsay May 4, 2012, 10:19 am
A happily engaged person should not need closure over requited love from high school. I am not not even dating anyone, and I don’t feel the need to revisit anything with any guy from my payt, much less a crush. Everything Wendy said was right. I don’t see how you guys could possible move on to marriage while he’s secretly seeing Amber and keeping her away from you.
cporoski May 4, 2012, 10:43 am
actually, I don’t necessarily agree with this. Sometimes you can be happy with 90% of your life but that 10% haunts you. Sometimes you need to wrap up those loose ends.
lets_be_honest May 4, 2012, 11:03 am
If 10% of his life is consumed by a crush from highschool 15 years ago so much so that he needs “closure,” my advice would be MOA, this guy has serious issues and should not be in any relationship.
cporoski May 4, 2012, 11:29 am
I agree about how much time is consumed. However, this is messy-er than just a crush. It sounds like this girl has strung him along for years. And now as an adult he knows better but he is still hanging on.
Also, I will say this. I had an ex who was everything I thought I wanted. He was the guy that matched the person I wanted to be. Not the person I am. He went to Princeton, traveled the world, was well read and well spoken. He could have been a senator and I would have been a senator’s wife. However, I thank God every day that I didn’t end up with that guy. I still think of the life I could have had from time to time, and I think alot of people have that road not taken thing.
The difference is that my road not taken is several countries away and his is still talking to him.
lets_be_honest May 4, 2012, 12:50 pm
Would you be willing to mess up your current relationship because of this ex though? I think that’s the issue. I’m sure a lot of people have exes or people in their past that they will still think of, probably even e-mail to see how they’re doing/what they’re up to. That’s not to say they would risk their current relationship for those people.
cporoski May 4, 2012, 12:53 pm
176% true. you are right on the money
Taylor May 4, 2012, 10:21 am
LOVE Wendy’s advice! LW, listen to her!!
DW linked a terrific article last Friday – Fifteen ways to stay married fifteen years, by Lydia Netzer, and number 11 was
“Do not put yourself in trouble’s way.
…Any friendship that troubles the marriage should be over immediately. Protect it with knives and teeth, not because it’s fragile but because it’s precious. Don’t ass around with a “hall pass” or a “harmless flirtation.” Adultery isn’t an event, it’s a process with an event at the end. Don’t put your feet on a path that could lead someplace bad.”
Which is so friggin’ well said. I think if you’re hanging out regularly with a person who attracts you, and there’s a funny or off or heightened sense involved, then it’s just not a good idea, and it’s disrespectful to boot.
SweetPeaG May 4, 2012, 10:32 am
I quoted the same article (see above).
Great minds think alike 😉
Taylor May 4, 2012, 1:28 pm
Awesome! I usually read the comments before posting, but the letter reminded me of the article so much I just had to spit it out =) TGIF!
DMR May 6, 2012, 5:23 am
“Adultery isn’t an event, it’s a process with an event at the end.”
This! What an awesome quote. I will be borrowing it.
AndreaMarie May 4, 2012, 10:24 am
Wendy was spot on, Im not sure what else I could add. You have every right to have a problem with this “friendship” and every right to confront him about your feelings. Closure means just that, closing off the relationship and your feelings. And he claims he no longer wants her as a friend yet he has been a shoulder to cry on for her while she’s going through her divorce? Its clear what Amber is getting from hanging out with your fiancee. She likes attention, she wants to feel wanted, she wants to feel the power of having the “upper hand” in her realtionships with men. Your fiancee probably still does have feelings for this woman (doesn’t mean he wants to act on them) but she does have a hold over him. She uses that. To meet up with him and throw a pity party about her life and get the self esteem boost from a guy she knows likes her. “No Amber, you are talented and smart and beautiful, you’ll be fine. You can have any guy you want”. See where this is going….
You need to talk to him. HE needs to get to the bottom of his feelings. Why is he continuing to see her? What is driving him to do this even though he knows it has a negative impact on your relationship? Why is he allowing himself to be manipulated by this woman? Why is he so desperately hanging on to a “friendship” with someone who he thinks would be rude to the woman he is going to make his wife??!!!
I repeat, you are NOT crazy and you are NOT being “that girl”.
landygirl May 4, 2012, 10:26 am
You’ve got to ask yourself why he is so attached to someone he was supposedly never romantically involved with. If you can’t leave your past behind you then you’ll never move forward.
Caris May 4, 2012, 5:28 pm
I stole your last line and posted it on my facebook 😀
Elle May 4, 2012, 10:31 am
I think the fiance needs to grow a backbone. This other woman has known about his feelings for a long time, so she turns to him whenever she’s going through a hard time because she knows he won’t judge her, but support her, at least emotionally. I agree with the other posters and Wendy, you’re completely in the right here. You should meet her. So what if she says something mean? LW, you know it’s coming, you’re an adult, you can deal with it. This also speaks of her immaturity – why would she be mean to the fiancee of the guy she only has platonic feelings for?
I would understand if she was part of the group of friends, and you guys couldn’t avoid her. But for him to go meet her one-on-one behind your back and not mention it to you, that’s not ok. He shouldn’t be keeping friends like this. Apparently his taste in women is great (your letter, LW, is very mature); he needs to work on picking his friends a bit better.
FireStar May 4, 2012, 10:41 am
I totally understand why your boyfriend doesn’t want you to meet Amber. How incredibly awkward would it be for him to act inappropriately with her while you are sitting right there? And you know what tells you it is inappropriate? You can’t be part of it. Having a female friend is fine – but the rule is whatever you do with her or say to her should be things you can do and say if your fiancee was sitting there. If you aren’t allowed there – there is a reason. And it’s not the lame one he gave.
Where is your line in the sand LW? He can continue to have an inappropriate relationship with this women all the while knowing it hurts you? Is an emotional affair okay? Is sleeping with her okay? Because this is the path he is on. Everyone always comes down on ultimatums but personally I have no problem with them. Life is about choices and consequences. Draw your line in the sand or be prepared to share your fiance.
cporoski May 4, 2012, 10:44 am
Wendy – I wish there was a thumbs up for your advice. This i have NOTHING to add to. Totally spot on. I wish I could just like it and let my opinion be known that way.
Will.i.am May 4, 2012, 10:53 am
Been there and done this, without the fiance title. I, too, was frustrated that an ex wouldn’t introduce me to any of her guy friends. To make a long story short, I was never comfortable with knowing she would get phonecalls all the time from her guy friends that I never met. I just wanted us to hang out as a group and not be the best of friends. They are her friends not mine, so I expected that some of us may not hem and haw together. It wasn’t that I didn’t trust her, I ultimately didn’t trust them. Especially when my ex mentioned that a couple of the guys had a thing for her in the past and not too distant past either.
Never give your finance an ultimatum, unless you know that he’s falling for her physically and/or emotionally. Otherwise, you set yourself up to be the “crazy woman.” Some relationships have friends that they don’t want their SO to meet, but I’m always under the assumption that if you don’t want me to meet this person; there must be an underlying issue that hasn’t been addressed.
Amber’s situation also sounds a bit drama filled. That can easily wear on your relationship if your fiance keeps in contact with her. You can voice how you feel about the communication that the two of them have, and if he doesn’t turn it down to a volume you are comfortable with, it’s on you to decide if you want to continue being in his life long-term.
Some friendships are toxic to couples, and it’s best to stay far away from those friendships.
jlyfsh May 4, 2012, 11:04 am
To me giving an ultimatum in this case isn’t being a crazy woman. There should be no friends that your SO isn’t comfortable with you meeting, like you said I’m not taking become best friends, but if you don’t even want them to meet over dinner or drinks with you present there is a problem. And any reason you have for them not wanting to meet isn’t a good one. She’ll never trust him this way and he’s not doing much to help build that trust up in this scenario.
FireStar May 4, 2012, 11:14 am
It is not crazy to state very clearly that some behaviour is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Quite frankly I think it is a game some men run to call a girl crazy or insecure or needy when she is addressing a legitimate concern in her relationship. It is nothing but making a good offence the best defence and I wish girls would stop buying into all that crap. Your boyfriend is creepin around with another woman? It stops immediately… and if you want to thrown down an “or else” at the end of that – all the better. Some things should have “or else” at the end of the sentence.
Will.i.am May 4, 2012, 11:43 am
I’m wishy washy on ultimatums. I kinda feel once you are at that point, in a matter that is this important and this sensitive, your boat has already been taking on water for quite some time. I’ve never been much of an ultimatum guy, since the last time I used one. I used it with my last ex, and she obliged to my feelings about her guy friends, but there was a whole lot of resentment, and it was worse if I didn’t want to walk the line on any issue she had.
Looking back, that’s the issue I have with them personally. In my experience, it formed a lot of resentment and it put a lot of pressure on me. I’m sure before I die, I will have another ultimatum, but in the meantime, I rather go at the situation in a different way.
savannah May 4, 2012, 12:03 pm
I think there’s a different between putting up a black and white ultimatum and letting someone know just how severe or serious consequences will go with ____ actions, esp. if they seem to think things are peachy.
june May 4, 2012, 12:19 pm
Your ex resented you for your ultimatum because you guys shared different values and she felt more comfortable acting shady than respecting your feelings. That’s what ultimatums are good for–finding out whether your partner truly wants to be there for you, and moving on if they don’t. If they resent you for requesting something completely reasonable of them, that doesn’t make you “crazy,” it makes them not right for you. Try not to personalize the idea of an ultimatum with your one experience you had with your ex. It may be an ugly word with lots of baggage attached to the idea of it, but in reality, an ultimatum can help clarify one’s feelings and values and help a *good* relationship become stronger and more secure for all parties.
Will.i.am May 4, 2012, 8:27 pm
I can’t disagree with you on that one June. I think my area influences a lot of how I date, due to the outlook of dating is much more close minded. You kind of fit in this cookie cutter mold and there’s not a lot of diversity by any means. It’s as if we are 20 to 30 years behind. Interracial relationships are still somewhat frowned upon, so you can see a glimpse of why I’ve somewhat built my own mold of thoughts and ideas. I’m pretty open minded, but many people here are gluttons for punishment.
I’d agree that ultimatums are important. I just think an ultimatum at the level of this letter, you may ultimately already know your answer. If you’re thinking and this wound up about something, wouldn’t your heart tell your brain what’s up? Am I wrong for thinking like this, since I’m not totally sure?
FireStar May 4, 2012, 12:28 pm
I agree with you that an ultimatum by itself won’t solve anything and could lead to resentment. To me the first step to fixing whatever is underlying the bad behaviour is to stop the bad behaviour. If you can’t even do that – there really is nothing to salvage.
savannah May 4, 2012, 12:19 pm
Also on the word crazy and women/men: You’re really correct about how some men use the word at women, and there has been a slew of articles about it in the last few years. This is my favorite article so far, I’m sure a lot of people have seen it already but it relates to this LW if shes got the ‘crazy women’ label going on in her head.
kerrycontrary May 4, 2012, 11:00 am
I would be so hurt if my significant other met a woman from his past, that he admitted he had feelings for, behind my back. Your fiance shouldn’t meet with ANY woman for drinks without telling you, especially not one that he used to be (probably still is) attracted to. My gut feeling is that there is something going on here that shouldn’t be. Oh, and I agree with Wendy that most couples tell each other more than enough detail about their day to day life. My boyfriend and I are long distance and he knows every stupid detail of my day, including the crazy people I sat next to on the metro and what I ate for lunch. Him saying that he “forgot” to tell you is such a cop out.
Nectarine May 4, 2012, 11:05 am
Yeah, listen to the people here who are telling you that this isn’t normal.
1.) Scott is continuing to get together with Amber, who he only met up in the first place for closure? That’s not closure, that’s reconnecting, which isn’t necessarily bad, except for the fact that he’s actively keeping you apart (NOT NORMAL).
2.) He says he doesn’t want you to meet because he’s afraid she’ll be mean to you (NOT NORMAL). Some people have questioned why he would even be friends with someone like that. Some have called bullshit on the whole thing. Here’s the thing, LW: it’s one of the two (and neither is good). Either he’s choosing to continue a friendship with someone who he knows is such a nasty bitch that she would insult the woman he loves, or he’s making that fact up to cover up something that’s presumably worse (NOT NORMAL).
3.) Oh, and by the way, she’s the type of person to sleep with married men (NOT NORMAL).
This is unpleasant, but I’ve seen situations like this in the past, and they never ended well. Almost every time, the worst was true.
I’m not going to say it’s time to MOA, and I’m not going to say something is definitely going on. But at best, he’s putting his friendship with a woman of questionable character above the feelings of the woman he plans to marry, and that’s a pretty shitty best-case-scenario.
Mel May 4, 2012, 11:35 am
PLEASE get tested.
kerrycontrary May 4, 2012, 11:39 am
“But at best, he’s putting his friendship with a woman of questionable character above the feelings of the woman he plans to marry, and that’s a pretty shitty best-case-scenario.”
This is the best summary of the situation!
ReginaRey May 4, 2012, 11:47 am
Agreed. When that’s your best case scenario, I really think MOAing is the only good option you have left.
Will.i.am May 4, 2012, 11:46 am
Thanks Nectarine for bringing up a point I forgot to address. No guy wants to meet up for closure. Does anyone want to meet up for closure? I don’t know. Closure to me is when you breakup and you reevaluate what happened. If you are meeting up for closure, you are looking to see if there’s still chemistry between the two of you. Nectarine, you get the gold star from me today!
cporoski May 4, 2012, 12:56 pm
I know you are right. But don’t you want to look back and wonder what the hell happened sometimes?
katie May 4, 2012, 2:52 pm
i agree- but high school? do you ever look back to high school and wonder what the hell happened and actually want to contact those old romances?? i hope not. especially in you freaking thirties!! i cannot get over that fact of this letter… this man is in his thirties, pining after a high school crush. i just cant get past it.
rachel May 4, 2012, 1:44 pm
Tax Geek May 4, 2012, 11:32 am
Just to think about this from the other side for a minute. You might want to talk to him about why he’s doing this. Is there something bothering him in his relationship with the LW?
If he is seeking this attention out, maybe he feels he is missing something. It doesn’t make it any less troublesome. But just dumping on him and telling him he needs to change probably won’t help unless there is some knowledge for why he is doing this.
savannah May 4, 2012, 12:00 pm
I feel like that is step two in this process. He first needs to realize his actions are putting his relationship in jeopardy before they can have a D&M about what their own relationship is lacking. So it’s not that people are suggesting he get ‘dumped on’ but rather he is at best clueless (but really, come on) and at worst really thinks he can get away with disrespecting her and their relationship in this way.
Jubietta May 4, 2012, 11:42 am
If I look at this from a “wants and needs” point of view it makes me wonder what Fiance needs that he doesn’t have in his life. What does he get out of this toxic friendship with “Amber” that’s worth the price he’s going to pay in his primary relationship? (That is not a reflection on the LW – no partner is ever responsible to fill his/her fiancé’s/spouse’s every need – it’s a statement that Fiance is not in touch with his own guts enough to be honest with himself or LW.)
I have a 26-year monogamous relationship that went through a rough patch like this a couple of years ago: old friend (in trouble) reconnecting with my spouse that twigged me out because it violated my boundaries. Even with years of good communication history it took me multiple angry/tearful drawn-out conversations before Mr. J got the message through his sometimes-thick skull that there would be negative consequences for both of us if he continued to see/handle her one-on-one. That was painful, and it uncovered some stuff that Mr. J didn’t want to look at. When he finally did, it got better for him, he chose to put our marriage first (his fully-informed and fully-independent choice), and she got incredibly ugly and blamed it on me – too bad, so sad, now go away b!tc#! It was a lot of work…and completely worth every tear, every hour of lost sleep, and every minute of anxiety because I stood up for my needs, he’s doing better at meeting his needs in a constructive way, and our relationship is stronger.
LW, you can take a stand for yourself and be compassionate to Fiance at the same time. Be sure to keep your needs firmly in mind (they are not crazy) while you ask him to look at his relationship with “Amber” (he’s 30+, a big boy, he can do it) and have him tell you what he gets there that he could be getting somewhere healthier. It will likely be something that’s easier to get from her than anywhere else (and I won’t even speculate what it is because I’d like to respect his individuality and that’s a good thing for you to do as his partner as well…don’t assume, ask and listen) so making the choice to get that need met elsewhere will include effort/work. Give him a reason to do that work by explaining the honest/actual consequences for his continuing to see her the way he has. Then you have to let him be his own adult and make up his own mind…your relationship will be stronger for it, or it might be over. Either way, I think it’s better for you than feeling the way you describe.
demoiselle May 4, 2012, 12:00 pm
Another option is that Amber herself isn’t actually all that evil, and the LW’s fiance is afraid that if Amber meets the LW and gets to know her as a real person, all chances of getting into Amber’s pants will be on hold. Although there are really amoral people out there, I’d be suspicious about any guy who paints his exes/past crushes in such unattractive colors, but still wants to be with them.
rainbow May 4, 2012, 12:35 pm
Yes, this is what I was going to say. How do we know Amber is not nice? Scott said so. How reasonable and honest has he been so far? Not much.
Maybe she’s doesn’t even want Scott and all inappropriate moves come from him, and that’s what he doesn’t want LW to see. Maybe he told her he wasn’t seeing anyone, or that the LW was a mean crazy controlling bitch, or something like that.
Maybe she’s not even screwing the married dude, and Scott is paving the way to be able to blame her when LW finds out about them, turning Amber into some hubby-snatching monstah and himself into the victim. It wouldn’t be the first time.
va-in-ny May 4, 2012, 12:05 pm
Not to go straight to fear mongering, but one of the biggest red flags I completely ignored (stupid mistake) with my ex-fiancé is that I was never introduced to any of his friends. There was always some excuse, “We spend so little time together, just me and you. Why would I want to see all those other people when I can just be with you!?” bla bla bla bla bla yappity yap yap yap… In reality, it would have really messed things up with his girlfriend if he brought his fiancé around.
Get to the bottom of this relationship (whatever type of relationship that may be) and nip it in the bud NOW. If you want to have a prayer at saving your relationship, DO NOT WAIT or be passive about this. You should never be embarrassed about an emotional reaction you have to a situation. It’s your best gague – USE those feelings and force him to buck up. And if he doesn’t put you first? Well, you’ve got more problems than just “Amber”.
demoiselle May 4, 2012, 12:08 pm
And if he tells you you’re crazy or insecure or “that girl” for having reasonable reactions to a clearly shady situation, or accuses you of manipulating him if you get tearful about it, then pay very close attention to those behaviors and remember that you have dozens of voices here telling you that your reactions are perfectly reasonable.
va-in-ny May 4, 2012, 12:11 pm
I am personally of the belief that if anyone tells you your emotional reaction is “crazy” or “stupid” or whatever, they’re a real ass. We can’t help how we react to things emotionally. There’s a way to deal with someone who is having an inappropriate reaction, but it is certainly not by dismissal. It should be met with open communication and compassion. ALWAYS.
kerrycontrary May 4, 2012, 12:44 pm
I completely agree, anytime someone throws out the “crazy” word run the other way!
ReginaRey May 4, 2012, 12:24 pm
So was he engaged to you first? Or did he have a girlfriend already, then he met you and “proposed?” This is a compelling story! And I’m glad things have worked out for you since then.
va-in-ny May 4, 2012, 1:03 pm
Yeah, we were engaged first. The other girl thought we broke up before they started dating. Bringing me around to that friend circle would have really messed up their relationship, I guess. Ha! You can read the whole bit here – (It’s in a comment below the post)
Sue Jones May 4, 2012, 12:09 pm
I have a friend from high school I reconnected with on FB. I had not seen him or had any contact with him in over 30 years. Back in the day we had sort of what I would call an attraction/repulsion thing going on. Both of us sort of attracted but both young, geeky, and inexperienced and scared. So nothing ever happened really… in fact when I went to “friend” him when I was reconnecting with people I knew when I first discovered FB (you know how all your old high school friends find you and then you see others you are curious about on their friends list) I was sure he would not accept my friend request – because I still thought he “hated” me. He accepted it immediately and over a long slow period of time we started communicating. We do very different things but have a bit in common in our viewpoints, etc, it turns out – When I went back for a visit we agreed to meet up and it was a nice visit. We stayed in touch, etc. and now we always try to get together when we are in each other’s city. We have both been in long term relationships/marriages and this could have played out strangely with our spouses. My husband is extremely trusting so no issue there, but what worked for us was that my friend and my husband became FB friends, and then his wife friended me and I got to meet her for dinner one time when I went back to my hometown. My friend and I still get together alone, and it seems fine.
What I would recommend the LW do is to friend Amber on FB and offer to get together with her for lunch or something just to meet her. If there is a weird unfriendly vibe from her, then she knows something is amiss. It could be totally your fiance’s issue, and that certainly needs to be dealt with. But be proactive!
Micah May 4, 2012, 12:25 pm
I want to give a thumbs up to every comment on here, and to Wendy’s advice, too.
This sounds remarkably like my ex. I think I drafted a letter to Wendy almost identical to this but never sent it because I dumped him first. Except he was 21 and a complete child. This man is in his thirties and should presumably know better.
LW, I don’t want to say you should MOA just yet, but this is a big test for your relationship with your fiance. Tell him how much this friendship bothers you and why. Explain that his actions and choices are jeopardizing your trust in him, and that is unacceptable if he truly wishes to marry you. I’m sure revisiting this friendship is very exciting for him. I will not argue that he has acted inappropriately towards you regarding this woman, but men are sometimes (often?) a little dense, as everyone can be at some point or another. If you spell out just why you are so put off by this friendship, you are doing your part to restore communication and trust. His reaction is what should tell you how to proceed. If he can understand that he’s been acting suspicious and hurtful, as well as why his actions caused so much anxiety for you, then perhaps he just caught up in the excitement of rekindling this long-lost friendship and wasn’t thinking things through. Of course that doesn’t make how he’s been acting excusable, but still, I’d be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there. However, if he comes up with excuses or tries to turn this on you in any way, then that shows you where his priorities really are and that is unacceptable. I hope this works out for you.
Ugh, now I’m seriously considering sending this column to my former BF, but that’s a little bit too passive aggressive.. Right?
savannah May 4, 2012, 12:32 pm
I want to do that with a lot of the nytimes modern love columns- A few in the last couple months have been eerily extremely close to home for my last relationship/breakup. Serious love/hate relationship with self control.
Micah May 4, 2012, 12:41 pm
Oh, man, so true. Whenever I restrain myself from linking him to this or that article I pat my mature adult self on the back. But sometimes I want to give in to the catty, insecure monster he helped create.
savannah May 4, 2012, 12:45 pm
It takes so much energy to actively not care about someone!
demoiselle May 4, 2012, 1:30 pm
Yes. I still worry about what kind of life my ex is having, even though he was an abusive person. I loved him in the past, and hate the fact that he continues to manufacture misery for himself and others.
But that’s why I cut off all connections with him. Now I wonder, but there is no easy way to open the door to the relationship again. Healthier for all around. Sometimes, reinitiating a relationship for “closure” just means opening yourself up for more trouble.
Micah May 4, 2012, 1:40 pm
Absolutely. I wouldn’t call my ex emotionally abusive, but he still managed to mess with my head and leave me with a mountain of self-esteem issues. I tried to remain friends after the breakup, but it was too hard. I couldn’t move past him while he was still there. So I agree, sometimes seeking closure just reopens old wounds.
But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to him realize what a magnificent doucherocket he was for the entirety of our relationship. And if it was through my doing, that would be all the more satisfying. (Me? Vindictive? Don’t be silly.)
demoiselle May 4, 2012, 2:16 pm
The thing that is hard to accept is that most likely in our exes’ world (the one they are the center of, as we each tend to be limited by our own point of view) they are innocent. People don’t like to look at how bad their behavior is, and are very talented at rationalizing.
I am too. I sent the abusive ex’s ex-wife (many months after the end of the marriage) information about Lundy Bancroft’s book about abusive men with the note that it helped me understand what had happened. I never contacted her before, and never followed up (and never expected a response). I’m sure that my action was as self-serving (id’ing in what way the guy was a creep) as it was genuinely trying to be helpful. But at the time, I was convinced that my motivation was pure.
Human beings are strange.
GertietheDino May 4, 2012, 12:30 pm
I am a big believer in the old adage, “secrets don’t make friends,” in your case fiancees. He’s up to something shady. Go with your gut and talk about it.
Rebecca May 4, 2012, 12:54 pm
Wendy’s advice is spot on, as always. Personally I think the LW needs to MOA.
You aren’t crazy, you mistrust him and her for good reasons. Reading your letter reminded me of a really dark place in my life. As someone who has cheated (not my finest hour) and also been cheated on (karma works) my first thought as I read this one was “been there, done that, got the STD tests to prove it”. All of the things that your fiance is telling about “Amber” are the same things I would tell my ex about the “friend” I was spending so much time with.
From my experience I think that if he hasn’t already cheated physically, which is highly unlikely, at the very least he has cheated on you emotionally…and you know that, otherwise you wouldn’t have written to Wendy. Advice is only part of the battle, now it’s up to you, because only you can decide if that is a deal breaker for you or not.
P.S. Nope not the only one that thought of that case. I used to live in the area where he was from and arrested.
Samantha May 4, 2012, 12:18 pm
When someone makes you feel crazy about your fears, especially when they’re not irrational in the case of this LW, then the relationship needs to be examined in a big way. It’s such a cruel thing to do, and such a subtle form of manipulation that can lead to such huge, long-term heartbreak.
LW, if you’re boyfriend won’t let you meet this woman and continues to see her and tell you after the fact, consider moving on – or at least postponing the wedding.
bittergaymark May 4, 2012, 6:43 pm
Everybody is sure suspicious of the boyfriend. But honestly, for the life of me, I can’t figure out why he ever would have mentioned any of this to his girlfriend if there was actually something going on. If he was going to carry on this illicit affair as so many of you have suggested — why spill the beans then? No, I simply don’t see any logic to it at all..
AnotherWendy May 4, 2012, 9:20 pm
Couple of reasons why he may have mentioned her: 1. He’s so Hung up on Amber he wanted to say her name out loud, 2. He is testing out LWs reaction to see how much he may or may not be able to get away with, 3. He knows if Amber gives him an opening he will jump on it and leave LW in the dust, so he’s laying some ground work (” I didn’t mean to fall in love with her but you know how I mentioned I was seeing her every once in awhile, and well it just happened….”).
bittergaymark May 4, 2012, 9:50 pm
Eh, all of those are trumped by the sheer fact that had he just shut up about it, he could easily have had his cake and eaten it, too. Because of that, I simply don’t believe that he is having any of that other cake.
I actually, take this letter at face value. I think he is probably just friends with her because she is bizarre and dramatic. He knows that she would be a complete and total bitch to his girlfriend, and so wants to keep them apart. Sometimes, it really can be THAT simple. PS — Even if he IS interested in this other girl, she CLEARLY isn’t interested in him…
Violet May 5, 2012, 3:05 am
I can understand where you’re coming from, but it is just as presumptuous to say that the friend is not into him at all, because we don’t have any of her story that has been seen in person. That whole side of the story is blocked to us, and LW can only tell us what he fiance is telling her. So there really is no way for us to clearly tell from this letter because the LW cannot meet her!
bittergaymark May 5, 2012, 4:04 am
Maybe. But to me, if she was so interested in him, for starters, she wouldn’t be married to one guy AND sleeping with another… Hey, that’s not one, but two guys she is banging instead of him. So yeah, I simply doubt very much that she is into him at all. A fact that would probably be borne out by the fact that she is a 10 and he is lowly 5 or 6. He likes to bask in the thrall of her beauty… She, meanwhile, enjoys being admired, but in the end really just craves the hands-off attention…
oldie May 5, 2012, 3:18 pm
On that I’m quite sure you are correct. He is very into his friend and would dump LW in an instant to be with her, but his long friendship/emotional relationship with his friend has never become physical, because she isn’t into him. He might not like her much if they actually got together. She is in the fantasy realm, where he is fixated on his first impressions of her and has blocked out all the negaitves he has since learned from the erotic zone of his brain. LW is his favorite woman among those he can have. The friend is his absolute crush and life’s desire.
savannah May 4, 2012, 10:03 pm
Sometimes (most of the time I would think) people don’t know they are about to be in an illicit affair, its not often planned out from the beginning. I think you’re giving the bf too much credit in the scheming department.
bittergaymark May 4, 2012, 10:07 pm
Yeah. Totally. Those schemes are hopelessly implausible…
Temperance May 5, 2012, 12:46 pm
I had an ex who cheated on me with another woman. He would talk about her, mention seeing her at work, etc. I think he was trying to put me at ease to their hanging out so that he could get away with more.
Good thing I’m not stupid and figured it out pretty quickly and dumped his ass.
AnotherWendy May 4, 2012, 9:28 pm
LW, neither one of you should have a friend that the other is not allowed to just meet. That is a Big Red Flag. Whether he has feelings for her or not, just the fact that you’re not allowed to meet her is bizarre. Tell him you want to meet her because its been bugging you but you want to put it behind you now and so you need to see her just once to have closure.
Bossy Italian Wife May 5, 2012, 11:56 am
Such a red flag indeed and your man needs a wake up call. A legitimate fear for you may be that if you lay down the smack down on this little friendship of his with “Amber” then he’ll be mad or even choose to leave you over it…. let him go then!
Seriously this woman is bad news for your man and your relationship. He knows it or he wouldn’t tuck her away in some other area of his life that excludes you. I totally applaud you for being so trusting and understanding–you sound like precisely the kind of person who IS ready for marriage and who doesn’t jump to conclusion. But keep in mind, emotional affairs are JUST as bad as physical ones.
Maybe your fiancé just needs a swift kick in the pants to realize he is living in the past with an attention hound who could potentially ruin his awesome relationship. If he doesn’t see that, he’s undeserving of your love.
…and I would never allow my husband to be friends with someone I “couldn’t” meet. And yes, I said “allow.” LOL
DMR May 6, 2012, 5:12 am
Awesome advice column, Wendy. Possibly the best one I have read here. Right. On. The Money.
And.. perhaps I should just leave it at that, but I can’t resist adding my own personal element here.
I hate to admit it, but I’ve been that guy. I’ve been the guy longing for the “one that got away,” and not facing up to it or admitting it. Concerned Fiancée, he wants her. He wants her bad. She makes him go all gooey and warm inside and he just can’t help it. Of course, she’s not that interested in return, she’s probably stringing him along and is only doing it for the kicks.
She ain’t going to screw him…. or if she does, she will make him work hard for it. But Wendy is dead on target with one thing: the reason he doesn’t want you there is because you’ll see the chemistry. It will be obvious.
laxhaxtax June 1, 2012, 10:08 am
This may be an odd couple to bring into this discussion but…….Jennifer Lopez dated for a short time Mark Anthony and then left him for someone else(her dating history is not something I keep up with)so he married and produced two children. When she became free he dumped his wife overnight and married J L. Now they are separated and getting divorced. Is he over her? Who knows but his first wife would probably have a lot to say to this woman about a man who behaves this way. I think if this Amber ever gave him even a small green light the fiance’ would be history. I think she should demand a meeting with Amber and if it is not forthcoming she should break her engagement because at some point he is probably going to break her heart.
laxhaxtax June 1, 2012, 10:16 am
One more item. A neighbor down the street went to his high school reunion without his wife. Came home on Sunday night and told her he had hooked up with his high school girlfriend that he had always loved and was gone by Monday. Left a wife and two teenagers behind. I just read that old high school romances that broke up and then hooked up later have an 85% success rate in marriage. There is something about those feelings. Thank goodness my husband and I did not have that issue but I have married friends who still yearn for the hs boy that got away.
Fermina January 15, 2014, 6:06 pm
I feel strongly compelled to respond to this for several reasons:
First of all, I have to admit, I AM the friend in almost the exact situation I think, and I wanted to offer both perspectives and also ask for advice since you ladies seem to know how to handle matters of the heart…
We have known each other since high school, coming up on 10+ yrs. now and just for the record I got married too…
I want to say something that I know you will probably all rip my head off for saying, but I have to be honest now that I know: I have ALWAYS been mad about my Scott, and that is BECAUSE I was the one standing next to him when he became who he is! Plane and simple. Also? It took me until the last 3 years or so to know and be AWARE that I am mad about him. HOWEVER, all that said (at last), we have NEVER had sex, touched, cuddled, played footsie, talked about what sex would be like together or really sex in general, or even held hands. we never touch — there is waaay too much fire for all that! I am just a tomboy, and used to be “one of the guys” who grew up to be more attractive then those bozos thought I knew how to be. lol. II swear that on my child — and trust me I needed him a lot, because there were plenty of jealous females who tried to pick on me when I got pregnant, and even tried to start rumors about him being the real father and everything!
I want you to understand that this man was like my brother for the longest, and turned into my closest friend, who I could party with, sleep in the same bed with without touching, tell if I murdered someone and he would get my back and criticize me later… We were bonnie and clyde by default because of our friendship, yes, but also because he chose to be there for me, and I for him. The end.
NOW let me be real: I feel like you SHOULD be worried, because I’m not. I know he is in love with me, your damn skippy about that, but the ways I know? Only him and I know. Thats what I have on his girlfriend. That is why I stay away from him too. She doesn’t realize that what we have surpasses the physical. We have never needed to be sexual becuase our relationship is so very fulfilling even without it! He stayed next to me during my lowest times in life, and I let him pass me by. I’ve realized that now, so its literally war with a woman I don’t know or blame for loving him. lol. I know what he needs…Right now, he needs me — as a friend. He needs his girlfriend to be perfect too actually. 😉 Thats because who will he come running to when he needs to be able to tell me all the messed up things about his girlfriend,? and why he doesn’t see a future with her? He needs love too. I got the heart. She got the body. lol. I’ll be patient and get both someday, but I’m not low down enough to be a home wrecker thanks! If he leaves her, its DAMN SURE not over me, I’ve never boned that man — although he’s been through 2 pregnancies with me, and I hope to make that a 3rd n 4th after I get my man! lol. I know its dirty, but she’d do it too if she loved someone that much! She will hurt, and I am sorry, but I’m in no rush, and right now he isn’t in the mood to grow up yet anyway- otherwise he wouldn’t be living off of a woman who just lets him. And she isn’t the woman for him cuz if she was he wouldn’t be just living off her, he’d be providing FOR her… I’m a go getta though…and she better figure out how to motivate that man, or I will. lol. Don’t even NEED to have him physically here to do it either…lol. She’s screwed.
Yah long story short? You have very good reason to be scared. Ask him why she is getting a divorce. Maybe that’ll shed some light on it, cuz I got a divorce for all the right reasons – he cheated, lied, and abused me. My “friend” saw me through, and I can only HOPE he feels the way that I do. She has the title though…for now. ;}
Advice on what I should do? I have nothing against this woman, but I literally already know these things: He will spend time with me whenever I want to, he will go out of his way for me, he has shared things with me he probably won’t as he gets older and jaded with other women, most of the happy adult memories he has (besides the length of his relationship with this girl) I know I am also in, which brings me to my last point, we have ALL the same mutual friends as each other in several states, and from way back forever. lol. I’d say she had it in the bag if he would introduce us, but he won’t so…She just has little to no chance. In one encounter I could pull out 20 inside jokes, contextual conversational references, and speak between every line in each to him directly. lol. Its like we have our own language…Touche.
He will come home. I know his plans for the future. :} Hope she does! Toodles ladies!
LadyinPurpleNotRed January 15, 2014, 6:18 pm
Wow. What a bitch.
Kate January 15, 2014, 6:26 pm
I love all the “lol”s. My favorite part of this whack rant: “I’m not low down enough to be a home wrecker thanks! If he leaves her, its DAMN SURE not over me, I’ve never boned that man — although he’s been through 2 pregnancies with me, and I hope to make that a 3rd n 4th after I get my man! lol.”
Fermina January 16, 2014, 1:10 pm
Thanks! :} Ill take bitch over pushover anyday.
Well behaved women rarely make history. Never forget that.
SummerRose January 18, 2014, 6:42 pm
Fermina, women who tend to be strong-willed don’t wait around forever for a guy to make up his mind,they’re strong enough to get on with their lives and live them. If a guy is truly interested in you, and only you, he won’t date another girl and then secretly pine for the one he truly wants. Again,your life isn’t a movie. And you ARE being a pushover,by letting others control your future.
And delusional. Who are you to decide his girlfriend isn’t’ the right one for him? It’s incredibly arrogant for you to assume you know better than your friend about what is and isn’t right for him.
YOu say he hasn’t grown up yet…well,neither have you. So…maybe you two ARE perfect for each other.
God. I feel sorry for the kids.
sissy January 16, 2014, 9:51 am
What i don’t understand is why your friend doesn’t just leave the women he is with. If you two are such a great match and, from what i could gather from your long comment, it sounds like he will end up with you at some point. Why doesn’t he just do that now? Why waste his time with someone else when he has you? I feel like you are trying to make excuses for your friends lack of commitment to you by making it sound like when he finally matures and sees the light he will go to you. And if you have known each other for 10+ years, you are in your mid 20’s now. So how long will you be willing to wait for him?? I think you should move on with your life and with that see how loyal your friend really is to you. As long as you keep in his life of course he will go to you. But once you move on with yours and he sees that, how willing will he be to reach out to you and keep that ‘bonnie and clyde’ connection? This all just sounds like an emotional affair with your friend.
Fermina January 16, 2014, 12:36 pm
Just now reading your comment. After I wrote this I realized that I should clarify:
He IS just being a great friend to me. Which is what I was trying to say from the start! He has only EVER been a friend. And that is without any doubt. Thank you for seeing my point!
Yall forget — Im mad over the man…BUT…I have NOT always been. I ADMITTED clearly that I just owned that 3 yrs. Ago…
SO Sissy is right. If he is happy with making her happy for the rest of his life, Im genuinely thrilled for him! I never had the physical, so I cant miss it. All I truly miss is my best friend. Just find it ironic that what apparently makes wives happy is a husband without good friends. I feel Pissed and enraged that his girl (and yall) could attack a woman who has actually defended her to he himself! He has NOT talked to me about her badly or anything, he just never talks about her at all or says 2 words. Iwhen he was in town alone after she left, she couldnt have been up there 2 hrs and hes already texting me like k wanna see you. He wanted to hang out every weekend, and even asked to get rides places at 11pm from me. I knew how she prolly felt – been a faithful wife to a womanizing hubby-so I just told him how I had a crush on him,, that i wasnt done divorcing yet, and that I was sorry I felt that way. Im not saying yall have to like us, or be happy about the relationship, but YOU only control YOU. So I turned my phone off every time he called and only saw him 3 times over 3 months. He stayed until right after my birthday, and I think it hurt him that I didnt want him ariund, so he left without saying goodbye. Now hes back at his place, still with her. Have a little respect, some of us really honestly do. If he comes to me, so be it. But its not going down sloppy like that. I was just mad (a henpecker myself actually) you henpeck your men – they will leave you…therefore giving me a real shot at “my man” as he is apparently already pretty much being called anyway? He prolly does it cuz he gets blamed anyway -my ex did! I have a right to dream he could be mine, but I would never take him. Where Iis the worth I that? So I can wonder all my life who the next LW or Me is that will trot off with him in tow next?
If we were friends before her, we shoukd be allowed to be friends after, or I might become his new pillow to cry on – as I should. But pillows belong on beds. And I dont do that with my male friends unfortunately. Lol respect runs deep. Thas all.
So who do y’all wanna marry at the end of the day? A charming stranger who you work into the tapestry? Or your best friend. Dont lie!!! Lol. I had to do just that with a charming stranger to realize who I woukd walk through hell for, and who already has with me.
I am just BLESSED to say its the same man.
Fermina January 16, 2014, 2:32 am
I’m the bitch? For stating the truth? You ALL jumped on the bandwagon to bag this man AND a woman you don’t even know online for the hell of it just because you can probably sympathize with her situation somehow right? lol. Guess what, me too. Been a lover, a friend, a mistress, and a wife. Now I’m just divorced, and miserable, because I’m NOT alone. I can scroll down the list just like you can ladies, and any number of them would be willing to oblige the good ol pipe cleanin any woman gets to needing when she is single. If your happy with your rabbits, then you tricks are all for kids (boys hopefully). I am a grown woman, and I like the real thing…and babies. lol. SO.
And just FYI Kate? A home wrecker is someone who RUINS someone elses home…HOME. As in marriage…under the same roof? In the same…HOUSE. lol. They are NOT married.,. and don’t have a HOME together. He was still “allowed” to kick it with me when I was married, my ex didn’t give a damn…BECAUSE I introduced him to my Scott. We have LITERALLY nothing to hide. We have never done jack$h!t!
Y’all are what the world typically likes to call: “Stuck on Hater”…And that is the reason for all the LOL’s! Y’all sound like hen-pecking, boring, no-having-for-a-reason type of women. I got nothing but love for this man, and neither does she, so whats her problem with us being friends? YOUR problem is that she is a BETTER fit…I mean friend (lol ;} Oops!) than either of you could clearly ever be to even your man. If you love someone, try letting them have their freedom, and when they get home? they should love you so much all they care to do is jump you instead of hearing y’all dumb asses talk and complain about what “bitchy friends” he has anyway. lol. All you do is send him home to me faster! Thanks! lol!
Your poor boyfriends, fiances, and husbands. No wonder they need a damn break!
starpattern January 16, 2014, 11:22 am
SummerRose January 18, 2014, 6:48 pm
This guy is a hell of a lot smarter than you and his girlfriend. You haven’t cast a great light on him (clearly you’re a bad judge of character when it comes to picking guys). On the one hand…he’s getting sex regularly from his girlfriend.
On the other hand…he has you, a loyal and devoted little puppy dog, ready to jump as soon as the relationship with the girlfriend is over (assuming it ever ends).
Fermina January 16, 2014, 2:37 am
And just so you know Kate – when you really LOVE someone, and you CARE about their well being, you don’t go destroying things based on ASSUMPTIONS. lol. You all pretty much covered that, and I’d say y’all look like some straight asses – don’t get mad at me, I bet your men agree! SOME women are beautiful for way more reasons than any of you pea brains can imagine – from the inside OUT…But only to women worthy of spilling pearls before…lol. You don’t have to use your cooch to get what you want babe! TRUST ME. You might just be doing it wrong. Or your man is a dog. lol. That either, but your a bitch…guess real knows real eh?
Kate January 16, 2014, 6:56 am
SummerRose January 18, 2014, 6:52 pm
Fermina,you make complete sense.
The best way for anyone to get a significant other will be to wait around,at all costs,until they grow up and finally see the light. Because we know what is best for our crushes, they don’t have the brains to figure that out for themselves.
joanna January 18, 2014, 10:50 am
WTF did I just read?
AliceInDairyland January 18, 2014, 12:01 pm
Hahaha, best comment.
SummerRose January 18, 2014, 7:11 pm
I liked one of Fermina’s comments. This whole situation was very entertaining.
Cassie B January 18, 2014, 7:20 pm
I don’t UNDERSTAND why people CAPITALIZE random WORDS when they are responding to something on THE internet.
iseeshiny January 19, 2014, 11:25 am
The are doing a Nick Cage impression?