“My Boyfriend Slept with Two Sisters and Lied About It”
A year and a half into the relationship I found out that he had slept with a friend in his inner circle — a girl I ended up befriending and spent a lot of time with — a girl that at the time was his roommate’s ex. He slept with this girl as soon as she and the roommate broke up (the roommate had no idea). I was devastated by his lies and the fact that this girl had her birthday parties at my apartment, she ate dinner with my mother, and my boyfriend even suggested that we move into a communal home with her and her live-in boyfriend!!!!
I stayed with my boyfriend and a month later I discovered that he had slept with the girl’s older sister just 2-3 months before he slept with her. I would never ever have dated him if I knew any of this stuff. I think the fact that he slept with two sisters one right after the other is disgusting, wrong, gross and really slutty. But I’m especially angry because he lied and led me on for a year and half with this chick in my life.
I made him cut off all contact with her, which he did. He told me he regretted what happened with her, which is why he hid it and moved on, but his initial reaction to my freaking out about all this was to claim that I had lied about being more liberal than I really am. He did apologize but I feel like he apologized because I basically made him, and he cut off contact with this girl because I made him. If I hadn’t, she’d still be over my house today.
My boyfriend and I are still living together and I love him, but I feel like I’ve been duped. I only had one partner before him and he took advantage of me, so this boyfriend was supposed to be special and not a liar. Even though he is loyal, has never cheated on anyone, and I don’t have any fear of him cheating on me, I still feel cheated. If I could go back in time, I would never have chosen a guy that did the disgusting things he did. Is that judgmental? Of course, but I was entitled to be with a person who was honest with me.
I went through therapy (I have a tendency towards depression) and have fought to keep him, but I feel traumatized and overwhelmed and sometimes I just hate him so much. It’s very conflicting. I know I could leave him but I am attached and in love. What should I do? — Conflicted in Love/Hate
I understand that you’re upset that your boyfriend lied to you. You feel duped, led on, and like you’ve now invested so much of your time and emotions into a relationship that quite possibly has no future. But I’m sorry to tell you, if what you’re looking for is someone who has no past, a person who will never ever let you down, and a relationship that comes with guarantees, this won’t be the last time you’ll be severely disappointed. You’re asking for the impossible.
There is no one out there who’s perfect. There’s nobody for you who will be everything you want him to be all the time. There is no guy who has lived at all who hasn’t done something in his past he isn’t at least a little ashamed of. Most importantly, there is no one in the whole world who, upon you meeting him, can promise he’ll never hurt you or let you down and not be proven a liar eventually.
I say all this because I suspect what really bothers you is that your boyfriend has failed to be your version of perfect, and the conflict you feel now is whether to stay with an imperfect man whom you love, or move on from him and continue searching for your version of perfect. It’s my job here to caution you that your version of perfect doesn’t exist. People are flawed. People disappoint those they care about. People make mistakes. If you want a happy, successful relationship, you need to work towards more compassionate acceptance of those mistakes and flaws. You need to learn to forgive and move on.
Does that mean you should move on as your boyfriend’s girlfriend? Not necessarily. It may be that your boyfriend’s past is a true dealbreaker for you. Maybe you can forgive him for lying but be unable to continue a relationship with someone whose past actions you think mar his character. That’s a decision only you can make. You have to decide whether to judge his character on how he lives presently — as a loyal boyfriend whom you trust — or on his past — as a man who slept with two sisters back-to-back and wasn’t forthcoming about it. If you can’t get past his personal history and forgive him for not being completely honest with you, you need to MOA.
Loving him won’t change his past. Hating him won’t make him more apologetic or more committed to being your idea of perfect. There really, truly is nothing you can do to change who he is or what he’s done. You can only move forward and if you know in your heart you can’t move forward with someone whose actions don’t jive with your personal moral compass, it’s unfair for you to stay with him. Just beware that the expectations you seem to have are going to be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to find in someone else. Even someone with a flawless past is going to screw up some time.
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If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, you can send me your letters at wendy(AT)dearwendy.com.
It sounds like you and your boyfriend have different values when it comes to casual sex when not in a committed relationship. You told him your values from the start and told him if he was different that would be a dealbreaker. I think you’re at the point where it’s a dealbreaker not because you have different values but because he lied about it and hid the fact that he had different values. It sounds like you’re at the point where you no longer respect him but you’re stil emotionally attached. You’re in a limbo land where you’re not happy with him and hate the idea of being without him. You’ll stay in this miserable state until you either decide his past is the past and it’s okay or until you move on. I’m guessing you’ll move on because lack of respect kills relationships dead.
You know, I’m someone with sort of a “crazy” past. I was a bit of a wild girl back in my college years, and I definitely made some mistakes in judgment – things I did for love or lust or impulse or the need to feel alive. But that’s not me anymore. Now, I’m a loving girlfriend in a stable, long-term relationship who would never dream of cheating on or hurting my boyfriend. The person I was six years ago may have molded the person I am today, but it would dismay me if someone judged me now based on THAT girl.
Everyone has a past, and I think you need to spend some time working on your acceptance of that. It’s extremely unlikely that you will find a man without a prior history that – in your case – will make you a little uncomfortable. Perhaps your extreme rejection of men who have had crazy experiences is something you might want to talk to a therapist about. Some discomfort over a lover’s past is normal, but flat out refusing to get to know a potential suitor because of a few trists seems a little on the extreme side.
And while I don’t condone the lying, I suspect that your boyfriend lied to you because you TOLD him, flat out, that you wouldn’t date someone with a crazy past. I suspect that he was really starting to have feelings for you, or at least was extremely interested, and didn’t want to lose out on the chance to get to know you by mentioning a few things he did when he was younger. I’m guessing he assumed that if he told you about his female friend, you’d never consider dating him or break up with him, and so he chose the more preferable of the options – to fudge the truth. I don’t think there was malice there. I personally think you should talk things over with him, explain your feelings, and try to work on overcoming your insecurities about your partner’s past. Focus on the person that he is now. Try to realize that it might be a huge mistake to let go of an awesome person and great boyfriend for something he did as a younger, and perhaps wilder, man. And try to understand that no one is going to fit your expectations 100% of the time – people have flaws – and if you let go of every person who made some mistakes when they were in college, you’re going to find that you missed out on some excellent people.
I agree with you so much. I also went through a bit of a “wild” phase while I was trying to figure out who I was. I’ve had some “crazy” experiences as she puts it, but I have never been unfaithful or deceitful in any relationship and it would hurt so much to be judged based on a few things I when I was less mature, rather than the kind of girlfriend I am now.
I’ve never told my current boyfriend about some of things I got into and he’s never asked, nor have I asked him anything. Honestly, it’s nobody’s business! We entered into our relationship knowing each other’s relationship history and knowing that we were STD free, and that’s all that matters.
If he turned around after a year and a half together and “hated” me because of somebody I slept with before I even knew him… well that would be so hurtful.
LW, I just can’t imagine throwing away a good relationship because of somebody that the guy slept with, especially since you say you know he wouldn’t cheat on you. If you wanted somebody with no sexual history, you should’ve dated a virgin.
I think the difference is that you never told your boyfriend, and he never asked, but the LW specifically asked these types of questions, because it was a deal breaker for her, and he lied to her face about it.
i don’t always reveal things about my wilder past right away b/c i don’t want to be judged based on those actions. my logic is that if you know me for who i am, then the things i did in my past are just that, the past; however, if you know about those things before you really know me, then i worry that’s all you’ll see when you look at me. i have a suspicion that the boyfriend & i share a similar thought process.
But would you flat out lie if somebody asked you those questions, or would you just tell them, that you don’t feel comfortable talking about it?
i would probably flat out lie. if i said i didn’t feel comfortable talking about it, i think it would probably have the same effect of telling the truth & would only serve to spark their curiosity. it’s like when someone says they know something but can’t tell you, all you want to do is find out what they know!
once i feel more comfortable & secure, i would be inclined to reveal whatever wild thing i was nervous about you judging me for. granted, it would hurt more to have you judge & reject me after a relationship has developed; i guess it’s like the old saying: better to have loved & lost then to never have loved at all. but if that person is able to view it as some stupid thing from past & still continue on with the relationship, then i think i made the right move by not admitting it when it would’ve been a deal breaker in the beginning.
I can see your point. I also think the BF never intended on telling the LW though, which is also a problem, he hoped she would never find out, and it would just go away. At least you would plan on telling somebody later on down the line if they asked about it.
You all make excellent points, but the idea that the boyfriend put the LW in such a difficult position would be the dealbreaker for me. I too have a STORIED past and so have my favorite ex’s, but I make the decision to accept these things both in myself and others. The LW was entirely within her rights to decide where her “line” is, what she could and could not accept in a mate.
Though I might accept my friends acting in certain ways, I will not accept certain things in a romantic partner’s history. For example, a man who has been to strip clubs in a non-bachelor party situation. I think strip clubs are fine and I have no problem with people who patronize them, but I don’t want to be with the kind of man who made the choice to spend time in one, even if it was in the past. I don’t judge, I make choices based on what I can live with and what I can’t.
The fact that the bf LIED to the LW and then put her in a position where she befriended this girl and then felt like a fool was terrible. Someone mentioned that perhaps he “didn’t want to lose” the LW and lied about his past. So? Life means paying the piper. He made a decision and every decision has consequences, one of which was potentially losing a great girl. On top of his lies, he kept this person in his inner circle and let the LW, invite her into her life. How humiliating to know your MOTHER had dinner with the girl your boyfriend used to sleep with, especially knowing she likely has the same value system you do. In light of everything the LW wrote, I think it’s time she MOA. Yes people are imperfect and we all make mistakes, but some of our “mistakes” are worse than others. This man’s “mistakes” are pretty serious and quite frankly, not your everyday kind of “slip.”
I guess I feel if it was truly a deal-breaker for LW, she wouldn’t be writing in, she’d just MOA. And yet she hasn’t. LW needs to cut the guy loose or get over it. And yes, LW, you’re being judgmental.
People have pasts. People make mistakes. People shouldn’t lie about those things but he may have sensed your tendency to judge harshly and wanted to avoid the consequences. That didn’t work out so well for him though.
I agree with why you think the boyfriend never mentioned anything. It’s also likely that he didn’t see that incident as an issue anymore or maybe just didn’t think of it right away (maybe they both regretted it and chose to pretend it never happened afterwards). And it seems he probably had a different definition of what constituted “a crazy past” than she did. If someone asked if I had a crazy past, I’d look back and think “Well, no three-ways with midgets, no orgies with people who later confessed to being transexual, never killed anyone, I’ve paid my taxes on time, never had an intimate conversation at great length on the ideals of life and my future hopes and dreams with a lamp-post, I stopped having imaginary friends at the age of 4, and I’m fairly confident that the fly on the wall is not a government spy plotting to implant a tracking device in my bellybutton. Nope. Think I’m good. No crazy here.” But that’s just me. I guess people have different definitions of “crazy.”
I think that’s the problem right there, Mainer. Different definitions of crazy. Maybe he doesn’t consider what he did “crazy”, but she does. Well, how is he supposed to know that? He may have thought she meant stuff like swinging, threesomes, S&M… things that are generally considered not “vanilla” sex. If he just had regular sex with some people, well, that’s not that crazy.
Although he did lie about not sleeping with someone in his inner circle, which I do think is a breach of trust. When I was younger, I had a boyfriend who smoked, and he kept saying he would stop. I didn’t ask him to stop, but I did want him to. So I was very supportive of that, said I’d help him however he needed it, etc. So he stopped. About 3 years later, I found out he’d been smoking the whole time, and lying to me about it! I figured, if he can hide that, what else is he hiding? It’s true, once that trust has been breached, it’s very hard to get it back. And my bf lied for the same reason as the LW’s – to keep her. But it doesn’t matter the reason necessarily, because if you can’t trust someone, you can’t trust them.
Wow, I started out going one direction, and turned in completely the other. But I do think it comes down to trust, and whether you can trust him going forward. If not, then there’s no point sticking around.
That was my experience. If you can’t trust you’re over and done no matter how hard you try to hold it together.
I agree that trust is important. But I also think that the severity of the lie should be the gauge rather than just “it was a lie, doesn’t matter what it was.” Everyone lies. If we take a “zero tolerance” policy in lying, we would all live a very lonely life. For example, if he told her “of course those pants don’t make your butt look big,” that could be (hypothetically speaking) a lie. Was she looking for an honest opinion and trusted his honesty, but instead he let her go out in public where people judged her on her outfit choice? Should she dump him? Was the trust breached?
At the time, the information she was looking for did not change who he was or what he did. All it did was change how she *viewed* him. Now, without that information, if she can view him in such a good light that it allows her to fall in love with him, how does his “lie” change that? How does that piece of information (or lack thereof) change who he is as a person *now*? The person she loves now. He is the same person she was in love with yesterday. I don’t think this relationship was started on the foundation of a lie. I think the LW had some pretty high standards going in and the bf knew he was better than the things that disqualified him. He knew he had more to offer if she’d just give him the chance. And he did, they fell in love. In that sense, I think his motivations in “lying” were noble. I think the LW is now conflicted because she is going against something she previously believed in. She is still with him, so she’s wondering if she’s lying to herself now, wondering if she should stick to her guns or follow her heart. I think that even though he did lie to her, the LW should realize that what they have now is bigger than that and she would not be with the person she loves today if he had told her the truth on their first date. If you were to ask her to weight the good and bad of their *entire* relationship, I think all the good times they had makes their time together worth while. Time that would not have existed without a lie.
the problem is the LW had a right to know at the time who she was getting involved in. She has now built a life and made choices and taken a path down a road that she in all likelihood would not have been on and is built on falsehoods. When you lie to someone you take away their ability to make an informed choice and no one has the right to deny another person that basic entitlement. Finding out that a person was not who they told you they were, changes things.
You’re basing the situation on a few assumptions. If these are true, then the lie should be her deal breaker and she should walk away without giving it a second thought:
1. That she regrets the path she has chosen and the part of her life she has built with him.
2. That taking a different path than you normally otherwise would have is a bad thing.
3. That this one lie was his defining characteristic. Meaning, this piece of information is what made him the person he is rather than something he just did, and now that she knows the truth, he is a complete and whole different person in her eyes.
I don’t see how you can say the LW “had a right to know…who she was getting involved with” when just about every relationship ends because someone was not who the other thought they were. What happened to those people’s rights? Or did that right never really exist, and nobody was truly “entitled” to anything; they only thought they were. In a perfect world, two people would sit down and exchange life-binders so they can be aware and conscious of all the decions, good and bad, their potential significant other did. Everyone would know the other in their entirety and things such as “dates” or “relationship milestones” would have no need to exist because we were able to make an informed decision on whether we could see ourselves with that person so early on. But unfortunately, that is not the world we live in. We make decisions based on the information provided and we hope things work out. In their situation, things actually worked out. He wasn’t a bad person or the wrong guy for her. Had she listened to her “rule” before, she would have been wrong. She had a negative association of people with “a crazy past.” If her associations of those types of people were actually correct, she would have seen it with this guy in other areas and they would not have made it as far as they have. But the fact that the only thing standing between the relationship working and not working was her self-imposed “rule” leads me to believe it never really mattered in the first place.
I’m willing to bet that if you asked the LW if she could go back in time and have him answer truthfully, consequently resulting in her never giving him a second thought and therefore never having experienced the love they shared from that point forward, she would say no.
you can make that bet- but she is writing in complaining so i wouldnt put too much money on it if i were you!
secondly, your logic in your argument for a perfect world makes no sense. we arent discussing perfect worlds and rights – you’re going off on tangents. This girl asked a specific question and her boyfriend plain lied about it. Arguing on the basis of whether things worked our not is saying that the means justifies the end, which is not the case- honesty matters, and the truth matters- clearly they matter to the LW.
or rather- that the end justifies the means.
So you don’t think the reason he lied matters? All you care about is that it was a lie, and all lies are bad and all lies are equal, and she should break up with him, not based on how she feels about him emotionally or how invested in the relationship she is now, but rather because he lied?
That’s what I’m saying. Sounds like he knew what her reaction was going to be, & she says in her letter that he regrets it………I feel bad for the guy. Obviously, I don’t know everything about the situation, but…….I feel her reaction to this revelation is extreme. I guess I’m just more relaxed about histories, etc., but I honestly don’t think it’s my duty to EVER reveal details about my sexual history to a SO — as someone else said on here (paraphrasing), “we’re both STD-free & monogamous now, so what does it matter?”
& in everything else he’s been honest & LW is in love with him?? Breaking up or “hating” him would be so far from my mind.
But as she said, everyone is entitled to standards. It’s just sad to me that she may end up rejecting people over & over again because they have flaws : /
the reason he lied is because he knew that without lying as you say, she probably wouldnt be with him- but thats her choice. How is that any different to saying someone who cheated should lie aswell. I am not saying there is never a lie that is justified or that half truths are always wrong, but your opening yourself up to a very very grey area when you say that a person can just lie to a direct question if they deem it appropriate. She had a right to know.
She also says that he says she “lied about being more liberal” or something similar. That makes it sound like maybe he didn’t fully get what she meant by “crazy”?
I hate bananas. Like really despise them. I’d almost be willing to say I’d eat anything else other than a banana. If someone offered me one, I’d without hesitation or reflection scrunch my face up and shake my head no. Some time in the spring a good friend of mine made a dessert she insisted on me trying. Everyone else told me I had to as well, it was really good. So I said sure, why not – I love trying new things. I looked it over to study it’s contents and asked her what was in it. She listed the ingredients, which happen to include a lot of fruits. So I asked, “there aren’t any bananas in here are there?” She assured me there weren’t and I need to try it, I’ll love it. So I did. And she was right, it was amazing! Truly a great dessert, everyone’s recommendations were on par. I then asked her how she made it, she rattled off the ingredients and when to add what, and somewhere in the middle she told me “and then you take half a banana, dice it up, add it to the mix…” I said, “woah woah woah, so there ARE bananas in here?!” She smiled and said yes, but pointed out that I loved the dessert anyway so what did it matter. And she was right. She knew that if I knew there were bananas in that dessert there is no way on the planet I would try it. She also knew that the dessert was so good it was worth that risk, and once I tried it I’d realize how good it was that I wouldn’t care if there were bananas in it (since I wasn’t allergic or anything, which she knew). She used her discretion to lie about a very direct question and did deem it appropriate. And she was right.
So my point is, even if someone has a “right” to know something (which is a very broad concept), there are certain situations in which denying them that right will be for the better. You can see beyond their narrow mindedness (in this case, her presumptions of people with a “crazy past.”) Cheating is not a narrow minded concept. It’s a well established, iron clad action that violates two people’s already established intimacy. You can not equate her self-imposed disqualifier on that same level. She had a preconceived notion of something (such as say, hating bananas or people with “crazy pasts” are bad matches) that the other person knew they were better than and knew she would be wrong in her assessment. So in seeing the bigger picture, they felt the end truly did justify the means.
been there, done that. Agree, Agree, Agree!
Callifax and Mainer have said everything I tried to say far more coherently. What they said.
wendy is way off base.
LW didn’t ask for a “reality check”, nor does she need one. I read nothing in the letter about feeling let down for a minor issue, because Wendy is going on and on about how nobody is perfect, and everybody will screw up.
Dude slept with two random chicks, who were siblings in a very short time frame. One chick he slept with, the day after she broke up with his roomate. Sounds like something Barney from How I met your mother would do.
Dude is f’ed up, and of very poor character.
LW doesn’t seem like a person who loves exploring new sexual partners. Different value systems. She only had one serious partner in the past, who took advantage of her. Wendy’s advice almost sounds like a defense of the d-bag bf.
LW, if you think the drama is too much to handle, and more than what the relationship is worth, end it, and find someone with a similar value system. You are entitled to your opinions, and judgements.
Not all men sleep with women who they know are siblings, and stab their friends in the back the day after they break up with their girlfriends.
Its refreshing to hear what you are saying and definately think LW needs to hear it. However, I still think Wendy’s advice is something this girl needs to hear in addtion to what you’ve said.
I am sorry, but I do not think the bf is a d-bag. But the LW seems a little bit coocoo. The things she said in this letter only suggest a lot of drama will follow. You can talk about different value systems, but what the LW really needs to know that unless she is under 20, the chances that she finds someone that has all the attributes she searches in a guy are pretty low.
I don’t think the LW is looking for somebody who has never slept with anyone before, she is looking for somebody, who doesn’t do shady things like sleep with your roommates ex right after they broke up, and only a couple of months after sleeping with her sister. To her this probably seems like a moral issue. There are plenty of people out there she can find that don’t do things like this.
Of course there are. As I said, she should start looking for people under 20 years or die-hard religious people. Somehow, I doubt that is what the LW is looking for.
So only people who are 20 and older, or not religious sleep with their roommates ex, and sleep with sisters one right after the other? Wish I was around for that memo, because I’m 31, and have done neither. Actually none of my friends that I’m aware of have done this either. I mean they have slept with plenty of people, but that isn’t something that the LW specifically brought up, when defining what a crazy past was to her boyfriend. She has slept with someone besides her curren’t BF aswell.
No, you have not done the particular thing that the LW is so freaked out about. But I am willing to bet my money that you or your friends have something in your past that would freak the LW.
and if she asked I would tell her up front, and not lie about it.
sleeping with someone 2-3 months after sleeping with someone else is not sleeping with one right after the other. maybe if it were 2-3 days or weeks than that’s right after the other.
if the sisters don’t have a problem with it, then who cares?
and to end a friendship with a girl for something she did before you ever knew each other or the bf is a bit ridiculous! sounds like the girl has been nothing but a good friend; why should she be punished for having sex with a single guy?
Funny – when I read the headline, I thought it was a threesome with the two sisters. Guess LW would’ve hated that.
I’m over 20, not die-hard religious, and have only had sex with people I was in a serious relationship with. Most of my friends have similar values, including guys. You don’t have to go to extremes to find more sexually conservative people.
I agree. And even if the LW is searching for someone who has never slept with anyone before, and has all the attributes she’s searching for, that’s certainly not impossible to find. I know a LOT of people who were virgins into their mid to late 20s. And nobody thought it was weird. They aren’t social pariahs who couldn’t get laid, they’re perfectly normal people who were simply waiting for the right relationship (and deeply committed to their schooling). Of course, nobody’s perfect, and people will likely let you down at some point, but the good ones won’t do it intentionally and will make amends afterward.
Eh, I think that last part isn’t really what I was intending to say. I meant: I think it’s problematic of the LW to expect her boyfriend to be perfect and “special”. Expecting someone to be perfect for you, and to not intentionally let you down is one thing – expecting someone to be altogether perfect and to never let you down is unrealistic. Having standards that you state up front, not problematic; expecting perfection, totally problematic.
On the contrary, I think the LW very much needs a reality check:
“I made him cut off all contact with her, which he did.” -Seriously, who *forces* their partner to do anything in a healthy relationship? I mean really, I genuinely want to know how that’s healthy. I’m a big advocate of free choice; if he wants to give her the gift of sacrificing a friendship for her, great. Otherwise, this screams paranoid insecurity to me.
“so this boyfriend was supposed to be special and not a liar…but I was entitled to be with a person who was honest with me.” -Entitled? Whole books have been written on the subject. If we were all entitled to nothing but perfect people, we would all be alone. Her whole letter screamed “Someone owes me a perfect bf, cuz this one’s FLAWED!!!”
I feel like it’s important to point out that that is how he *WAS*. A more accurate phrasing would be “Dude WAS f’ed up”. Condemning all d-bags as completely unsalvageable is a pretty harsh thing to do. Some people turn their lives around; I know them and I’ve been them. I will admit that I wouldn’t have lied, but that’s a point of personal honor and not something I apply to everyone. He didn’t lie with the express purpose of hurting her–he lied to give both of them a legitimate shot at love and/or happiness. The fact that she’s even waffling about dumping him after her previous vehemence shows that it worked at least a little.
I don’t think he is a piece of trash either…but everyone seems to forget that this was a DEALBREAKER for her. Regardless of how you feel about that he lied about something important to her to keep her dating him…that is being deceitful…they have been dating for 2 years…it would be hard to let go of that attachment. The fact that she flip flops on “hating him” is enough for me to say this will be an issue she doesn’t let go of.
The thing is, though, it’s clearly not a dealbreaker–if it were, she wouldn’t be considering staying with him. That’s what a dealbreaker is, no? She’d be long gone and wouldn’t have written to DW if it was really that cut and dried.
I do agree that the love-hate part indicates that this relationship is done for, one way or another.
People compromise their values when they let their emotions get in the way…haha…I know that sounds terrible…but she is essentially torn between what she believes is right and how she feels.
It wasn’t the day after, it was like a month after and his roommate was cheating on the girl and that’s why he broke up with.
Plus my bf was friends with the girl for months and was close with her, he described the situation as her being heartbroken and he was was also distraught over past relationships so they slept together while drunk.
And the sisters weren’t back to back, he dated a girl in between who ditched him.
Also this did not happen when he was ‘younger’ he slept with this check like 3 months before we met and started dating
So basically he made a drunken mistake? It sounds like you’re too angry (from this response) to forgive. So MOA. But, really one drunken night is going to cause you to walk away from someone who you obviously cared about?
And if I were the friend who you were referring to as chick I would be offended. She didn’t actually do anything to you. She slept with your bf one time before you had ever met him. I think you’re being kind of harsh towards her.
The new information actually causes me to re-think my stance on this situation…haha….essentially she wasn’t a close friend and he doesn’t like her very much at all…I don’t see the issue anymore.
Haha yeah, I did a lot of sticking up for the LW, and I wish I hadn’t now. This does seem really blown out of proportion. I think you need to give you BF the benefit of doubt, and either forgive him, and keep going on with your relationship, or MOA. Personally now I think your BF should move on, because this was blown way out of proportion, and you made him cut a really good friend out of his life, and yours aswell. It all sounds very childish now.
if you keep reading further down she says the ‘friend’ wasn’t really a friend at all. so i’m even more confused now.
Ugh, I will have to catch up on the train! Guess no nap today! Ok south station her I come!
It seems like you’re looking for trouble in your relationship. I think you need a reality check and you need to understand that being in a relationship doesn’t give you the right to control another person’s actions, and it definitely doesn’t give you the right to attempt to control your partner’s past behaviors. I understand that you feel hurt and betrayed that he lied by omission, and you certainly have a right to feel that way, but your reaction strikes me as immature.
Yeah………..This is a lot of information for my brain to process…………but……
2 friends, both sad & lonely – one of whom was just cheated on by her boyfriend – got drunk & had sex? Thank god. Poor kids.
You sound super-pissed, though, so I say spare your boyfriend the major guilt trip & break up with him. And please remember that EVERY situation is 50-50, so take responsibility for your part in this.
Whoa there. Every situation is not 50-50. I honestly can’t even see where you’d get that from. I’m walking down the street getting an ice cream and someone shoots me and takes my walle; I should take responsibility for my 50% of that interaction? B/c I was there? I really don’t understand what you mean, every situation is 50-50.
And it wasn’t like it was a throw-away line, you capitalized EVERY. Is what you mean that no (or very few) situations are 100% someone’s fault? because that is not at all the same thing.
Yes, in my view, your 50% would be walking down to get ice cream. Not saying you were wrong to do so, but that was the other end of the equation. I totally believe that *every* situation is 50-50.
In this situation, she asked him a question that was basically, “Lie to me if you care about me or tell me the truth & lose me for good.” He lied. Now that the truth has come out (who knows how?), she is refusing to accept his apology, his regret or his accommodating reaction (to cut the friend out).
Wow, crazy victim blaming math going on.
I understand your concept: its “but-for” causation. But-for the fact that I was walking down the street, I would not have gotten mugged because I literally wouldn’t have been there. Got it.
But I strongly disagree that everyone should “take responsibility” for but-for causation — you honestly believe that I should “take responsiblity” for being the one that the mugger chose to rob? That I should own up to that? What would taking responsibility for that look like, feeling regret for deciding to get ice cream that day? I’m trying to imagine working with my therapist and “taking responsibility” for my contribution to that days events. In fact, a good therapist would tell you that you SHOULDN’T take responsibility for but-for causation, because you had no way of knowing what would happen, because while you were a but-for cause, you weren’t a proximate cause — It wasn’t YOUR FAULT — the punishment for getting ice cream isn’t getting shot.
People should take responsibility for things that are their fault; they should take responsibility for their share of guilt in any given situation. I also agree that the LW has a share of blame in her current predicament. But I think you are crazily wrong in asserting that people should “take responsibility” for their totally blameless, happenstance 50% contribution for the occurrence of a situation.
I do fully agree that it’s not your *fault* & I certainly wouldn’t want to be blaming the victim in any situation.
However, there are other parallel equations as well.
Such as, who is responsible for the mugger having no money themself? Who is responsible for giving them the idea that violence was an acceptable solution? Who is responsible for the situation in which the mugger felt they had nowhere to turn & were forced into crime?
I think it’s been quoted here before, but something similar to, “The first step to betrayal is trust” is a good example of what I’m saying.
In your (albeit extreme) example, you went out unarmed, unprotected & carrying objects of value (i.e. monies, as evidenced by said ice cream purchase).
: )
I’m feeling grateful for no purple thumbs : )
I’m really not trying to make it sound as though in your example you should “take responsibility” for anything you did……. While the idea of random crime is interesting, & could be debated, that is not really what I was talking about (that involves many, many equations – not 1). I was speaking about a relationship that involves 2 people (1 equation) or 3 people, counting friend/sister/whatever (3 equations).
So the “math” is exponentially more complicated when speaking about society + criminal + victim rather than boy + girl (+ ex-fling/friend).
**SORRY that took me a million comments to explain. I can’t find the “modify comment” button right now : /
I fully understand your concern about victim-blaming, however, & wanted to make sure I was being clear!
Considering that you really do believe this and I didn’t misinterpret, I will continue.
Well then, every situation is not 50-50, it is the correct apportionment of chance to each player. For example, if mugger is determined to rob someone that day, they have a certain percentage of taking that street. Lets say they have 70% of taking Street A and 30% B. Lets say I have a 60% of going to that ice cream place and a 40% chance of going to the gym. Now lets add in the fact that the mugger had a 45% chance of mugging that day and a 55% chance of going to the zoo that day. In infinite parallel universes, we do not have equal “responsibility” for the fact that the intersection of our possible actions occurred — our responsibility/input into the chance that it occurred are dependent on the numbers i’ve listed and a whole lot more. They are not likely to be equal (nor do they have to add up to 100).
As to your point about Trust being the first step of Betrayal — that is remarking on FAULT, not but-for causation. The expression conveys that you should have known better than to trust the person who ultimately betrayed you, and that your first mistake was trusting them. I imagine someone like Machiavelli saying that. He is not remarking that happenstance of trust in a random instance was the first step towards and unpredictable outcome — it is that the outcome WAS predictible, and thus, the trust was a mistake, and you set the stage for your own downfall. In the expression, Trust = mistake = fault.
And my ice cream example wasn’t extreme; its incredibly banal! That’s the point. You are literally blaming me for going unarmed to the ice cream store without proper regard for protecting my 4 dollars. So I stand by my “victim blaming” statement and finding your attitude on this topic utterly absurd, if not totally unfounded.
I wrote this before your last two comments posted.
I understand your concern regarding being interpreted as “victim blaming” but I still don’t get how you can say you aren’t, unless you’re really talking about blame/fault, rather than causation.
And then it isn’t always 50-50.
The friend/girl in this scenario is probably about 2% wrong (it’s not especially nice to sleep with your ex’s friends immediately, and she never told LW about the fact that she slept with LW’s bf, while not her responsibility, it would have been nice if you’re close). The second sister: about .5% at fault (that’s just kind of messed up in my awesome opinion). The BF: probably about 73% wrong (lying about sleeping with your friends when directly asked is kinda douchey). The LW: about 24.5% wrong. (banning people from being friends isn’t nice; neither is being a super duper crappy friend to the friend/girl)
Or whatever math you want. But it isn’t even 50/50 in this case, better yet in every case. So I still disagree with this theory of yours, but, putting it aside, I think we all can see that you don’t actually think that victims of crimes deserve what they get.
Hahahaha….oh no…..the perils of pseudo-instant communication
I don’t agree with your %s above, but it doesn’t matter : ) Interesting to discuss at any rate.
Have a good evening!
Hi,
I agree about your thoughts that chance plays a role. But, like I said, in the ice cream scenario, it’s not 1 relationship, it’s many relationships…Also, even chaos is mathematical in its way : )
I think everyone should trust everyone. I think betrayal is *allowed* by the presence of trust, but no fault or blame. I wish everyone trusted everyone.
I think we’re having major miscommunication since my comments are without any context…….I have very unconventional beliefs, I know. I don’t believe in good or evil. I don’t believe that any one person is “responsible” for any situation — more that anything is the result of a million reciprocal relationships. & honestly, I don’t think of death as negative…..I also believe in the buddhist concept that everything is upaya, or a lesson, so I have trouble seeing anything as simple victim-perpetrator, more especially so because I think that most people who perpetrate crimes against others are usually the victims of crimes themselves.
Anyway…Thanks for engaging with me.
I figured there was some sort of eastern philosophy going on. Your comment was laden with the idea that there is a balance, that BF could not have done anything without a counterweight of equal force also being involved, that everything has an opposite. Hence the 50/50, because nothing in the universe remains unbalanced; it all has an equal counterforce, of sorts. I get that. I’m not sure I buy it, but I get it.
What kind of an idiot goes to the ice cream shop unarmed?
HA!
I like you 🙂
We are lucky to laugh at that : )
Good point!
fter reading all the comments from you, Conflicted in Love/Hate, I’m starting to think that you are the real liar here. It may sound harsh but so far we have been told that this girl was a friend to both you and the bf. You hosted her bday parties, had dinner with your mother together and even considered living together.
Next thing you know the “chick” is a jerk who “pursued him to get back at her ex and I was never close with this girl.” Huh? now you and this girl were never friends and she was a bad person? Also how could she make her ex jealous if he had “no idea” that your bf and the kinda-sorta-friend never told him they were together.
In your letter you say your bf slept with this girl as soon as she and the roommate broke up (the roommate had no idea). In your next comment you state “it wasn’t the day after, it was like a month after and his roommate was cheating on the girl and that’s why he broke up with.” and “Plus my bf was friends with the girl for months and was close with her, he described the situation as her being heartbroken and he was was also distraught over past relationships so they slept together while drunk.”
So this didn’t happen “as soon as they broke up” it happened a month later and she wasn’t trying to make her ex jealous she just drunkenly consoled her “distraught” feelings while your bf fixed his “broken heart” with booze and sex. Plus the roommate was a bad guy – a cheater- who didn’t deserve the girl anyway, so why would he care if hiss roommate slept with his ill treated ex weeks later???
You also go on to refute your own claim that he slept with the sisters back to back. Now you say there was a full on relationship between the familial hook ups.
It seems to me that you don’t really know the true story or wrote in what you wanted to believe and when you didn’t get the responses you expected you tried multiple times to change things until you heard what you wanted.
I thought you were a true LW in need. You deceived me. Now I need to go to therapy and see if I can get past this bump in our relationship. After that last LW sent an update where they changed all of the facts in their original letter I should have known not to trust you. But I thought you were the real and special LW. Guess I was wrong.
Sincerely,
why do i even bother anymore?
Drama? What drama? According to the LW her and the girl have been friends for the pastt year or so. Have shared holidays, bdays and family dinners with no drama whatsoever. This girl has a new long-term gf and has done nothing to threaten or undermine the relationship between the LW and her bf. If she had been throwing hints and all over the bf it would be one thing but it seems like the bf and the hook-up both regretted their one moment of bad judgement FROM THEIR COLLEGE DAYS and moved on to be rational adults in new, stable relationships. They even managed to remain friends despite the fact that he once slept with her sister. The LW needs to decide if one mistake form her bfs past should ruin both of their futures and what seemed like a great friendship!
I love this line : ‘Even someone with a flawless past is going to screw up some time. ”
And I think even someone with a screwy past can act flawlessly in the present.
LOVE.
Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.
So it’s okay to call a guy slutty but calling a girl slutty is “slut-shaming” and rape-enabling?
Dislike.
Perhaps because calling women “slutty” over the years was a way to insult, belittle and degrade them. Calling a guy “slutty” is like a joke. That term has never been used to insult men in the same way. In fact, a guy who gets a lot of women is praised, not demeaned.
If you can’t see the double standard at work here, well, I can’t help you.
What MJ said.
Funny, it doesn’t like this particular guy is getting a whole lot of praise here in the comments. Speaking of funny, there was once a time when people thought Al Jolson in black face tap-dancing with a guy in a watermelon costume was “like a joke” but is currently seen as hateful and racist.
My point is that traditionalist or open-minded views on relationship should be applied equally to men and women both. The double standard here at work here is holding men and women to two different standards, and frankly I’m not the one perpetuating it here.
THANK YOU.
I know that is a widely known stigma, but I know of no men with good reputations that fall into the realm of slutty.
I think things are changing a bit, and I hope that one day we can all just be called sluts (or not) equally 🙂
It just drives me nuts when people throw out this “well, if it’s bad for one, why isn’t it bad for the other?” thing without taking historical context into consideration. The history matters.
Where does it say any of that?
Comments on previous letters have derided slut-shaming and similar practices, which made me think that at least a significant portion of Dear Wendy’s readership took issue with female slut-shaming. From there, I inferred that Dear Wendy’s readership didn’t take the same issue with male slut-shaming as with female slut-shaming based on the comments in the instant letter. Thank you for asking.
And thank you for sharing. I hear your point. I’ve never commented either way on the slut-shaming issue, so I can’t really participate on this topic. I think this guy did act like a slut, but I’d say the same to a girl though. If some women want to wave their slut flag high, then thats certainly their choice to do so. Its just not behavior I would act on. But call a spade a spade, which is what I think those women are actually doing. IDK, not intending to start a whole big controversy on this topic.
At least she just said “slutty” and didn’t specify that he was a “man-slut” or a “man-whore”. I hate when people specify the gender. Female is the “generic” – the assumed – when one says slut. If one doesn’t have a problem with labeling others as slutty, then it should be used universally, for all genders. I personally don’t like the term used for anyone.
It’s highly subjective, anyway. The LW thinks what her BF did was wrong, while others here are saying, so what, no big deal, it’s in the past.
I definitely wouldn’t want to date someone who labeled me as “slutty” based on my past behavior/indiscretions. I’m somewhat surprised that the boyfriend hasn’t left after the LW’s freakout. (NOT saying her freakout is wrong – like I said, it’s subjective and it’s more of a mismatched values thing – but if I was the BF I’d be feeling overly judged/criticized).
We all have our own different versions of “perfect,” by which we really mean, perfect for us. If you’re someone who values sexual integrity regardless of the situation (not sleeping with your friend’s ex, for example) then obviously you would want to be with a partner who shares those values. However, that definitely doesn’t mean every situation is always cut and dry, or that there are people that we can write off simply because their past actions don’t jive with what we would have wanted them to do.
I understand where you are coming from, because in the past I had tended to have similar feelings…I had only been with a very short list of people, and the thought of someone who had slept with many more and, god forbid, still hung out with those people would have made me crazy and feel completely insecure. But years and my own personal discretions later, I realized that those things I’ve done are just that…things I’ve done…not the whole of my character. There is so much more that informs who I am as a person and a girlfriend. As I suspect your boyfriend is much more than someone who once slept with two sisters and didn’t want to fess up about it.
It concerns me that you say you hate your boyfriend because of this and forced him to cut off contact with a friend, who incidentally was your friend as well, because that is not the path to either a healthy relationship or personal healing. If it was truly a dealbreaker for you, you would have broken up with him when you found out about it. But by that point, you knew him and loved him, and so that changed your dealbreaker from an automatic “no way” to a “well, usually.” It’s not fair to him for you to forever hold this above his head as the thing that shattered your faith in him and your relationship. When you chose to try to move past it, you should have also chosen to let it go, which is what has been so hard for you. If you find out that you truly cannot be happy with him and his past, then you need to let him go. But moving forward, understand that there will always be something to dislike about a person if you’re looking hard enough for it.
*I meant to say “personal INdiscretions”…
I like this a lot 🙂
The only thing is that the LW failed to define her version of “crazy past”. Most people in this day and age don’t consider serial monogamy “crazy”, so it’s not completely shocking that he didn’t bring it up. It’s like she didn’t even realize that the universe is more than just her morals and the fringe elements, that’s what really gets me. It’s up to her to be very clear about past/present behaviors she will not tolerate.
That said, when she blatantly asked him if he’d slept with any of his friends and he stright-up lied–that’s 100% on him.
Just realized I wrote that I’m someone’s girlfriend, when I’m actually now a wife! One month in and it’s still hard to wrap my head around!
I have a very sensitive spot when it comes to my significant others drinking thanks to alcoholics in my family and the things I’ve seen tjem do or experienced them doing to me so it was very hard for me to find someone in this crazy college town who wasn’t a lush. The man I’m now married to used to drink ridiculous amounts of alcohol when he first joined the army (stationed in Geramany so he was legal) and did some crazy even gross things because of it.
But the boy who did those things no longer exists. He has grown into a responsible man who has learned a lot of lessons from his crazy days, and I don’t worry about him going back there.
You say you were happy with your boyfriend, that you loved being around this other girl, and you don’t fear him cheating. So what is wrong? He lied, yes, but it was a lie that I’m betting he told so you’d give him a chance. Maybe this is your chance to grow up and leave a bit of the old you behind.
On the other hand if this relationship was filled with conflict due to him being more liberal and you decidedly conservative then cut the ties now because it will not change unless you two do and then you wont be the people you guys fell in love with.
I totally get where LW is coming from On my very first date with my now husband, we were talking about our pasts, I asked him about his serious relationships, he told me he had been in 2. Since until then I had only had one partner I felt like we were on the same page.
Eventually I came to find out about more and more partners he had had, until one day I asked him point blank how many people he had actually been with, he says he “doesn’t remember” It turns out that by serious relationship he meant dated for a couple of years each, not just the sexual component.
I confess I still get eaten up inside sometimes by his past… he slept with several people I know, including one I can’t stand.
I guess the difference here is that my husband didn’t exactly lie, it was more a misunderstanding. The point is, LW that if I had known upfront about my husband’s sexual past I probably would never have gone out with him in the first place, and would have ended up missing out on a great relationship. I know your bf’s deception might be hard to get over, but if you really love him maybe it’s worth the effort. What’s important is how he is now, and if your current values are compatible.
LW I would be as ticked off as you too in a similar situation. It is tough for some people to handle their s/o being good friends with someone they have been with (which isn’t fair to you or your s/o) and to top it off he lied about it and now you feel like everything you built (friendship with this girl and the relationship with your bf) were made on a pile of lies….so yea….I think you are emotionally attached, but I would wager you will ultimately call this off for your mental health and because your bf doesn’t deserve the controlling behavior you will and have been exuding over this.
I couldn’t have said this better myself. So I’m glad I didn’t try 🙂
Wendy was a whole lot nicer in her advice than I want to be.
LW, you’re coming off as extremely judgemental. Yes, you copped to it in your letter, and yes, I’m saying it again. Seriously, what business is it of your what your boyfriend did or didn’t do years ago? How does that remotely affect you? Yes, I know, lies and lies of omission still hurt, even if they’re about things in the past, but come on. It’s not like he cheated on you with these two sisters.
And really, why is the two sisters thing such a dealbreaker for you? Would it have been better if he’d dated them both? What if he’d started dating one, casually, and then discovered he really liked the other one better? What if both sisters knew about it and were ok with it?
Now, I do think you’re justified in being upset that your bf didn’t tell you he’d slept with a woman who became your good friend. In that case, I think you have every right to feel disappointed and a little angry, but hello, he apologized. At this point all you’re doing is cheating yourself out of a good friend. (Although I definitely think you need to talk with HER about it.)
We’ve all been burned. And we’ve all sworn, at some point or another, that we’ll “never, ever make the mistake of dating a guy like that again!!!” But the truth is, there are a million different kinds of people on the spectrum between “perfect” (which doesn’t exist) and “total evil” (which, unfortunately, does). Are you really going to throw away an otherwise great relationship just because your bf is a few points off from your idea of perfect?
This times x1000!
This is exactly what I was thinking. Both the boyfriend and the LW sound kind of crappy to me. But I would add a little bit of hypocrisy to that judgmental-ness. She makes her boyfriend cut all ties (and presumably cut ties herself) with this girl who made the poor decision to sleep with him, but stays with him anyway. If it had been me, I would have either dumped them both, or if there was a way I could have dumped the boyfriend and kept the girl as a friend, I would have done that. Cause that girl was (along with her sister) blameless of anything but sleeping with a jerk.
i like this a lottttt
YUP!
that girl was the jerk, she was pursuing him to get back at her ex and I was never close with this girl, so I rally see no need to save any friendship wth er at all since we werent really close. she just happened to be part of his group of friends that I as close too
Huh? You said in your letter you were close, she met your mother, etc. I’m lost.
“that girl was the jerk, she was pursuing him to get back at her ex”
How do you know this? I don’t think most people who do bad things are thinking they are doing something bad. If she just went through a horrible breakup with a cheating ex, she was probably very hurt & maybe *subconsciously* wanted to get back at her ex, but unless she secretly videotaped the sex & then emailed it to her ex with, “HAHAHAHA” in the subject line, I wouldn’t call her a “jerk.”
“Plus my bf was friends with the girl for months and was close with her, he described the situation as her being heartbroken and he was was also distraught over past relationships so they slept together while drunk.”
This is from your comment above.
“Plus my bf was friends with the girl for months and was close with her, he described the situation as her being heartbroken and he was was also distraught over past relationships so they slept together while drunk.”
This is from your comment above. It does not to me sound as if she was a jerk who was trying to get back at her ex.
Whoops, doubled up there…
Her morals are just that though, her morals. I think she was upfront with what she expected from a boyfriend and thats commendable. She didn’t out of the blue freak out.
Exactly!
True, and in that case she needs to just break up with him and MOA, not ban him from seeing their friend and keep loving and hating him at the same time. My point is that maybe she should rethink what her deal-breakers are, because frankly, from this letter, they sound a little extreme. But that’s just me, and my morals.
True. If she intends to stick to her guns about what she deems acceptable, whatever that may be, its clear he is not what she wants and she should do them both a favor and MOA.
He doesn’t have to stay with her either. If he feels he is being forced to not hangout with his friends, he can tell her otherwise. He has the right to talk to her, and tell her what makes him feel uncomfortable, and what is a deal breaker to him.
Yeah… and if the girl is still friends with the BF then apparently SHE’s not too upset about what he did. Maybe the sisters know about the whole thing. Maybe the roommate knows what happened and they’ve all gotten over it. Maybe the boyfriend feels bad about it and has changed as a person and would not do something like that again the future. ORRR… maybe the boyfriend doesn’t think what he did was a big deal, and THAT’s what’s bothering the LW.
It wasnt years ago it was 3 months before I dated him…it was very recent history, and it seems like he just got worse and worse over time…and this was the second time he slept with a friends ex..he slept with another friends ex before this situation
so are you more upset that he lied or more upset about what you’re learning about his sexual history? and did you flat out explain to him what ‘crazy’ meant to you?
What’s your plan after reading Wendy’s advice and these comments? Do you have one?
I’m sorry, but that doesn’t change my response at all. Whether it was three months or three years before you two started dating doesn’t matter.
However, the history of sleeping with his friends’ exes is a little odd…now THAT would put me off a bit PRIOR to dating someone, because it shows a lack of respect for the friend.
I’m not sure… in college especially it seems like everyone you know is an ex of someone you know?
Hmm, well, true. I inferred that he slept with them RIGHT after their respective break-ups, but if not, well, who knows?
There’s lying, and then there’s who you’ve slept with. I’ve seen Wendy and other comment multiple times that it’s really none of the guy’s business who she’s slept with in the past, why isn’t that the case for the guy in this instance? LW says she put it out there when they first started dating, that she didn’t want to date someone with a crazy past. Sleeping with two friends is hardly “crazy” by most definitions. Non-standard perhaps that two sisters were sequential, but really what is the big deal? They were both friends first. It’s unfortunate that he lied when she asked him if he’d slept with any of his close friends, but really, she had no right to ask the question, and I give him, and really anyone in that situation a complete pass for lying in that situation.
Personally I find it really crazy that so many people (LW and apparently commentors above) seem to have a problem with being a friend with someone that you slept with in the past. I’m usually at least friend-ly with someone before I sleep with them, call me crazy, but I like to know that they’re a good person and worth hanging out with first. Just because a relationship didn’t work out doesn’t mean that the person wasn’t a worthy friend, it just means we didn’t click for a long-term relationship. If someone’s had more than a couple romantic partners and NONE of them can stand to be in the same room with them, that would be a red flag to me. Not the fact that one or two are still kicking around, implicitly recommending them really.
I totally agree with you.
I agree 100%
“There’s lying, and then the people who you’ve slept with.” YES! My thoughts exactly. This was more of a lie of omission, and I thought those were totally Kosher when it came to “the number.” She didn’t ask him if he’d slept with this friend, or her sister – she just asked him if he had a crazy past. Everyone’s definition of crazy is different, and although i’m sure he probably knew that sleeping with two sisters would fit her definition of crazy, I still don’t think all that past partner talk is completely necessary.
And i’m with you – it is a much larger red flag if someone you’re dating can’t be in the same room with anyone they’ve slept with. If all your ex’s or ex sleeping partners hate you – you are probably the common denominator in that equation.
Actually, she did specifically ask if he’d slept with anyone in his inner circle of friends, which included one of these two girls. So he did lie about it. But I agree with you about the “crazy” part, that may not have been clear. So it’s one lie, not several lies, if that makes any difference.
Well if we really want to get nit picky about it – maybe he has a different definition of what “inner circle” consists of. For argument’s sake maybe he considers his inner circle only his two best friends. Or maybe when she originally asked him about the inner circle thing he really wasn’t close with this girl – and the LW’s friendship with her has actually brought her into the very close inner circle.
It isn’t about judging what people are comfortable with in their personal relationships….it is about people actually recognizing what they are comfortable with and engaging in relationships with like minded people….which the girl tried to do in this situation and the boy friend tried NOT to do…if they had both stayed true to themselves (at any point in the time line) this letter wouldn’t have been written.
Exactly! She knew what wouldn’t work for her and so she was upfront about it.
And I have been in a situation where a gf has done something similar…and I did lie…and I learned from it. IF I was in that situation now I would have told the truth and let her break up with me.
I remember reading an article a few years ago about a woman who had over 30 fiances (if I’m remembering correctly). The reason-she morphed herself into the perfect woman for each particular guy. Be who you are and be honest about it. There is no point in someone doing otherwise because if they do end up liking you, they are liking the image of you that you’re portraying and not the real you.
I almost agreed with you, but i think that someone IS entitled to know if their bf has slept with any of their (mutual) friends. I get why he would say no at the beginning, but I also would get why she wouldld care. (I would care if my BF had slept with his good girl friend, if I was under the impression that he hadn’t because he told me he hadn’t.) I vehemently disagree that she didn’t have the “right” to ask the question. In a healthy honest relationship, you have the “right” to ask pretty much whatever you want.
I think there is a happy medium between being entitled to know every single thing your partner has done before you, with everyone they did it with, and to judge them for it, and having an idea of what kind of person, even sexually, your partner was before you, and complete ignorance regarding your partner’s history except no STDs. Aren’t you entitled to know if they raped someone? Isn’t it fair to know if they enjoy sleeping with people of the same sex? Visit hookers? Cheated on multiple past partners? slept with everyone they work with? Have had an affair with several married people? Have children?
I think having a general idea of the sexual history of your partner and knowing who among the people you are close with have slept with your partner are two totally fair questions to ask, and to expect honest answers.
That said, I think the LW seems quite immature and this relationship is over. But I think your general statements were too extreme.
So just because you are ok with it she is suppose to go against her beliefs? the fact is it doesn’t matter what you or any of us think is acceptable or not, it is what the LW does. She was up front at the beginning of the relationship with this, and her BF wasn’t, and got caught in the lie. Also I haven’t read a whole lot of comments about being upset that he was still friends with the girl, some people are saying they wouldn’t do the other stuff the BF did, but again that is their personal preference.
If I made my husband’s past the basis of my current relationship with him, I would not have gone out with him, let alone married him. He did a lot of dispicable things in his past relationships. Yet I didn’t marry the guy in spite of what he was – I married him because the lessons he learned make him who he is NOW and what he wants US to be.
Don’t get me wrong – your boyfriend does not get a free pass here for lying about his past when you brought up your dealbreakers. Yet is he currently sleeping with the two sisters now, or cheating on you? He’s trying to make amends for his lies now and even went so far as to not contact the girl again. It’s unrealistic to expect your partner to have NO past, so why have this expectation that an unsavory past is possible?
I hate to pull a Yoda on you, but your Fear of an unsavory past has brought you to the point of Anger when you discovered his lies, so you’re currently Hating him now. You obviously still love your boyfriend, in spite of these developments, and that is why you’re currently Suffering. So either bake some cookies and accept his Dark Side or let him go and end your relationship accordingly. Move or move not. There is no try.
Yeah – it’s the classic Star Wars plot….
i love star wars. i’m seriously thinking about getting the lego yoda alarm clock
I also need a new alarm clock…googling that now.
This is the clock I want
—anyone who knew me on TF would know why 😉
Lying is wrong, especially from a significant other. But if I may play devil’s advocate, I’ve never heard anyone give that kind of ultimatum before, and I doubt he had either. I hope that I wouldn’t lie, but I wouldn’t know what to say to someone who told me that we couldn’t date if I’d slept with [insert whoever].
As for the actual act, I think it’s a little extreme to call it disgusting and all those other adjectives. As the others have said, you’re going to have a hard time finding someone with no dating past. At the very least, you’ll find that you can’t date 95 percent of the guys you meet, even if you want to. And really, you’re going to have to find someone now because as you get older, people get more and more of a past.
I’m not trying to change your values or suggest that you forgive your boyfriend if you’re not ready or if he has other issues that make lying the icing on the cake. But I think you should cool off a little. Not only will you have a hard time finding someone without a past, but you’ll have a lonely life if you boot out your boyfriend anytime he does something wrong. People make mistakes.
I think she found it disgusting that they were sisters (if a girl has slept with any of my brothers they are off limits…not because they are gross for it) and that he slept with the one the DAY AFTER his friend and that girl broke up…that is questionable behavior on the bf’s part.
I would think sleeping with someone the day after the break-up would be questionable behavior on the girl’s part…(if it were questionable at all, because in my opinion, as long as both adults are ok with it, timing is irrelevant)
What happened with them is their business, you are right, but it shows complete disregard for his friend.
This has been mentioned earlier, but to reiterate, the LW never said she wanted to date someone “without a past”. She said she wanted to date someone without a “crazy past” which included him not having slept with someone who is still in his inner circle of friends. And he lied.
The line that stood out to me above anything else in this letter was this: “This boyfriend was supposed to be special and not a liar.”
LW, this tells me that because you got burned once, you were determined that your next boyfriend be everything that you wanted. To stay true to that, you’re forcing a lot of things about this relationship to be the way you want – you want your boyfriend’s past to be a certain way and you want his behavior now to be a certain way – and anything less than that is unsatisfactory.
I can tell you right now that this relationship probably won’t work, specifically because you are forcing it to fit a mold that it simply does not. Your boyfriend slept with 2 sisters and didn’t tell you about it. That’s a fact. If that history bothers you, that’s ok. Personally, I think it speaks to his character that he would have sex with one sister and then 2-3 months later have sex with another. You have every right to be turned off by that, and to think that that sort of behavior reflects poorly on him and that it doesn’t match with the values you’d like your partner to have is perfectly alright. There ARE guys out there who will share similar values with you and who will have the kind of character you’re looking for.
But guess what? You aren’t going to find it in this current relationship. You vehemently dislike and are morally against what he did in the past; you even said you wouldn’t date him if you could go back in time. Well, this is your chance to MOA. Your boyfriend is who he is, and you shouldn’t try to change him if you aren’t OK with that. Cutting him off from friends, telling him who he can and cannot see, that’s controlling. Two people deserve to be exactly who they are in a relationship, without one forcing things and controlling the other. If who he is dissatisfies you this much, it’s the wrong relationship for you.
So move on. But remember – the next person you date can’t be forced to fit your mold. They have to fit with you naturally, without interrogation. Instead of making them swear that they “don’t have a crazy past,” sit back and observe their current behavior. What a person does will tell you almost everything you need to know about their character and values. Spend time being a shrewd observer, and I guarantee you’ll find someone who naturally fits with you.
I think he was the one who tried to force the relationship into a mold that wasn’t real. He lied about his past and pretended to be someone he wasn’t. When someone tells you who they are you need to believe them and so when she told him she couldn’t accept a crazy past she meant it and he should have believed her. Instead he lied and that has probably destroyed this relationship. Now she is trying to make the past go away by banning his relationship with his friend and that won’t work because his past is his past and neither of them can pretend it away or change her values by pretending.
He needed to respect her enough to be honest from the start and go on to tell her he wouldn’t behave that way while with her and that he would be faithful and ask her to give him a chance based on the present. He chose to lie and that’s why they’re in this situation and I’m sure it’s hurting both of them.
Well, while he probably shouldn’t have lied when she asked him point blank about his past, I absolutely don’t believe that HE is the sole reason they are where they are. She’s doing a lot of forcing in this relationship, too. It seems they both have contrary morals and values, and both of them are trying to force something that just doesn’t fit together.
I don’t really see a lie in this letter. I mean, the LW told her boyfriend at the beginning, “I don’t want to date a guy with a crazy past.” I guess we’re all assuming, and the LW is assumign too, that at that point he was supposed to disclose every detail of his sexual history — and in particular that he slept with a woman once and then a few months later slept with her sister. … But is that really a per se crazy past? It’s not like he was sleeping with or dating two sisters at the same time. It probably didn’t even cross his mind whenever the LW said she doesn’t want a guy with a crazy past. I don’t know though, lately my idea of normal is all fucked up. So take that with a grain of salt.
No, I agree with you. The sleeping with his friend’s ex just a few days after they broke up is questionable, as is the sister thing, but at the same time…everything looks differently when you’re living in it. When you look back over your life “a few months” seems like a short time to go between partners (Ok, sisters particularly), but when you’re living it it can seem like a LONG time to not be with anybody.
But she said
“I told him if he had slept with any friends he hung out with then I wouldn’t be okay with it. He told me he never had.”
So she was specfic about what crazy meant to her. If she just said crazy past then they both would probably have very different ideas about what she meant and both be honest.
She was upfront about what she couldn’t handle just trying to avoid this situation.
Oh that’s true, I forgot that part. So I guess he was supposed to say he slept with his friend. But she’s fixating on the fact that he slept with two sisters and I’m not sure the other sister is a friend of his … In any event, I guess what’s important is that this seems like a dealbreaker for her, and that’s her right. She has the right to demand certain things from her boyfriend and MOA until she finds someone she’s comfortable with.
Yeah, he probably just thought he could get away with it. If my partner said something like that to me when we FIRST started dating, especially if I didn’t foresee the relationship turning into something as serious as it is, I might lie about it too. I don’t think it’s entirely fair – I’m friends with ex-boyfriends and ex-partners and I think that it’s not only OK but also a sign of maturity, and I don’t want to lose their friendhsip every time I’m dating someone. I also have several guy friends and I hate it when they get girlfriends who start getting jealous/paranoid when we hang out.
I guess I’m sort of playing devil’s advocate here. I’m not saying it was OK that he lied, but I can also see why he did. Especially if they were living in different towns at the beginning of the relationship – he probably didn’t have the foresigt to realize that these 2 women might become friends and this information might come out.
Wait a minute, how did the LW figure all this out now, anyway? Did the BF decide to come clean, did the LW snoop, or did someone else let it slip?
I find myself wondering two things:
1. Did she *really* define crazy past completely? We know she mentioned sleeping with current friends, but did any other sexual topics come up or did she just assume he would figure it out? I mean, serial monogamy and FWB’s aren’t exactly considered “crazy past” by most people (correct me if I’m wrong).
2. Is it possible that he honestly forgot about the ex-lover friend? Since we know (or have reason to believe) that he hasn’t messed around with her for at least a year and a half, maybe more, he may have gotten used to seeing her only in a platonic light. If the question caught him off-guard, it’s possible that he spoke without thinking.
Not trying to make excuses, just idle speculation…
This would’ve been my comment had I been as good with words as you were.
Well said.
I agree – she isn’t likely to be able to forgive him.
I say do your boyfriend a favor and leave, so he has the chance to find someone who won’t be so harshly judgmental. Yes, he lied to you about his past. Understandable, because you you basically told him that you were going to judge him based on his past and not his present, which unless he was convicted of a violent crime or something similar, you had no reason to do. Everyone has a past. And unfortunately for you a person’s past can’t be changed. He is who he is, he did what he did. He’s a great guy NOW which is what should matter. As much as you feel hurt and betrayed, think about how your boyfriend feels, being judged and ‘hated’ for something he can’t change now after being a good boyfriend to you for two years. Make up your mind to move past it NOW or start packing.
“do your boyfriend a favor and leave, so he has the chance to find someone who won’t be so harshly judgmental”
He DID have the chance to find someone not so judgmental–but he chose the LW, who clearly pointed out how judgmental she is when she layed out her dealbreakers to him in the beginning of their relationship. He had the chance to see her for who she truly was–he knew what he was getting into–she didn’t have the same advantage.
Wow, LW you are living on another planet. Just do your boyfriend a favour and break-up with him. You have got to realize that everyone has a past. So he slept with two sisters, so what. People have one night stands, friends with benefits, sleep with their friends exes, etc, etc. Does that make your boyfriend a disgusting person? I gotta say NO it doesn’t, it makes him a guy. There are so many people out there in abusive relationships, why do people like you find the most ridiculous things to complain about. If he is a good guy and treats you with respect that should be all that matters. And as far as the lying? He obviously knew you couldn’t handle the truth. Bring on the purple thumbs!
we are flying purple thumb free now – I personally liked your comment
Hahahahaha. Your comment made me think of A Few Good Men. YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
Can I just say how awesome it would’ve been if he had responded to the LW in that way? Hahahahahaha.
I have to say, I both agree and disagree with this. The LW has the right to her dealbreakers, no matter what they are, and we really shouldn’t judge her for that. On the other hand, I think the LW really put her boyfriend on a pedestal and was expecting way too much from him. A person without a past? Come on, he’s only human. It’s unfair to ask someone to be perfect.
totally agree for both your agreement and disagreement
LW – I am sorry your BF lied to you. That is shitty behavior, but you know what else is shitty behavior? Punishing someone for behavior and actions they did before they ever came in contact with you. You are not clear on the time line, but it sounds like this happened well in the past and also that he only had one night stands (I could be wrong on the timing and the frequency). If you can’t forgive him for sleeping with someone then you need to get out of the relationship and let him find someone that won’t hold him hostage based on his past.
Probably the only chance to hook up with a guy that has no past is to find a monk. Then your the one that creates a past with him. It all sounds very confusing to me.
But if she found a monk and started dating him, he would have broken vows and clearly would never be able to keep a promise. She needs to find Brendan Fraser from Blast From the Past!
She never said she wanted to hook up with a guy with no past, she said she wanted to hook up with a guy that didn’t have a crazy past, and defined the type of crazy she was talking about. It is very easy to find a guy that doesn’t sleep with his friends, and roommates ex’s right after they break up(I wouldn’t be friends with this type of person), and to find a guy that doesn’t sleep with sisters one right after the other (if this was one of my friends he would get a high five). I’m not saying there is anything wrong with what this guy did (besides the lying), but she doesn’t find this moraly ok, and that is ok too.
bingo.
I think, if you can’t handle this, then maybe you shouldn’t be with him. My boyfriend had way more sexual experiences than I did (still do) when we started dating. It hasn’t affected our relationship, 3 yrs later. But, I’m not you, we are all different, obv. However, in this day & age, as many people are saying, your chances of finding a guy with no sexual past, are slim to none. & honestly, why would you want to? By nature, men are far more sexual creatures than women, I think it’s a good thing when they have more experiences bc it inclines them more to settle down then I guy who hasn’t had many…
I think that, yeah you should be upset that he lied to you, but that’s it. At this point, I feel the only thing you can do is evaluate yourself & your feelings, if you can’t deal with this, then MOA until you find a man that fits your mold of “perfection”, but if you really love your boyfriend & he is great all around, then you can work around this. It’s up to you.
I think it’s a good thing when they have more experiences bc it inclines them more to settle down then I guy who hasn’t had many…
This. Like I said above my husband has WAY more experience than me. At the beginning o our r/ship I was always worried about that, but he said that he had “gotten it out of his system” so to speak, so was ready for a different type of r/ship. Plus if you think about it, it’s kind of flattering that after a guy has been with a lot of women they choose you to settle down with. 🙂
It really is! I think it’s a pretty beneficial thing & not something to be judged on. Had she been the one with the “crazy” past & her bf have her same views, I don’t think she would like being judged soley on that. I know everyone is entitled to their own values, morals, views, etc… but if he’s a great guy all around, why judge on solely that?
I scoffed a bit at the part where LW says she was “entitled” to an honest boyfriend. It’s like these kids who graduate college and feel they are entitled to a great job. Sorry hon, life don’t work that way. You are not a princess, and you will suffer dishonesty from people in your life just like the rest of us. Your bf may have shown some moral misjudgment in the past, but I understand why he may have kept things from you considering that you are judgmental and have extremely little sexual experience.
Comments like this make me want the purple thumb back. Sorry, but we are ALL entitled to have SOs that are honest. Trust and intimacy can’t grow in a bed of lies. I personally don’t have the same values as this LW and don’t really understand why his being friends with this other girl makes her so uncomfortable. But it does, and she’s allowed to feel that way.
I can see where the LW is coming from here. The LW was honest and told him up front that she couldn’t handle it if he were still friends with a girl he’d slept with. That’s her choice to make, regardless of what anyone else thinks. There are certainly plenty of guys out there who would have no problem with that condition. He rolled the dice by lying to her, and he lost. Since the lie happened at the start of their relationship, it has assumed greater importance to her – it’s foundational, as it were. I think she should go ahead and break up with him. It’s not fair to stay with him and hold the mistake over his head – that’s punitive. Just move on and find someone with the same values
I actually like the no purple thumbs….because at least we can now know why people disagree.
Me too. I feel like we get a lot more constructive discussion this way, instead of just drive-by purple thumbs. Plus, we don’t get the annoying, “Ok why is everyone thumbing me down?” posts 😉
drive-by purple thumbs! awesome description! and totally agree with you.
Lucy, saying we are entitled to something suggests that we have a right to have it. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and trust that you understand people do not have a right to an honest boyfriend. If that were the case, we would go to lawyers with our bf troubles instead of to Wendy.
I see where you’re coming from, but I take issue with LW’s use of the word “entitled”. A sense of entitlement almost always leads to bad things (disappointment, anger, treating others like crap, etc…).
I disagree. You are not entitled to have anything unless you work for it. And even then, life is full of surprises.
“It’s foundational” – YES. Because it happened at the beginning of the relationship, when they were first getting to know each other and establishing trust, she’s now questioning every single thing that’s happened since then, and re-evaluating him through a different lens. I think she’s having major panic, wondering if she really “knows him at all” anymore.
I bet that what Yozi has the issue with is the LW’s use of the word (and sentiment) of “entitled.”
You aren’t entitled to an honest SO. Entitled refers to title, or legal ownership of, something. If I order a pizza and pay for it, I am then entitled to a pizza, and it is the pizza place’s legal obligation to convey to me my pizza. There is no one to “convey” to you an honest SO, or an SO at all — no one has that obligation. I don’t even mean to reduce it to a legal exchange, but it is the fact that where there is an entitlement, there is an obligation. If LW is entitled to an honest SO, someone is obligated to convey her one. Who has that obligation? the SO fairy? If only…
That is not to say you should and can not INSIST on an honest SO. And once you’ve established the requirement of honesty with someone, they owe you honesty, in return for your love and affection, and commitment. So I agree that she was entitled to honesty from her SO, after it was established that she insisted on it. But she wasn’t, and neither is anyone, nebulously “entitled” to an honest SO, to fall into their lap from the SO fairy.
The SO fairy 🙂
Is that what we are calling Cupid these days?
This could catch on..
I want to like this a million times.
Oh man. Off-topic, but just this morning I was listening to a radio program about this. They had on a university professor and a student, and they were talking about the level of entitlement. The student had NO IDEA. The professor was saying that the students don’t bother with the readings anymore, because it’s too much work, and they expect high grades for doing very little. The student’s response? That the courses have to “cater” to them more, and make sure the readings aren’t old but are something more modern. In University? Seriously? So, the history of what you’re studying is not at all important? Man, that attitude drives me up the wall.
I agree with Wendy that the LW’s expectations of what a relationship is are too high. I am a little confused about your definition of a “crazy past.” In my mind, yes, sleeping with two sisters is a crazy pass. But a guy sleeping with a girl that’s in his social circle? That’s not crazy and it happens all the time, especially in those drunken college years. You are basically looking for a guy with no past and a guy that has no contact with any woman he has ever slept with. That’s a pretty tall order. Plus there’s the whole debate about how much privacy or secrecy one is allowed in a relationship. It’s my personal opinion that in a relationship partners do not need to list or discuss all past sexual partners. I know others believe differently, but I feel like you are entitled to keep that information private. Clearly, you do not believe this, but I also feel like your boyfriend isn’t allowed any privacy in his life therefor he felt compelled to lie to you from the beginning. Clearly your boyfriend is not the person you thought he is nor is he the type of person you would choose to date. Cut your losses, move out, and move on. But in the process I would reconsider your standards and expectations of a relationship.
Yup.
totally agree, as long as he was safe in those previous encounters (i.e. no STDs) why is it any of her business to know the dirty details of his sexual past? What if he only slept with 3 people before he dated her, and 2 of those 3 just happened to be the sisters? Is he still considered a ‘slut’? I’m guessing the LW’s definition of a crazy past is going to get progressively more strict if she decides to move on until she’s left with zero men in her dating pool.
Or to put it this way LW: what if you met a wonderful man whom you loved, and a few months in he told you he would only date virgins. You figure to yourself “I’ve slept with one man before, I have no STD’s, I’m not putting this guy at risk, I’m a great person and girlfriend to him so what harm will a little white lie be if I tell him I’m a virgin?” You have to look at it from your boyfriend’s perspective and consider that you’re not treating him fairly.
I think at the end of the day the issue is really a lot simpler than we’re all making it:
LW has different views, values, and standards than her bf. She went in (as most people do) determined to stick to her guns and not compromise those views. However, after getting emotionally involved, she found she was able to compromise (as evident in the fact that she is still with him). Obviously when we do something against our original views it confuses us and we begin to question our decisions (do I listen to me THEN or listen to me NOW?). My advice to the LW is to follow what you think NOW. You love this guy now. You chose to stay with him now. Don’t question your decisions of the present because they conflict with those of your past. I think that is what is bothering you far more than his omission of a sexual past with a friend or with his promiscuous behavior of sleeping with siblings. I think you’re using those as excuses to validate your previous views, because what exactly changed when you learned of this information? Nothing. He didn’t change who he was, your chemistry together never changed, and your feelings for *each other* never changed. Trust that and get by it. And I know it’s awkward and you may feel a little self-conscious in her presence, but don’t ask him to drop friends or disassociate with people you BOTH were friends with just so you can pretend this never happened. It did. The same things that made you want to befriend her still hold true, she is still the same person.
I’d like to step back in to make one point. There seems to be a divide between those who say “People are allowed to have a sexual past before you meet them!” and those who say “Ew, he’s a d-bag with bad character.”
I think what’s important for the LW to realize is that YES, people are allowed to have a sexual history. BUT, sometimes that sexual history is a reflection of their morals, values and character, which CAN change, but more often are ingrained parts of what makes a person who they are.
I think the LW needs to discern whether or not her boyfriend is totally reformed from the kind of person who would sleep with 2 sisters back to back, one right after breaking up with his roommate, or if, even though it’s in the past, he still has the same character and values that led him to do that. If it’s the latter, the LW should surely move on, because she clearly does NOT have the same values as her boyfriend, which is a dealbreaker.
I totally get what you’re both saying but I think my issue with reading the LW’s letter is she doesn’t want to date anyone with a crazy past. Before she goes in to her next relationship (if she decides this is a dealbreaker with this guy) she needs to more fully decide what crazy means and what points she is and isn’t willing to be flexible on.
Would someone who had slept with two sisters say be worse for her than someone who was still friends with someone they had slept with? Is she actually more put off by the lying or of his sexual past.
Having ultimatums with sexual past is hard because like you said it can be ingrained in the person or it could be a series of really bad mistakes the person made when the were younger that no longer are part of who they are.
You are right too and I definitely don’t agree with ultimatums. I guess my point is now that the LW knows what she needs in a partner and knows she is sexually conservative then maybe she will keep those opinions to herself (she was preachy from the letter) and let a man show her who he is before getting into a sexual relationship. IF she had not been so judgy this may have come out sooner and the LW would have been able to make a more logical / rational decision about the relationship rather than emotionally nasty.
I think a lot of the commenters that are saying “what is the big deal?” are more sexually liberal…which is fine…I don’t begrudge anyone of that and I have a lot of friends who I care a lot about that are sexually liberal…but just because they view it as not a big deal doesn’t give them the right to say someone else can’t view it as a big deal. I’m hoping if the LW was less judgy about the actions and more focused on her uncomfortableness and the lying in the letter that the divide here amonst the commenters wouldn’t be so bad.
I don’t begrudge her that either, but like you said I think she sounded kind of preachy too. Which if she knows that’s what she’s wants, fine. But, I think like you said you need to wait to start a sexual relationship and get to know the person more. And that’s where I think she really needs to decide what ‘crazy’ is for her and what she’s willing to live with or what she wants to MOA from.
I think the flip side of that is, does she need to know about every single sexual experience her significant others have had. If she feels she does she’s going to need to find someone who is fine with either listing all of his sexual experiences so she can decide if they are or aren’t crazy. Or find someone without a sexual past. I guess that part is where I felt she was being the most judgey. Does another person deserve to know and judge every sexual act you’ve ever done? Or is it more important that the person they are now meets your expectations of a partner?
I think your last 2 questions are what’s at the heart of this debate. But the answers aren’t set in stone. Some people don’t care and don’t want to know what their partner did in the past. Some people want to share and want to know, and I think that if both partners reach an understanding on what they’ll share, that’s OK. The problems, of course, set in when the couple has different definitions of “crazy” and when one wants an upfront run-down, and when one doesn’t want to share.
I definitely agree and I guess that’s what is causing the debate on here. People coming from both sides of the issue!
From the tone of the letter I think the details are secondary. I think it is more that he lied and allowed this friendship and relationship with he and the other girl to blossom because of that lie. The dealbreaker was being close friends with someone he had been with – from someone with similar issues I don’t think she would ban him from talking to anyone he’s been with, but a close hang out all the time friendship is tough for that personality which she knew ahead of time and wanted to air out in the beginning so neither of them wasted their time and emotions.
I definitely don’t agree with her controlling behavior as a result of it. She probably should have just ended it because it was a deal breaker for her in the beginning. All of this is obviously my supposition.
I agree that his lying is a dealbreaker for her and she should see that part of it for what it is. I guess the details of the sisters added flame to the fire for her and are making the lying issue worse.
I agree with your assessment that a lot of the people saying “what’s the big deal?” are more sexually liberal. That’s fine for them, but I don’t want the LW to feel undue pressure to conform to other people’s sexual norms. I don’t like when a bunch of us, sometimes without meaning to, gang up on a LW and seemingly force them to abide by a standard they aren’t comfortable with. Sure, everyone has a sexual past, but I’m SURE she can find a guy who’d also think it was sketchy to have slept with 2 sisters back-to-back and to have slept with one of them the day after breaking up with his friend. I know plenty of guys who have more conservative values and morals when it comes to sex – they aren’t as rare as people seem to think.
I don’t think they’re as rare as people think either, but I think the root of what she needs to deal with is like Wendy said, no one is perfect. It sounds like she has certain expectations for her SO that are perfectly fine and it’s great to know what you want! But, don’t let your list of the perfect person stand in the way of finding that person. And that’s what I was talking about in the beginning. Her definition of crazy. The two sisters back to back might not be crazy to him. He did outright lie about having a sexual relationship with a friend. And it could be that she can’t stay with him, and she shouldn’t if it’s something she doesn’t want in a partner. But, know that you’re looking for someone sexually conservative and persue that. Don’t try and date people who aren’t sexually conservative and then judge each sexual act they’ve had and not expect to be disappointed.
Her bigger issue is her statement that “this guy was supposed to be special and not a liar”. I agree with you, Regina, that she’s allowed to decide whether his sexual past is disgusting to her. But she’s putting a lot of pressure on the guy to be perfect. If she breaks up with him, is the next guy supposed to be even MORE special, to make up for this guy? That’s why I think Wendy was right to say that her expectations are too high. Not necessarily sexual expectations, but expectations in general.
Yea I think there are two sides with one side really not getting the point of the other. None of us are saying we expect a virgin saint to drop down from the heavens.
Exactly. The LW seems to be a more conservative person with more conservative sexual values. If they boyfriend behaved so questionably in the past, according to her value system, it’s not wrong to question whether his values are too different from her’s NOW.
except that it seems like she is pretty happy with their relationship & how he is a bf – she should be concerned with who is & how he behaves now rather than how he behaved in the past before she even knew him
She didn’t say he couldn’t have a past. She said she didn’t want to hang out with his past. She assumed he had a past and that was okay as long as it wasn’t too “crazy.” We don’t know how specific she was about crazy but we do know she was specific about hanging out with past sexual experiences.
If I were a lesbian, I’d want to marry you. But I also think the same of budjer. Should I start up the Dear Wendy Connection of the day and try to set you two up? 🙂
Then would you change you screen name to Lesbie_Honest ?
HAY-oh
f’in genius!
How come almost every post reminds me of SNL ?
— Now I’m thinking Betty White
I think you’re talking to me, and if so, I’m flattered! I’m also not lesbian, unfortunately. I’d consider a blind date with Budjer, I enjoy his musings.
Oh this Dear Wendy Connections is going to be GOOOOD !!
PS I think Silver_Dragon_Girl already has an e-crush on Budj.. ( and on me too right, SDG ? ) so you gals are going to have to cat-fight it out for him 😀
Indeed. BACK OFF! 😉
OK, I’ve switched teams (and sign in names), when’s are first date?
Hahah you are so awesome…now, as I say to everyone, get an avatar !!!
I am the world’s most indecisive person. Do you have any idea how long it would take me to decide on an appropriate avatar that would display ME? Impossible. The ‘lets be honest’ was the first phrase of what I wanted to say when I finally became a commenter, so I just stuck with it. Had I really wanted it to be defining, I would not be commenting until 2013 the earliest. I have issues.
I know exactly how you feel. I remember when I got my first avatar on the Frisky. It really, really represented me ( funny, the clock reference i made earlier pretty much ties in with it ) Now I just cropped a photo my face but the meaning is different.
if I may, can I suggest an image ? ( I have something in mind for you but need to find the best representation of it )
Actually, I should offer that service, because of my work, I’m pretty good at finding the perfect image to represent very specific things 🙂
Please do! However, I clicked on the gravatar link below. lets_be_honest isn’t available! Having to choose a new name would send me into a spiral of indecisiveness.
Pfff… don’t worry about that, TheOtherMe was also not available & I have been using it for over 2 years. I just logged in Gravatar with TheOtherMe2011 but I always post just using TheOtherMe. Clear as mud ?
Oh, ok then perfect. So what is the picture??
coming soon…
Haha, I don’t think either of you ladies would appreciate some of my personal habits…but I’m flattered.
So long as when we tell you what we don’t like, for example, sleeping with 4 sisters at the same time while you watch old homemade porn of you and my new best friend/your ex, and you don’t omit the fact that you do 🙂
And actually that sounds pretty kinky.
Is it wrong that I only clicked on this comment in the email because of the word “kinky’ ???
haha absolutely not…at least you know it isn’t NSFW. 😉
…which just takes all the fun out of it, doesn’t it?
Well, that’s just it, EVERYTHING is SFW when you work from home 😉
Entitled to an honest boyfriend, huh? Entitled. Wow. That’s all I got. I thought only royalty were supposed to be entitled. My bad.
I’m kind of curious as to how this even came up two years later. It seems so after the fact.
Putting aside everything everyone else already said, this is the thing that jumped out at me:
“He told me he regretted what happened with her, which is why he hid it and moved on, but his initial reaction to my freaking out about all this was to claim that I had lied about being more liberal than I really am.”
So, you told him that if he’d slept with one of his friends it would be uncomfortable for you, so he lied about it, and then when you found out he lied, he initially tried to put the blame on you for how you felt about it? That’s kind of shitty.
You say you love him and sometimes you hate him. Answer this: do you like him? No really. Is he otherwise a good person that you enjoy spending time with, that you have fun with, who you think–despite the past–will be a good partner to you in life, who you share values and goals with? Because that’s what a relationship comes down to. He may not be the partner you want or need. Only you can answer that, and if he’s not, you shouldn’t be made to feel like the “bad guy” because your life values and goals don’t match up with his. It’s okay to have values and want someone who shares them. It’s more than okay. It’s essesntial for a relationship to work.
Honestly, I think the LW is a control freak. I cannot put into words how ignorant the LW is. She has what she thought was a perfect man, told him up front he couldn’t be friends with ANY person he slept with (which is a major red flag), I would have lied too. Especially seeing how close of friends he apparently was with the original sister. Not too mention she says there are times that she hates him so much for what happened and she feels traumatized, honey I think the man should be the one who feels hatred and traumatized, you made him cut off friends for you!!! LW is efffing crazy and should probably consider finding a virgin and starting over.
Don’t you think it would’ve been better for the BF to just tell LW the truth? If he thought that was a major red flag, he shouldn’t have been with her in the firstplace.
I’m friends with everyone I’ve ever slept with. Duh! I slept with them because I like them!! I don’t have a harem of men, because it turned out that I wasn’t in love with all of them : )
I have also lied by omission about a past hook-up, because it wasn’t a big deal to me or the friend/hook-up, but it would have made my boyfriend uncomfortable since the guy was a very close mutual friend. I think it was the right decision not to tell & if it had ever come out, I think my boyfriend would have understood why I never said anything.
I’m not a control freak, but you have the right to believe otherwise. Even when he was friends with this girl, he always sort of implied that she was immature and used people, which I sort of brushed off. And he also later mentioned how he only stayed friends with the girl in question because she was in his inner circle and he didn’t want to lose his friends overall. He also brought up how this friend slept with him and basically started dating someone ASAP and he felt really used by her. That’s not the basis of a good friendship, and he doesn’t seem to chopped up over not having in her life, actually he seems a bit relieved that he doesn’t have to put up with her anymore.
It’s interesting to see how varied the responses to this letter are.
I really sympathize for the boyfriend. If I were the boyfriend, I wouldn’t have thought of the sister story as being “crazy.” Also, it seems like this guy & his lady-friend are really close, so it makes sense to me that he would have omitted it when she asked him if he’d slept with anyone in his inner circle. I think he probably just didn’t have “real” feelings for his friend, but circumstances led to a one-night hook-up so he thought it would be better to never say anything.
If I were the LW, I would
a) forgive, & allow the lady-friend back in the boyfriend’s life (since she’s not a “threat” & the boyfriend & the LW obviously like/value her)
or
b) MOA & save everyone a lot of stress
LW is at fault for not asking open ended questions in reference to sexual past. Her question was leading, and of course her boyfriend told her what she wanted to hear. Lying is wrong, but a truthful answer would not come in the manner she asked. People are entitled to ask about the past, but in a way to make good judgements based on what they value, not to be judgmental against others who can’t change the past.
Is that judgmental of you? Um, yeah, kind of. Or at least I feel judged, and I’m not even your boyfriend. I hooked up with a set of roommates in college. And about half my guy friends. Ooops. As long as your boyfriend is faithful to you now, does it matter who he’s been with in the past? Or that he’s been with more people than you have? Does finding these things out now really change anything about your relationship?
Personally, the sleeping with two sisters is kind of sketchy. The still being friends with a woman he slept with isn’t really sketchy. I’d be more concerned if all the women he ever slept with hated him, but those are my values. You have yours and you’re entitled to them, though please do be aware that your letter made you sound very judgmental.
That’s not really the point though, the lying is. Honestly, can you blame the guy for lying? He meets this girl, and he really really likes her. She’s kinda far away, but he’s really feeling this and he’s willing to do long distance because he thinks this could work out. Then she says “By the way, if you’ve ever slept with any of your friends, I’m dumping you.” And he’s like….”shit.” But he really likes this girl, right? And besides, it’s not like he ever dated any of his female friends, just hooked up with some of them a while ago. And everyone is all totally over it. He’s certainly not going to end these friendships now, over a relationship that’s only just starting. So he lies. I’m not saying lying was right; you identified this as a deal breaker for you, and rather than deal with the reality, he lied. I am saying I’m not sure I would have behaved any differently.
I entirely understand your betrayal at being lied to. And you probably feel embarrassed too, that everyone but you knew. You’re embarrassed that you befriended this woman. That embarrassment is one of the worst feelings. But here’s the thing, whenever I have had that feeling, its been because the lying was so unnecessary. If someone had just told me the truth, it would have been dealt with and over in ten seconds. Your situation is a little different: he lied to you, but the thing he lied about is also a deal breaker for you. So do you let it be a deal breaker and let it end an otherwise wonderful relationship? Or do you deal with the damage the lie itself has called, but re-evaluate sexual history as a deal breaker?
Personally, I’d deal with the lie and the embarrassment, and see if those are things you can move past or not. I wouldn’t make the sexual past an automatic deal breaker though. Amber said this really well farther up: “Does another person deserve to know and judge every sexual act you’ve ever done? Or is it more important that the person they are now meets your expectations of a partner?”
*lie has caused. not called. Someone was on skype until the wee hours of the morning and isn’t very functional today.
Doing what we were talking about yesterday ?
😉
I agree, and well-said.
The feeling embarassed part is so true, when I found out about some of the people I know that my husband had slept with previously I felt totally embarassed, esp because I didn’t know about it previously (maybe if I had I would have been more prepared?) Not to mention the fact that when it was known in our workplace that my husband and I were together one of his ex- whatevers took it upon herself to blab to EVERYONE there that she had been with him before.
Granted I am pretty paranoid, which I guess didn’t help my situation.
Without getting into who was wrong or whatever, all I can say is if you are in a relationship in which you are forbidding your significant other from seeing one of their friends, then it is probably not the relationship for you. It is not fair for either party involved.
I just actually tried to “like” this multiple times. I really agree.
This is the best summation of the situation! I agree so hard.
Not only are you judgmental, but you seem to have an inability to look past what people “do” and to see them as they really are….
So what your boyfriend slept with someone else; was he not supposed to have a life before he met you? Sure, he lied to you about it, but you basically gave him an ultimatum and it seems like he really liked you and didn’t want to risk losing you over it when it was clearly in his past.
I think it’s sad that you made him cut off communication with this girl when she was also your friend. Was she not a good friend to you? You obviously liked her enough to introduce her to your mother!
There are women my husband has slept with that I am friends with and it changes nothing. He is YOUR boyfriend, and he loves you. Maybe instead of thinking how duped you feel you should put a positive spin on things and use this as a growing experience:
Had your boyfriend told you all this before, perhaps you wouldn’t have embarked on what sounds like an otherwise great relationship. Now that you see that his past doesn’t necessarily dictate who he is today perhaps you can re-evaluate your initial judgment on people and their past experiences.
Either way, I think you need to lighten up and enjoy what you have rather than looking back.
I don’t mean to throw this at you specifically, or intend to be nasty at all…but are you cool with it when your husband lies to you? Because that’s what you’re advice to LW is. Since when is lying not a big deal? I’m surprised how many commenters are implying that.
If he had told her, he would have lost a friend & lost some trust from his girlfriend…
By telling her, everyone is upset & no one gains.
Lying is not always wrong, IMO — like the moral dilemma about stealing the drug to cure your wife?
Heinz dilemma aside, and minor things like ‘yes, that dress makes you look fat,’ I disagree. I had a boyfriend once say ‘well, i would’ve told you if i didn’t think you would be really mad.’ Well, that was the end of that for me. Once I know you can justify lying for your benefit only (to get out of a fight), I think you’re a liar.
Yeah, but…..I don’t know if everyone feels similarly, but I’ve never shared specific sexual history with my SOs. I don’t think it’s their/my place to even ask. In that sense, I think he was not obligated to reveal that information. He could have said, “I don’t want to talk about that,” but I think that would have made LW crazy.
She brought this up it seems when they were in the casual getting to know you phase…there was nothing to lose…just a parting of ways due to different views.
I was under the impression that he lied AFTER she told him that she would be upset if he had slept with a friend. I think he was trying to protect her because he knew she had been burned in the past. It absolutely doesn’t excuse lying and I don’t think he approached it ideally, but from the story we heard it appeared to me that he had her best interests at heart.
I disagree. What you “do,” whether you like it or not, is an inherent part of who you are. It doesn’t mean you can’t change or grow as a person, but it CAN define you. You also say that “Now that you see that his past doesn’t necessarily dictate who he is today”…but where does it say that his past no longer dictates who he is today? He could very well still maintain the same morals and values, contrary to the LW’s morals and values, that led him to sleep with 2 sisters and a buddy’s ex. He could have totally changed, or they could be at a total impasse in regard to aligning their values, which means this isn’t the right relationship for her. And lastly, I think it’s wrong for any of us to tell her to “lighten up.” Just because some of us think she’s overreacting doesn’t mean she isn’t allowed to feel this strongly. If she has certain values and sexual standards she wants her partner to meet, then she needs to dump this guy and find someone who WILL meet them…not “lighten up.”
“Erleichda”
: )
What you do is what you are. To see who a person is you need to watch their actions and that tells you far more than what they say. Doing is everything.
LW, you need to sit down and ask yourself if this is a relationship you truly want to save. I agree with other comments that you have set your expectations extremely high–probably too high. You need to ask yourself if you’re holding your expectations so high because you were burned in the past or because this is actually a legitimate dealbreaker. Did your man lie because he never wanted you to find out or because he didn’t want to lose you? This man has never cheated. It sounds like he has treated you well. He has cut ties with the woman he slept with because you forced him to. Let me tell you something, pretty much every guy I know does NOT want to be forced to do something by their significant other. If you want to keep him in your life, you’re going to have to let up a little bit and let go of these things that have been plaguing you.
Now, I get where you’re coming from. I too am sexually conservative and expect my significant others to have similar values in that department–honestly, who doesn’t?–but what is in the past is in the past. Digging it up won’t change anything. My current man has similar beliefs as me but has been honest with me in the fact that he has been in many more relationships than I have and thus had more experience, but I didn’t let that get to me. I love the man that he is now, and without those past relationships, he would not have been shaped into the man that I know today.
So ask yourself if this lie your guy told you about never sleeping with any of his friends is something you can get over. I understand that you were hurt in the past, I get that, but from my perspective it sounds like he just was trying not to hurt you. You need to decide if you should MOA or just let things go because if you keep him on this short leash, he will be gone before you know it.
I think that what the LW is missing (and a lot of the commenters) is a key point in this whole scenario. I will leave my personal opinions aside for the moment, because I really don’t think that being friends with someone you slept with, sleeping with sisters MONTHS apart, and even sleeping with an old roommates girlfriend is CRAZY…. But there is definitely a way to find out.
How did everyone in the situation FEEL at the time? I think that will ultimately decide for you whether or not what this boy did in his past was something to be ashamed of. Talk to him about the general details (not-porno-style obviously) to see exactly how the situation played out. Maybe his roommate and the lady friend broke up amicably, or it was a drunken mistake. Then maybe the sister came into the picture (months later!) and boyfriend actually felt a connection with her. Or maybe he was 18-19-20. A lot of people do stupid things when they are that age and have a small social circle. I certainly hope I am different from the person I was at 18 and don’t want to be judged for the choices I made (sexual or not!)
Talk to the lady-friend, if you can. Was she hurt by him moving on to the sister? Or was it done with her blessing/permission/knowledge? That would make a HUGE impact on my judgement of the situation. If all of this was done with good intentions and no malicious intent on the part of your boyfriend, then he probably omitted it because it wasn’t a big deal to him. If it was done on the sly, without any sort of moral judgement/sound thinking involved then he probably omitted it because he was embarrassed.
Only you can decide whether that past is compromising the future, but more details and insight (especially from lady friend!) could help you get a better idea of your boyfriend’s moral character both now and in the past.
I don’t share the LW’s values or opinion, but I do totally see where she’s coming from. For some background, I’m a person with a pretty crazy past (um, and present) & it’d actually be nice to date someone who’d barely bat an eye if they found out about my experiences. The whole privacy about your “number” is a nice idea, but at least for me & people in my circle, it’s not very realistic. If I’m with a similiarly open person, things like “did you and ____ ever____?” or “one time during this threesome I had…” will often come up almost nonchalantly in conversation.
So I definitely agree with everyone who’s saying that the LW and her bf have different value systems. And really, I don’t feel as if value systems are something that can be compromised on– at least not in a healthy way. Obviously here, the boyfriend lied or omitted in order to fit into her views of a good partner. Then, once exposed, he cut off all contact with whoever the LW wanted him to. This is a really bad set-up if they continue to be in a relationship– assuming he really IS being so cooperative, I get the feeling it would be temporary. Like, he might genuinely be bending over backwards to please the LW at the moment, but if this other girl would really “be over [your] house today” then he’s going to grow resentful meeting these demands.
The LW sounds super judge-y in her letter, yeah, but she’s owning it. My only problem is that her attitude is assuredly present in the relationship. Even if the bf is ashamed of what he did, or regrets it, the presence of a judgmental significant other is only going to throw a constant, heavy reminder around his neck. No one wants that. Likewise, if his past behavior bothers the LW so much, it’s going to creep into the way she feels and thinks about him on a daily basis. She can make the effort to get past it, but based on how strong her reaction is, it seems like she’d be compromising her belief system (and really, for the benefit of no one in the long run).
I would have recommended that the LW seek an inexperienced, crazy-past-free partner in a more conservative, faith-based social group, but having slept with two guys she wasn’t engaged or married to, she probably doesn’t meet their high standards.
ROFL!!
ROFL!!
perfect response
exactly, and besides I’ve tried to date virgins before or guys who were more conservative and it just didn’t work (timing, flake outs etc)…I’m not looking for a virgin, but maybe someone who doesn’t bone two sisters in succession isn’t too tall of an order. I’m not religious so I’m not interested in faith based social groups and of course that’s another thing, I won’t fit into those guys standards anyway so I’m not trying to pedal backwards here or pretend that I’m a virgin or whatever. My own past is my past and that’s that, but I still have my own standards for myself and am allowed to do so, just like everyone else
By the way you phrased it (“maybe someone who doesn’t bone two sisters in succession isn’t too tall of an order”), it sounds like you’re still feeling really resentful. If that’s the case, and you’re kind of holding a grudge against him for something he can’t go back and change, it’s probably best to just get out of the relationship. Otherwise, it’s always going to be in the back of your mind, and you’ll always look at him differently. If you think you’re able to move past it, then perhaps it will still work out. But you can’t be bitter and keep punishing him over and over again for something that happened a few years ago.
But wait, I thought he dated someone between the two sisters?
But yeah, if you’re going to hold this against him forever bringing it up every time he does anything, then you should probably just leave the relationship.
Keep in mind though: those experiences, judge him for them though you may, helped make him the man you fell in love with. Before you judge someone for their past, keep in mind that their past–good and bad–made them the person they are today.
“And the sisters weren’t back to back, he dated a girl in between who ditched him.”
This is from your comment above. It doesn’t sound like they were in succession. I’m not trying to be nitpicky, but you are contradicting yourself a lot. This comment, and others on the thread.
When I’m feeling indecisive, I tend to do that, too – phrase things differently so the thing that is bothering me sounds worse, then not-so-bad, then horrible, then okay. It’s part of how I work through things, viewing them from all angles. The problem is when you do this when you are asking people for advice, it makes it very hard to give good, balanced advice, since you come back with, “Well, he’s not that bad,” or “No, actually we”re not that close, in fact, we both can’t stand her.” Not knowing you or any of the parties involved, all we have to go on is what you are saying, and as what you are saying changes, so will the advice.
I think this was great of you to point out.
Thanks. It doesn’t make sense to me that she would deliberately lie to strangers on the internet who she came to for help, but she’s clearly not telling the same version of the story every time, not even to herself. I do this with when I’m talking things out with my friends, arguing with them when they give me a solution (one reason my friends have learned to just let me talk to myself when I’m trying to work things out, since what I usually need is a sympathetic ear) because sometimes it’s not the one I want, or sometimes because it seems too easy, if that makes sense.
Being your own devil’s advocate is occasionally helpful, but when you do it through a written medium like this you sound crazy at best and a liar at worst.
I agree with everyone saying that the girl needs to relax a bit. While yes, lying to a direct question was a bad judgement call by the BF, she really had no business asking that question, and if he liked her, he really didn’t have much choice. He lied and hoped for the best. And what if HE told you right in the beginning, “by the way, if you slept with anyone I don’t approve of, you better tell me now, because that speaks to your character, and I wouldn’t date you any more”. And as long as both sisters were consenting adults in whatever relationships they had, I really don’t see a problem there either.
I already posted, but…
“sometimes I just hate him so much” <—- that scares me.
Also, it is more common than one might think to hook up with a good friend's ex. You know both people, you get started talking, there are beer-tears, hugging, &……..
Well the first half of my work day went by pretty quick becuase of this haha, but now I have a headache from reading so much on this computer screen!
I agree. I just cant help but look every once in awhile and I just keep thinking “Uh oh, there’s 75 more comments for me to read!”
Haha exactly, I just came back to the site to read some more! It’s pretty fun though!
It surprises me sometimes how certain letters recieve so many more comments than others, I would’ve thought that this one was a bit more cut and dried than what would seem by the comments!
Yeah I agree, it is pretty simple, the problem is that everyone wants tell the LW that she needs go by their opinion of what’s right or wrong not what hers is.
The thing is, that if the LW thinks this is a deal breaker, and she has all of this disgust, and anger towards her boyfriend because of it, she might need to MOA. It will probably be best for both of them. It shouldn’t matter what the rest of the commenters beliefs are.
It seems pretty obvious that there’s no trust left in this relationship. Not only did you judge him preemptively (“I told him if he had slept with any friends he hung out with then I wouldn’t be okay with it.”) but now, he’s lied to you and you’re hurt. No trust, no relationship.
Christ, woman! If you tell a guy that you won’t go out with him if he has one ‘fault’, and he’s really come to care about you, of course he’s going to lie about it. Honestly, he’d probably consider that a white lie, because there’s a good chance (given he’s with you) that he’s not that person anymore, and just because he was that person in the past, he doesn’t feel like he should be punished now.
I don’t pretend to know you, but through your letter, you come off as uptight, and like you’ve got your head in the clouds. You’re forbidding your boyfriend from seeing close friends, going between hating and loving him, and feeling betrayed all the time. That’s not healthy behavior. The way you reacted to a girl who you seemed to like upon learning of her past tells me that you’re feeling jealous (natural, but not to this degree). And as for the two-sister thing, it’s a little weird, but it’s not like he’s ever had sex with someone unfaithfully or raped anyone. You need to ask yourself why it bugs you so much.
Yeah, it would have been nice if he had told you the truth. But maybe you should’ve given him a chance; ask him what his past is like, rather than threatening right away. Determine from that whether you want to be with him (and hey, who am I to say what a dealbreaker is for you?)
You need to either decide that this is okay with you (and that means letting your boyfriend see his friend), or break up with him, and let him move on. Keeping him in a relationship like this is cruel. If you do break up with him, you still need to work on not being so judgmental. I have come across quite a number of people who ‘own’ being judgmental as a major part of their personality, and it’s unsavory, and unpleasant to be around. Sometimes, being a better person means changing a part of yourself.
X 100 🙂
but he doesn’t WANT to be friends with this chick, he continued it for other friends…even if I ‘allowed’ him to hang with her again I doubt he’d want to, especially since it doesn’t seem like he regards her too highly after what happened between them
This is confusing because in your original letter you don’t really make it sound like your boyfriend doesn’t like her at all, you say:
• a girl I ended up befriending and spent a lot of time with…
• this girl had her birthday parties at my apartment, she ate dinner with my mother
• and my boyfriend even suggested that we move into a communal home with her and her live-in boyfriend
Why would he suggest that if he is is desperately trying to get away from her ?
Yea…the clarification comments take a lot of steam out of the argument.
“clarification” or “backtracking” ?
The lw’s clarifying comments.
Sorry Budj, forgot to use the “sarcastic” font….
I are ashamed.
Yeah come on, LW, we are trying to back you up over here.. give us something to work with! 😛
He still isn’t telling you the truth then, if he told you that. He is probably scared to tell you the truth.
Many of the replies to this letter show surprise at the LW’s reaction to her BF’s actions, and I agree that the response described in the letter feels out of proportion to the actions. In cases where that happens I wonder if the reaction isn’t partly due to unresolved issues in the past…the person is reacting to the past and the present at the same time.
I think it isn’t always possible a reacting person to control those instincutal reactions, but I think there are two lessons that can be learned. First, the offender (BF in this case) gets an unreasonable dose of whatever the reacting person is dishing out and it’s likely that people will side with the offender out of an attempt to support reasonability…which can be mistaken for supporting the offending behavior. Second, I think it’s an eye-opener for the reacting person…because if any of us has a chance at a happier future we need to deal with the past separately so the present can be honored for its own sake.
If this is happening for the LW, I hope she has someone to talk with who can help her separate the issues from the past that might not yet be laid to rest and find a way to deal with them so that her future can be more in proportion.
I feel sorry for the girl that’s banned from the LW and boyfriend’s lives. Seriously, she’s upset this girl (that was her friend) ate dinner with her mother? I don’t understand how the LW can easily cut someone out of her life when it sounds like the girl hasn’t done anything wrong. They slept together a long time ago and she’s dating someone else now. If the LW can’t handle the fact that her boyfriend had sex with someone else before they even knew each other, maybe she should date someone with no sexual history.
so many people are happy to turn around and say- so, he lied about something, that was then he is different now!
what else can be excused because its in the past, what else is ok to lie about? alcohol and drug addiction? criminal past? infidelity? the explanation that “its who i was not who i am now, i am rehabilitated, where is the line in the sand?
the answer is that we each draw our own line in the sand in terms of what is ok for us and the LW was upfront about her line from the start. I am so confused why so many people commenting think they have the right to draw that line for the LW based on their own and then critisize her for not falling inside of it??
i think my issue with that is yes he DID lie about the friend so take that issue and decide whether or not to MOA. saying that if she had known about the two sisters she would never have dated him is something different. she used the word crazy to define what she didn’t want. to him crazy didn’t include the sisters. so stick to your original issue that you asked. for the rest of it she needs to realize that if she is going to ask if something is crazy she is going to need to let the other person know what crazy is to her.
and i think that the other issue is she does come across judgemental. there are ways to ask that sort of question and not immediately put the other person on the defensive. like saying, i am sexually conservative and that is what i’m looking for in a SO. i want someone who hasn’t had sex outside of monogamous relationships. that’s what i value in a partner and what i want. saying you want someone who doesn’t have a crazy past is too open ended. be clear about what you want from someone.
i don’t think that what you do in your sexual past has to define who you are now. and that at least is what i take away from the people who are saying he may be different now. he did those things in the past, now he could only be interested in a monogamous long term relatoinship. that’s something she has to judge since she is the one who knows him.
that being said he lied and she has to decide if she can live with the lie or not. she may learn from the rest of the information she found out what she is and isn’t willing to have in a SO.
very well said.
Okay, here’s my take on this:
You say you are prone to depression, and that your last BF took advantage of you. You don’t specify HOW exactly that last BF took advantage of you. I would assume that from what you’ve written and the way you sound, he did/said things in order to get you to have sex with him, and you lost your virginity to the guy, thinking you’d be married. In any case, because of that, you are trying to make the current relationship “perfect” in your eyes/mind.
Let me burst your bubble now – there is NO SUCH THING AS A ‘PERFECT’ RELATIONSHIP. Superficially, you thought you had one. But, he slept with people that YOU didn’t approve of him sleeping with, therefore, he is being judged by YOUR standards, which in my opinion is a little controlling, considering he didn’t know you when he slept with the other females in question.
Yes, he slept with sisters. 2-3 months apart. Whether they know about each other or not within the sexual timeframe is not your concern, our concern, etc. He did it. It’s in the past. You said yourself that one of them is/was a good friend and that you have no fear of him cheating on you. Sure, he could have been more honest, but you would have walked away because it was “wild/crazy” in your opinion.
He didn’t trick you into falling in love with him, you did that on your own. He just lied about something in order to be able to continue staying in your company, which allowed you to fall in love with him. You can move on if you want, but in this day/age, you won’t find many guys at all without some sexual baggage (which they won’t consider baggage at all, but badges of pride/honor).
You are being prudish. I don’t know what your childhood was like, or what your religious beliefs are, but I would think that they play a factor into it. You can’t control every aspect of a relationship. If you can’t move on from the deception, then get out of the relationship. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have standards. I think you will need to be very careful in your life in order to ensure that your standards are met.
I think you’re being a little harsh with the LW because while we can talk about the sexual past and her coming off judgemental about that…..He did lie to her when asked a question, a question that was important to her. That I think is the issue she needs to focus on and think about as far as this relationship goes. The rest she needs to use as guiding posts for her next relationship. She has learned more about what she is and isn’t willing to accept from her SO’s sexual history (and perhaps what crazy means to her). And she needs to be upfront again with her next SO and define crazy for them. But, hopefully in a non-judgemental way that will encourage the propsective dating partners to be truthful with her. Not that it was her fault he lied! Just hoping she can come off less judgemental than in the letter.
I got the feeling like she felt that it was his fault that she fell in love with him in the first place, and that she was pissed as much about that as the lying about the sex (not to mention WHO the sex was with).
after reading her replies i take back what i said. i’m actually kind of confused now.
You’re not the only one.
Your boyfriend’s past is done and over with. As you mentioned, he regrets some of the things he has done. His past behavior was not meant to hurt you or to spite you and I don’t think that was his intention by not fully disclosing his past with your mutual friend. Like he told you, he probably has moved on and regretted it and more likely than not, he did not want a mistake to ruin his chances with you.
As we’ve seen in other letters, it is common for people to maintain friendships with someone they’ve slept with. I’m curious to know why you are not ok with a guy being friends with someone they have had sex with. I’m wondering if it has to do with your ex. It sounds like your bf and the friend were able to keep things platonic and I find it sad that you would end this relationship with her when you seemed to be close friends.
Your reaction to cut her out of your life and your bf’s life reminds me of the letter about the woman who told her good friend’s fiancee about their past (kiss & an attempt at sex). The fiancee ended the friendship with the woman & made the guy end the friendship, too. Many of the commenters to that letter felt like the fiancee had overreacted by terminating the friendships.
I think that you need to keep in mind that you are judging and punishing your bf & friend based on what your bf views as a mistake from the past. Everyone makes mistakes. You state that your bf “is loyal, has never cheated on anyone, and I don’t have any fear of him cheating on me” and that you are “attached and in love.” Isn’t that more important than a dumb mistake he clearly regrets?
Can you forgive your bf for not being honest about the one night stand he had with a friend that he now regrets? Finding out the truth sometimes sucks and it can take time to accept & process it. I can understand why you would be mad at him for it. My impression of your letter is that while you are disgusted by the things he did in the past, you’re more upset by the fact that he lied about having slept with his friend. Granted, I think his failure to disclose was motivated by his desire to be with you rather than to be hurtful or to dupe you. It sounds like other than this, he is a great bf & that you love him. Focus on why you love him and consider if a regrettable mistake from the past is worth losing out on all that is good about him and your relationship with him.
This a thousand times!!! To paraphrase something my boyfriend told me before he was my boyfriend, “I have sex with girls I like. Having sex with girls I don’t like would be silly.”
I’ve had sex with friends. I’ve stayed friends with many of those people. I sort of make it a policy to sleep with people I like, and not everyone sees consensual sex as a reason to hate someone. In fact, I think that’s a little screwed up – if both people were unattached and out for fun, no diseases or babies or trauma occurred, then hating someone because they saw you naked speaks to a really unhealthy attitude toward sex.
“I have sex with girls I like. Having sex with girls I don’t like would be silly.”
love that!! haha
At first I thought the LW was judgmental and insecure, but in further thinking about it I can understand why the LW is so upset. She put out there in the beginning what her hang-ups were and he lied. You can’t deny that he flat out lied to her. She may have gotten over that fact if he had confessed earlier, preferably before she moved across the country. Suddenly a year and a half into the relationship not only does she find out he secretly slept with his roommate’s ex but that the girl is part of the inner circle and her friend. To add insult to injury her boyfriend is suggesting they all live together. It is one thing for your boyfriend to still be friends with a former sexual but then to suggest living with them without full disclosure. Okay the LW actually talks this out with him and she is trying to get over it. Then wham another fact comes out that he slept with the sister previously. I can understand why the LW is reeling. The hits just keep on coming. I think she is justified in feeling the way she does and I think the boyfriend’s character can legitimately be suspected.
I dated a guy who was still friends with an ex or two and a couple other girls he had slept with, and as strange as it may sound, I was glad he had slept with them. The way I saw it was that before I came into his life he had his opportunity to be with them and they explored that possibility, but obviously not much came of it because they ended up remaining friends. I think it would have bothered me a bit more if he hadn’t because then I would be wondering if my ex and his friends were wondering about what could be and not what was.
Granted, he didn’t act inappropriately with these exes and friends, they never flirted and the girls always respected our relationship. Maybe if their behavior (my ex or the girls) was different I would be singing a different tune.
lexie.b
I love this response about ex’s, or FWB’s or whatever in general. So healthy and refreshing.
I don’t like the fact that the LW used the word ‘chick’. So this girl, who is quite nice and you like so much that you invited to have dinner with your mother is suddenly a ‘chick’ for having slept with your bf? I hate double standards, and I am of the opinion that you have to treat people the same way they treat you. This girl was nice to you. It would be mature of you to reciprocate it.
Also, although I read a lot of comments (not all, I was busy 🙂 ), I didn’t see it mentioned that apparently the sisters don’t have a problem with the guy for having slept with both of them. Unless the sisters hate each other and are not on speaking terms, the second one must have known that he slept with her (older, if I got it right) sister, and she slept with him anyway. And she managed to form a close relationship with him afterwords. That’s a sign of maturity on both their parts (the respective sister and the bf.)
LW, you either need to let it go completely, or MOA. You can’t hold your bf hostage to a situation that happened way before you were in the picture, that he regrets and moved on from, and that was not intended to hurt you in any way. If you can’t live with it, that’s fine. But you shouldn’t impose your view on how other people should live their lives. The plethora of responses should show you that we, people, are so very different. You should either accept us as we are (let it go), or find other people (MOA). Only you know which option will make you the happiest, so good luck!
Look, LW, I hate to harp on you as well, but here’s the thing: your standards are not necessarily at fault here, but the way you’re handling it is. If it were me and a man told me that he couldn’t handle my having slept with a friend, I’d have left him in the dust. When you draw lines in the sand about people’s pasts, no matter how much they’ve grown or changed, you set yourself up for being lied to or for cutting a lot of really great people out of your life. Not everyone is set up in utero with a great set of values, and some of us have to find our way. And I don’t know that it’s even right to be properly ashamed of those things. I learned a lot, I had a lot of fun, and I figured out who I really was in my slightly slutty early 20s. I’m not that girl anymore, but that shaped who I am now. It may have shaped your boyfriend. I don’t know what to think about him lying to you, other than he has lower standards than me for being willing to deal with a woman who would judge him for a past he can’t change, nor should he, if you like who he is today.
Again with the banning of friends, as well. Not. Okay. Never. Okay. You are trying to control his life. You are trying to control his past. He can’t un-bang her. If you’re not worried about him cheating, then why make him cut her off? It is not okay to punish him.
Be careful of your language as well. “Disgusting” comes off so harsh and puritanical, and if you love this man, that shows an awful lot of contempt and total lack of respect. He’s your boyfriend. He was your boyfriend before you knew this information. Showing him this level of contempt is unfair, overly dramatic, and again points to some major control issues. A relationship is not a deposition, and I’m going to shamelessly steal from Dan Savage on this: when Bill Clinton was impeached for lying on the stand, Congress didn’t censure him for lying because they decided that the invasion of his privacy was so extreme that any reasonable person would and should lie. Of course he lied. Again, I question his judgment for not up and leaving the moment he saw that you would want to be the arbiter of what was and was not acceptable in his past, rather than use his current life as a measure of who he is, but whatever.
What to do now? Either forgive him for lying and realize his past had not a damn thing to do with you and let it the hell go for good, or leave him. And next time, if you want someone to be honest, don’t treat their past like an offense committed against you that you can punish them for. I understand having standards and bottom lines and boundaries – these are good things. But be aware that your black and white measure of who’s worthy of being in your life is going to deprive you of some truly great people.
Wow Painted Lady. Everything you wrote is perfect and is exactly what I was thinking. I just didn’t have the right words to express it. You did. Great post!
Thanks ktfran! I should amend, though: I’m not the same girl anymore mostly by circumstance. If painted_dude weren’t in the picture, I would probably still be a bit of a libertine. Monogamy is more or less my first choice, but only if it’s…ah, worth my while. Painted_dude? Totally worth my while. And then some.
Just another thought… The BF may have lied because he didn’t want to drag his close female friend into this.. Just thinking…
I have been visiting this website for a while and have only been reading and not commenting since now. So this is my first comment.
LW, Yes he did something in the past and yes he lied about it. But than, we all have lied at some point in our lives. We are you human beings. Sometimes human beings lie or twist the truth because we are afraid of what the other person’s reaction will be or when we want to avoid unnecessary conflict. I’m not saying its right…but as human beings we sometimes do things that we later regret. We have all been there. So if you have to judge him for that, look at yourself first. I’m sure if you really look, you’ve done things in your past you weren’t too proud of either.
I think you need to put yourself in his shoes for a moment
Your boyfriend probably felt like he was put on the spot at that moment when you told him that you don’t want to date anyone with a crazy past and you wouldn’t be okay with him hanging out with people he slept with in the past. So you basically said “tell me what I want to hear or we are through.” And so he told you what you wanted to hear at that moment because he really liked you and wanted you to give him a chance. I’m guessing he was also young and didn’t think about the consequences too much about his choice to not disclose.
It seems to me like you wanted him to lie to you. Asking someone to disclose your entire sexual history when you first start dating is really unfair. And if I started dating someone who asked me that point blank, I wouldn’t even lie. I would break up with that person for forcing me to disclose something that is really none of their business–at least not in the beginning. To me that reeks of an incredibly controlling personality.
So your boyfriend lied and as a result you ended up getting to know him and falling in love. And you ended up in what sounds like, a very satisfying relationship with a faithful guy. And it sounds like you guys were pretty solid up until the point when you got this information.
I know I get a lot of heat for this, but think you need look at this a different way. Because of your boyfriends lie, you ended up in a great relationship. If he would have disclosed in the beginning and you didn’t let it go and stopped seeming him because of it, it actually would have cost you a great relationship. Try to have an open mind about this. Be grateful for what you had this whole time and don’t let this one piece of information ruin what you have always known all along.
Yowzer, this LW is all over the place. Now all of the sudden they weren’t friends with this girl, and she was a jerk, even though her bf wanted to move in with this girl, and her bf. Turns out it was just a drunken mistake, and since the LW says herself that they weren’t friends it should no longer be a big deal since he actually didn’t lie. Truth be told it sounds like there is a lot of lying going on between the two of you (and to us), and you should both move on and grow up.
I wish I could like this twice.
At least he didn’t sleep with both of them at the same time.
One other thing:
As someone with control freak tendencies, I can totally call you on this bullshit because I used to do something similar. Putting such strict lines on your life is not going to prevent you from getting hurt. Not at all. In fact, then you’re panicky trying to control everything in your life PLUS you get hurt anyway and then you feel like a failure.
I say this with love: cut that shit out.
Alright. So, obviously everyone has a right to expect certain standards of behavior (ie, I wouldn’t date anyone who had committed rape or murder, regardless of how much he has changed since then) or shared values in a significant other. That’s reasonable. LW, I know this isn’t what you’re saying, but you would be perfectly within your rights to only want to date virgins (or people who have had 100 sexual partners for that matter).
My issue is how you’ve handled these expectations. Instead of calmly stating what you’re comfortable with (which could have spawned a constructive conversation about how well your bf did or didn’t fit, which could have then led to your evaluating what you’re willing to live with), it sounds like you might have approached it in a judging manner right off the bat. You could have said something along the lines of “I know a lot of couples don’t talk specifics about their sexual pasts, but I need to know more about where you’re coming from before I move further.” Instead it sounds like you sort of laid out the standard he was expected to meet, and gave him the choice of either failing to pass muster (effectively giving up any chance he might have had with you) or lying in order to feel like he had a shot. Neither of those options are good. Yes, he should have had the courage to own who he is, but he’s not the first person to try to mold himself into someone else for a significant other. (In fact, in this case the part he’s “molding” has more to do with the past than it might have to do with the present.)
The point of dating is to discover enough about someone to figure out if he or she is someone you want to end up with. It isn’t about saying “this is what I want- either conform or not” so you don’t have to risk getting hurt. It seems like you feel that because you laid out your expectations from the beginning, everything that happened since then was your boyfriend’s fault. It doesn’t work that way. You don’t “deserve” a perfect boyfriend. You’re just learning what you need so that eventually, when you find someone who is “perfect” for you, you’ll be able to 1) recognize him and 2) be an equally valuable partner in that relationship.
The other thing that isn’t helping the situation is that you seem to be seeing everything in black-and-white. Your boyfriend is either expected to live up to your expectations, or he’s disgusting. The girl is either someone you’ve become friendly with, or she’s manipulative. People aren’t black-and-white, and neither are their actions. Regardless of whether or not this is something you can/want to/should move past, most people and actions aren’t measured in absolutes, and adults learn to see all sides.
Finally, regardless of whether the girl involved should be in your boyfriend’s life or not, that’s his call. Maybe he is happy not to have her in his life, but he’s a grownup- he should be able to make that call. That doesn’t make your demand ok.
Basically, I think you are in a place where you can learn a lot about relationships, what you need and how you can conduct yourself so that you can eventually have the relationship you need. Maybe that is with your boyfriend, and maybe not- but the decision, and what you’re learning from all this, is about you- not your boyfriend.
LW, i was in your situation once, or a similiar situation, i should say. my boyfriend and I had been dating for a litte while, maybe a 6 months, and then it came out that the number of people he had slept with he lied to me about, and it was because the 2 he lied about were a one night stand he had when we went back home for christmas vacation, at a new years party, partially because he was still so broken up over his girlfriend breaking up with him earlier that year. then, the second was that he had been sleeping with his best girl friend, who was also my friend, and that FWB had lasted for some time.
i was so mad. i was so hurt. he told me when we were in the car going somewhere, and i had to just sit in the car because i was crying so much. it was so devestating to me. I also have standards (who doesn’t?), and i also want my partners to be people with good (in my opinion) sexual morals. i have only ever slept with three people- and those 3 were the three serious relationships i have had in my life. i understand where you are coming from.
that is where the similarities between us end. i eventually was able to get over it, because i believed him when he said that the things he did he did because he wasn’t in a good place, and he was lashing out after his girlfriend had left him. all these things happened before we even started being interested in each other. we were casual friends when these things happened, but i didnt know about any of them. i definitely didnt forbid him to see his friend -thats a cruel and immature thing to do.
you cannot punish someone for their past, and for their past decisions. people make mistakes, they go astray of where they should be, but hopefully when you find them they are past those choices, they have learned and grown and changed. and even if you find them when they are still stumbling along, it doesn’t automatically mean they are bad people not worthy of your love.
i was able to forgive my boyfriend because i saw the differences. i saw the person that he was (i was lucky to be friends with him before) and I could see the person he was with me. i accepted that the things he did cannot be undone, and so i could either leave them in the past, where they belong, or could leave him for lying about something he knew that i wouldn’t be happy with in the first place. i chose to stay with him, to forgive him for lying to me, and to accept the mistakes he had made in times of hurt (and drunkeness, if i remember right). and you know what? he is the man that i will marry. i know i will. i dont know when, but someday we will stand there looking at each other, and despite the mistakes he made and the hurt it caused, i will promise my life to him because he, the man he is today, is worth that.
you need to decide if you can forgive him. you need to either forgive him, totally and completely forgive him, or you need to leave him. thats the end of it. those are your only two options. personally, i believe if something is an actual “dealbreaker” there should be no doubt in your mind.
also, this isn’t super relavant, but i was wondering where you are looking for potential partners… i mean, i am not judging anyone, but it seems to me that a person who would casually sleep with people, and would remain friends with them probably would also exhibit certain behaviors… in my mind, they would also drink on occastion, they would party, be a little wild, swear, ect… i guess is what im saying is that if you are looking for some incredibly upstanding gentleman, but all your friends drink and party and live like normal 20-somethings do, you are going to be very dissapointed….
but i still totally agree that you have unrealistic expectations, and you should probably not date anyone until you have worked through your issues of being “entitled” to a good guy.. thats not how the world works, sorry.
I always enjoy the hell out of your posts, katie. I think we come from different places but seem to arrive at similar conclusions, so you’re always an interesting read. I also wonder at the attitude she has at being “entitled” to a “good guy.” She’s not actually entitled to any guy, good or bad. None of us is guaranteed a good relationship, and if we don’t treat our partners with a modicum of respect, we don’t even deserve a good relationship. And I put “good guy” in quotes because her definition of a good guy is, to say the least, inflexible and without nuance. I know a lot of rather slutty guys who are wonderful people. They treat their partners with respect, no one ends up with hurt feelings if at all possible, and aside from sex, they are good and loyal friends. LW has a thing going on that I think is a distant relative to the slut-shaming that goes on at a rape trial. If a woman has a lot of sex, she can’t be trusted and she’s “bad.” This guy is still a good guy. Obviously your boyfriend is as well, and I love that you had the wisdom to see it. A couple of poorly thought-out decisions should never negate the overwhelming majority of good, kind, genuine ones.
aw, thanks, painted_lady!! you made my day. and i do agree- we seem to be on the same wavelength, pretty much all the time! haha.. and i am always happy to see your name on here as well.
and it is true- there are people who are by many people’s standards “slutty” or whatever, but that really doesnt mean that they are bad people. they are bad people if they treat others without respect, and intentionally do harm, and have evil in their hearts. AND, even those people who are nice and respectful to others will commit some errors and hurt others, and that is just life. all is fair in love and war, right?
this girl has some learning to do about life in general, i think…
No, no, no, no.
I can’t agree with anyone who says she needs a reality check or tries to justify his behaviour. How many sexual partners he’s had and his views on casual sex are one thing, but when she asked about specific situation(s) POINT BLANK he LIED TO HER. She has absolutely every right to feel cheated and hurt. She asked him directly, and he chose to lie to her to save his own ass and appear to be something he wasnt because he wanted her, and he knew owning up to his actions would drive her away-simple as that. It’s sad, really. He had sex with this girl as soon as a friend of his was out of the picture, had her sister as well, and then lied to get another girl…There is no way in hell that he conveniently forgot or moved on from having slept with these women. Sure, maybe he matured past what he did and was ready to move on from it, he may even regret it. But he wasnt mature enough to give her the truth about what he did-she completely deserved the truth. The three of them deliberately kept the truth from her and carried on a charade-that is NOT moving on and being mature about it, that is having your cake and eating it too. SELFISH.
I am not saying she should leave him. Only she can decide that. Her heart is in it now and that complicates things (funny though, how he tried to turn it onto her, saying she pretended to be more liberal than she was. If that was the case, why didnt he just tell her the truth, if she was being so liberal? hmm). Wendy is right in saying “Loving him won’t change his past. Hating him won’t make him more apologetic or more committed to being your idea of perfect.” 100% accurate. Maybe if she moves on with this and stays with him, she can learn to be more accepting…this isnt a woman who has unnaturally high standards, this is someone who was lied to and lived as part of a charade for years, the only one not in on the truth. It makes me wonder how many other people knew the truth, and nobody ever spoke up. I can’t imagine it was only between the 3 of them, people usually tell somebody. I wouldnt be surprised if she felt put-on-show in a way, being the only one who didnt know.
How terrible and sad-it shows exactly the lengths people will go to just to get what they want. And now she’s the one with the broken heart, and lost a friend.
im sorry, but anyone who says “this boyfriend was supposed to be special and not a liar” really, really needs a reality check- because that is just not the way life works.
I’m not sure if you can really call what he did a “lie” — at least not in a B&W sense.
She writes in her letter, “his initial reaction to my freaking out about all this was to claim that I had lied about being more liberal than I really am.”
That makes me think that he had no idea she would think it was “crazy” that he happened to hook up with 2 women who came from the same womb & who happened to have hooked up with other people he knows.
Seems like there is a lot of miscommunication, but I think it will be best for the LW to just MOA instead of staying with someone who she is “hating,” thinks is “disgusting,” & for whom she has lost any trust or admiration.
After reading all the comments from you, Conflicted in Love/Hate, I’m starting to think that you are the real liar here. It may sound harsh but so far we have been told that this girl was a friend to both you and the bf. You hosted her bday parties, had dinner with your mother together and even considered living together.
Next thing you know the “chick” is a jerk who “pursued him to get back at her ex and I was never close with this girl.” Huh? now you and this girl were never friends and she was a bad person? Also how could she make her ex jealous if he had “no idea” that your bf and the kinda-sorta-friend never told him they were together.
In your letter you say your bf slept with this girl as soon as she and the roommate broke up (the roommate had no idea). In your next comment you state “it wasn’t the day after, it was like a month after and his roommate was cheating on the girl and that’s why he broke up with.” and “Plus my bf was friends with the girl for months and was close with her, he described the situation as her being heartbroken and he was was also distraught over past relationships so they slept together while drunk.”
So this didn’t happen “as soon as they broke up” it happened a month later and she wasn’t trying to make her ex jealous she just drunkenly consoled her “distraught” feelings while your bf fixed his “broken heart” with booze and sex. Plus the roommate was a bad guy – a cheater- who didn’t deserve the girl anyway, so why would he care if hiss roommate slept with his ill treated ex weeks later???
You also go on to refute your own claim that he slept with the sisters back to back. Now you say there was a full on relationship between the familial hook ups.
It seems to me that you don’t really know the true story or wrote in what you wanted to believe and when you didn’t get the responses you expected you tried multiple times to change things until you heard what you wanted.
I thought you were a true LW in need. You deceived me. Now I need to go to therapy and see if I can get past this bump in our relationship. After that last LW sent an update where they changed all of the facts in their original letter I should have known not to trust you. But I thought you were the real and special LW. Guess I was wrong.
Sincerely,
why do i even bother anymore?
Wow, there are SO many comments on this letter now. From what I’ve read of the LW’s follow-up comments as well as others’ replies to them, it sounds like she is being defensive. I’m speculating that her situation is evolving as we’re all trying to give her advice, and she’s probably grilling her bf to the point where he’s lying even more. Like, “You actually WANT to stop talking to her, right? Right?” And he’s all “Uh– yeah! I never really liked her, anyway! I just was friends with her because, you know, the whole group is.” I know this is my imagination, but I’m probablyy not too far off. I think they’re lying to both each other & themselves at this point.
Oh, LW.
I think we’re coming down hard on you because we’ve all been either you or your boyfriend. Everyone has been lied to, everyone has at least one thing (or year or years) in their past they’d like to chalk up to bad judgment and leave behind. It’s part of life.
I think you have three decisions to make:
1. Do you forgive the lie? You either forgive it or you don’t. There’s no halfway here. It sucks to realize someone you trusted lied to you, and you are justified to feel anger and betrayal. Be angry and own it. But then decide if you can forgive him.
2. Can you let his past be his past? How has he treated you in your relationship? You say you trust him completely not to cheat on you. Is he kind, considerate, respectful, attentive? Is he honest about everything but the lie? I know it’s jarring to find out that the man you love very much has a past you can’t be proud of. But can you be proud of the man he is now?
3. Do you stay with him? That’s up to you. Do you want to? If you can’t forgive him and if you can’t separate the man you love now from the man he was, let him go. It will be an act of love.
Also, relax a little, sweetie. Trust him to make good decisions and put you first and see what happens. You’ll learn a lot about how much he respects you and loves you by the decisions he’ll make regarding this woman who is still in his social circle. It’s unrealistic to forbid him to have contact with her. Please don’t dictate what he can and can’t do. That’s not very grown-up.
Oh, stop being so controlling. Your boyfriend’s past is the PAST! If you keep on like this you will end up alone because, 1. EVERYONE has a past! That is how we learn and grow, and 2. As you get older the available pool gets smaller, there will be more PASTS to contend with if you decide to MOA. So I would get over it quickly, etc. Sucks he lied, but it was a white lie in my opinion since he probably did not want to hurt your feelings. Start dating virgins if that is how you feel, but the virgins will be either 1. closeted gay men, or 2. really immature. Good luck!
Actually, LW, if I were your BF I would MOA YOU! That’s right! You seem WAAAAAAAY too high maintenance and neurotic for a real healthy long term relationship. Grow up!
Wow. I missed some crazy letters last month. This girl definitely needs to dump this guy — and STAT! Why? Because she is totally crazy, and he deserves better. End. Of. Story.
I too just read this letter. My friends also say I expect perfection in men. I unintentionally do this due to fear of commitment. Maybe, the LW is afraid of investing more time (afraid of marriage perhaps) and has been searching for flaws in her bf. She must have researched his past extensibly this year, for his “crazy life” too show up after 2 yrs of dating. I been seeing someone for 4 mos now (the longest for me). He once told me that he has cheated in the past. I do think about the “once a cheater, always a cheater” and wonder if he will do this if we get serious. I fight this thought. After all, he doesn’t judge my past “crazy life” and has told me that he only cares about us in the present.