“My Friend Attacked Me at a Wedding”
Not one to get confrontational, I joked off the first few comments. But she kept at it, and eventually I had had enough. I said, “what the hell?!” and asked why she was giving me all this shit. I think I took her by surprise. She looked shocked and said, “Shhh, not at the wedding.” That made me mad, and I told her she was being rude. She then became defensive and threw out more insults and then stormed off and I did not hear from her until the next day.
I had never had any bad blood with this girl before, but the truth is I never thought that much of her in the first place; she has a phony vibe about her and in small ways over the years has revealed hints of her judgmental self. For that reason I had already purposefully kept a little distance from Lacy, but we always got on just fine. What really made me sad was that Lacy cited things that only our mutual friend Sara knows, so it was clear that they must have been talking about me, and I felt betrayed. I stepped outside, started crying, and went home early.
The next day my sadness turned to anger. Lacy reached out by email with one of those, “Hey, I am sorry you are hurt, but I said nothing wrong” apologies. She insisted that she was just being a concerned friend and that I simply had a strong reaction to her “honesty.” That is when I lost it, and I ripped her a new one. I wrote her a long, colorful email explaining the difference between honesty and being an asshole and how she was a judgmental, rude, meddling idiot, and that even if all the things she had said were true, it was none of her damn business in the first place. I didn’t say “go fuck off” but that was the tone of the letter. What the hell, right?
Of course, as time passes (it’s been a few more days), Lacy’s comments seem less severe, and I’m embarrassed I let them get to me. I at least wish that I had ignored her email and given myself the time to just get over it quietly, on my own. I could have filed this away as a mental note to not trust Lacy. Instead, I dropped a bomb on Lacy, who is sad and feels ganged up on because Sara is not speaking to her now.
So what do I do now? Do I just go about life and pretend this shitty friend is dead to me, what’s done is done? Or do I apologize? Let me step back first and tell you what I want: I want no tension. This negative energy out there is bringing me down. But I also don’t want to rebuild a friendship with this idiot.
I have considered sucking it up and saying something along the lines of: “You were just being a good friend, sorry I couldn’t handle the criticism, I suck.” (I don’t believe that, but it’s just words, and if it will make her less sad and ease the tension, then why not? Nothing will change the fact that moving forward I will keep my distance). The truthful apology I want to make goes something like: “Sorry, I did not need to pull out the big guns on you; you will never get it anyway, and it’s not worth my time.” But of course that is not going to get us anywhere. What should I do? — Wedding Gate
Weddings should be — and usually are — wonderful celebrations, but as we have been witness to on DW many, many times, weddings can also bring out the very worst in people. They create stress and tension and draw out a host of insecurities ten thousand miles long (well, three at least). People worry that they can’t afford their dream weddings or can’t afford to give expensive gifts or can’t afford to be in the wedding party or can’t afford to travel to their friend’s wedding; they worry about running into exes; they feel insecure that they’re [blank] years old and nowhere near getting married themselves; they feel fat in their new dresses or angry that their hair doesn’t look as good as so-and-so; they wonder if people think they’re lame because they showed up without a date; they feel insecure that they don’t know anyone at the wedding besides the bride and/or groom; they feel awkward about dancing in front of people or sticking out by not dancing. Maybe Lacy was feeling one or more of these things. Maybe you were, too. Maybe it was a perfect storm of pent-up tension, insecurity, and sheer exhaustion from two weeks of slutting it up (kidding!) that resulted in overreaction on both your parts.
The truth is, Lacy was a bitch for tearing into you. Even if you two were close friends and it was her place to express concern over perceived crazy behavior, a wedding is certainly NOT the place for such a thing. That was strike #1 and #2 against her (butting her nose in where it didn’t belong, and doing it at such an inappropriate time). The non-apologetic apology was strike #3, and frankly, I don’t think you were wrong in responding to her the way you did. But it doesn’t matter what I think. What matters is that YOU feel bad.
But do you feel bad because you are genuinely sorry you hurt Lacy’s feelings? Or do you feel bad that you’ve pulled Sara into this? Or do you feel bad that now there’s going to be this weird tension with Lacy and any time you are in her company, like when you’re hanging out with mutual friends, you’re going to have to deal with it? Or do you feel bad because you feel betrayed by Sara? Or do you feel bad because there was a grain of truth in Lacy’s comments? Nail down what it is exactly you feel bad about and then proceed from there.
If you aren’t genuinely sorry you hurt Lacy’s feelings and you only regret that you let her get to you and now you have to deal with awkwardness between you, send her an email along the lines of: “It’s been a busy summer for me, packed with life experiences I don’t regret at all. But I do regret letting my fatigue and your comments get the best of me and behaving in a way that didn’t represent my best self or the regard I have for our friendship. I hope in hindsight you can appreciate why I may have felt defensive as I can appreciate that your comments, however misguided I think they were, came from a place of genuine concern. I also hope we can put this behind us and move on cordially.” Turn the non-apology back on her, you know? And stand your ground that you think she’s full of horse shit, but say it in a way that’s a little nicer this time while taking responsibility for your own regrettable behavior.
And then move on. Because, truly, these kinds of dramas just aren’t worth the headache. Lacy was never a real friend anyway. And Sara? She sounds suspect, too. You know now not to trust Lacy anymore, but I’d keep a watchful eye on Sara as well.
***************
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If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, you can send me your letters at wendy(AT)dearwendy.com.
Lacy isn’t worth your time. Any friend who does that at a WEDDING is just immature, petty, and looking for attention.
forget feeling bad about Lacy, if anything she should reach out to you and appologize….personally i wouldn’t give her any more of your time, people like that are not worth it….as for your other gossipy friend Sara, i probably would reconsider that friendship as well….i think you would be 1000x better off without people like this in your life (and i think you already handled the situation perfectly, so hold your head up high and don’t give these people another thought!)
WWS about standing your ground that you think is full of shit. I don’t think you should tell her, at all, that you couldn’t handle the criticism — ESPECIALLY not when you don’t even feel that’s true. But, for the sake of diminishing the awkwardness between you two if you going forward, I’d say something along the lines of what Wendy wrote above. (But I’ll be honest when I think what she wrote is a little too nice under the circumstances; I’d definitely exclude the part about her comments coming from a place of genuine concern. Haha.) Beyond that, I wouldn’t continue any sort of friendship with Lacy (and regarding Sara, I’d probably try to talk things out with her before deciding whether or not you think she’s a genuine person worth maintaining a friendship with). In the future, just be cordial to Lacy if/when you have to be around her.
Yeah, life’s too short to have questionable friends. If you can’t 100% trust them, especially if they’re established friends and not new friends, cut them off. I’d definitely cut off Lacy, and Sara too.
Seriously, I’ve done it. When someone asked me why I defriended them on facebook after a trust incident, I said straight up, “Listen, I don’t know who [did the thing that lost me trust in particular people], but I don’t have the energy to figure it out, so I’m erring on the side of not trusting people and keeping facebook locked down.” And I never spoke to her again. We’d be cordial if we ran into each other, but that’s it.
I had a friend say similar comments to me, not at a wedding but in texts during a week where my grad school was stressful, the family dog died, and my grandma broke both her wrists in a fall. It may have been better if these were out of proportion hookup talk as that’s less of a sensitive subject that my weight which was the focus. She told me that stress doesn’t have an effect on a person’s weight and that my boyfriend is going to leave me if I didn’t shape back up.
My boyfriend’s now my fiance and we haven’t talked since her non-apology email. Nor will I even though we have mutual friends. I know I censor myself a bit more when I think to around her roommate who is my good friend as I don’t want all my business getting back to her. Be sure to censor yourself around others.
Also, you shouldn’t have let her run you out of the wedding. You had control over making it through dinner and dessert in silence then mingling the rest of the time.
Wow, that weight comment is just so mean. I cant even imagine someone actually saying that!
It was almost comical once I wasn’t so upset. It started by her asking if I was okay based on a dream that she had that something bad happened to me. Then she started in on the weight. It’s pretty clear to anyone that she has eating issues herself, but no one says anything to her.
Ugh good for you getting rid of her. Nobody needs a friend who will drag you down like that.
It sounds like you just want to sweep everything under the rug for the sake of “making nice”, but I honestly think you handled everything pretty well by standing up for yourself? Like, if Lacy didn’t want to be ostracized… then she should’ve kept her mouth shut (or even just quit when she saw your negative response to her “criticism”)
And I dunno about the Sara thing— I mean, friends talk about each other, right? It doesn’t have to be that there’s malicious information spreading going on… just that she mentioned (some of) what you’ve been up to, & Lacy ran with it because maybe she never liked you? Just speculating.
P.s. “sheer exhaustion from two weeks of slutting it up (kidding!)” hahah, I hope LW gets a laugh out of this; I would
I agree that Sara may not be a bad friend. It could go either way, sure, but I wouldn’t write her off until you figured out what happened.
Yeah, it really depends on whether you told Sara this information in confidence ir not. If she had no idea it was supposed to be a secret, there’s not much blame you can put on her. Maybe in the future, when you confide certain things to get, be clear about whether it’s something you’d prefer she not talk to others about
I guess a person should be clear if it’s really important, but I think Sara would have to be a little dense if it didn’t occur to her that it might be a secret. I’d never go tell another friend something that someone told me about their romantic life.
Maybe she’s not as untrustworthy as someone who told a secret despite being told not to, but she’s clearly a gossip and is not super respectful of privacy.
If you don’t want a friendship with Lacy, no one says you have to. In fact, since you didn’t really like her to begin with, this sounds like serendipity to me. Don’t say anything that’s not true. if you really, truly do not want to apologize to her, then don’t. If your “truthful apology”” reflects how you really feel, go ahead and say it. Lacy probably won’t understand it, anyway. Personally, I wouldn’t let Sara off the hook, either. Lacy had to get her (mis)information from somewhere. I disagree that you “pulled Sara” into it. She pulled herself into it when she shared information that she clearly should not have. I would re-evaluate whether to share such things with her in the future. If Lacy is feeling ganged up on, it’s because of her own actions and you don’t need to waste any time feeling sorry for her.
I think it’s pretty comical you wrote a “long, colorful email explaining the difference between honesty and being an asshole”…isn’t that an asshole move? Why “rip her a new one” when you could have taken the high road and tactfully and honestly explained that she was being “judgmental, rude, meddling idiot”?
Sounded like in hindsight, she realized she shouldn’t have sent the e-mail, but honestly, I can’t really blame her for losing it on this girl.
Yeah. But she still wants to send another e-mail – her “truthful” e-mail – basically calling her out again. I honestly don’t see the point in doing so. Unless it makes her feel good to really drive home the point. But I would say that is just as mean. I like Wendy’s reply though.
Totally agree. Everyone snaps at some point, so I don’t blame her for it, but really no point in doing it again.
Yeah. That’s where I’m coming from. The first time, ok. But don’t keep it going. That’s just too much negativity. Which attracts more negativity.
Three thoughts
1- Maybe this chick was just having a moment where she “lost it” and that’s why she said all that mean stuff.
2- I think everyone should take a step back before sending correspondence when mad. It’s often regretted. (I myself didn’t do this on DW and that’s why I took the week off. It was not my proudest moment.)
3- Just because someone is rude to you, I don’t think that gives a person license to be rude back.
I don’t disagree with any of that, just saying that its all in hindsight. Any time, ANY TIME I’ve “lost it” I’ve regretted it, regardless of whether it felt worth it at the time, I was right in what I said or was totally off the mark.
Yeah, I get it. I guess I just sort of feel this is a “pot calling the kettle black” kind of situation. Regardless I think LW should just leave it be and not engage anymore.
Is it pot/kettle? If someone is a total asshole to me, and I snap and only defend myself while snapping, its still only defending yourself. Its not attacking the other person’s character like they did to you. Not maturely, but still.
I guess it depends on what the actual e-mail said. I would assume “colorful language” and “ripping her a new one” would include personal attacks. But I could be wrong, we don’t really know the content of her e-mail. Well of any of the e-mails.
That’s true. I’m an eye for an eye person though, haha.
Yeah, I’m not at all. (And I was really disappointed in myself when I started acting like that.)
I wish I had the self control to not be like that!
It usually results in a lot of venting when I’m not dealing with that person anymore (so GGuy gets an earful). It might not be the most productive way to live, but I HATE confrontation in any form. I was stressed out for days after the DW blow ups.
Well, some people need to be told the difference, or at least be made aware that people can see right through it. Might make them think twice about trying that again. And the LW knows that she should have taken the high road but reacted in heat to repeated provocation. But LW, I wouldn’t say things you don’t mean for the sake of smoothing over. Words are never just words – they are vehicles of our emotions and intent. So leave it. You’ve said your piece. Chalk it up to experience, as you’ll know what to do next time.
If the LW had sent the email right after the wedding, I might agree with you, but for Lacy to pile on with the non-apology apology after she had clearly already been told she crossed a line and it was none of her business… and most of it wasn’t even true… well I don’t believe in tip-toeing around people who treat you like shit. Maybe it was the most functional way to stand up for herself, but she did it in response to repeated, over the line, passive aggressive behavior – and I say good for the LW!
*maybe it WASN’T the most functional way
long-story short, don’t apologize for calling people out on their rude inconsiderate shit.
WMMcGS
I don’t believe it is tip-toeing to either a- not reply or b- reply without using colorful language and “ripping her a new one”. Honestly sending the e-mail was a really immature move, IMO. Stooping o the same level as the “friend”.
“most of it wasn’t even true…”
Am I the only person who has had chaos muppet friends who will go out and do insane crazy drunken slutfest antics (yooo hoooooo me included!) who will then insist that never happened and be livid someone could say such a thing about them? Yes even while writing in to an inetnet advice columnist? Because see if you admit you were behaving like a Lindsay Lohan Fan Club President in your internet advice columnist email you can’t then go show it to all your friends to tsk tsk about what a bitchy bitchy super bitchy McBitcherson that other evil bitch is and how the whole internet agrees with you. Tsk Tsk.
The LW said that only one of the three things she was being accused of was true. I think you’re projecting your own experiences too much onto her.
Replying to provocation isn’t being an asshole, if you focus on the actions that provoked you. Even if you use colorful language.
Just because being polite to people who are rude to you may help you be in control of the direction of the conversation, doesn’t mean it is an obligation. The whole point of a social compact, wherein politeness applies, is that when someone else breaks it, you are not obligated by its terms to that person anymore, within reason.
Seems like this could have been a Shortcuts letter.
I do like Wendy’s email reply suggestion. LW, send that if you really even want to be bothered.
As wrong as Lacy was – and I believe she was 1,000% in the wrong – I’m not sure i would continue calling her out on her meanness or stupidity. I firmly believe in being the bigger person, because like you said, if you continue calling her out, like you want to in your truthful e-mail, you will always have this negative energy surrounding this person. If you write back something like Wendy suggested, well, I think that’s more adult. You will have said your piece and you can move on knowing you did so with a lot more class than your so-called friend. Also, you won’t have to give it another thought.
Also, as others have said, I would rethink this friendship with Sara.
Finally, I have a lot of strong personality friends. I’m not a strong personality. Sometimes, they say mean spirited things and I would stew in anger. Now, if something is said, I either have a witty comeback or let it roll off and realize when something negative is said, it’s usually because that person is insecure or angry or said about something and that comment really has nothing to do with me. It has helped me A LOT.
Lacy didn’t give you a true apology, screw her. Making out with the married guy, I’d have said something about too, I think it’s a shitty thing to do. BUT, I wouldn’t have done it at a freaking wedding. For the rest it sounds like she slut shamed you and surprise, you are conditioned to start thinking she was a bit right and I can’t even!
I wouldn’t say anything if I had a friend who was doing things like making out with married guys or otherwise doing things I find morally suspect. I have my standards, but my friends are grownups and they can do what they want. It may make me distance myself from them or end the friendship, but I wouldn’t tell them they needed to change their behavior.
I suppose if they were suddenly and un characteristically acting in self destructive ways – I might say something, but it would be more along the lines of “Is everything okay?” not “Hey that thing you did that does not involve me in the slightest was shitty”.
Yeh I’m with you. My friends could judge me for any X,Y, Z situation so I don’t judge their choices. And frankly I don’t think your friends belong in your sex life (unless you’re having a threesome!) so it’s none of their business. Like you, if they were being destructive I would say “are you OK”, but the LW and Lacy don’t seem to have that sort of relationship so it’s not like Lacy’s concern is genuine.
Exactly – if I had a friend making out with married dudes left and right it would make me question what kind of person she is, and if I want to be friends with a person like that.
But my friends are all grownups who objectively know the difference between right and wrong. Telling them that making out with someone who is married is wrong isnt going to be something they didn’t already know. And I’m not their mother, it isn’t my place to scold them. They as grownups get to make whatever choices they want and suffer the consequences for those choices without me trying to educate them on what’s right and wrong.
I wouldn’t say anything to a friend out of concern that I had heard 3rd hand. I mean if the LW was telling her story and in the course of conversation a good-friend wants to say that going for married guys is fucked up – that’s one thing – but to wait until midway through a wedding to launch about shit that you weren’t even privy to!?! NO
Oh for sure. If I said anything at all it would only be if I was very close to the girl and had witnessed her destructive behavior multiple times firsthand, and I wouldn’t corne her at a public event like a wedding. I wouldn’t say a darn thing to a friendly aquantince after hearing some gossip.
And I for sure would not say “hey making out with married dudes is shitty”. It is, but she knows and she can make decisions to do crappy things if she wants.
Yes! Its the 2nd and 3rd hand information that is the problem (well, not the only problem here). I don’t know why people take action based on petty gossip rather than witnessing the event or hearing it first hand.
What if they were coming to you and all your friends with OMG GUESS WHAT I DID LAST NIGHT CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS AND I DON’T KNOW HOW I FEEL AND WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?! emotional/psychosocial vampirism about it?
But she’s not. She told one friend.
It they opened the discussion and directly asked my opinion, I suppose I would tell them what I thought. If someone asks you to comment on their private life, then they’ve opened the door, otherwise it’s not your business.
The difference in the LW is that this Lacy character launched into this unsolicited.
Okay you know what, thinking back on past friendships where I had a friend doing something like you describe -wah wah wahing about their own poor life choices – I did not take it as an invite to detail their every fault. At most I’d say something like “dude pull it together.” Usually though, I’d stop letting myself get dragged into their drama or cut them out if they kept trying to use me as their therapist.
In my opinion though it doesn’t sound like the LW was blabbing her drama to everyone (and if she’s being honest doesn’t actually have as much drama as Lacy seems to think she does), she shared something with one friend privately who then gossiped that around to others.
I think we can all admit to making crappy decisions when we’re pissed. I’m sure if you could go back you would step away from the computer and take 5 before responding. But, you can’t, so I would send the email Wendy suggested to keep things cordial between you in social settings and then not go out of my way to be her friend. And Sara, I’d do the same. Be pleasant, but don’t try and be her best friend.
Lacy made her own bed and she can lie in it. I wouldn’t back track and apologize and I also would have a word with Sara as to why she was discussing your private life with Lacy. Lacy is a big girl and can clean up her own mess with Sara.
Sometimes people need to be called out and Lacy clearly needed it.
Often our friends match us and from the little I’ve learned about you and Lacy you both seem to like a little drama. You made out with a married man which is inviting drama into your life and she brought it up at a wedding which is bringing drama into the lives of those at the wedding. Maybe the two of you have a lot in common and if you want better friends you have to be a better person yourself.
That’s kind of judgey. Maybe the married man was in an open relationship? Or maybe he wasn’t. Either way they’re (presumably) two consenting adults.
Meh, I won’t say making out once with anyone is necessarily inviting drama into your life, but I have no issue with being judgey about people who hook up with married folk, or married folk who cheat.
I mean sure, I judge people who are committing acts of betrayal against their spouses. But we know nothing about them or their story and it seems kind of shitty to me to tell her she needs to be a better person knowing only that. Maybe if she pipes up and tells us that it was indeed, sordid and slimy then yes, judge away. I’ll judge with you.
Yea, reading the other comments, and now yours, I agree. I’d silently judge at most, haha 🙂 If my friend told me they did this, I’d just keep my mouth shut and prob fade out.
Yeah, I mean we have no idea if the LW even knew if he was married before or during the making out. It wouldn’t be the first married person who didn’t disclose they were married before making out with someone.
We all make judgments in our life about what we will and won’t do and will and won’t accept. There is nothing wrong with making judgments about what works in your life. I don’t personally like drama in my life and so I don’t have friends that make out with married men. There are people who seem to thrive on drama and they tend to have friends who also thrive on drama. They would judge me to be boring, which is totally fine with me, and I would judge them to be too much hassle. I’m just saying that we tend to find friends who match us.
If the man was in an open relationship then he’s fine but if she knew him and knew him enough to know that he was married she would probably also know if he was in an open relationship and she would have said so because it would give an entirely different tone to her behavior. It would take her from bad to fine.
I’m not trying to say she is a bad person but the perception of her behavior would go from bad to fine if she said he was in an open relationship. Whenever someone says that they made out with a married man there will be some criticism and she defended herself against the other two criticisms as false but acknowledged that one as true.
right as if she would have drama blabbed to Sara about it if he was in an open relationship Lawlz
My first reaction was good for you for telling her off. I get the post-telling her off guilt though. WWS from there =)
Classy.
I don’t think you owe Lacey any kind of explanation. If it will make you feel better go ahead and send a follow up “sorry for being so mean” email but only do it if it will make you feel better. It sounds like you didn’t like her very much to begin with and her friendship isn’t something you’ll be missing. Let her concern troll her other “friends.” If you do run into each other down the road keep it civil and don’t get drawn into trying to explain yourself or let her try to explain herself. (Unless her explanation was, “Sorry I was out of line.”) You were just being honest, amirite?
Eh, I would fade out on Lacy and Sara. Lacy is obviously an idiot and Sara can’t be trusted. Why keep people like this in your life?
What an odd situation. And this happened to a friend of mine, too! Only her “friend” attacking her out of concern at a wedding came from a religious place and there wasn’t a married man in the mix. Is this like, a Thing? Do people actually do this? So weird.
Personally I would just let it go. You don’t have to go through some big apology to remain cordial in social situations. Dragging this out any longer, even just to make yourself feel better, just seems counterproductive.
It’s the uncomfy wedding shoes.
MY first instinct is that Lacy is friends with the wife of the guy you made out with at a bar. That would explain a lot of her behavior.
Regardless, everything is in the past now. I think you’ve burned this bridge thoroughly into ashes and it’s probably best to just move on without speaking to each other. Please be kind to her, though, if you end up seeing each other face-to-face.
You need better friends, clearly. But then women are socialized to cling to total cunts for some reason. (Misplaced loyalty is my best guess.) I really do have to laugh though that some here are taking YOU to task for that email… My own response would have been so epic that catty twat would have fucking killed herself. To act like in such a way during a wedding no less is truly beyond the pale…
Why you want anything to do with these two is beyond me. Cut your losses…
+100 for the use of “catty twat”
I couldn’t agree more, BGM! Whatever happened to, “You teach people how to treat you.” In this case, she didn’t accept a non-apology and showed the other girl that she can’t be walked all over, and that is awesome. If anything, the socialization of women has said, “Don’t offend anyone! Always be lady-like and take the higher road!” That’s bullshit. If her friend sucks, tell her she sucks and be done with her. She shouldn’t feel guilty about it, and if the LW keep this idiot in her life, she should know she deserves whatever drama comes after.
oh yes- absolutely. the gut reaction to fix, to apologize, ect- i picked up on that “lady like” socialization too.
There is a difference between not engaging in drama (as in not sending stupid emails) and fixing apologizing etc (which is IMHO another form of continuing drama).
I wouldn’t backpedal just because Lacy’s sad now. She should feel bad – maybe it’s teaching her a lesson.
Also, you don’t like Lacy – never really liked her actually. You don’t want to be friends, so there’s nothing to salvage here. Just drop it.
Do you still want to be friends with Sara? I wouldn’t trust her after this. But since she has chosen to side with you, maybe ask her what was up with Lacy having all this information about you.
You don’t necessarily need to apologize to Lacey, or pretend she is dead to you. Sending an apology email could just draw this out even further. I wouldn’t say anything more about the topic. Just be polite if you happen to run into her. Also, her sadness about Sara not speaking to her is *her* problem to deal with, not yours. I wouldn’t confront Sara, but I would fade out on her or at least dial the friendship down to a level where I don’t talk about such personal stuff anymore.
Yeah, WWS. To me it’s all in the title. “My friend attacked me at a wedding.” Um, that’s not a friend! And the other one sounds like a drama queen too. This sounds like shit that happens in high school and you are better off without either of them.
Ignore your impulses for smoothing things over for the sake of someone else, here Sara or Lacey. You are not responsible for how they feel or their acts. You are responsible for your behavior, so if you do think you could have behaved better, then find techniques to calm yourself before you go off, or apologize just for your tone. If you want things to be easy for you, find new friends who want things to be easy to you.
LW, I briefly looked through the responses and there is one question that wasn’t addressed. Why did she say it? What was her goal when she brought this stuff up? So, not the same situation at all but my sister in law had a hard time after her divorce. She was drinking a lot and seemed to be sleeping around like crazy. She had stories about new guys all the time and it made the family uncomfortable. The final straw was we were out as a family on vacation and she was straddling a guy at a bar making out… in front of her parents, brother, and I. When we confronted her, it was out of love. She got very mad and said that we didn’t know anything. She said she wasn’t sleeping with people just making out and she was getting back out there. We were worried because we thought if she was doing this stuff around us, then it must be much worse when we weren’t around. We made some logic jumps and she was very angry that we didn’t trust her. I don’t know what was true or not but we approached her out of concern, not to shame her.
I am just wondering if there was a greater concern she was trying to get across, or was this a plain shaming? Has your behavior changed recently that your friend might be concerned or was she just being mean? Was this concern or her just trying to feel superior?
I tend to agree with your comment except for where Lacy decided to confront her friend. A wedding is not the place to do anything like this. It also sounded like it was more than just concern as she called the LW pathetic. Where did Lacy get the supposedly untrue accusations? Of course they were from Sara, but how did Sara know about them if not from the LW? Either the LW is lying or her friend Sara is no friend. I also have to comment on what she was being accused of vs. what she actually did. Sleeping with an ex-BF and trying to pick up a guy at a bar isn’t so bad and the LW has the right to do so if she chooses. Making out with a married man to me is not OK in any shape or form and obviously has the potential to hurt a lot more people than just the LW. I think because of that and the “colorful” email she sent that she’s just as much to blame in this whole mess as Lacy.
See, Lucy might be a self righteous prude. However, the thing about weddings is that you sometimes sit at the same table the whole night talking. So was this a comment that came up because of something that happened at the wedding or something the LW said? The “why” is really important. What is the intention of the comment. I always say that I only keep friends that wouldn’t intentionally hurt me. Many times you will unintentionally do something or say something but true friends won’t do that on purpose.
UGH!!! I absolutely have no time for people like Lacy and neither should you. Should you have torn into her via email? Eh, debatable, I guess…but in the end, I would NOT apologize to her.
Make a mental note for yourself to, in the future, not answer emails that flair you up emotionally for at least a day or two. Then pull yourself up by your bootstraps and kick this girl to the curb.
Last year, I had a epiphany about people like this who “give you honesty” you weren’t looking for because they feel shitty about themselves. They aren’t your friends and they haven’t done their own emotional work and they dump all over people. And frankly, your friend Sara seems like she can’t be trusted either. I would distance myself from both of them.
You say you don’t want any tension, and I can understand that. So, just don’t engage them or create tension at events where you will both be in attendance. Good boundaries is what this situation calls for and Lacy doesn’t have ’em!
I’m sorry. I don’t get why people are saying what the LW did is right, at all. I don’t see how a knee-jerk reaction deriding someone of his or her wrongdoing helps in any situation ever. Does it make the LW, or anyone really, feel better for about a hot second? Certainly! But all the person who did wrong first sees is someone lashing out and then he or she feels justified. Now, if you were to wait a good day or so, write an e-mail like Wendy suggested, maybe, just maybe you can make someone see there were wrong and to think twice before being a total d-bag. And maybe, just maybe, you would get an apology you rightfully deserved.
WAPS said above that you teach people how to treat you. So, yes, this Lacy chick acted out first and the LW responded in kind. But does the LW really want to be treated the way Lacy treated her? I doubt it. So, why should she treat someone that way even if it’s deserved?
I honestly don’t understand at all where people are coming from in their responses. It also makes me really sad for the human race.
Finally, there is always a better way to word something and still call people out on their shit.
Yes, yes and yes. I totally agree with you. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Is it really this LW’s job to teach this other girl how to behave properly though? She was a bitch, and got called out for it. I feel like most of us said it could’ve been done calmer/better, like Wendy’s email example, but that no one could blame her for losing it.
I think its an equally good lesson for Lacy to learn that when you act like a bitch, you might be bitched at right back.
I completely agree. I’ve always been the bigger person and there are definitely people I regret NOT chewing out under the vague “bigger person” theory. I think a perfect lesson for Lacy to learn is that other people know how to be assholes too. So if you want to dish it you better be able to take it. I would like to live vicariously through this LW.
My thing is that she wasn’t exactly stooping to Lacy’s level, though— Lacy was on some passive-aggressive nonsense, & she was calling her out. Maybe it was too “colorful” or whatever, & now she feels embarrassed about it, but I do think some people need to be called out on their shit. She was responding very specifically to the “sorry, but just being honest!” apology (er, “apology”) by correcting Lacy— “honest” does not need to equal “asshole”.
Also, none of us know what she wrote. Cursing in an email doesn’t necessarily mean it was this crazy mean diatribe— I’m frankly surprised people are chiding her over it. All she says is that it was “colorful” (so, she says “fuck” a couple times, who cares?) & it had a “fuck off tone” (meaning she didn’t even say “fuck off” in a self-described “colorful” email. It just doesn’t sound that horrible to me, not horrible enough to be sad for the human race. But that’s just my take, obviously.)
She does say “I ripped her a new one” which I think is pretty good indication of the tone.
Well, I guess my interpretation is that she’s likely taking a harsh reading of her own words now that she’s feeling guilty over it (in other words, did she ~really~ “rip her a new one”?) And besides, what’s the point of us taking her to task over an email that’s already written, that she’s feeling the need to apologize for now? When most don’t even think an apology is warranted?
I guess because I think applauding this sort of behavior, or at least not even mentioning that it’s a shitty reaction, is in my eyes encouraging this kind of behavior. I mean I would never want myself to act like that, or my sister or best friend…it’s just as shitty of behavior as this Lacy chicks rant. And not saying it’s shitty behavior is basically saying it’s okay.
To each their own though.
It is not as shitty, imo. Going off on someone who just happens to be sitting next to you is MUCH shittier than defending yourself while being nasty.
WFS and WLBHS. Can you imagine sitting at a wedding and some “friend” starts to lay into you like this Lacy did? Frankly, I don’t understand why the LW didn’t say “stop talking to me, you crazy cunt” as this happened. Sure, her email response to Lacy may or may not have been too harsh, but Lacy desperately needs a wake up call. You cannot treat people the way that she did and expect anyone to like you or be friends with you. How an adult didn’t learn this lesson as a child is beyond my understanding.
This makes me wonder how ktfran and gg would handle this. What would you two say/do if this happened to you at a wedding?
Either walked away or if that wasn’t possible (like dinner was actively happening and I needed to stay seated) diverted the conversation to something else. Or said we could discuss it later or said “thanks for your concern, I’ll consider you points” and changed the subject. Which I think is basically what the LW did in that moment.
As far as the e-mail, I would have walked away and talked my response out with GGuy or my mom before replying.
But like you said, you didn’t do that here the other week. You reacted without thinking first. Happens to everyone (and me far too often!), which I think is what most are saying on here. They aren’t really applauding her, just saying we’ve all been there.
Sure we’ve all been there, but I still think shitty behavior should be called out. I acted shitty and people called me out on it. I think LW acted shitty so I’ll call her out on it.
Since I’ve been commenting again, I take a second and really think about what I’m posting, rather than just gut reaction sling an insult or call someone a name. That’s not who I want to be, so I’m actively working on it.
haha, and Lacy acted shitty and someone called her on it…but you’re saying that’s not ok.
I try to do that too (re your 2nd para)
No, I think that she could have called her out on it without “ripping her a new one” and ton’s of colorful language. It’s one thing to say “you’re doing something shitty and you should rethink it” vs “You’re a dumb bitch”.
But “you’re a dumb bitch” is so much more soothing to the soul.
actually, i do applaud someone who is being treated like shit, even after trying to politely ask the people to stop, like this LW did at the wedding, to then lay into someone for them to really get the picture. this girl was not getting it, and was still going at it about “sorry for you not getting my honesty” the next day- thats ridiculous! if a colorful letter is what was needed to get that behavior to stop, so be it.
if this was an overreaction after the first thing the girl said at the wedding, yes, of course, thats too far- but it wasnt. this girl poked and prodded the whole time, even after the LW was more “polite” and tried to laugh it off, ect, into the next DAY, into another medium of communication. i think it was warranted.
Imagine she wrote in with the same letter, but said she never wrote the email or addressed the way this girl spoke to her? We’d be screaming to stick up for yourself and grow a pair!
Yeah, I never think “ripping a new one” or a letter full of colorful language is warranted. If the person is such an asshole that that’s your reaction, why waste your energy addressing it? Just cut them out of your life.
This is all exactly why I took a break from DW for a week, I was wasting my energy arguing things and with people for no reason other than to call them out…which is a stupid reason to me to get so worked up. If you don’t like someone just stop engaging.
This sort of reminds me of something Bear and I were discussing recently re: our attitudes towards politics. I’m pretty apathetic about politics, outside of my “pet issues” there isn’t really much I engage with to the point of feeling strong emotions about it. And Bear actively engages with topics and issues and people, gets all riled up and vitriolic about it, has very strong opinions and very strong feelings. To me, it’s like, Why bother? Politics are fucked up, getting angry is just a waste of energy, I’ve got more important (to me) things to worry about.
I think some people are just pacifistic in nature (you said yourself, you hate confrontation), and some people are more naturally aggressive. Some people, when someone barges over their fence, will just say “Ah that’s OK, I needed to repaint that fence anyway” and others are “What the FUCK, that was MY fence and you are really gonna pay for it now!” And these two types of people will rarely understand one another’s approach and reasoning. I don’t understand why Bear watches/reads conservative media, he doesn’t understand why I don’t vote.
I don’t think it’s really our job to encourage or discourage the LW’s behavior. She personally decided that she’d rather not react like that, which is fine, and I think our advice is more about where to go from there.
Also, I think that there’s a large gap between saying something is shitty and saying it’s OK. Honestly, I’d probably write an email like that and never look back. But aside from that, I think it’s very untrue that if you don’ call someone out and tell them their behavior is shitty that you’re saying it’s OK. I think that logic works for children, whom we as adults are expected to encourage or discourage, but not really for adults. Sometimes it just means that you don’t feel like it’s your place to tell someone their behavior is shitty.
“Teaching others how to treat you” typically doesn’t mean “treat others the way you’d like to be treated.” I have always used it and heard it used as an expression to mean that you do not let people disrespect you. When you take things lying down, you are teaching others that it is fine to disrespect you and your boundaries. When you don’t call other people out on their shitty attitudes, you teach them that those attitudes are acceptable. We all have some agency in the way we are treated, and although I wouldn’t say the LW was “right” per se, she wasn’t wrong, and I don’t think that women are assertive enough in general. I still think it’s awesome that she didn’t take a stupid “non-apology” lying down. That is seriously one of the most infuriating things, “Sorry, but not sorry!” And it’s not really necessary to feel “sad for the human race” that one person was shitty and someone else called her out on it. It sounds like it’s just going to make the world better if Lacy thinks twice before she voices her fake concern again.
I hate the “sorry, but not sorry!” emails. I had one of my closest friends do that to me after being extremely difficult to deal with on a one-to-one holiday, which culiminated in me eventually totally losing my rag. She tried to justify her shitty behaviour by blaming me for booking what she had asked me to book! I couldn’t respond, as I was just so outraged. I had intended to, but the time I gave myself to cool down also helped me realise that I didn’t want to re-establish our friendship. So I didn’t rip her a ‘new one’ – I just established my boundaries by removing myself from that behaviour.
You’re making the huge assumption here that one tone is more effective than another. This is a nice thought but so dependent on the circumstances and the personalities involved as to be categorically untrue. Some people respond better to anger than politeness, because anger is their cue they’ve crossed a line. For some others it’s the opposite. For some people, neither work because they are not in a mental state to accept any type of criticism.
Your tone is not a good indicator of whether or not someone will “get it.”
Also it strains logic that a reasonable tone will engage a reasonable response, when the person you’re engaging has shown you directly that they are willing to act unreasonably in other no less reasonable circumstances.
It seems from reading these comments that your response was pretty normal, and I’d likely have responded similarly. Though I’m better at catching myself before telling people where to go these days. As far as not responding being the high road, that’s true, but there’s a bit of base pleasure that can be derived out of not responding to someone. Cause you can guarantee they’re stewing in it, while you get to roll your eyes and move on.
Actually, one of the only times I linked to a DW piece (I don’t want my FB friends following me here… lol), I got in an internet fight with a third cousin! Thanks, Wendy! You started a family feud! 😉 I engaged with her a tiny bit before I stopped replying to her emails. She just wanted to tell me she hates what I think about ALL THE THINGS and that I am WRONG. She’s a bit younger, and not nearly as smart or mature as she thinks she is, so I realized it wasn’t going anywhere. I still felt a bit bad about it because I shouldn’t have engaged at all. I’m glad I stopped replying when I did, though.
It was this piece. Took me a minute to find it.
https://dearwendy.com/what-its-like-to-be-a-woman-in-america-in-2012/
I’m a firm believer in only apologizing if you’re actually sorry. Otherwise, you’re not really being fair to yourself OR the other person. This girls sounds like she had it coming. You didn’t kill her puppy, you just expressed how you felt, and I don’t think what you felt was unreasonable given what you’ve told us. And I LOVE the sample email Wendy wrote. No need to exacerbate the situation now that you’ve calmed down, but really, not everyone is meant to be friends and that’s ok.
I’d just let it go. I’m under the impression that you don’t want to be friends with Lacy (I mean, unless you are interested in being friends with someone that you’ve decided you can’t trust, which would be counterproductive, IMO). So, who cares if things get smoothed over or not? She sort of had it coming to her, and even though there are other ways you could have addressed it, that’s sort of what you risk happening if you are a bitch to someone.
So, if you feel that you’d rather be the type of person who doesn’t go off on somebody who insults you, then just file this away as a learning lesson. And I’d let Sara and Lacy handle their own shit. You reacted to what was said TO you, so whatever was said between them and whatever confidence Lacy broke is between them.
The “seemingly out of nowhere” thing intrigues me. I have a feeling it wasn’t so out of nowhere. And I have a feeling she didn’t “tear” into LW as much as tell her pointedly. I’m going to take the guess that LW has a fucking chaos muppet lifestyle and is constantly freaking her friends out with her never ending drama, and Lacy has had enough of this bullshit, and told her off. Again, “seemingly” out of nowhere… but I bet there was some sort of comment, something that set it all up.
And then LW went all drama queen instead of “thanks for your concern” (insert Nicole Kidman’s To Die For smile) and going to get cake. Fuck that noise. Just because someone is staging an intervention doesn’t mean you need to attend their unasked for performance.
Then LW is cranky Lacy writes a “non-apology” (I am fucking sick of this term; you may be a hot mess and deserved to get called out but I’m still sorry I hurt you and no I won’t apologize for telling you that you are in fact a hot mess. WTF? Why should I apologize just because you are butthurt over truth?) and now LW thinks wait maybe it wasn’t such a big deal maybe I should apologize.
NO LW. stop the fucking drama train. Seriously. Stop talking. Stop talking to everyone. About your sex life especially. This is a good way to avoid such messes in the future. Trust me on this. If you see Lacy in public nod and be civil. If she comes over wanting to talk ($500 says this never ever happens without your prompting) just assure her all is well and you understood she simply was looking out for you bless her heart. Smile sweetly (again, see above, Nicole Kidman’s smile, To Die For) and move on with your life. Keep your business on a need to know basis. It works much better for all and makes you look scads more mature.
Wait. Why would LW deserve to get called out for being a “hot mess”? Why would anyone if their choice isn’t affecting others?
Anyway, l like your last paragraph.
i could see it, if the LW is one of those hot messes that really prides themselves on it and goes on and on and on about their terrible choices and then the fallout and its never their fault, bla bla bla- if the LW is this girl, i can see someone else getting fed up and calling her out on it.
LW, if this is you- you need to really check yourself and re-think how you interact and frame your own life.
Well, haven’t you ever had a friend who was constantly calling everyone and dragging down every day and every party with her sob stories about her sad fucked up life? Like the poster above who talked about her SIL making out everywhere all the time and people were like “What the fuck”. It gets tiring to listen to someone being a constant hot mess all the time. Remember how bitchy we all got on that one poster who moved to follow her ex boyfriend (because like it was the only city anywhere she could move to wink wink nudge nudge) (and yes in the end she worked her shit out awesome, good for her!) see that’s the mess I’m talking about. You get tired of listening to “OMG MAH LIFE IS SUCH A MESS WHAT DOES IT MEEEEEEEEN????” I am shocked BGM did not pick up on this, but I can’t see him tolerating a minute of that kind of “omg dramaz come be my free shrink!” crap either LOL!
Funny you mention BGM because you sound like him, creating a whole sordid tale full of details based on not many actual facts. If your impression is true I would agree with your advice but I just don’t see the factual basis from the letter. I think that ripping into someone at a wedding regarding their personal lifestyle choices is way more dramatic and ridiculous than reacting to such an attack.
well hey you guys are the ones believing the letter at 100% face value. I’m not saying she IS lying. I’m simply presenting a perspective that as of the time I posted had not been explored. Maybe she’s a fucking mess and a drama queen who likes to pretend everything is fine in her world and the second someone calls her on it she goes into “WHAT THE HELL” desperate housewife mode. As if you know butter wouldn’t melt in her mouth. Maybe Lacy’s a fucking nut job (seriously how would she think LW slept with her ex two weeks ago how does this even come up if untrue? Hmmm? Sorry it reminds me too much of a former friend I had who was sleeping with everyone under the sun and when called on “oh hey you’re kind of causing lots of chaos” was all “OMG WE IZ JUST FRIEEEEENDZ!” right as if) but maybe LW is a hot mess looking to get some validation somewhere for her fake persona. Sorry but I’ve seen that and it needed to be mentioned as a possibility since, again, at the time I posted, everyone was all “oh LW your poor chaste darling innocent girl….”
Hmm. Well, I have a friend who had almost the same thing happen to her as the LW. She had a friend out of nowhere start calling her up and sending her emails about how emotionally unhealthy she is and how she is super self-absorbed and causes all her own problems and whines about them. And honestly, it WAS out of the blue. And at least from my opinion and that of a few of our mutual friends, it was very untrue (as in, the girl who bitched her out was the one who’d been spending all their conversations talking about her own drama). Then the crazy girl made out with my friend’s married BIL at her wedding and sent a letter threatening to take her to court because she hadn’t returned a set of DVDs.
My point is that it does happen. I think it’s a little unfair to assume that the LW is crazy and making stuff up. Considering all the crazy shit people do, it really doesn’t seem all that far-fetched to me that someone might decide to randomly be a bitch about stuff that’s not really a big deal.
I do agree that it’s best to keep things private, but considering the LW only told one friend about her personal life, I don’t think she was being all that careless. It’s not unreasonable to think that you can tell one close friend some personal details and have them not spread it around.
This is absolutely possible also. Lacy could be totally projecting. I didn’t want to crucify LW or anything, I was just saying if she IS one of those “omg ME?! Sweet innocent ME?! Why NO I wasn’t having sex with all those guys I was just you know pulling up my pants after I got out of bed with them!” types maybe she should check her shit and stop telling people what she’s doing with her pussy. That’s the easiest way to avoid ALL of this.
HEY YOU GUYZZZZ (sorry, LW): I’m in Wallace, Idaho, the prettiest, cutest, most adorable mountain town in all the land and my mom and I are tipsy!!!! I am never going back to Chicago. That’s all. Ok, now continue with all the good advice for this LW.
LMAO I just read that as “sorry, I’m LW” LOLOLOL!
I hope you enjoy tipsy time with mom, and mountains. And that you have great sex whisky and hiking in whichever order you prefer and none at all if you prefer that!
I would just let it go. This girl sounds like a drama factory, and any further engagement between you is just more raw material for her. So you snapped at her – she’ll get over it. Or she won’t. Do you really care, given how disrespectfully she treated you not once, but twice? If you run into her, just be cordial and distant, and if she starts up again with her shenanigans, this time just cut her dead. (Figuratively, obviously.)