“My FWB Totally Disrespected Me!”
On Saturday night he had a boys’ night out and we had said we’d hang out the next day. He rang me at about half past three Saturday night, drunk, telling me I was so awesome and special and he didn’t know girls like me existed because I was so cool (this is kind of par for the course when he’s drunk, so I take this with a grain of salt, but still, nice to hear.) He then asks me to come stay over, but I tell him that’s for boyfriends only.
Then he starts getting loads of text messages, and hangs up on me twice. When he rings back, I joke about him being so popular and he replies, “Yeah these two girls I’ve been hooking up with keep texting me.” To be honest, I was shocked, because we’d never spoken about other people and it seems odd to tell me now. Then his apartment buzzer goes off. At nearly four in the morning. So I ask him straight out if he’s asked another girl over and if she’s at the door, ready to have sex with him. He mumbles something about getting me to wait a sec, goes and opens the door, with me still on the phone, greets a girl and then hangs up on me.
Wendy, I don’t consider myself that possessive or needy, but this felt like a slap in the face — HE called ME. To ask me over and wax lyrical about how special I am, only to make me listen to the preview of him doing some other girl. It made me feel so cheap, and so disrespected and would never expect that from a FWB, and definitely not a good friend. He texted me the next day to apologize, and say he’s confused, but likes and respects me more than any other girl. But I’m still so hurt and feel awful. Do I even have a right to be mad, given that we weren’t exclusive? Do I give him a lecture about FWB courtesy and then try go back to what we had? Should I MOA? Can I trust him as a friend? And how the hell do I react when I see him in work?? — FWB Drama
FWB relationships can only work as long as both parties are on the same page. As soon as one person wants more — or much less — from the relationship than the other, things are doomed. The problem here isn’t so much that your FWB disrespected you; it’s that you developed feelings for him and wanted more from the relationship than he did. Think about it; if you weren’t interested in him romantically, you probably wouldn’t have even picked up his call at half past three in the morning. You’d already decided it was too late for you to go over to his place (or vice versa), so you probably picked up the phone because you wanted to hear his voice. Even after you realized he was drunk and he hung up on you (twice), you kept taking his calls. Why? Because you liked hearing him tell you how special and cool you are (even if he was drunk out of his mind).
The truth is, you may indeed be special and cool, but you probably aren’t special and cool in the way you want to be to him. You’re cool because you’re the kinda girl he can bang without, you know, commitment and responsibility. Plus, you’re fun to hang out with. You don’t put any pressure on him. That’s “cool” to a guy who’s out of a long-term relationship and looking for some NSA fun. And now that there’s been a little hiccup in your previously drama-free relationship, he’s probably starting to feel some pressure after all. That’s where that “confusion” he mentioned came in. He’s not so much confused about his feelings for you — they likely didn’t change just because he got drunk and pissed you off. He’s confused about whether your arrangement will continue being as hassle-free as it has been or whether he should get out now (and if so, how to end things without hurting you…).
Don’t let him be the one to call it quits. Have some self-respect and tell him that while it’s been fun, you’ve decided it’s better for your friendship and work relationship if you quit sleeping together. And then, if you need some space to get over him, give yourself some space. Avoid him at work for a little while. Don’t respond to his calls an texts. Hopefully, in a few weeks, you will have moved on and you can seamlessly transition back into being buddies again (I’d find a new “best friend” if I were you, though). The sooner you end your sexual relationship, the easier that will be.
This doesn’t have to be ugly. Just remember the “rules” you’ve followed for the last five months: you were both allowed to see other people; this was never an exclusive relationship; he never told you he wanted more than just an FB. The only thing he really did “wrong” here was drunk dialing you. And the only thing you did wrong was continuing to communicate with him when you realized he was smashed and you had no intention of seeing him that night anyway. You both messed up. Own it and move on.
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If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, you can send me your letters at wendy(AT)dearwendy.com.
If you never established a rule that you don’t want to hear anything about each other’s hookups, he really didn’t do anything wrong. You say you’re okay with him hooking up with other people, so what do you want to happen when he gets a text from one of those people and you ask who it is? Lie to you? I think if you straight up ask, its better that he be honest and let you know the kind of situation you guys are in rather than lying and leading you to believe you’re the only girl in his eyes. If you aren’t cool with hearing anything about it, its probably because you just aren’t cool with it, period. Let him know that this isn’t working for you anymore and you need a little space from him. If you see him at work, be cordial.
He did not do anything wrong. FWB rules are just that… it’s not a relationship and I personally don’t believe in FWB because it usually leads to this.. confusion, hurt feelings, hurt prides, and more confusion. Most of the time it gets messy. I’m with Wendy about calling it off and avoiding him for a little while.
If no rules were set then he had every right to hook up with other girls. And I mostly agree with Wendy’s take on why your so “cool” in his eyes.
ick, i wouldn’t want anything to do with someone so douchey! sounds like he was mad you weren’t coming over, so in a totally juvenile way he let you know that obviously you are easily replaceable! the guy is a pig straight up. LW hopefully at least you were safe when you had sex with this guy. i know you were only FWB, but what kind of jerk would make you listen to him greeting his other FWB over the phone, right before they have sex! i’ll tell you what kind of guy…an a$$h##e! yuck!
I don’t think what he did was necessarily malicious. He was drunk, he wanted sex, the LW declined, so he called the next girl on his list. This guy has a much different set of values from my own (and I certainly hope he is practicing safe sex), but that doesn’t make him evil.
He’s not maliciously evil, but dude is tacky as hell.
“It made me feel so cheap, and so disrespected and would never expect that from a FWB.” I am not sure why the LW is terribly surprised at this. Frankly, that is an obvious possibility if a FWB situation goes south. It might even be how her other FWB felt when she did the fade-out. It seems like the only real problem here is her expectations. And, by the way, Wendy, that was a *beautifully* worded explanation of the guy’s “confusion”!
“It made me feel so cheap, and so disrespected and would never expect that from a FWB”
Seriously? That’s *exactly* what I would expect from a FWB. That why they call them FWB’s, and not husbands or boyfriends.
lol thats what i was thinking when I read that!
I think a few of you are missing a point. Regardless of whether he’s sleeping with other women, or mentioning he’s seeing someone else, or even if he was drunk – purposefully making this girl hear the voice of his other FWB before fucking her is a rather low move. I wouldn’t want to associate with someone as childish as that.
You get what you pay for? You only signed up for FWB thing. You can’t expect him to NOT date/sleep with other people.
That’s why it’s not my thing–I just couldn’t do it. I’m not a casual person, and I forsee things like that getting messy quickly.
I agree, I am one of those either you are with me or you are not type. I tried FWB once and totally got my feelings all jacked up. I also tried casual dating once and same thing. I guess if FWB works for a person great. I just feel like, if you like me enough to sleep with me why can’t you like me enough to date me?
Exactly.
You had an FWB relationship that didn’t work out? I’m shocked. Let me humbly assert that the relationship crashed & burned because it was fundamentally baseless (i.e. wrong). I know your peers will run to your defense on this out of fear of hypocrisy, but since I am not one, I’ll give it to you straight:
The ONLY benefit you get from a friend is FRIENDSHIP. It is a rare, precious gift.
Your uncommited sex partners are not your friends, whatever you may think. They hang with you (and you with them) as a form of mutual exploitation. They have about the same level of concern for you as the hooker on the corner (an appropiate analogy).
Grow up. Stop doing what your friends do and drop them if necessary. Be an example your friends and family can be proud of. You’ll suddenly find that you are surrounded by people who value YOU (yes, even with your clothes on.)
I understand where you’re coming from, yet your response comes off a bit puritanical. Sometimes a person WANTS to be in an FWB situation. Is it an ideal situation? Not really. Ultimately, sex is better in a committed relationship with open communication between the parties involved. Yet when you just want the benefit of sex with a nice individual and you don’t have the time to establish a commitment and/or the financial means to get a hooker, nothing’s wrong with going into an FWB. If two individuals are available to hook up with one another, and they don’t have any committments towards another person that won’t be damaged, what’s wrong with a little bang on the side?
well, LW only wanted a FWB that she could pretend was a real relationship. She wasn’t dating/hooking up with anyone else, she said she didn’t want to. And she was super hurt when she found out he was. Soo… I dont think she qualifies as a person who really wants a FWB.
Wendy was spot on about the picking up the phone multiple times (even once!) at 3 am when she knew she didn’t want to hook up with him. I’ve been in a FWB, (one that I wanted) and i never picked up the phone if I wasn’t interested. I would like, text him back 3 days later, when I wanted to hook up.
I agree. Who WOULDN’T want to be in an FWB relationship? I’d also like a job that pays great but has no responsibilities, but guess what… they don’t exist. I’d love to have a bunch of kids that I don’t have to pay for too, and a big home without a mortgage. We could play this game forever.
If you are willing to accept FWB’s, than you must also accept SWP’s (sex with parents), SWS’s (sex with siblings), and SWF (sex with Fido)… or are is that too puritanical too? I’m sure there are people out there who want to be in those relationships too.
A FWB relationship is one that is entered mutually based on an existing friendship. There are times in your life that you want them and they have their place when needed. Some people grow out of a FWB situation and move onto something better, others just go into one FWB relationship after another.
Those other sexual relationships you mentioned are based on existing relationships, but not that of friends. The line of thinking you are espousing is similar to Former Senator Santorum’s line of thinking that if we accept homosexuality then we also have to accept bestiality and incest. Such logic is a philosophical fallacy of an illicit substitution of identicals and is full of shit. I expect better intelligent arguments from you, especially since you are on the Ask Men panel.
or Pat Robertson’s “sex with ducks” theory…
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/8fc68e372c/sex-with-ducks-by-garfunkel-and-oates
DJ- you can’t be serious about comparing FWB with incest & bestiality. You are clearly deranged! I was on the same page as you as far FWB situations are rarely true friendships, but you totally lost me with that one. Gross!
LW- I feel for you, but everyone’s right. Your expectations were unrealistic. It sucks, but it will be ok. I think you should take Wendy’s advice; I’m sure you’ll feel at least a little better about things after a little time & space. Best wishes!
I’m taking it to the extreme to point out the hypocrisy. The premise of the previous comment above mine was “A FWB relationship is one that is entered mutually based on an existing friendship.” So what if the existing friendship happens to also be a step-parent, half-brother, teacher, priest, etc.? Is it all good as long as everyone is nice and consensual?
How about this – You go bone a dog, and i’ll bone a guy that is single with no strings attached. Win-win.
“A FWB relationship is one that is entered mutually based on an existing friendship.”
I think the key word in that quote is “mutually”, meaning both people are consenting. Your examples of a step-parent, teacher, and priest seem to insinuate that their “friend” is a minor. Since minors can’t give consent, these would be examples of statutory rape NOT the type of FWB situation described above.
No! No minors involved. Two consenting adults. If you have to twist my argument into a sexual harrasmment case to make your point, your argument fails. I say they are ALL inappropriate relationships that cheapen and dishonor all people involved. Do you have the right to dishonor yourself? – Absolutely! BUT, I just tend to assume that someone who is writing for advice is seeking inner peace and resolution, and in this case, it is as simple as a tiny bit of behavior modification (i.e. Don’t F*CK your friends!!!) If you don’t respect yourself OR your “friends” that much, get used to being disrespected because that’s the signal you’re broadcasting.
So then how is a teacher having adult consensual sex with another adult who is consenting inappropriate? If you weren’t insinuating minor sex then i’m not sure what the point of your argument is. So in your point of view is there any sex that doesn’t involve two heterosexual adults that are married appropriate? Because if that’s what you’re implying…I didn’t know people like you still existed.
Right. By your rules, there is absolutely no problem with an adult student having consensual sex with his/her adult teacher. As a teacher especially, I have a BIG issue with that!
If you want to have a romantic relationship, start dating and fall in love. It’s free, easy, and currently the only thing that the government can’t figure out how to tax. If you are just horny, go google some porn, but for God’s sake, keep your friends out of it! The very thought of having sex with one of my friends is sickening. That’s a serious social disorder.
As for monogomous marital sex… yeah, it’s hands down the best in the world… and not because it comes without all of this baggage, but because it comes with all the love and respect and reassurance that we all crave as humans.
EDITED
And with THAT “lamest of the lame” replies, I declare a moral victory.
Good night America!!
I’m here till Thoisday… try the veal!
🙂
David,
The relationships that you use in your example are not appropriate analogies. One would make the presumption that in a friendship, both friends are on an even playing field. In the relationships you describe, there is a notable imbalance of power that makes true consent impossible. You seem smart, also dramatic, extreme, puritanical and just plain gross, so I’m surprised you didn’t make that distinction yourself.
I second everything you said minus the part about him being smart.
“If you are willing to accept FWB’s, than you must also accept SWP’s (sex with parents), SWS’s (sex with siblings), and SWF (sex with Fido)… or are is that too puritanical too? I’”.
I’m sorry but anyone who declares casual sex and incest to be one in the same, loses all credibility in my eyes.
Wow, maybe I’m the only one that agrees with David Jay in that there is really no “friendship” to friends with benefits! You guys must be lucky to have already been friends with your fwbs from the get go but for me, and past Fwbs that I have been with, it’s usually attraction first (lust first!) not friendship!
As long as you’re equating a woman looking for casual sex to a hooker I have no interest in hearing what you have to say.
No, I’m not doing that at all. Hookers are (a)smart enough to charge money for their services and (b) smart enough not to equate what they do to any form of relationship or friendship, other than “client”.
I think its very funny that the people who are the most morally outraged at the idea of casual sex are always the first to think up the dirtiest forms of sex to talk about. You think we’re bad, you’re the one trying to surround yourself with incestuousness hookers. Naughty, naughty.
FWB’s can be really messy….
It sounds like it stopped being a FWB situation when you gave him your response to his invite, “That’s for boyfriends only.” The minute he knew that, it gave him a clue that you may potentially want more from him. If he didn’t want to do that, it’s understandable that he would move on to the next FWB candidate. Was it sleazy that he immediately started looking for her while he was still on the phone with you? Absolutely. Yet sometimes FWB situations can be kinda sleazy and that’s part of their appeal. If it’s something you don’t want for yourself anymore, just end it with him like you did with the other guy. However, rather than making it fade, let him know straight out that he’s no longer getting the benefits and take some time to evaluate whether he’s worth being your friend in the first place.
” “That’s for boyfriends only.” The minute he knew that, it gave him a clue that you may potentially want more from him.”
I agree with others that that line was vague.
If it was meant to give him a clue, a 3AM drunk dial is a really really really terrible time to start dropping hints about taking the relationship to another level.
I would argue it stopped being a fwb deal much earlier than that, when she. Equated them getting together 3 or 4 nights a week with an evolution of the relationship, instead of the existing friendship + sex.
Only once in my life have I ever done the FWB thing… I had just extricated myself from a long term relationship & I thought FWB was the best thing ever, because I had zero emotional energy left & my empathy meter must have been malfunctioning.
Ring-&-bang, right? Sex on-call from a hot guy who I barely had to talk to??
Needless to say, I hurt him very badly because I really thought I could get a free lunch from this guy. No such thing, kids; no such thing.
I think this guy (after a 6-year relationship) is probably emotionally drained as well & probably doesn’t have a good handle on LW’s feelings.
The part that stuck out to me in the letter was: “He was just out of a six-year relationship when we started hooking up, which is why we kept things casual…” Inevitably, when you start off adjusting a relationship for the other party (to a lower standard than what you would want if you made all decisions) the relationship is probably heading for an eventual let-down.
And I totally agree with Wendy – this issue is not about disrespect so much as it you hoping this relationship would progress (when you show him how “cool” you are – believe me I’ve been there!) and it just didn’t (for reasons outside of your control).
And typically if some one is just getting out of a really long term relationship, they are going to need some serious time to reestablish their identity.
Yeah, the “which is why we kept things casual….” part is pretty indicative. It says that for her, this FWB may have been part of progressing to something else.
“Do I give him a lecture about FWB courtesy ”
Does that even exist ? I mean is there really a code of conduct out there for this type of situation ?
Even Jerry and Elaine couldn’t make it work.
It sounds to me she’s playing so many games with him, that he doesn’t know whats up… Whats with the “boyfriends only…” comment? Ugh that sounds so lame to me, no offense LW. It reminds me of that girl on the bachelor who said she wouldn’t let the guy kiss her until he picked her at the end, and then was like, “don’t you want to kiss me???” and would sit in his lap and stuff.
http://www.mamakatslosinit.com/2010/01/the-bachelor-kiss-me-you-fool/
Anyway, you were playing games with him, not being honest about what you wanted and how you felt. I bet if you stop doing that, maybe things will be clearer. Maybe he’s thinking you don’t want to be his girlfriend, and he was trying to make you jealous so you’d change your mind.
I was thinking that maybe it is the other way round from how Wendy understood it. i read it that the guy maybe wanted more and has done for a while. The LW likes having someone tell her how amazing she is and how cool but then backs away from any emotional intimacy (boyfriend/ girlfriend style) whatsoever so so is he . Sounds like he maybe wanted a little more but has been rebuffed. He is just treating her how he thinks she is treating him. He probably knew she was hooking up with someone else and so is he. What is to be upset about here?
“Hey Lw, I just wanted to let you know that you are so awesome and special and I don’t know anyone like you, do you want to come over? No? Ok. Hey hold on a sec, getting another call…”
“Hey Christy, how are you? I just wanted to know that you are so awesome and special and I don’t know anyone like you, do you want to come over? You’re busy? Oh, ok. Hey hold a sec, getting another call…”
“Becky! Hey, how are you doin, sweet thing? I just wanted to let you know that you are so awesome and special and I don’t know anyone like you, do you want to come over?….”
I want you to sit down and really take an accurate guess at how many other FWBs you think this guy has. Now times that number by two. Times it by three probably. This guy wanted to get laid. At that exact moment. You were really special to him, you know, as soon as you came over. This dude was horny. You refused him. He got pissed and punished you by telling you about his other FWBs. And when some chick did finally come over you ceased to exist. Then after he got his vadge fix the next morning he realized how much of a douche he was and went back to being a good friend again. I don’t think he’s a bad guy, but he’s got boning to manage and he’s working overtime with no holiday pay.
Dudes with FWBs have to constantly balance your girly feelings with the level of sexy time they can successfully manage. You may think that you two are equals in this sitch, but the truth is that he thinks you’re going to explode GIRL FEELINGS any day now and proclaim your love for him. Doesn’t matter if you would, he’ll always think it. So he has to keep you interested in a way he thinks girls want to be hit on, but not so much that you will want a relationship, hence the sweet texts, followed by the cold shoulder. Some FWB’s can work, but everybody’s got to make sure they’re trimming their FWB hedges appropriately so that no one gets disrespected, and this guy’s poon lawn has crab grass all over it.
You want to get out of this successfully, tell him you have to stop because you’re developing feelings for him. He immediately believe, hell he always thought you did, and he’ll still want to hang out. Trust me, it works.
…”after he got his vadge fix”…
…”but he’s got boning to manage and he’s working overtime with no holiday pay. ”
Sarah, You are HILARIOUS!
“… this guy’s poon lawn has crab grass all over it.”
Hysterical.
he’s got boning to manage and he’s working overtime with no holiday pay.
thats the best line, like, ever.
Sarah, I’ve always found your humorous. Now I wish you were my personal friend so I can tell you all the random shit happening in my life and you can wrap it up into a comical, yet scarily accurate, metaphor and we can follow that up by going out to people watch in bars.
Sarah, I like your comments, very witty, open minded and non judgmental.
But what I am really wondering about is this:
“You want to get out of this successfully, tell him you have to stop because you’re developing feelings for him. He immediately believe, hell he always thought you did, and he’ll still want to hang out. Trust me, it works.”
Why would she not end it by telling him that she is no longer up to having this sort of relationship with a guy thats calls Becky, Christy, Lw…and who treats her as any other chick?
Why would she not end it by saying it was fun while it lasted but I dont feel there is the necessary sincerity and respect (as you say in order for great sex you need to feel respect) for her to continue?
Why do you suggest that she says that she is developing feelings?
I am in a similar situation and I feel that I could continue a FWB relationship if the guy had a lot more respect and sincerity about where we stand, but there isnt, and I want to end it. But I would never say that I am developing feelings for him because that is not true, I was wondering though, why you say it works.
Sort of a side note, but has anyone actually heard of a FWB that didn’t crash and burn? I haven’t that is for sure.
From the tone of your letter, LW, it does sound like you were hoping that more would develop. And it sucks that it didn’t. But based on your relationship (FWB), I don’t really think you have a right to get mad. I would stop seeing him and give yourself time to get over him.
I think there were a few staring Mila Kunis and Ashton Kutcher…but outside of movies, FWB relationships aren’t built to last.
Sometimes they fizzle out through mutual disinterest.
I think it’s really how to define the “success” of a FWB relationship. I have had one that I consider a success. It was on and off from the time I was 16-21. On when we were both single, off when that wasn’t the case. He was a friend, and we were both extremely attracted to eachother. However it had to end because I figured out that having him as a back up was stopping me from really giving other relationships a chance. We haven’t spoken in over two years, but I still wish him the best.
Did he do things that hurt my feelings? Of course. But I knew what I was getting into. I would be emotional from time to time, and he was always super sweet to me and would tell me very nice lies to make me feel better. At that point in my life that was what I needed. I needed him to pretend to care about my feelings which I figured out what I wanted from life. When he told me how great I was and how pretty and how special I was compared to all other girls he knew, I knew it was a lie, but I was willing to pretend it was true.
I think the problem is that many times girls go into it knowing what their getting into it for, are fine with it at first, and then get to a point where they decide they are ready for a real relationship. The problem is they try to look to the person they are already banging for that relationship. This is where feelings get hurt. I think the LW needs to be honest with herself and her feelings and realize if she is developing feelings for him, she is probably ready for a relationship now, where she wasn’t when she started the FWB relationship.
This FWB relationship is only a failure if she looks at it from the point where she didn’t get a relationship out of it, but that was never the point of it in the first place.
LW – just move on, don’t take it personally, cease all contact, and try not to look at it as him disrespecting you, as much as you outgrew the relationship. This is no one’s fault. Be completely single and go out and look for the type of relationship you are ready for.
I feel like a lot of women in FWB situations are, as you said , “hoping for more to develop”. And a lot of times this happens right after a guy has gotten out of a relationship. This usually ends up crashing and burning whether things get confusing or one of the parties finds someone they actually want to date. My bf had a FWB before he met me. The poor girl was obviously trying to wait him out and convinced he would eventually want to date her. Well he didn’t…if a guy wants to date you he will. Otherwise never assume monogamy.
Right. Too many women always seem to want Friends with both Benefits AND Potential….
I think plenty of women go into FWB relationships with the right intentions, but then the oxytocin kicks in and they start to feel attachment. I’m not saying this happens to all women, but it does seem to happen frequently among the women I know who have FWB arrangements. When you have a chemical attachment to someone you can’t see things as objectively as you did before-like them sleeping with other people. Of course it’s no big deal if my “friend” sleeps with other people. That makes logical objective sense. But if you’re attached to your friend chemically you’re probably going to feel instinctively jealous when they do. And objectively that’s not very friendly behaviour.
My one and only FWB actually turned into the relationship I’m in now. But we both secretly wanted more …so maybe it wasn’t a genuine FWB. And the fact that it turned into a relationship means that it did crash and burn, although in probably a romantic way. LOL.
Yep. I’ve had a few that worked quite well and I’m still friends with them even though there aren’t any sexual benefits anymore.
Actually, I’ve had several great FWB relationships in my life. And, I’ve had some that weren’t so great, but even those didn’t exactly crash and burn… The difference? I know what to expect and don’t fantasize that they are going to become something they’re not.
I was in a FWB relationship for about six months, and guess what? It worked! Why? Because we were on the same page. We were both honest about what we wanted out of it and could renegotiate when things changed. (We are still friends, but without benefits because I’m having committed sex with someone else.)
Having uncommitted sex isn’t “mutual exploitation”. We were friends first, which means we respected each other enough to be upfront. The LW’s problem is that they weren’t clear about the rules (“at the start it was *implied* that we were free to see other people”) and she wasn’t honest (with herself or him) when she started to want more (exclusivity).
The key to making a FWB situation work is to state the rules, not imply them, and be honest if you want a re-evaluation of them.
The line that stuck out the most to me was this one (as several other commenters have mentioned as well): “It made me feel so cheap, and so disrespected and would never expect that from a FWB.” In the letter, the LW admits that over the 5 month course of this FWB relationship that this guy has become her best friend. I almost feel like the line should read “It made me feel so cheap, and so disrespected and would never expect that from my best friend.” To me, this seems to be the reason that FWBs can get so messy and can crash and burn, because, seemingly, a “best friend” wouldn’t do something like that to make you feel crappy. I love Wendy’s advice to maybe step away from this guy for a little bit and give yourself some space.
Here’s the other thing about that line:
Nobody else can “make” her feel cheap. If she feels cheap, she needs to examine her own behavior.
Agreed. True story.
Not sure why the LW is shocked at all.
I’ve been through something relatively similar and, in my case, it was the disrespect associated with the friendship. I expected him to treat me better than just some “random” girl. I think he tried but we have different ideas of what that meant.
LW, I agree with Wendy 100%. Don’t beat yourself up or regret decisions. Just pull yourself together and remove yourself from the situation as maturely and calmly as possible. Keep yourself together at work and tell him you need a little space because this isn’t working for you anymore. The awkwardness will fade and you’ll be fine.
Can we define Friends with Benefits please? It’s the same as Fuck Buddy, right? Fuck Buddy’s do not talk/text every day. The only way for these FWB situations to work out is if you only call/text when you want to get laid. You can still hang out in social settings, sure, but you cannot be best friends. You can’t even be good friends. Otherwise, you are in a Casual Relationship. Or you’re casually dating. Or you are straight up having sex with your best friend. That’s not FWB.
Terrific breakdown! I think that the LW started blurring that FWB line at that’s where the problems started.
I so agree! If you talk to someone daily, you have sex, and you consider them to be your best friend…. that’s NOT a FWB situation! That’s also an accurate description of a happily married couple. It seems like the LW was falling into the camp of “I want something more but he’s not ready for that so I’ll take what I can get”.
*trying really hard to NOT rant and rave about how FWB situations never work out*
The answers to your questions are: No, you have no right to be mad. No, you do not give him a lecture. Yes, you move on. You might be able to keep him as a friend, as long as you set some very clear boundaries. At work, I’d just treat him like any other casually-known coworker if you can.
It’s very easy to be okay with someone sleeping with other people as long as you don’t see the evidence of it. You tell yourself you know about it and you’re alright with it, and then WHAM BAM it slams you in the face and all of a sudden it’s real. Real sucks, and it’s a totally different animal than hypothetical. I think (based on your letter), that you need to do some introspection and be able to admit to yourself that you did have feelings for this guy. When you have come to terms with that, you can start to move on. Either that or get another guy right quick 😉
For the record, I have had FsWB twice. Both lasted about 2 weeks.
When you think about it ,FWB’s are just prostitutes that pay each other with sex.
fail 😉 but really, no.
OK, let me try this joke again:
When you think about it, being FWB’s is the ultimate form of bartering.
Getting there.
“…being FWB’s is the ultimate form of bartering.”
I thought that was marriage? 😉
LOVE THIS COMMENT.
“Honey I really want to paint the bedroom a cranberry color, is that okay?” ….
“Um sounds a little girly” ….
“Would a blow job change your mind” …
sExxxactly!
Cranberry?!
I’m not painting any bedroom of mine cranberry without some DP action. A blowjob wouldn’t even qualify as a starting point for negotiation.
Apparently blow jobs fly around your house a little more frequently.
That’s fine, but then she gets the foral duvet cover to match the cranberry walls.
*floral
▲ ▲ Guys stop being so witty, i have work to do, even if it IS a holiday here 🙁
I see a pretty good business model here. Couples e-mail me with a description of something they want from the other person and (for a reasonable fee) I arbitrate the sexual favor to be exchanged.
LW, you got feelings for the guy. There’s nothing wrong with that, pretty understandable, but you have to come to terms with it. And don’t knock him for seeing other people. If you were really ok with it/didn’t feel for him, you wouldn’t give two shits about actually being confronted with him hooking up with someone.
Wendy, after the Wedding War stories for the weekend are done with on the open thread, could we have an open thread of FWB stories on the week the next FWB letter comes up? Pretty please?
Yes! Can you send me an email to remind me so I can file it in my “open thread ideas” folder?
I haven’t read any of the comments yet, but I actually thought that the roles were reversed. I didn’t think she was too into him, I though he was too into her. He called her and talked about his feelings, he felt that she shunned him, so then he wanted to make it obvious that *he* could get any girl he wanted and purposefully (because, let’s be honest, there was nothing accidental about it) made her listen to how he was getting ready to screw another girl to make her jealous. I don’t think she necessarily has a lot of romantic feelings for the guy, but it always stings a little to know that you’re so easily replaceable and it seems very natural to be jealous in such a position.
So what I think is that the guy is the one with feelings, his feelings got hurt, he wanted to make her jealous, and it succeeded. It doesn’t make any of them bad people and I don’t think anyone necessarily did anything wrong, but it does seem like the FWB has run it’s course. Not because she’s too into him, but possibly because of the other way around. Even if neither of them have “those” kinds of feelings, the situation has gotten to be a little too messy.
i was thinking about that too. She keeps telling him she doesn’t want to sleep over, etc. I think she’s thinking that will make him want to date her more, but I don’t think guys respond well to games like that. Instead he’s just taking her at her word- that she doesn’t want him to stay over, because she doesn’t want him to be her boyfriend.
I didn’t get any indication that she was trying to use reverse psychology. I thought she didn’t want to stay over because then it would seem like the relationship is too serious and would venture into territory she didn’t want it to go in. *He* is the one who asks her to stay over, and it sounds like it’s happened more than once. Isn’t it usually the guy who can’t wait to get the girl out of his house? But in this case he wants her to stay, which suggests to me that he’s the one with more feelings.
I’m not personally inclined towards FWB situations, but isn’t the point supposed to be that they’re all the fun of the physical without the messy of the relationship? To me, this sounds like you’re getting the drama of a relationship without the respect and love. FWB’s are not about love, so if they start being a pain in the ass and make you feel awful, it should (theoretically) be pretty easy to just dump that ass right?
Gee, yet another LW who really simply can’t handle a FWB relationship. I am so shocked… Yawn. And what’s with all this — Oh, I want him to be free to see other people, oh, but he really can’t see other people! Wah, he saw other people! Wah, I am so disrespected… Wahhhhh!
I have a challenge for you: Say something constructive to the next LW.
It sickens me that people like this woman and this man live in this world. So sad that people use each other as lust objects….
Or two people help each other to explore their sexuality in safe environment with a trusted friend without the fixed expectations of how a relationship should define your sexual needs. Same dif.
Please re-consider your quick judgement of these people.
Life is very complicated & each individual mind has its own goals to accomplish, weaknesses to defend, & strengths to stoke.
Everything in life carries its own lessons & I’m sure that both LW and her friend have learned from this experience – though I am not agreeing with you that they did anything “wrong” whatsoever.
i wish someone was using me as a lust object. It’s great to be loved of course, but sometimes things being purely physical and emotionless and just *have to have you now* is SO HOT. haha can you tell i haven’t been single for a while?
Wow. I’m hoping you’re over 40. By all means consider me a skankface if you want to, but in between relationships I still need some lovin’. And instead of having random one night stands I am more comfortable banging someone I know well and trust. It helps keep my number down while still getting to do the dirty.
Man tough crowd. My first dose of advice that involved a personal element and it’s not going well. In case I need to clarify I have only ever done the dirty with 4 people. This particular friends with benefit (16-21) started out as dating and it didn’t work out. We just kept going back to eachother in between relationships.
You DO NOT need to clarify – your opinion stands as good advice, shared with good intentions.
I agree that the most disturbing thing about this thread of comments is the idea that one person – on an internet forum – is in any kind of position to pass judgement on any other person.
no, I’m 30, and I choose to only make love to people I love. Sharing something so intimate and precious without love is very odd to me. I can’t even bring myself to kiss someone I don’t like much less “do the lovely” with them.
Well that’s great for you. I’m glad it’s worked out. No need to judge those of us who have different ideas. Maybe I find the judgmental way you live your life “sickening”
Oh, so you’re just imposing your own personal preference on everyone else? Good to know. Here I thought outright disgust was reserved for puppy kickers and child abuse.
This situation is dear to my heart. It’s as if she said she goes around kicking puppies to me….If she really was kicking puppies we would all be saying the same thing I said.
If you don’t believe in friends with benefits how can this possibly be near and dear to your heart? If it doesn’t affect you I don’t see how you could be so passionate about it. I’m not trying to be rude but please explain how if you have never had one how you can possibly care if other people do.
I’ve never kicked a puppy, abused a child, set fire to a house, murdered anyone, and yet I think all people that do those things are wrong and all those situations are near and dear to my heart too as far as teaching people those things are wrong. I’m not the morality police, I’m just letting people know my opinion in this free open forum. Sorry if I offended anyone.
People who kick a puppy, abuse a child, set fire to a house or murder someone are hurting those who have not consented to the action being set against them. How does a FWB relationship hurt someone who hasn’t consented to the relationship? How does it possibly affect and hurt you or anyone else not in the relationship?
This subject — the subject of others policing whom consenting adults sleep with — is near and dear to my heart. It’s people who are holier than thou about what goes on in the privacy of consenting adults’ bedrooms that have set this society so freakishly far behind when it comes to gay rights, for one thing.
Thank you Wendy! That was a much better articulated way of saying what I was getting at.
Just a different viewpoint but, if she gets pregnant then she’s hurting someone. I’m not agreeing with sarolabelle or anyone else in the matter. I’m not looking down on FWB situations or anyone in them, it’s fine for those who want it. I’m not comparing it to kicking puppies or anything like that and I honestly don’t care about what other people do in their own private lives. I’m just saying, sex does have the potential to hurt someone. I know enough people who’ve had abortions/babies with no fathers to know that. NSA sex can hurt someone who hasn’t consented to it, IMO, but only if unwanted pregnancy is the result.
Think of sex like drinking. It’s fun, but should always be done responsibly.
She’s not hurting someone, she’s hurting herself, and that is her perogative. If you hurt a puppy/murder someone/whatever else you are hurting someone that does not drserve it. Different. The only people it would hurt are the people consenting to it.
I agree with your argument that sex should always be done responsibly, but I think that argument is no different for FWB relationships than other relationships whether their married/dating exclusively, whatever. I am married and if I got pregnant now I would still consider it irresponsible because i’m not ready for kids and don’t have what I consider enough money to be able to provide the type of life I would want to provide for my future kids. So I don’t think the “responsibility” argument is specific to FWB, that’s just an argument about sex in general.
How two consenting adults derive pleasure (so long as it isn’t hurting anyone else) cannot possibly be dear to your heart, especially in situations like this. That’s like saying I hold it near and dear to my heart and find it disgusting when people enjoy “facials.” It doesn’t concern me, it cannot possibly concern me, and it’s just silly and judgmental. You may know people who have had bad FWB situations, and I know people who have taken sperm shots to the eye, but that doesn’t mean we’re justified in making blanket statements that they’re disgusting and anyone who partakes in them are somehow sub-human.
Consenting adults =/= incapable-of-consent/defenseless animals. Get your head straight and butt out of the sex lives of others.
why are other peoples’ sex lives dear to you? creepy
People who’ve had great sex know that the key to it doesn’t just come from love, it comes from mutual sexual attraction and respect, love just happens to include those. I guarantee you I wouldn’t be as trusting and fulfilling a sexual partner to my boyfriend now if I didn’t have experiences with friends that let me feel safe to be adventurous without worrying about how they would judge me.
You CAN build that trust and safety to be sexually adventrous within the context of a romantic relationship, but it takes a lot longer. As in good luck getting there in 5 years, but it is possible.
I’d be interested to know how you draw the line between people you love & people you don’t love.
I believe very strongly that every single gathering of energy in the universe deserves & requires my full & unadulterated love.
I can think of some things that truly sicken me, but what 2 consenting adults do in the bedroom is not one of them.
You have a total right to your opinion. Having said that, I think your opinion is misguided, judgmental, puritanical, and harsh.
While I agree with Wendy, I have to say that I think the guy DID disrespect her and WAS an asshole. It’s one thing to have multiple FWBs–and LW was okay with that–but it’s quite another thing to rub it in one girl’s face that you just replaced her with the next girl on your list. No matter what the situation is, that’s rude. I think LW has every right to be hurt and angry. Maybe she shouldn’t have expected better from this guy, but he was mean to her (even if inadvertently so while drunk), and she’s allowed to have her feelings and pride hurt.
A strange situation. These FWB see each other and communicate more than a fair number of dating couples and even married couples that I know. They spend 3-4 nights a week together, see each other every morning on workdays, message and phone daily. That’s a lot. She won’t sleep over because ‘that’s for boyfriends’. They need to sit down and decide what they want their relationship to be and whether each is comfortable with the other’s expectations. It seems most are acting out a bit, because they are unhappy with the current FWB definition. If I’m seeing someone 4 nights a week and communicating almost constantly, then she is a girlfriend, regardless of terminology. I didn’t see my wife that frequently until after we were married. Most busy couples really don’t have time and schedule flexibility for this level of contact. I’m amazed the guy has time to fool around with other girls, although he hasn’t broken their agreement. I doubt he has multiple other FWBs on the side, unless he doesn’t have any life apart from his sexual pursuits.
so your in a FWB situation, and then your mad because he was with other girls to? that just doesn’t make sense. you are obviously way to invested in this as a real relationship, so you should end it, just for your own sanity.
i dont think that there is anything disrespectful that can be done in a FWB situation, besides the obvious name calling or violence or whatever… i mean “all is fair in love and war”, right? that is like magnified 1000% in FWBs.
i know that when i was sort of doing this stuff, i totally texted one guy while i was with the other one, and i would leave one to go see the other that i liked better, ect, ect… its all fair. there are no attachments, no promises. thats the entire idea of FWB.
on a personal note, i dont sleep with people who i am not in a commited relationship with, so all my FWB were just making out pretty much. maybe that is why you got so invested? because you were sleeping together? it is apparently impossible for a woman to have sex without making an emotionally connection to the person- the chemicals that are released in our brain make it that way. so maybe you should approach your FWB situations differently next time.
Friends with benefits is such a touchy subject… Wrote an article about it a few weeks ago with a good response
I just don’t think it can work as often as we’d like it to..
“FWB courtesy”?!?!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA.
Sorry, but really?
If you want “courtesy” and “respect”, don’t sleep around with someone for “free”.
Courtesy and respect are not just for people you are in romantic committed relationships with. I show courtesy to and respect for my friends in general. Sleeping with someone doesn’t negate the requirements of basic human decency.
There is not a code of ethics or an accepted list of courtesies for FWBs, but I think showing the same respect or thoughtfulness you’d show to a friend or to another person you had some care for is certainly to be expected. If the person you’re sleeping with can’t do that, he doesn’t deserve any friendship or benefits.
I didn’t see any lack of “basic human decency” from the LW’s guy. He seemed to absolutely be “respecting” the FWB “relationship”— since when is he obligated to NOT hook up with/talk to other women? As far as I can understand the FWB rules, as long as she gets har bang when she wants it, then her guy is “courteously” and “respectfully” fulfilling the FWB obligations.
The LW here in this situation is upset because she is obviously seeking more than the general FWB arrangement, and is getting her feelings (hello, jealousy!) involved, and is THEREFORE feeling hurt because she is expecting the *type* of courtesy and respect that only comes with a caring, **committed** relationship that is more than sexually-based.
I hope I cleared some things up.
that’s: ‘ “HER” bang’
While in general I agree that she had no reason to get her feelings hurt since she technically knew he was probably banging other people, I still don’t think we should discredit her feelings. There’s a difference between the hypothetical ‘we are allowed to bang other people’ and I told him I couldn’t hang out so he answered another girls bang while I was on the phone with him.
I can’t really say his behavior wasn’t rude, even if she really had no “right” to get mad. This is just her cue to move on. I don’t like it when people say that one person isn’t ‘allowed to have feelings’. Yes in their arrangement it was bang with no side of emotions, but she is allowed to feel however she does about a situation. Her only fault would be now to continue this unhealthy relationship now that her feelings have changed since the start of the FWB relationship.
I was responding to this sentence you wrote:
“If you want “courtesy” and “respect”, don’t sleep around with someone for “free”.”
Even if you are sleeping with someone in a FWB relationship, I expect that “friend” or “fuck buddy” would care about your feelings and show courtesy and respect. (The “free” thing has been addressed elsewhere, so I’ll leave that out.)
I am slightly disturbed by this comment thread. In a lot of responses I get the underlying feeling that people still look at a woman owning her sex drive means she is giving it up for free, is the same thing as a prostitute, and is sickening. Somehow I doubt if this was a guy that wrote in he would be getting such harsh language. No one ever says that a guy in a FWB situation is “giving it up for free”.
What year are we in?? I would expect better from people who read dearwendy on a regular basis.
I completely agree. Why the need to view sex as some kind of business transaction?
When your goal is to remove the emotion from sex and just have its gratification, it pretty much looks like a business transaction (or at least a social transaction). I’m not saying that Friends With Banging arrangements are whorish or bad, but they certainly are ARRANGEMENTS. Here, surprise of surprises, one FWB ventured across that emotional line whether she wants to admit it or not and difficulties ensue.
In terms of ‘giving it up for free’, the main issue here is that the LW was NOT giving it up for free… she was giving a piece of her heart along with it. 🙁 ***COTW self-nomination piece***
It doesn’t look like a business transaction, it looks like sex. When I sign a contract the last thing I am thinking of is getting it on.
I agree that she ended up giving up a piece of her heart, but I still don’t like the term “giving it up for free”. It reminds me of the old saying, “why buy the cow if you get the milk for free”. Which then reminds me of little house on the prairie. I think it’s pretty degrading to say that women can’t have sex without “giving up their purity” yet men can and they are in a FWB…no slutty references afterwards. Both men and women can be in FWB, no need to say the women is giving it up for free.
Yes she’s getting emotionally attached, which is why I think she just needs to evaluate where her head and heart are. Clearly she’s ready for a relationship with commitment, she just shouldn’t look to the FWB for that relationship.
By saying she is giving it up for free you can’t deny that you will make her feel shame, when she has no reason to.
That’s pretty funny because whenever I sign a new client to contract, it’s all I can do to fight off the success boner.
I never meant ‘giving it up for free’ as a shaming device. What I was trying to say is that if you’re seriously considering a FWB relationship, you’d better be prepared to ‘give it up for free’ in the sense that it’s free of emotional attachment. Extremely few people (man or woman) are mentally prepared to do that for any extended period of time. The only time I’ve ever seen it work out is in the BDSM community. You rock on, you sleek bastards!
Okay I can get on board with that. I don’t disagree with your general thought process, but I still don’t like the term ‘giving it up for free’. That makes it sound like she’s on the losing end of this deal, when she still is getting something out of it – booty – which is what she signed up for.
She is on the losing end of this deal. He’s happy, and she’s miserable.
Yeah but i’m assuming she hasn’t *always* been miserable with the arrangement. It seems like it was working up until the phone call shenanigans. At which point it seems a little ridiculous to say the whole 5 months was a failure. It doesn’t need to be this dramatic falling out. She just needs to realize it’s not working anymore, and move on.
That would be like saying a two year relationship you had that was amazing, but you just outgrew eachother was a failure. Unless the relationship goes down in flames i’m sure most people still consider long term relationships successes even though most end in breaking up.
Because sex in a FWB relationship is exactly that: You give me sex, and I give you sex in return.
Sex in a committed, monogamous relationship is far more complicated than this *theoretically* simple arrangement that is FWB.
If you don’t like my use of “giving it up for free”, then okay, she is giving sex up for sex (yes, of course she’s getting something out of this deal).
But she IS stepping over the boundaries as soon as she expects her guy to be conscious of and courteous toward her *feelings*. All he is getting from her is sex, why would he put the extra effort to think or care about how a non-sex action of his is making her feel? This scenario is where FWB turns into something more.
There is a difference between treating someone like a girlfriend and giving them decent human being respect. I am not dating people I encounter everyday and still give them a certain level of respect.
No one should treat another person like crap. Yes, every single person has the “right” to treat anyone they want to like crap, that doesn’t mean it’s a good fucking idea.
I want to act like a bitch face to random people on a very regular basis, but normal human beings have acquired the decency by a certain age to realize life goes a lot better if they just take a deep breath and smile, act polite, and then go home and drink some wine. I hate the argument that oh we aren’t in a relationship I can treat XYZ like crap. That’s not exactly great energy to put out into the universe.
But he is not getting sex for free or simply trading sex for sex. He is putting an awful lot of effort into this and giving her tons of attention. I would be surprised if he doesn’t have true feelings for her. He is depicted as this guy with multiple women on the string who is just out for sex, but he couldn’t possibly be spending the time on a bunch of other women that he is spending on LW. They are boyfriend and girlfriend who for whatever reason haven’t been able to get past the initial FWB label. I’ve known a fair number of guys in FWB relationships, including back in the days before the term was invented. Never knew one to be in this constant communication with any of the women. There have certainly always been guys who didn’t want to marry, or didn’t think they did. This may be this guys situation, but he definitely thinks of LW as his girlfriend. What the LW describes as his rudeness appears to be jealousy lashing out on his part. I think it bugs him that she won’t sleep over. Doubt he thinks she is as serious about him as he is or that she is taking the prostitute view on sex (we can have sex, but we can’t kiss or cuddle, because that isn’t our contractual arrangement).
there is a difference between FWB and a booty call. I’m sorry but FWB has the term friend in there for a reason. I wouldn’t expect my booty call to give a shit about my feelings but if my FWB doesn’t care, then there’s a problem. I do agree that these two are playing games with each other, however he went overboard by leaving her on the line while he greeted another friend. He should have hung up the phone. And she definitely needs to move on.
I would certainly be the FIRST to tell a guy that there is no such thing as a FWB relationship. If she’s your friend and you are attracted to her, stop f*cking her and start romancing her; If she’s just your sex partner, leave 20 bucks on the nightstand and don’t expect breakfast.
What year are we in? We are smack dab between “Generation Why” and “Generation Me”, hence, every DW letter has that heir of “Why Me?” “Gee golly whiz, all I did was f*ck everyone I used to care about and now they don’t respect me! Why me?!”
“BECAUSE YOU REAP WHAT YOU SEW!!!!”
Wow! That was spectacularly anti-feminist! Any chance your last name is Robertson?
No, I’m not quite anti-feminist, and pardon my ignorance, but I don’t know who Robertson is. You may like to read some of my follow-up posts.
Pat Robertson?
Okay, I just read about who he is, and yes, I heard of the guy. Crazy person. Ultra-conservative Christian maniac. I am unsure of your reference here. And excuse me for speaking my mind, people. I am getting that this is one ultra-liberal group of readers. Yeeesh.
am i the only one in the world who thinks that sleepovers are less intimate than actual sex? i dont get it — if you’re having sex with someone, how does not sleeping over make it less intimate?
I guess people feel that if they restrict the contact to only the sexual act, it’s really all about the sex and not about intimacy. ( I do get your point but for me, the sleeping over/waking up together is very special and intimate )
I think their point of view is that cuddles are too emotionally messy. Intimate, but in a different way.
Note: Being married does not preclude this.
I’m having trouble with all the comments that reference “giving it away for free,” etc. because I don’t think sex should be seen as a relational currency.
In romantic relationships, I don’t think people should use sex as a bartering chip & I don’t think people in committed relationships are “exchanging” sexual intimacy for emotional support & intimacy.
Similarly, I don’t think that people are “exchanging” sexually satisfying behaviors in a FWB relationship.
I think humans have sexual needs (which vary by individual & are charged with biological imperatives) and they will meet them to some degree of satisfaction (whether it’s hiring a prostitute, masturbating, having wet dreams, reading romantic books, taking long baths, settling for a shitty “relationship” or getting a FWB). FWB is a pretty good solution for some people because of the freedom to express sexual desires openly without fear of losing anything since there is nothing but sexual desire & the comfort of a friendship.
HOWEVER, I don’t think extended FWB relationships can work. It only works to do it as a limited “fling” with clear communication & no cherished hopes of romance developing – otherwise, expectations (time commitment, availability, exclusivity) and resentments build up & blow up.
“My FWB disrespected me.” What does she think these arrangements are about, anyway? Mutual respect or something? You’re agreeing to no-strings-attached sex, respecting yourself and another person really aren’t high on the list.
Maybe one of those people who hope somehow a FWB situation will turn into a real, outside-the-bedroom relationship.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!
He didn’t disrespect you as a FWB, he disrespected you as a person.
Totally agree Anastasiachs, the only way to get the respect you seek is to not settle for treatment like the LW’s. Unfortunately FWB situations these days (and I am assuming the USA) leave people vulnerable to a lot of disrespect. Even if both parties are really well intentioned. I don’t recommend FWB situations if you seek to be treated like a princess 🙂
I feel like it’s immaturity, what do you gain by telling someone you are having intimacy with that that you are having sex with someone else, if you are not intentionally trying to make her jealous then what are you up to. To me it’s immaturity