Coversation with my guy best-friend about feminism: hiring male/female?
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@LisforLeslie
No, he is from the first world nation and I am from third world nation (not sure if those terms are still appropriate to use). He has two brothers. When we talk about our previleges he said just because his parents were not economically struggling doesn’t mean they could afford to send all three kids to university, as though our struggles were somewhat similar. I won a travel grant to attend an international conference during my PhD and I was super happy and proud (I was given 4000 CND, it was a big deal to me), this friend told me that yeah you got it because you are from a third world country and a girl so they have diversity to show among winners. There were 115+ applicants from all over the world and only 16 people were awarded, of course they had considered geographic and gender diversity but I was proud because my Phd project was really deserving and so was I, so my first reaction was to doubt myself and felt terrible as though I took someone else’s spot. He said it as though he was joking but I could not stop thinking or feeling terrible. I wanted everyone to see that my project had all the potential and it deserved the award. It took me so much time to realise fuck it, I deserve the award more so because I am from third world nation and I am a girl because those two did not make anything easier for me so far, why should I be feeling terrible. I read biographies (posted on the conference webpage) of all the winners to see if I was on par. But you know somewhere deep inside I feel like the struggle of proving myself doesn’t completely end because it’s so deeply engraved in me.@Kate
In the past I had missed the point, I knew I was being anti-feminist (if you read some of my replies where I give hints of my childhood and adulhood experiences you may see why I did that). Now I have unlearned so much of it and I understand the point of “choice”. I can totally see why you felt I was being anti-feminist about my questions to friend “whether was it her personality or gender?” it was only to make him see the situation from a broader view. I could have made an easier argument like so many of you commented here for ex. “it’s not worth her time” “she just doesn not want/need to lift weights as she is a marketing lead”. I think I should stop going over lengths to justify someone being misogynistic/sexist, I went far with this is friend. He means a lot to me and I have ignored his prejudices and/or ignorance for a long time now.
“I won a travel grant to attend an international conference during my PhD and I was super happy and proud (I was given 4000 CND, it was a big deal to me), this friend told me that yeah you got it because you are from a third world country and a girl so they have diversity to show among winners.”
Ew! I’d be dropping this friend. He seems incredibly ignorant. I used to get comments like this when I was in school. I got full tuition scholarships in undergrad and law school and the number of people who felt compelled to tell me that I only received generous financial aid was because the universities needed someone like me to bolster their diversity stats. When I’d get these comments, they were also “jokes” and I’d laugh with the “friends” who made them when I was younger because they’d make me feel insecure. I’m in my 30s and if that happened to me now, the reaction would be so different and I’d not be friends with anyone who said/believed stuff like this.
Agreed. He really is a shit head. This is someone who was taught to believe that everything he sees should be his. Unless another white guy owns it. Then the white guy is better than him and got it on merit. But if a woman owns it or a brown person owns it, it’s not be because they deserve it, it’s because they took it from him.
You got a travel grant to a conference because you justified why having you at that conference is valuable.
And you know what has been proven time and time again? That different view points, perspectives and approaches deliver higher quality results every freaking time.
Also, I think it’s fine/normal/good if your beliefs evolve as you get older. Mine have. I definitely internalized some of society’s bullshit messages when I was younger, particularly as a teenager. I’d say by my mid-20s, I was unlearning/challenging them. I’d be wary of anyone pushing 30 who still holds your friend’s absurd beliefs/leans into that many of the awful ~isms. I’d say I was around 30 when I decided I didn’t want to seek out the college friend I mentioned anymore. The final straw was when he told me I should lose 10 lbs because I was single and “competing” against younger women for dates. No amount of challenging his beliefs over the years changed how he thought because he’s a deeply misogynistic dick — like, I’d literally point out how sexist he was and he’d basically be like, “but men are men and btw biology!” — which is why I said I’d not even bother with devil’s advocate. People can change, but you cannot change people.
And just to further clarify, it’s NOT a personality flaw in the Marketing Head to not be doing the same manual labor as your friend, or trying to keep up with the boys. Asking if it’s her gender or her personality sets up a false dichotomy, where what she’s doing is bad, and it’s either explained by her gender or by her bad personality.
That said, you don’t need to be asking any questions at all, you can just kind of go, “oh, huh” or “damn, brother, that’s crazy” and move on to make new friends.
@Copa – my views on the world have definitely changed as people challenged me or I learned new information. And shit, I still find myself thinking stupidly and telling myself to do better. And I have this crowd to call out my bullshit when necessary as well. Thanks guys!
He’s not an old friend, right? Or a good friend. Please stop wasting your time on people who waste your time. It’s precious. You really don’t have infinite time to battle the idiots in life. You don’t have to try and give him the benefit of the doubt or try to teach him or show him…you’re in grad school, and he’s a sexist, negative jerk, at the very least, that is who he is at 31 or whatever after growing up with plenty of privilege. Please stop apologizing for him, and for his beliefs and just recognize they are counterintuitive to you being a friend of his. He believes women are inferior. If that’s cool with you, proceed. You make your own choices to engage with him. You can choose not to.
“You only got the grant because you’re a woman from a third world country.”
Why on earth do you still speak to this person after he said something like that to you? Please seek counseling at your school. You seem to have little self worth and a lot of ingrained sexist, derogatory beliefs about women and yourself.
Why have you ignored his prejudices and ignorance? That’s not something that seems smart for you to ignore. It’s not ignorance. He’s a learned man from a first world country, it’s racism, it’s sexism, it’s homophobia or whatever it is that he’s spouting. He knows better, just like you do.
You’re a woman and from a third world country. Don’t give racist, sexist guys the benefit of the doubt. Why do you allow yourself to take this verbal abuse from a “friend?” You should judge people by how they talk about and treat others, first and foremost how they treat YOU. He treats you like shit.
Counseling is free at school, probably?
@anonymousse
I am working now! I met this friend during my Phd in Europe (2016-2020) and we became best friend and he is like a family. Until now he wasn’t so brazen about his sexist/misogynistic comments, they were subtle or almost disguised as humour.
I moved to Europe again (2022) for work and he came to visit me from his country two weeks agao thats when this conversation happened (hiring male/female) and it just shook me to hear him say all this crap.
As I am growing I am also leaving behind lot of people/friends/cousins with whom I do not feel recognised or can not have a conversation without them being —ists.It hurts to think of letting go of this friend and past week I have struggled a lot with this thought.
And I dont mind being called girl, I guess I only wrote women for the purpose of not being mistaken as teenager or something.
It was so good to hear all your comments though! Thanks a heap!
