Your Turn: “He Followed a Pick-Up Artist!”
In a feature I call “Your Turn,” in which you, the readers, get to answer the question, I’m presenting the following letter without commentary from me:
Toward the end of the relationship, I discovered that he was very involved with the Pick Up Artist community. In short, he’d receive texts from a guy named DJ Fuji, and had tons of documents on his computer titled “DJ Fuji week 1, “DJ Fuji week 2,” etc. I Googled the guy and he is apparently a pick up artist who offers personal seduction coaching, which included text message support and weekly “homework.” Then I Googled Bill’s name and email address and found Twitter and YouTube accounts that followed tons of pick up artists and channels for seduction tips.
To clarify, I wasn’t looking through his phone or computer when I found this stuff; he has an iPhone, so whenever he’d receive a text, the sender’s name would flash on the screen in a giant font size, and I saw the documents when we were working together on a class project. I never read the content of the texts or files — I simply saw the titles of each when he was looking through his computer — so I don’t think I was snooping until I went on my Googling spree. While I don’t think Googling is snooping, I totally take responsibility for the fact that this was still a weird thing for me to do.
Anyway, I never told him what I found, but now that six months have passed, I still think of this pretty often. I don’t feel like I was deceived by Bill, or that he’s a bad person; I guess I’m just not sure about what kind of men are involved in the pick up artist community. I assumed that most guys had casually read about it online after the TV show a few years ago, but I was surprised that Bill was actually spending so much money on this service.
I’m curious to hear everyone’s thoughts on pick up artists. Are they mostly womanizers? Misogynists? Geeky guys with insecurities? How common is this? Any insight is greatly appreciated! — Former Artist’s Muse
Huh.
I’m almost speechless on this. Having never encountered it, I really can’t give you any first-hand knowledge on the issue. I would think that this is something to be FLATTERED by. I mean, the guy didn’t think he could approach you without help from an outside coach. Once he did get to know you, he realized that he wasn’t compatible with you and has moved on. He likes you as a friend and study buddy, but that’s it. It happens. At least he isn’t the creepy kid staring at you all the time.
naaah pick up guys are MAJOR skeevers, do some research if you don’t know anything about it and tell me if you still disagree.
Given that the only way to know for sure is to ask, and that seems like peeking behind the curtain in a killjoy kind of way, it seems that the LW can choose to think of the situation any way she likes. If that’s the case, I see great benefit in this way of looking at it. It’s affirmative. It’s positive. It’s a boost to the ego.
As for the skeevy concept…if he’s okay to hang out with as friends, even with a little peek at what the curtain is made of, it doesn’t feel too skeevy.
The pickup artist stuff is terrible. The good thing about it though, is you are taught how to build confidence. You actually really don’t have cheesy pickup lines. You need confidence to be able to talk to the opposite sex, and that is what a pickup artist teaches you. Some people that are artist are big time douchebags, but you should be able to spot those types.
yes, i do believe SOME of the tactics advanced on PUA forums would be considered legitimate emotional abuse & would absolutely kill any chance for a healthy relationship. but the guys who are doing that would do that in some way anyway….
also, will.i.am is one of my heroes & your assumption of that meme as your internet identity makes me feel a little fluttery every time you post LOL… i do realize that you are actually not he…
I doubt he’s either a womanizer or a misogynist just based on the simple fact that he let you go when it became clear you wanted more than he was willing to give rather than keep stringing you along. It is probably a fantasy thing– the fantasy of being able to have any woman he wants if he just learns the right tricks. It’s a little weird, but I don’t think it’s doing any real harm.
That’s what it is. Also, you have to understand that you will strike out at times as well. I know not every woman I’ve talked to, they felt that I was a catch for them. You have to put yourself out there to gain the experience of how to deal with the many different personalities that people have.
The person that is constantly bumping heads with people is the one that will never succeed.
I don’t really see how “the fantasy of being able to have any woman he wants if he just learns the right tricks” and “but I don’t think it’s doing any real harm” fit together. I think you’re reading it wrong too. If that’s his fantasy, then its not gracious that he let he go, its that he was able to catch her, had her and now is letting her go because he’s on to the next woman. pokemon style.
I don’t think either of them have come to any real harm out of their brief relationship. He could have strung her along with false promises while cheating on her– that would have done real harm. In this instance, they dated briefly, he decided that she wasn’t right for him and they broke up amicably. To me that means that it was a brief enough experience that she didn’t get too attached and he let her go when it was clear that they wanted different things. Since it sounds like he was neither stringing her along nor leading her on nor was it a “wham, bam, thank you ma’am.” I just don’t see the harm in it.
Just because he reads the stuff by pick-up artists and subscribes to their feeds doesn’t mean he’s going to magically become a smarmy womanizer. I fantasize all the time about being a musician– I’ve taken lessons and I watch them on youtube but I’m not going to quit my job to join a band. Just because you have a fantasy doesn’t necessarily mean that you lose sight of all reality. Certainly there are a lot of smarmy guys that fancy themselves pick-up artists or who follow pick-up artists, but I don’t think every guy who’s interested in that is by definition smarmy. This particular guy doesn’t seem to be giving off bad vibes, so yeah, I’m perfectly willing to chalk it up to a fairly ordinary fantasy.
Yeah, it pretty much does mean he’s a womanizer. They were dating for months and it is highly doubtful that he was monogamous during that period. If he were, he wouldn’t be paying good money to learn to be a better pick-up artist. He didn’t let LW go, she left him. If it was a case of him realizing that she wasn’t right for him, he would have told her so and moved on. She was his safe home base, while he was on the hunt.
He isn’t a shy guy seeking a relationship. He enjoys the thrill of the hunt and the personal validation he receives from each conquest. Perhaps he has his eyes set on the Wilt Chamberlain record. In any case, LW should move on without regret and get tested for every STD know to man. The tone of her letter suggests that she is okay and has her act together.
I think most people like the thrill of the hunt. Just because he is reading about something doesn’t mean he is doing something. the PUA is a fantasy for alot of guys. Like, just because I read the occasional romance novel doesn’t mean I am running around looking for Knight from the 16th century.
I disagree. He dumped her after free, no n exclusive sex. Its what they do!!
It is their only goal.
I think he was probably just insecure & needed a few extra tips. I think the whole point of it is more on how to seduce women rather than “conning a whole bunch of women at the same time without getting caught” Turtledove also makes a good point that he didn’t string you along after knowing you wanted exclusivity so I think that says something.
I have to agree. I knew one guy who met his fiancée (sadly, now ex) using some Pick Up Artist tricks and he is a very shy, very awkward fellow – I think he was just using it for confidence. I get the impression that that’s why most guys get into it.
While it seems a little desperate, how is taking the advice of a pick-up artist any worse than the girl who wrote in yesterday looking for dating guidelines? As long as he’s not using the tips just to manipulate women into sleeping with him (which from your description of your relationship with him doesn’t seem to be the case), to me, it’s just like he’s reading an interactive Cosmopolitan for men. It may not be the greatest advice, but if he’s not ruining his life or anyone else’s, what’s the harm?
I think it is different- my understanding is that at the extreme end, the PUA community views women as things to be captured, like (as a previous commenter mentioned), pokemon. And they do that by implementing ridiculous strategies based on the premise that women all have daddy issues, are rampantly insecure and so desperate for male attention that they’ll respond to any, any, attention at all (even if it’s negative).
Not to say that Cosmo isn’t the same thing- but I would hope the advice given by Wendy and other readers wasn’t on that level.
Anyways, the guy sounds like a bit of a tool and I think the LW shouldn’t waste any more time thinking about this.
Exactly. I think the key here is that the underlying philosophy deals in gender stereotypes, power plays, insecurities, and manipulation. I think the LW is bugged because it all kinda feels like trickery with a layer of male power on top, which would make me twitchy too.
It would totally make me twitchy- the problem is that if I was in the LW’s shoes, even if I parted with the guy amicably, I’d be going “oh my god, did he cheat on me while we were together? was I just another item to “collect”? was he ever genuinely interested in me? ” and totally obsess over it- hence my advice that she just needs to think “phew, dodged a bullet there!” and not give it any more thought. If she’s anything like me, that is.
They weren’t exclusive so how could he cheat?
Have you ever read the articles from AskMen? Have you ever read what DrLove writes? Believe me, they are NOT the same as Wendy.
Wendy gives legit advice based on her own experiences and those of her friends, and commenters can give their opinion/advice too. Those sites have a very poor community who prefer to insult and say things that have nothing to do with what the reader asked/what the PUA said.
Most of the times they also suggest guys to pretend to be something they are not, and give awful advice on how to get into a relationship, even worse advice on how to “keep your gf now that you have one”. Mos of this advice consists of telling guys they are stupid for not buying their books and whatnot. At least thats how it is on AskMen.
Hi!
I actually love reading PUA community blogs & forums. & I can TOTALLY tell when someone is laying PUA material on me, & I absolutely DIE to see the look on their face when I say, “ohhh, the neg – nicely nuanced, i’m impressed : ) but seriously i’m totally an LMR girl” LOLLLL
No hate; I think it’s interesting. All it says about Bill is he’s curious about improving his relationship skills. Like Will.I.Am said, it’s mostly trash, but it seems really helpful for building a little confidence : ) I have a LOT of male friends, & nearly all of them have done a little PUA reading (obvious from the jokes we all make). Most of those newsletter/twitter things are free, so I don’t think he spent a ton of money, though possibly he threw down for the coaching.
Now, off to delete my emails that are all like, “Capture his attention with a sexy voice” LOL or, “It’s not too late for you to marry!” hahahaha… these services – yes, which *I* have subscribed to – say little to nothing about my actual thoughts about relationships, beyond that I’m curious : )))
I agree. I feel like just because I read dear Wendy and comment doesn’t make me a therapist. It is just something I like to read. I feel like “courting” training is totally gone and people do not know how to date or socialize and so they go to anyone willing to teach them.
I first I thought she said “Greek guys with insecurities” instead of “geeky guys with insecurities”. I LOL’d in the middle of class. That is my only advice
Totally off topic … I love your little profile picture (I think they’re called gravatars, but I my brain is oatmeal this time of day). It made me smile that someone else has great GWTW taste like I do 🙂
Thanks! It’s an amazing book/movie/story in general. And Rhett Butler is so sexy
I’m gonna go with “tool” on this one. Have you ever seen that Mystery dude? The one who had a VH1 show called “The Pickup Artist” (at least, I think that’s what it was called) and wore those ridiculous pimp-like hats one usually finds at amusement parks and Halloween stores? Yeah, that dude. He was, and is, a total tool.
I’d hazard a guess that most “normal” dudes don’t need/care for the services of a pick-up artist. The reasons for following one and for being “into” that kind of community probably vary person to person. They could be totally insecure, awkward, nerdy, completely socially inept, fearful of women, misogynistic, a womanizer, douchey, toolish, etc. It depends on the dude.
That said, obviously this rubs you the wrong way. Maybe you’re a bit annoyed that you didn’t pick up on it earlier, or maybe you worry that he was just practicing his skillz on you. Don’t sweat it out. It’s over. Be glad you didn’t get any more serious. And in the future, now you probably know the signs to be wary of.
Personally, I think it probably bothers you that he’s so into picking up women, and so obviously uninterested in a serious kind of relationship. But that’s the nature of the game – It’s called “Pick Up Artistry,” not, “The Pursuit of Finding a Nice Woman to Settle Down With and Have a Long-Term, Meaningful Relationship With.” If the latter is the kind of mindset you want a dude to have, then be cognizant of that when you date in the future. If someone isn’t interested in a long-term relationship, the signs are to be found everywhere. Just tune yourself into them.
I have to disagree with you. We don’t know the extent that he used the Pick Up advice. Do I read Cosmo on road trips? Yes. Do I do horrible things to my husband while he drives just because I read about them? He wishes I did, but no.
From what she said about their relationship, he didn’t lead her on or pressure her into doing anything she didn’t want to at the time. She’s just worried now that maybe she never did want to date him. Maybe he made her THINK that she wanted to date him because he gets newsletters from a pick-up artist.
Do I think people who blindly follow Pick Up advice (and anything written in Cosmo) are tools? Yes, but we don’t know if he was one of them.
Of course I don’t know if he IS a tool, for certain. I’m speculating, based on the other kinds of dudes who read Pick-Up Artistry stuff to the extent that this guy does. Maybe he’s the nicest, most well-meaning, respectful, non-tool in the world. If so, then good for him. But that’s not where I’d put my money, if I were a betting woman.
I’d also argue that there’s a difference between being an avid reader of material (like Cosmo or Pick-Up Artistry) and being an avid participant. Sure, I read Cosmo. But I never do a fraction of what they suggest. From what she wrote, we can’t tell if he was just an avid reader or if he’s actually entrenched in the “lifestyle,” so to speak. I wrote my original advice assuming (maybe incorrectly) that he’s the latter. If he’s not, well there’s no harm done. It’s all in the past, anyway!
My only comment is that I giggle every time you use the word “artistry” alongside of “Pick-Up.” The contrast just cracks me up!
Haha I know, I just don’t know what else to call it. Grammatically, it seems to the only thing that flows.
Many of us read Cosmo (Although I can’t remember the last time I actively did…), but how many of us get text messages from Cosmo?
I think this guy was more than just reading the stuff for a laugh if he got text messages from some DJ Fuji character.
I’m with Regina… if I were a betting woman, I’d bet on this guy being a tool. Good riddance LW. Don’t give it another though.
I think there is alot of Envy with this stuff. I think alot of people buy into this stuff because they look from afar at guys night after night that seem to get the girls. My husband has alot of single friends, and we go out, they will make comments when surveying the bar, like “Why won’t a girl like that go out with me?” If for $9 a month, a text message will tell you the answer, I don’t judge.
She (LW) said he spent tons of money on it. That DJ Fuji guy charges a LOT! Did you follow the links? It sounds like more than just occasionally checking a forum.
A girl I work with spent $50 on an online book about getting her boyfriend back after he dumped her. People spend alot of money on stupid stuff.
That guy was a tool, because he was trying to manipulate people. Also, the nerds were stepping way outside of the comfort zone, but kept on doing it because they were getting some success. If you can accept your new you, then by all means change yourself.
Mystery was just a freak, and the women who fell for his game, were just as shallow as he was. A bullshitter can pick up on other bullshitters. All those types of shows are goofy and they tend to offer false hope for most people. The majority of “geeks” and “nerds” just don’t clean up that well.
So, once in a random burst of curiosity I read The Pick Up Artist to see what men will try. Its…bad. Its basically a how to guide on how to pick up girls willing to blow you in the bathroom of a club. Oh and its whole premise is that you have to treat a girl differently than what they expect. So, first you get their attention, but looking like an extra crazy douche bag or something, then you insult them. Like, you tell a girl her hair is ugly and apparently this turns women on. If a dude told me my hair was ugly I would probably punch him in the neck so maybe it only works for bar sluts. Either way the LW dodged a bullet.
LOL @ “tell a girl her hair is ugly”
um, sarah, please – it’s an ART; they’re pickup ARTISTS haha…
more like, “hey sexy, your hair looks crazy, like you’ve been up to no good…. ; ) i’m going to get you another drink & then i’d love to hear about your night so far” (yeah, i just made that one up — ahhh *brushes dirt of shoulders* i impress myself lol)
Omg, now I want to blow you in the bathroom of a club. WHY CAN’T I CONTROL THIS?
I think your pick up line was too nice though. I mean they really try to be assholes to women because pretty women will expect to be called pretty, I guess? Its just so stupid. You have to be really thick if after a guy tells you your eyes are too close together or something to go “Wow, he insulted me. Most men compliment me. He must be a SEX GOD.”
SInce I have watched that crazy Pick-Up Artist show because I am obsessed with crappy television… I can tell you the point of the insult (or the neg as someone referred to it earlier) isn’t just in the unexpectedness like “omg this guy insulted me, so different, now I am attracted to him”, it’s to put the girl on the offensive so she feels like she needs to win his approval… most people don’t like to be insulted, so they’ll try to counter to prove that they are attractive and so bada bing bada boom, the guy’s got her attention and now she’s trying to win him over instead of the reverse. Pretty manipulative, no?
Oh, oh, and the pick up guys NEVER buy a drink for a girl unless they’ve like made out with the girl or something first. Like the girls have to earn the drink first. Cheap F*ckers.
Those are the kind of lines that the shallow women would fall for. The over the top whit that screams creepy to me, but sexy to them.
Agree 100% Sarah! Any man that needs to follow a book is as silly as a woman that waits exactly three days before returning any phone calls (The Rules anyone? Everyone knows the rule is now 1 day – kidding). Paying someone a lot of money (that stuff ain’t cheap!) to teach you how to talk to the opposite sex screams loser. Let this guy go off and bone the girls who will fall for his fake crap. Be smart and never accept a guy who insults you as his opening line. However, I wouldn’t cut this guy out of a friendship though – you never know -even weasels might have gentlemanly friends. But I would not hook up with him!
As a point to the Cosmo mention: Cosmo costs 4$ and comes once a month. These texts come often, cost quite a bit more, and act as a constant guide in what to do – whereas Cosmo is pretty much a guide in what not to do.
Agreed.
At the risk of sounding short, if you don’t know much about the whole pick-up artist thing, then you don’t need to continue with “it doesn’t sound so bad to me!” Feel free to do some research and THEN develop an informed opinion about it.
Let’s start with pick up guys (PUAs they call themselves (the A is for artist)) rank every woman they see from 1 to 10. Does that sound ok? If she’s high enough, 9 or 10, then they use “negs” (negative compliment or something), which is saying stuff like “It’s so cute how you snort when you laugh!” or “You’re so tall!” It makes her self-conscious without being overtly insulting. There’s also some pavlovian thing where right after sex you talk about doors and act like you might leave her then in the future if you’re ever fighting you can mentions doors and she’ll get submissive and clingy (or so the pseudo-science behind all of this says).
It’s essentially manipulation, and I’ve never heard of anyone being in it for a relationship. Not saying its not possible, and not saying its not possible a guy could give all that crap up after meeting the right girl, but it’s a major red flag at the very least.
But if he said he didn’t want a relationship at heart then at least he was being honest with you, just take that to heart.
Or you aren’t even dating anymore? What do you care anymore?
Hahahahaha, how do you have a post-coital conversation about doors??
“Hey girl, thanks, that was really hot. So, I went to this amazing museum of doors the other day….”
That all sounds like manipulation. You are playing with the other person’s emotions to feed your ego. In the end, the artist is the one with all the insecurities.
Is this for real? You mention doors and the girl channels Pavlov’s dog and becomes submissive? There is no way. You mention door to me in a fight and I’m going to tell you don’t let it hit you on your way out.
I’m thinking it would be a bit of a red flag to me if a guy was talking about doors after sex. I mean, seriously? I don’t know anything about this Pick Up Artist thing, but I think I might do a little research just to be nosey.
How easy is it to mention doors? I cant honestly think of a way, let alone after sex!
Depends on the circumstance. Some guys literally don’t know how to approach women and will use this to help. Other guys want to use it to take women and get a BJ in a club bathroom.
I don’t think you can bucket every guy using this into one category – case by case basis.I’m guessing he is a hybrid of the two. Seems like he was in it for the long haul, but didn’t want a serious commitment. That or you were just “practice”…which I know sucks to hear, but he could have been using you to practice his interactions with women until he found the one he wanted to woo into a relationship.
To answer the above bewilderment I think insulting is a technique used to inspire extreme emotion – which can then be turned into lust if the guy plays his cards right afterwards…I’m guessing this technique focuses on women with low self-esteem which is why most women are scratching their heads when they read it thinking that is the worst advice ever.
Oh, this made me laugh. I have had a few guys try and pull this crap on me before. I’m 5’10 and all of them went right away “you are so tall” like the previous commenter noticed. The first time it happened, I thought the guy was an idiot and was like “okayyy.” I have a boyfriend so I shot him down but he kept at it until I literally walked away. The second time, my friend was with me and started cracking up because he was apparently laying all the lines verbatim on me. I knew something was up by then. J, my friend, told the guy that our boyfriends were into MMA and were coming to meet up (somewhat true, her boyfriend used to kickbox). His eyes bugged out and he retreated like crazy. Perhaps my favorite line ever to get rid of a creeper. Another good one is to start randomly mentioning babies. Anyway, Pick up artist isn’t so much confidence building as it is manipulative.
In the end, all men and women do run a small to fair amount of game. You have to have it to acquire a long-term relationship. PUA’s just seem to play the numbers game and it’s all about the quantity of women you interact with. I just don’t even understand how they fall for the lines, because they are just so cheesy. If a girl came to me with some whack lines like what the PUA’s use, she would be in for a rude awakening.
I much rather someone care about spending the time to talk to me and get to know me, then trying as hard as she can to get me to leave as quick as possible.
I don’t know anything about the Pick Up Artist Community (and I’m at work, so I don’t want to google it), but I don’t really see why any of this matters now since you’re not dating him. I can see bringing this up to your girlfriends over drinks at happy hour and getting a good laugh out of it, but I don’t really see the point in asking us about it….?
i think they are sooooo creepy!!! i’ve seen these articles before, and I always thought if I saw a guy was reading them I would RUN. im guessing they are just deeply insecure guys at best, at worst Misogynists. I don’t know anyone in real life who follows this stuff, however I’m sure most guys who do keep it really hush hush
I think you are spending too much time thinking and worrying about Bill.
I haven’t read the other comments yet, but my gut reaction was, “ICKY!!!!!!” It sounds like he was using you as “practice” or something!
EEEEWWW
I have been a follower of Ross Jeffries for about a year now.Yes most of his marketing is centered around getting girls into bed, which I admit is a bit sleazy and is designed to attract as many customers as possible.But my personal experience with his material is that its focused on building what is called ‘inner game’.I’ve seen major improvements in my confidence and appearence, I now have an active social life,just to mention a few of the benefits of inner game.Getting girls into bed is no longer a priority.Please don’t paint all PUAs with the same brush, some of them have changed my life in positive ways
Most average guys get reject 95 times out of 100 when they try and talk to girls, if this helps them improve the odds what is the harm?
Men attract women with how they say something, the content of what they say is usually doesn’t matter, seriously the nerdest guy with earth shattering info will have much less impact on a woman than the cool guy talk crap. Women attract men with how they look, how is it any different to a guy learning how to talk to women to a woman dressing to attract men?
Women who design their outfits solely to attract men are often thought of as slutty or whores by those same men (or other women) and give off a certain aura.
So if you design your speech to attract women, be prepared to be called sleazy and manipulative and give off an aura.
And we are speaking in crass generalizations here. I would much rather talk to a nerdy brain scientist than a cool guy who’s bullshitting me, provided the nerdy brain scientist is genuinely friendly and not (only) trying to get in my pants.
if you look at the sites the advice is not only how to talk to women, but how to have sex with them. The advice includes lying to women about the future (using ‘we will do this’ phrases), the “freeze out” (totally ignoring once they say, no sex) and insulting them. All so the guy can have sex and then forget the girl.
Right, but if it works, I blame the girl. I don’t blame the guy for trying.
I totally agree. I think there is a huge double standard. There is a multibillion dollar cosmetic industry built on being attractive. This guy spends money and is a perv. it is all the same.
I REALLY hope this is sarcasm. To me, the female equivalent of a PUA is a girl who acts like she wants to have a casual hook up with a guy but only uses him to buy stuff for her and then vanishes. I don’t see how hiding under-eye circles or make your lashes look longer is active manipulation and lying.
Dude. This thread TOTALLY explains my asshole ex-boyfriend! He was witty and charming and into me just enough to keep me interested, yet insulted my appearance (despite being very obviously attracted to me) and intelligence. When I wanted an exclusive relationship, much like the LW, we broke up. Of course, now- 3 years later- he’s emailing me again, telling me he thinks about me often and admitting that he treated our relationship something flippant, but that is neither here nor there.
By the way, PUA’s are disgusting. Sure, fine, they may help socially inept men gain a bit of confidence. But their GOAL is the get women to sleep with them by manipulation. And that is Not Cool.
Hi, I haven’t read through all the posts yet, so i’m not sure if anyone’s posted this already, but there is a book Neil Strauss called “The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists”. It’s shaped like a bible! How funny is that?! I used to work in this super Alpha male environment, and the book was passed around. I paged through it and it was nothing too interesting, until I was picked up by a guy and saw it on his nightstand! I went out to buy it the next day, and it’s a really easy, entertaining read. The guy I knew used the exact tactics in the book and of course, ended up being a total weirdo, but a friend he was with ended up dating one of my friends. This was years ago, and they’re still together 🙂
Anyway, if you’re interested in finding out more about it, I highly recommend reading it. Actually, I recommend all girls read it, just to spot these guys.
The only “experience” I have with pick-up artists was an episode of Criminal Minds I saw, and that guy was the Mayor of Douche Town.
Um, it’s just a guys version of THE RULES…or whatever stupid self-help book thousands upon thousands of desperate women foolishly rush out to buy in droves… Probably just about as (un) successful when it comes to landing the opposite sex, too.
nytie I have encountered that, it is a mysogynistic womanizer. I’m sure there are others, but that has been my experience-from alot of dating