I’m a 33-year-old woman and my boyfriend is 24 years old. We have been together three months so far. He’s a Scorpio and I’m a Capricorn. He wants to have a baby with me. He has two kids from a previous relationship. I don’t have any kids yet. What do I do? — Cautious Cap
Wait, he’s a Scorpio and you’re a Capricorn? Run! Also, it’s probably not a great idea to discuss babies with some guy you’ve only been with three months — a man who already has two kids at the age of 24.
I’m 19 and my boyfriend is 23 and we’ve been friends nearly three years and dating for several months. He works in the mines and I have been traveling a lot for work, so we haven’t lived in the same place. We have made plans to move in together next year and I’m so excited, but the one problem we have is when he comes up for a few days to visit he never any interest in meeting my parents. I have met most of his close family, but when I ask him to meet mine, he says: “Why would I want to? That’s just awkward?” My parents and older brothers are always hounding me about bringing him around and it’s not giving them a good first impression that he refuses to come. I’m not even asking for him to come around for dinner — only to pop in with me on our way past my place. How do I let him know how important it is to me for him to meet my family without being that naggy girlfriend? — Not Naggy
Pay attention to the message your boyfriend is very clearly giving you: he’s a jerk, and he has no interest in being a loving boyfriend to you if he can’t even be bothered to stop by your parents’ house on the way to your place. I mean, if he can’t even commit that most basic act of showing you he cares, DO NOT move in with him. If you do, it won’t end well, I promise you that.
I have been dating this guy for two months. We have excellent chemistry. In fact, it’d be hard for me to date again because of it, not that I’d want to anyway. The problem is, this guy moves at a snail’s pace and I think he’s starting to get comfortable and he doesn’t pay attention to me as much anymore. How can I get him to move more quickly? — Faster Than a Snail
What does moving too slowly at two months even look like? Has he not kissed you yet? Has he not told you his middle name? Do you not know where he lives? Just relax, enjoy getting to know each other, and quit trying to push this into relationship land
***************
Follow along on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads.
If you have a relationship/dating question I can help answer, you can send me your letters at wendy(AT)dearwendy.com.
wow, red flags waiving all around this friday morning!!
ok i have to threadjack here for a second, sorry- i woke up this morning from the weirdest dream! it was my friends wedding, the one that i am the maid of honor in, and i didnt have a dress. like everyone else was dressed up, including my own friends from high school (?), and i was in like jeans and a tshirt. so im like, bride, where is my maid of honor dress? and she is like, oh we didnt do them, just wear whatever. so the wedding is like about to start! and i am not dressed and she tells me there are no dresses. so i hear her fiance tell his friend to wear a red tie, and i think- oh! that red dress i just bought (that actually happened in real life), and i go to my house, which is literally next door to where the wedding is, and as i am trying to get ready my make is all fucked up. so i am in the mirror trying to fix it, but when i put a color on my eyes, it turns into a different color, so then i just totally screw up my makeup. and then i looked out the window, and i see my friend walking into the place, like its actually starting and im missing it- and then i see all my friends, again, but now they all have matching bridesmaids dresses on. i woke up so upset that i was missing the wedding. haha
That’s funny; I had a similar dream but it was about missing the food trucks outside my office. Just goes to show how we prioritize things differently, you and me, haha
haha.
well now im hoping that the astrology LW comes back and decodes my dream. maybe they are the same dream and we can get them both decoded!
I had a similar dream about missing one of my best friend’s weddings. Actually, I think today is her anniversary?
I think there is one token person in jeans at every wedding.
That was my brother at mine. Jeans and a t-shirt. At least they were “nice” jeans and not his ratty old ones.
Ouch! It was just a date of a friend at ours luckily, but we did attend a wedding last October where the twin brother of the bride showed up in hiking boots, ratty jeans, and a big puffer vest. (Totally a fine outfit, but it was a formal wedding!)
Oh isn’t that lovely. My brother did it to spite me because I told him no jeans… mostly because I was unaware that he owned any that weren’t full of holes.
One of my aunts wore jeans and a Georgia Bulldogs t-shirt to my wedding, and her husband wore jeans and a braves jacket. I wouldn’t have cared, but they were sitting in the very front, so we have sports logos in a lot of our photos.
Oh, that must be frustrating!
haha, well, i dont think i cared so much about wearing the jeans specifically, but it was more like that dread feeling of not being ready and rushing and then things messing you up.
also, i remember freaking out about shaving my legs when i remembered that i had that red dress- like my legs wouldnt have been shaved for the dress my friend was supposed to bring me? haha i dont know….
I went to a wedding one time where my husband and I were the token dressed up couple, (besides the wedding party that is). We weren’t even dressed up that much, business causal; he in kaki’s and nice shirt, me in a dress and low sandals. No one was being disrespectful, I think there just wasn’t a lot of money among family and friends and they wore what they could afford.
LW 1: Just time conception of your baby so that it will be a virgo. Zodiac signs are all that matter here.
LW 2: Have your family members hide behind the kitchen counters at your place, invite your bf over, and then BOOM, they come out and he has to meet them. This will teach your bf the meaning of “akward”.
LW 3: The mentioning of “excellent chemistry” and “moving like snail” conjured up all sorts of weird imagery in my head.
I like your suggestion to LW2; I’ll just add to that and say have your parents hide by the bed and jump out just as you start to make out! Then give is an update STAT! God please do this, for moi?
re LW2 – It’d be like a surprise party! Maybe have them put on the funny hats and definitely make sure there’s cake. Because, well because cake is awesome.
oh yes, the cake is very important and furthermore will smooth over the whole meeting process.
cake is magical like that.
Absolutely. My coworker is bringing me cake on Monday because I worked a full week for the first time in a month this week (vacation time is a wonderful thing)… although it will be half eaten because it is from her daughter’s birthday party. But I don’t complain about free cake.
Love the humor here, but honestly your suggestion to #2 isn’t necessarily that bad, if you remove the surprise part from it. Why can’t LW have her family and her BF visit at the same time? Or plan an outing, like, I don’t know, amusement park or something, that includes everyone. I wonder if BF sees it as some big-deal “Meet the Parents” thing when it doesn’t have to be like that. (That said, I think Wendy’s pretty accurate – if the Boyfriend’s words were exactly what the LW wrote, that’s a jerk thing to say and shows a lack of… respect? maturity? commitment? caring? I dunno… SUMTHIN.)
I love this comment so much, it made me spit out my coffee laughing!
You know I think I sorta understand where LW 3 is coming from. When you first start dating somebody and you’re both smitten and head over heels and both putting your best efforts always and thinking of each other constantly, it’s like you’re riding a high.
But that kind of thing doesn’t last forever. Once you get comfortable with each other, it’s normal for things to cool down and sort of fall into a routine, and if you’re an insecure person it’s hard to come down from that high without worrying that something is wrong.
The same sort of thing happened in the beginning with my boyfriend. After about 3 months the whirlwind romance died down and it did upset me. So I just said to my boyfriend, I miss how you used to text me goodmorning everyday, it makes me feel important to you. And he just said “I’m sorry babe, I’ll do better” and he did.
I think it’s just a matter of A) all relationships slowly slide out of that honeymoon phase into a more normal laid back rhythm and B) if there’s something in particular you need from your partner to feel like a priority, tell them!
great answer.
And you know, it’s not even in the beginning of relationships either. There are always highs and lows. I’ve been with my boyfriend for 3 years and this past winter we hit another amazing high that was hard to come down from.
He finally said out loud that he loves me (and for those who know my story they know that was a big deal) and we started talking about looking for a house together next year, and we were driving around neighbourhoods to see what kind of house we might want. It was like we were entering a new and exciting phase of our relationship where we decided together that yes, we both want to build a life together! And I was so excited and everything was all sunshine and rainbows.
Buy you know… life goes on and I lost my job and he had to study his ass off for finals and it was the first anniversary of his sister passing away, and we came down from that high back into the normal routine of life. Not to say that things are bad (definitely not) it’s just hard sometimes to snap back to reality after you’ve felt like you were living in a dream for a little while. And that was hard for me with my own insecurities, and I had to remind myself not to worry, not to let those insecurities take over.
Yay! He said it! 😀
Totally agree. And on the morning texts – Ever since pretty much day one, my husband has texted/emailed/said/left notes saying Good Morning Beautiful (which was also one of our wedding songs – we each picked one and had them smooshed together) and over 7 years later he still does it. It’s about the only sappy thing about us other than our nightly routine which consists of the last thing we say is “good night, I love you” no matter what.
That’s a totally legit thing that happens in relationships. Sometimes one partner is putting in more effort than the other and it goes back and forth like a tide. But I don’t get how he could be moving too slowly at 2 months.
I think that’s her insecurity talking.
Yeah. I posted a comment below about this, but I was thinking that maybe he was getting comfortable not having a relationship? Like maybe they were sleeping together and he wasn’t trying to make it progress into a real relationship?
Ugh, LW2….this quote: “Why would I want to? That’s just awkward?”….WTF? After knowing each other three years and dating for several months he can’t even do something as small as meet your family?….relationships are about give and take and equality, are you sure you want to be with someone who sounds extremely selfish?
It might not be 100% selfishness–he may also be scared or shy.
his wording makes it selfish: i don’t want to because it would be awkward….well sometimes we have to do things we don’t necessarily like….if the LW can meet his family it is only fair….did he not consider that when the LW met his family she might have felt nervous or shy or awkward….it also makes it sound like he never wants to meet them….i don’t know he sounds self involved to me, but just my opinion
Unless he has severe social anxiety, that would even be selfish. Plenty of people feel awkward or shy about meeting parents (or whoever else) but they do it because it’s something you have to do and it’s important to the other person. Simply refusing because you’re shy IS selfish. And this is coming from a person who is fairly introverted and who has a lot of shy friends.
“Why would I want to? That’s just awkward.”
“Because we’re through if you don’t.”
i don’t think i’d even want him meeting my family after saying something like that….geeze!
The first & last letter are so vague & out-there, I don’t even know what to address. But for LW2, your boyfriend is most likely not a nice person. And he isn’t someone you should want to commit to. “Why would I want to? That’s just awkward” is an inappropriate response to a meet-the-parents request (& I understand feeling awkward! I also understand sucking things up. Which sounds weird & dirty. Oops.)
But anyway, yeah. He should know better at 23 than to give that lame excuse. I feel like he’s counting on the 19-year-old to just accept it without question?
He doesn’t sound nice, but there’s a chance he didn’t say exactly that, but more something like. “I currently feel a bit awkward meeting your parents, why don’t we wait until we’re more serious?”
That’s a possibility, but I guess I’m not in a benefit-of-the-doubt mood today. I also have a feeling the LW really did quote him directly (it just sounds like something that would come out of someone’s mouth, you know?) I mean, I don’t think he’s the worst guy ever, but he sounds inconsiderate/jerk-ish at worst, ignorant of how to behave at best?
Yeah, I’m not sure why I’m defending him. I guess I see a possibility that he finds it awkward to just pop in quickly to say hello, so she would be better off by suggesting an actual dinner, which she apparently hasn’t done? But he’s probably a jerk.
Any guy I have ever dated that did not want to meet my Dad ending up screwing me over royally. Lesson learned there.
I dunno, if you’ve been friends for years, and dating several months with plans to move in together, to me that’s serious enough to meet the parents. To me, it would be weird to live with some guy my parents had never even met.
I think guys who don’t want to meet your parents when you’re at level in a relationship just know in the back of their mind they are going to end up hurting you, so they don’t want to meet the parents for that reason.
I think that would be a little weird just because they already made plans to move in together. I know some people misinterpret things, but I’d like to think that at least some LWs can see nuances in the way people speak and would know that’s different than what was quoted.
LW1 – Funny, those are the only things I considered when having a baby too! Actually, I considered nothing because it was an accident. Somehow I feel like I still planned better than you.
I’m confused about LW3. She said he moves “at a snail’s pace” which Wendy assumed to mean he’s moving slowly relationship-wise (as did I). But how is getting comfortable and paying less attention to her an issue in slowness? Isn’t it almost like he fast-forwarded to a later stage of the relationship? And LW’s question is how to make him move more quickly? I DON’T GET IT.
I read it as he’s moving like a snail in bed and getting really comfortable, and she can’t date ever again because she’s stuck under him, so he needs to move faster. But that’s my problem, not LW’s.
hahaha. I hope that’s what it actually is.
Just out of curiosity, all you [crazy] people that actually consider signs like they’re a thing, whether for real or fun: what do they say about capricorns v. scorpios? “Not compatible” is what I’m sensing from LW1 but what specifically? And I’m a sagitarious so what sign should my lover be if I want to make a super talented, super smart, super sensational kind of kid that will become rich and famous and take care of me for life? Spill it!
psh, everyone knows that the regular zodiac is bullshit. you have to look to the Chinese zodiac, thats the real one. the one on the placemats? that is how everyone finds their true love. duh.
^ says the dragon on the chinese zodiac, the strongest and bestest sign. *cough cough*
In Chinatown last weekend I was reminded that I’m a horse! Which I think is wayyy better than a dragon.
I taught my 6 year old niece to add “at school” at the end of her fortune cookie fortune. … When she’s older I’ll tell her what you’re really supposed to add.
That’s awesome Addie.
well supposedly the dragon is the best because they say its the best. like, two years ago or something was the year of the dragon, and people had been waiting for it to get married and have kids, its like a big deal.
The thing that always bothered me about Chinese astrology is that it goes by YEARS. So it’s not individualized at all? Like everyone born within certain years have the same fortune & personality traits, I guess?
I have a birthday book somewhere that actually does astrology based on every day of the year (so you just look up your birthday). I remember getting a lot of enjoyment out of that.
Also, shut up everyone, I’m only into it slightly, & only for fun!!
haha oh i know- everyone born in my birth year is amazing. duh.
the whole thing is crazy, BUT i agree slightly fun. i have read though that the things they attribute to the different signs are either the same things worded differently, or just things that apply to literally every person.
Suuuure Fab.
Personally, I follow the Mayan Zodiac. Also–I’m a dragon too Katie. OBVS we’re superior 😀
The Chinese zodiac has three signs: year, month, and hour of birth. I forgot which sign is referred to as what, but the month sign is used to determine love, relationship style, and compatibility. I have a book on it somewhere…
Well, I’m a Rabbit, and according to female pop mythology, that’s the best brand of vibrator out there so… I win?
How about “on the toilet”? That ending always makes me laugh.
I’m a horse, too! My wife is a tiger, and some time after we’d been married we saw the placemat confirming that we are very compatible. So, win! But I am sometimes distracted by the image of me as a horse trying to bang a tiger.
Based on google- the two signs are opposites. Sagittarius is out going while Capricorns are introverts. But they are supposed to have great sex.
Sagittarius’ just have great sex period. Always.
I agree 😉 (My husband is a Sagittarius… I’m a Leo and Leos are just all around awesome).
I’m a Leo too!! We are flipping awesome.
Attention Scorpio boyfriend: your girlfriend believes in astrology. Run!
LW3: I’m also not really sure what your problem is because you’re really vague. I was assuming you meant that maybe you felt this guy was getting comfortable in the pre-relationship stage and things weren’t progressing quickly enough.
But it’s important to stay grounded, especially in the early stages of a relationship. That means not deciding after two months that you’d have trouble dating anyone else or that you wouldn’t even want to date anyone else again. I get really liking someone, but especially if you’re having trouble figuring out if he even wants a relationship, then you need to calm down and not put him on a pedestal.
Scorps and Caps just don’t get along. Water + earth = mud. Now, if you told me he was a Pisces or a Cancer, I’d say go for it. Seriously, what the hell? Two kids at 24 and he’s only known you three months? I know we Scorpions have a high sex drive but does he have to impregnate everybody? Run. Now.
I’m a Capricorn and have been married to a Scorpio for 19 years, really happily. Exceptions that prove the…
(agreed about the drive. yum!)
This was said partially tongue-in-cheek. There are many factors at work and there are always exceptions. I am currently interested in an Aquarius and we are not supposed to get along. Yet we do.
It’s Friday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LWs, nothing to add that hasn’t been said. Just wanted to write out a little Friday happy dance =) Friday Friday Friday Friday!!!!! Also, I had coffee this morning.
Do people still put ANY stock in astrology? Really???
Phrenology’s my pseudoscience, and I oughta know because I’ve got a bump on my head that means I’m smart. Not like everyone says.
I really want to know what a “snails pace” is. I didn’t know GGuy’s birthday until more than 2 months into dating. But we had sex way before that…so yeahhhhh
My boyfriend and I are incompatible.
He’s a Taurus.
And I don’t believe in bullshit.
(An oldie but a goodie. Had to include it since no one else said it yet.)
Aww poor letter writer #2….wake up honey. “Why would I want to? That’s just awkward.” Come on now.
LW1: If after 3 months you aren’t already pregnant, he must not be as into you as you thought.
LW3: Same advice.
LW2: He doesn’t respect you enough to take an interest in your life/friends/family. MOA
Just have to say that it makes me sad to hear so many people trashing on astrology so hard. I don’t believe every bit of it, but I think it does have some merit. Astrology has been used for thousands of years, and there are a lot of spiritual and cultural factors at play. Obviously you don’t have to believe in it, but can we not act like someone else’s beliefs are idiotic please?
Yeah, I happen to think Astrology is fun. Do I live my life by it? of course not, but you might hear me say something offhand IRL about it. I’d be pretty put off if somebody took that as an opportunity to be all, “Astrology is BULLSHIT! rAWRR!”
Yeah, it’s just rude to say that about a person’s beliefs. Personally I think the personalities are true. Most people I know fit into their signs pretty well, and I can frequently guess what a person’s sign is before knowing. I don’t follow horoscopes though (especially not daily or weekly) because I think they’re too short term and specific to be reliable. Stuff like compatibility is useful though, IMO.
What sign do you think I am?
I’d guess Virgo.
Nope. Try again! This is fun.
Haha, I don’t know you IRL so I have no idea!
But from what you know of me on here. Its pretty much how I am in real life, mostly at least.
Okay, I’m going to guess Sagittarius then.
Nope.
So I’m curious now what they are typically like…why you would think I was that. I hope its not bc they are typically assholes, haha 🙂
I guessed that because they typically love their freedom, and they’re truth-seekers. They like to ask a lot of questions to find the truth to something like it’s their personal mission to do so. Take our conversation here as an example. You’re always playing devil’s advocate and hearing every side to a story, and occasionally you just say that you agree with everyone. haha
Oh that does sound like me! So there, I’m a Sag.
That’s kinda what I was getting at earlier, that of course I’ll want to read the description and see the good parts and say, Oh, that IS how I am! There are parts about my actual sign that I can say that IS just like me, but I feel like if I mashed them all together, I could say the same about all of them.
Haha, So what is your actual sign then?
Aries. “curious, energetic and enthusiastic individuals, who want to initiate and make things happen rather than being mere spectators. The need for excitement push them into new territories”
So here, I could agree with most of it, but the last par? No way. I hate new territories. I hate change. And I’m really not all that exciting, haha. But the making things happen? Sure, I totally agree with that. Energetic, not really. Curious, sure.
This reminded me. Did you ever take the personality test? Can’t think of the name. Meyers something,maybe?
My mom and brother did and they seemed totally spot on.
Aries is kind of surprising. And yeah, I’ve taken the Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator probably a dozen times and have always gotten the same result. I’m an INTP, and I think Cats said she was too. That’s spot on for me. Have you taken it?
No, I keep meaning to.
I don’t like Meyers Briggs. I end up not liking my description because a couple of my either/or things are really close. Like, I think I favor introvert over extrovert by 11% or something. The other day when there were buzzfeeds going around about introverts and extroverts, I totally *got* both lists.
@Rachel, I definitely get that. Although I feel like INTP fits me really well, the P part is only a slight percentage more, and I fit INTJ decently well too. I usually read both descriptions if I go to read something about it.
I totally fit my sign! I believe there is some truth to them, but not necessarily the day to day stuff. If that makes sense. But yeah, I’m totally on bored with not trashing others.
I do too. When people hear I’m a Leo, they’re like “ooohhh… that explains it” and I don’t know if they mean it as a compliment, but it’s how I take it.
haha, I get that too! And my husband is a completely stereotypical Scorpio. You could spot it across the room.
I want to play!! What do you think I am?
I don’t believe in astrology (but I’m an atheist, so I don’t believe in anything) but I DO think systems for organizing the cosmos are fascinating and I wish we had more information about New World Astrological systems. Cahokia and Chaco Canyon both had complex astrology that we just don’t know about, and I wish there was more info about them!
I am SUCH a cancer. I don’t believe the day to day horoscopes, but I believe years and longer trends. And I think the analysis of couples by sign usually matches up. If you read a cancer and virgo description (me and my boyfriend) it fits us.
I didn’t really think this was a belief. Does that make sense? Like, I didn’t think people out there were actually really believing and following and living their life according to it.
It seems a lot like any of it can be applied to anyone. Like tarot cards or psychics.
Tarot cards and psychics are real beliefs too, LBH…
I just mean that I feel like most are scammers and any of their “advice” or whatever you call it can be applied to anyone. Would you disagree that most or many psychics are full of shit scammers?
I realize I’m on thin ice with the discussion and probably sound hypocritical, and I’m sorry if I really am coming across that way.
My stance on that is that most paid psychics probably actually have ability but they’re so concerned about having repeat customers that they leave out the bad stuff and play up the good stuff in the readings to a point that you can’t trust it. My only paid tarot card reading was back in March, and all of the good stuff was spot on, even down to details. She completely left out all the bad stuff in my life though, and I was in a major bad luck streak at that point. I think it’s untrustworthiness in the sketchy used car lot kind of way rather than a completely untrue kind of way. I completely trust friends with it though, and I’m buying a deck myself with birthday money I just got.
And no, you don’t sound hypocritical. I don’t think you would judge someone’s beliefs like that intentionally. I think it’s just part of our culture to dismiss anything spiritual that’s not a major religion like Christianity and that can’t be proven by science.
Like what exactly was spot on? Was it really something that you didn’t spin a little in your direction, or that couldn’t be spot on for many people in many situations?
Thanks for being understanding of my admitted weirdness about not believing this, but believing in God. I guess I’ve just always separated the two.
First, I took my engagement ring off when I went in just to see what she would say about my love life, because I was skeptical of her trustworthiness. She knew I was getting married soon anyway, and she made some predictions about specific financial things that were going on in my life that did happen. I don’t remember much of it at this point, but she made accurate predictions of the good things for the couple of months after the reading. I wouldn’t go back to her though because I don’t think she gave me my full reading of the bad stuff.
She also gave my friend some really specific readings about good things in her life and completely glossed over most bad things. I really don’t remember anything about her reading though.
I occasionally do my own tarot card readings, too (speaking of!) One time I did my boyfriend’s, & it was the WORST reading ever. Like, basically said he was going to lose his job, & his love partner (which is me…) And with tarot, you usually can spin things more positively, but the deck I had gave really specific descriptions for each card (& placement). And it was all bad, haha. I think I traumatized him.
Good word…spin. I feel like you can spin most of those results to fit your needs.
Haha, I had a tarot card reading once for funzies at a bar. I was asking about my decision to quit my job and be a full-time student. I’m prrrretty sure that I got a really “bad” reading but he tried to put a positive spin on it so as not to discourage me. I can’t for the life of me remember what cards/placements I got, but shortly after I did some googling and I was like…. oh crap.
It’s hilarious (to me) that most who mock astrology the loudest all steadfastly believe wholeheartedly in Jesus or whatever… Though, really, the anecdotal evidence of the power of the stars is, in fact, significantly stronger… Hell, even cynical (young) me is often amazed whenever I read horoscopes in old magazines retro-actively…
Haha, fair enough, which is what my comment above was trying to get at. I guess I just disconnecting religions and things like tarot cards and horoscopes? Idk. Its an interesting discussion at least, about something I really don’t understand.
I think that’s a major cultural problem, so I’m not blaming anyone for doing it. Just trying to say that we shouldn’t. Religion is respected in our culture (as long as you’re the right religion), but spirituality isn’t. Even within otherwise respected denominations, when someone brings out something spiritual in worship, that part of it is rejected. That’s a major mistake in my opinion. I think we’re suffering spiritually when we blindly reject things that we can’t prove or read directly out of a book. As a culture I think we devalue our own spiritual experiences and even try to downplay them. We ridicule, mock, and even suggest that a person’s spirituality is in direct conflict with their intelligence or with their religious beliefs.
It’s interesting, to me, because I don’t believe any of it. It doesn’t seem any more silly to me to say that the stars predict behavior than it does to say that an invisible man created humans in his image. But it’s definitely more *okay* for me think your beliefs are silly than LBH’s. I guess it’s just because you’re outnumbered, and people are afraid of what’s different. I even noticed it when I was a kid going to church. We usually went to pentecostal churches, and people spoke in tongues. That was normal to me. Once we went to a baptist church when I was, oh 12 or so, and the pastor specifically said something about how people who were pentecostal had interpreted some bible passage wrong, and he clearly looked down on them for it.
The Pentecostal thing was exactly what I was thinking about! In every religion there are people who delve deeply into spirituality and *gasp!* magic. Those people are usually looked down on by other members of the religion. Which is kind of contradictory since in Christianity you’re encouraged to bond with the Holy Spirit, but you’re only supposed to do that in certain ways.
I think I read in euro or world history (or something like that) that Catholic priests spoke put against “witches” and magic because women in small communities would make potions and do other magic-y things which took power from the male priests. Supposedly at some point only priests could practice magic because of this. I could definotely remember this wrong, but sounds plausible.
Also, my great grandmother was a soothsayer. Not sure what that entails but it sounds cool. Kind of odd since my grandmother is very Christian.
Thank you!!
I’m with you.
Astrology probably has more of a chance of being real than half the religions out there.
um, i mean, hasnt it been like scientifically proven that its not real…?
Science has never proven that Jesus is real, but people believe in that all the time. Not everything has to be scientific. Spirituality frequently isn’t.
well, ok- i put both of them on the same playing field, first off. and secondly, jesus was real and we know that, everyone just disagrees about the many times over translations of what he actually was/did/ect.
i mean, like, this week, researchers observed a super super heightened wave of brain activity during cardiac arrest that no one had known about previously. thats most likely where near death experiences come from. i think that science actually can explain a lot of stuff, we just dont know enough yet- and we ABSOLUTELY dont know enough about our own brains and our subconscious, to fully understand it yet.
I completely agree with that. I don’t refute that science can get involved with these things, but just because science hasn’t yet doesn’t mean it’s not real. And even if something ISN’T real that doesn’t give us the right to mock a cultural and/or spiritual belief.
ok, but back to my original point…. i thought science HAD gotten there with astrology already..?
I don’t know if it has or not, but like I said, there is more to life than what humans can find and prove. Not to mention that science produces conflicting studies all the time, so I don’t take any one study to be the final word. I also don’t think anyone’s going to fund much research on this subject.
I’m no expert, but I think this is one of those subject where you can find a dozen studies that says it’s real and a dozen studies that says it’s not.
That’s the thing. If you can disprove something, then its disproven. If you can’t prove something, its not necessarily disproven. Semantics I guess.
Well we have scientific theories of creation, but people still believe in biblical creation stories. And just to make another point about semantics: Nothing in science is ever considered “proven.” It’s more just the strongest evidence at the time leans one way. Even gravity is called a theory.
But they are theories. Not facts. No one has proven how the world came to be, which leaves it open for saying maybe God created it, especially since no one can prove otherwise.
Exactly! That’s what I’m saying about astrology too.
But katie said they have been proven false (again, no clue if thats true). So that’s what I was getting at. If its been proven that astrology is fake, then it is. But you can’t prove that God is fake, so he might be real, therefore, easier and more logical (?) to still believe in that. So if astrology has been proven fake, how can it be easy to believe?
Also, I appreciate you going back and forth with me on this. Its interesting and I hope you’re not taking it as me saying my possibly fake beliefs are RIGHT and yours are dumb and silly.
What!? The planets and stars have ALL been proven to exist. For starters, you can actually see them. God? Not so much…
But how can you disprove an entire body of knowledge? You can’t. You would have to do it piece by piece. Just this week (or last week?) there was a study saying that the moon affects our sleep, which was previously considered ludicrous astrology by the scientific community.
Well, duh, stars and planets are real. Haha. I mean the belief that they control something…astrology.
@LBH, I don’t take it that way from you at all. Also, I’m not fully 100% sold on all aspects of astrology myself. I’m mostly just saying that it’s a real belief system and that people should respect it as such. I like debating it, but ultimately I don’t think there’s an answer to it.
Oh, ta, I have no clue. I was just going off on what katie said-that its been proven false. I’ve never really learned anything about it before.
Thanks 🙂 I agree. And like I said, I can’t sit here and say respect my beliefs but yours are silly (not that I think they are, I just never looked at astrology the same as I would religion). If I expect respect from you, then I have to respect you saying you believe anything that hasn’t been disproven.
@LBH some people would ague that there are studies that prove God doesn’t exist. So yeah, I think it’s important to just respect different belief systems (so long as they don’t hurt others) even if you don’t understand them.
And no one can deny the moon patterns change the tides so there is definitely some freaky stuff in space affecting us.
Thanks 🙂 I appreciate that! I think there’s some confusion because when you look at a religion like yours, it’s fairly easy to see what is and isn’t included in it. When it comes to less organized belief systems, like people who identify as “just spiritual” or pagans who frequently pick and choose some things out of an enormous body of potential beliefs and rituals. It’s especially confusing when individual practices (like tarot cards or astrology) are taken out of their religious/spiritual/cultural context and used on their own. Most mainstream exposure to it is more of the slumber-party, girls night out variety where the people actually practice other more established religions.
P.S. – Sorry for the rants. I’m spending hours every day studying this stuff right now.
GG, that’s exactly what I just said.
TA, very interesting topic. Thanks.
LBH our posts must have crossed in cyberspace, yours wasn’t there when I typed mine in!
I HAAAAATE to be this person again, but while there is debate about what sparked our planet’s ability to maintain carbon based life, science has pretty much solidly proven how life on Earth came to exist. Evolution, or the modification of traits over time at the genetic level is not a theory the way we use the word theory in the vernacular. In science Theory is pretty much objective truth. Theories are made up of repeatedly proven hypotheses. Saying gravity is “just” a theory is technically incorrect. It’s more like “Gravity is a Theory, so there is no point in arguing against it. Use it in all of your calculations because the Theory of Gravity explains how things stick to the planet, and it’s pretty much not changing”
I have to teach introductory anthropology and we have this discussion every semester before we jump into human evolution.
haha, NM, i love that you are that person.
that needed to be said, thank you.
@NM, No one used it that way. I was just saying that to parallel my point that you never say that something is 100% “proven.”
Hahaha, NM. You mean the Creation Museum is BS?? I’m going to go cry now.
My question is, smartypants, where did the shit that exploded in the first place come from? Isn’t the whole big bang that a bunch of space trash collided or something and exploded to randomly create earth? Well where did the space trash come from?
TA- yes, they are proven. thats the entire point of science. you figure something out, tell other people about it, they do it, if they get the same results, it IS proven. it is a proven theory. we still call them theories but established scientific theories are facts that have been proven, time and again, by different people.
Well that’s a disagreement on semantics. Either way, there’s not scientific theory that astrology isn’t real. Maybe there’s evidence, but it’s not overwhelming.
Sorry, TA, I must have misunderstood what you meant by ” It’s more just the strongest evidence at the time leans one way. Even gravity is called a theory.”
Sorry!
Hypersensitivity to the subject….it happens after 6 semesters of human evolution classes
oh and GG–I LOVE the creation museum. As an anthropologist I think creation mythos of all sorts are fascinating and I could spend hours reading about them and talking about them and listening to people. As a science educator, they make me sad.
And I don’t know where the space dust and junk comes from. My research, scholarship, and teaching all focuses on the Earth after life happened, but I bet there’s a few hypotheses. I’m a big fan of the phrase “science doesn’t know YET”
No, it’s okay. I get it! I’m pretty quick to point out things like that too, and I admit that it sounded like that sort of line of thinking. That’s just not how I meant it. I promise I’m not an anti-science freako, even though this conversation probably sounds like it. I’m actually pretty dependent on science and usually argue with people who don’t accept it.
Basically I’ve just been trying to say that there are things that are missed by science, things that can’t be explained (yet), and that our information changes over time and is rarely solid enough to even call it a theory. If someone had used the scientific method to research human flight in the 1400s, they would probably have said it was impossible, ya know?
I’m fascinated by creation talk too.
I’m sure there are hypotheses but since none are proven yet, I choose to use the space trash as a foundation for my belief in God. The trash had to get there SOMEHOW right? It’s the only thing that makes sense to me. After that, evolution all the way baby. If science can prove me wrong one day, I’m all ears.
I will say, that SCIENCE probably won’t explore Astrology ever. Astrology is a belief system, and good science doesn’t really delve into that. It might look at astronomical correlates between natural factors that have an impact on behavior, but no one will ever be able to produce a replicable experiment that tests the hypothesis “All Scorpios behave this way because of the influence of Jupiter in the rotation of Aquarius (I’m sorry, clearly I know nothing about astrology)”
I do wonder though, if there is something about when you’re born and the amount of UV you’re exposed to as a baby or gestationally, or what food is available seasonally to your mother or things like that that might create the trends described by astrology.
@NM, Yes! That’s what I tried to say at some point up the thread too. No one is going to study that enough (if at all) to say anything substantial about it. Great point about the UV exposure though. That would be really interesting. And in that case, people should have different personalities geographically. And then we could get into cultural factors and try to pick apart what’s the time of the year vs. longitude vs. culture. Or maybe culture comes from UV exposure? Omg, you made my head explode!
I’m ready for an adult beverage.
TA, I am basically just exploring this the way my boyfriend and I do with preeeeetttyyy much everything we read. He is WAY more science literate than I am too.
It may be why I drink so much.
I’m having a beer, y’all should too!!
Oh! I should add that ordering the cosmos is usually like priority numero uno in culture, so the influence of at least the sun and moon are always observable in cultural studies. My totally untested hypothesis is that when you examine astrology from your own culture–the definitions make more sense. The farther you go from your own culture’s zodiac, the harder it is to find the parallels to yourself.
Though my UV hypothesis is WAY more fun.
GG, it’s only 11:30 here, but because it’s your birthday and I want to, I will have a beer at the strike of noon.
Oh right, you non East Coasters. But yes please have a beer at noon! I’ll be on number two by then! Yay birthday drunk!
I also think this is the appropriate place to say, “I’m not saying it was Aliens. But it was Aliens”
i think its very fascinating too. i wish the creationist people werent so militant with everything, though, and maybe we could have real discussions about this stuff!
the science that i did find about astrology- “The study began in 1958 to track the lives of 2000 infants born within minutes of each other. If astrology has merit, the scientists postulated, the lives of each infant ought to bear resemblance to one another. Fifty years later, the research concludes the individual’s lives are completely unique and not a single prediction could accurately have forecast any outcome. Adding insult to injury, additional testing showed that given a birth chart and the life history of subjects, professional astrologers could not match the two for any of their subjects with any sort of accuracy better than randomly guessing.”
as for different factors having effects on people in-utero, oh that is such interesting science. like, for instance, the more older brothers a male has, the higher rate of that younger male being gay. it has to do with the mother forming anti bodies to male hormones, and as she keeps having boy fetuses, the anti bodies grow stronger and stronger.
Some actually disagree strongly. If astrology is used as a basis for decision making and leads to bad decisions it must be fought. This is what the BadAstronomer argues: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html#harm anyway.
The Amazing Randi is also fighting it (with $1,000,000 to anyone who can prove it works)
It might be polite to respect someone who believes into something that is provably false or wrong but letting these belief stand isn’t doing anyone any favor. Of course something has to be proven wrong, not something that is easy or trivial but in the case of astrology anyways that has been pretty much been done.
Katie, I’ll have to link you to it… I saw a video where science tentatively explains how ESP could be an actual thing, because our brains do put out waves that other “receptacles” can receive, we’re just not sensitive to it yet. My thought is that as we evolve (if we don’t kill ourselves off first), that “sixth sense” may become more heightened, if it helps us communicate with each other. But it was really interesting.
Also here’s my stoner thought for the day, which I think came out of the same video series…
1) Humans trying to understand atoms is really just atoms trying to understand themselves.
2) The brain named itself.
Whoooooooaaa….duuuuude….
Here’s the YouTube channel where these videos live. Check out the one with Bill Nye and the Asteroid, very entertaining and nostalgic for us 80s/90s kids.
Most of them are pretty short, and everything is explained and illustrated so you don’t have to be super science-literate to get it.
No, it doesn’t have merit. Astrology groups people into personality types based on one single factor- their date of birth, and then commences to dispense life advice that purports to be tailored to these seemingly different groups of people through laughably transparent, generally applicable language. It’s easily debunked and not the same thing as a complex set of religious beliefs. It’s ridiculous. If you’re talking about something more complex or nuanced than that, then maybe I’d hear it out. But that simple monthly breakdown is exactly what most are railing against when they trash astrology, and rightfully so since in my experience that certainly is what a lot of people actually believe in. It’s actually kind of shocking.
That is incredibly rude and short-sighted.
How is it short-sighted?
Oh and also, from the wikipedia page for astrology:
Astrology has been rejected by the scientific community as having no explanatory power for describing the universe. Scientific testing of astrology has been conducted, and no evidence has been found to support any of the premises or purported effects outlined in astrological traditions.[5]:424 There is no proposed mechanism of action by which the positions and motions of stars and planets could affect people and events on Earth that does not contradict well understood, basic aspects of biology and physics.[7][87] :249
Popper proposed falsifiability as that which distinguishes science from non-science, using Astrology as the example of an idea which has not dealt with falsification during experiment.
The majority of professional astrologers rely on performing astrology-based personality tests and making relevant predictions about the remunerator’s future.[88]:83 Those who continue to have faith in astrology have been characterized as doing so “in spite of the fact that there is no verified scientific basis for their beliefs, and indeed that there is strong evidence to the contrary”.[89]
It has also been shown that confirmation bias is a psychological factor that contributes to belief in astrology.[90] :344[91] :180–181[92] :42–48 Confirmation bias is a form of cognitive bias.[a][93]:553 From the literature, Astrology believers often tend to selectively remember those predictions which have turned out to be true, and do not remember those predictions which happen to be false. Another, separate, form of confirmation bias also plays a role, where believers often fail to distinguish between messages that demonstrate special ability and those which do not.[91]:180–181 Thus there are two distinct forms of confirmation bias that are under study with respect to astrological belief.[91]:180–181
BGM’s blanket advice? You all need to stop living in Fantasy Land. Or is it Desperation Land? The Land of Deludedly Wishful Thinking perhaps? At any rate, just stop. Oh, and condoms. Condoms!! CONDOMS!!!
condoms. Condoms!! CONDOMS!!! needs to be a bumper sticker.
Haha, this reminded me of the Golden Girls episode where Dorothy was trying to subtly hint to Rose that they should buy condoms for their vacation or something, and Rose, being Rose, didn’t get it, so Dorothy gets frustrated and yells “Condoms, Rose, condoms, condoms!” and a guys says “Geez, lady, you just get outta prison or something?”
LW1: Don’t have kids with someone you’ve only been with for three months. Even if your clock is ticking and you feel like time is running out, don’t do that to your kid. Wait until you’re stable with someone, which probably means being with someone who realizes that a kid deserves more from his parents. Or break up with him and have a kid on your own if you want one that badly. Do not do this.
LW2: That’s a huge red flag. I’m wondering if he even thinks you’re officially together. That’s just ridiculous and disrespectful. Do not put up with that crap. Tell him that he has to be involved in your life or you’re gone.
LW3: What?
I find it really embarrassing how many otherwise smart women (and yes in my experience it’s always women) are really into astrology. You can’t even make jokes about what horseshit it all is in polite company, because indubitably someone in the group will be really into it and offended that you think it’s a steaming pile of turds.
No, you can’t make jokes about something people BELIEVE in and expect to get away with being rude. Obviously.
Meh, if people thought that a comet was coming to take them to heaven so they wanted to participate in a mass suicide I’d let it be known I thought that was ridiculous too. Not all beliefs warrant an equivalent level of respect. Just because someone believes something doesn’t mean I have to respect that belief. If you believe in creationism, I would find that ridiculous. I may not call it horseshit to your face, but I’m not going to give equal deference to every thought other people have because they label it as their “beliefs”. That so PC it’s kind of dangerous.
You echo my sentiments on Christianity exactly, @HmC.
… look, you can argue against supernatural beliefs all you want. And in doing so you are undoubtedly going to offend someone. But calling people’s beliefs “embarrassing” and “horseshit” and “steaming pile of turds” is not a productive way to do it.
I am virulently atheistic, but astrology makes more logical sense than Christianity. Really. So hold the hate, lady.
Agreed. I’m not really sure what about religion sounds more believable than astrology.
I guess what I really don’t understand is why a person would feel such a great need to tell someone their beliefs are a “steaming pile of turds.” Like I’m not a Christian, but I have no desire to start trashing the religion. I’m not really sure of the purpose or appeal? And it’s pretty standard that if you call someone’s beliefs horsehit, they’re going to be offended.
As I said, I specifically talking about people who believe that their personality is shaped by their birth month, and they take advice based on their sign seriously. That is what I find horseshit. And I wasn’t trying to make a productive comment about it. I was sharing how I honestly feel about it. And if you truly base your life decisions on your sign, like who you date, then yeah I think that’s ridiculous. I view religion and spirituality as something entirely different. Yes there are people with religious beliefs that I find ridiculous (a comet is coming soon so we should commit mass suicide so we’re on it!). Religious beliefs are not all the same, and I allow that maybe there are forms of astrology that make more sense than a simple breakdown of personalities based on birth month. But that’s not what I’m talking about because it honestly isn’t what I’ve seen. What I’ve seen is otherwise intelligent women pouring over astrology readings that are in every women’s magazine. That’s what I find illogical and embarrassing.
Also, how exactly does astrology make any kind of logical sense? How is the month you are born logically/scientifically connected in any way to the things that form someone’s personality? People keep saying it’s more logical than religion but I haven’t seen any explanations of how. I’m genuinely asking.
I don’t know, I wouldn’t be shocked if someone determined that environmental (sunlight, weather, moon phases, etc.) and societal factors related to when a baby was born/developing had some effect on their personality. I’ve seen articles about studies on that, though I’m not claiming them to be reputable.
I, however, would be much more shocked if I found out if a person who had been killed and put into a tomb was brought back to life and therefore saved a large portion of the population from living in a fiery, awful place for eternity, which is ruled over by an angel who had a falling out with an all-knowing being (that we can’t see or prove exists) that created the universe.
I’m not trying to mock Christianity. I personally don’t believe, but it doesn’t bother me that other people do. But even a lot of Christians acknowledge that you have to have A LOT of faith to believe all this stuff is true without any scientific proof (I mean, the religion even seems to really embrace that idea, that you prove your devotion by having faith). So, I’m not sure what makes it (or any other religion) so much more believable than astrology.
I think a lot of it is that you’re holding astrology up to scientific standards and religions up to something else. Because for a person who doesn’t believe in either (and who thus holds them up to similar standards), neither one comes across as that much more plausible than the other.
(I agree, though, that the stuff in the women’s magazines is stupid, because you know that some editor somewhere just wrote that crap up in half an hour.)
I can only speak for myself, but I don’t hold religion and astrology to different standards. I genuinely believe that science is not mutually exclusive with many religious beliefs that I respect. If you’re just going to compare one particularly unbelievable aspect of one religion to astrology than I’d probably agree with you that it’s about on par with astrology. There are many so-called religious beliefs that I find equally ridiculous as astrology. But much of what people deride as a religious belief I would personally regard more as superstition or cult-like behavior and I’m not on board with that any more than I’m on board with astrology.
My disrespect in regards to astrology is exactly the crap in women’s magazines that you referred to, and that’s what my comments here are referring to. And it embarrasses me as a woman that so many women are so into that shit. I actually would be really interested in science showing that babies born in certain climates or certain times of the year are affected by things in utero that can alter personalities. I would find that fascinating! Actually I think I read something once about how babies born in the spring have a much higher suicide rate as adults, something about the mother being exposed to heat at a certain point in her pregnancy that affects the baby or something? But a month by month breakdown, that attributes a long list of personality traits, that you then claim to see in people because they are a scorpio or cancer or whatever? No, I do not respect that as a belief system. And as scattol pointed out, it has been scientifically debunked.
Yeah, I guess for me it’s just that I don’t have any religious beliefs that I really hold to be true. I went to church for 10 or so years growing up, and stopped because I couldn’t make myself believe that any of the stuff had actually happened. The reason I chose that specific example was that I was trying to choose something that was central to Christianity, instead of something that could be considered a parable. (Like I felt like if I talked about some other biblical event, then someone would be like, “Duh, nobody believes that ACTUALLY happened.” I’m not up on what’s considered real or not these days.) Anyway, my point is that I didn’t choose it solely to pick something particularly unbelievable, but also because it formed what I considered the basis of my church’s entire belief system back when I went.
But yeah, we’re on the same page about the magazine stuff. I know some people do base their decisions on it, but I guess I was thinking of people who seriously believe in astrology (as in, perhaps people who also believe in tarot cards or actual related spiritual beliefs). I guess I’ve never met someone who took astrology seriously enough to let it affect their actions who ALSO was the type who got it out of a women’s magazine. The people I know who believe in it take it much too seriously for that to be their source.
I think I read the same thing about suicide rates. And also certain illnesses like BPD? I think that may have been babies born in winter. Of course, it reminds me of how studies one week say coffee is good for you and say it’s bad for you another week, so I’m wary of citing pretty much anything like that.
Ugh, coffee. A month ago I read it adds 13 years to your life if you’re a woman. Yesterday I read you are more likely to die from heart disease or something at a young age. Whatever. I’m picking the first one to be true.
The biggest lie of my life was that I needed a man and a relationship to be happy and to have social opportunities. If I could have skipped all of the relationships in my teens and 20’s I might have been better off. Sure they were fun, but while they were learning experiences they also got in the way of me doing what I could have been doing for myself… But back when I was in high school, a girl could not even attend her prom unless a BOY ASKED HER. What sort of shitty message was THAT?!!?! Back in the day having a boyfriend was a ticket to adventure and a way to get around in the world, but what a load of CRAP!
So LW’s of this Facepalm Friday, my advice to you is to give it a rest and use condoms, until you have your shit together enough to choose better men. What the hell is the hurry to rush into relationships? Darned hormones!
Astrology has been proven wrong using the scientific method on multiple occasion: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html
or look here links at the bottom of the article.
OTOH Astronomy is a true science. For instance if you want to see a brand new star in the sky look here: http://www.universetoday.com/104103/bright-new-nova-in-delphinus-you-can-see-it-tonight-with-binoculars/ if it’s clear you should be able to see it naked eye in the country side or with binoculars in the city. Good luck
Jesus, thank you. I really liked your comment above too:
“It might be polite to respect someone who believes into something that is provably false or wrong but letting these belief stand isn’t doing anyone any favor. Of course something has to be proven wrong, not something that is easy or trivial but in the case of astrology anyways that has been pretty much been done.”
I’m not rude to people, but that doesn’t mean I can’t think their beliefs are ridiculous. And even if I were rude, that has nothing to do with whether I’m right or wrong.