makeout regret
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But see, this is what I find extremely problematic about consent. We, as a society, are willing to handwave it away as “how was he supposed to know?”. He’s supposed to know because he’s supposed to make sure he had it. It’s not as big a deal when we’re just talking about kissing in a bar, I know. But people make these exact same arguments about sex and rape. There are many rapists out there who truly believe they are not rapists, because they didn’t properly get consent and they thought they had it. They thought wrong. They are rapists. This guy thought wrong. He is a sexual assailant. I, for one, am not letting this shit slide anymore. Get consent. It’s not hard.
And my original point was not about this guy at all. It was about people on this thread framing it as a regrettable hookup. Which, sorry, is all kinds of fucked-up because people say the same thing about rape. Consent is extremely extremely clear-cut. Get a yes. Then you know. So easy.
Ok, well, I definitely didn’t call this a hookup, and I have different ideas about rape, which we could go back and forth about, but this situation ended with a kiss. She can choose to let it ruin her freshman year, or she can see it as a valuable lesson and pick up a book or class about owning her boundaries and personal space, and actually feel empowered. I’ve kissed a bunch of guys and maybe one of them asked first. I wasn’t assaulted.
Weirdly, I felt more of an obligation to kiss the one or two guys who asked first, because I felt bad for them, and they put me in a position of having to explicitly say “no,” where it’d be easier to just turn my head and get a cheek kiss or something. Kinda fucked up, I know, but true.
And listen, serious question: If *I* felt like that, and you know what a bitch I am, how do you think this woman would react if she was asked for a kiss? If she walked into that club not knowing how to say the word “no,” would it make a difference if he did ask? Again, yes, asking is the correct thing to do to obtain consent, but she also has to know how not to just go with things. She may well have just said “okay” or “sure,” and still felt like shit about herself afterward. Maybe young guys these days DO all ask permission to kiss you, but I doubt it.
It may have been more than a kiss, since LW mentioned “making out,” which can involve a lot more handsiness than kissing. It’s pretty clear that LW is very naive and not very assertive, which is why the book suggestions should be helpful, along with a whole shitload more caution and awareness.
And LW, just because a guy may appear to be more your “type”, doesn’t mean that he may not be a creep. No harm has been done, but you really need to learn how to handle yourself in party and bar situations, and to be aware and assertive at all times, and not let yourself go along with just anything on account of peer pressure.
I think a big part of the problem here is that her parents have raised her to let them make all of her decisions for her. Then she ends up in this situation and her parents aren’t there to tell her what to do or how to handle it. Her parents have raised her to not question and to not have an opinion of her own. They raised her to passively go along with whatever they decided and so she passively went along with what both her friends and the guy decided. She hasn’t had experience with making her own decisions. She doesn’t know how to say no. She doesn’t know how to set boundaries. She doesn’t know how to form her own opinion and then use that to make her own choice.
The LW didn’t “kiss back.” Nowhere did she say that. From what she’s described, this man DID in fact pluck her out of the crowd. Maybe he responded to some come-hither look the LW didn’t talk about, but from her description, he just walked up, grabbed her hand, danced with her, and kissed her—all without any indication she wanted anything to do with him.
Her big problem (besides the racism) is not knowing how to speak up and say no. Doesn’t mean she deserved to get manhandled, or that the guy was “OK” to do so.
She said she was “so willing.” Who knows what that means, but that plus the “after a while” comment sure sounds like she gave him the time of day and things proceeded pretty normally.
@Kate, that’s exactly the problem I’m trying to fight back against – women are still trained to not say no to men, to not rock the boat, to be polite and do what they want. Even a self-described bitch like yourself feels it. That’s why it’s so important to get this idea across that consent is necessary, and that it’s ok not to give it. ACTUAL consent is necessary. If they ask and you don’t want to, we as women need to learn that it’s completely acceptable for us to say no. And I understand that in some situations there is fear for your own safety which makes it difficult, but guys trying to mack on you in bars is probably not one of them. You can literally just turn around, run out of the bar, and get in a cab if you want.
We need to change the way society sees consent. As a real, necessary part of sexual interactions between men and women. We need to get to the point where if someone says no, the one who asks is GLAD because at least this way they didn’t assault or rape them. Right now we’re at the point where some people are afraid to ask because then they might say no and the chance at sex is shut down. That’s a fucked-up attitude, because the flip side is that they purposely don’t ask so they don’t hear a no and then they assault or rape them.
FWIW, I read “so willing” as “not being ready to literally push him off of me while he was kissing me”. She was clearly traumatized by it, hated it the entire time, wished for it to end. There’s no way to characterize that as actually being willing. And the end of that sentence about being so willing was “found the fact that I am so inexperienced as a burden”. Which, again, sounds like she just didn’t know what to do. As to it lasting a long time, that’s her perspective, and it’s entirely possible it felt like forever since she hated it and wanted it to stop. It may have been 10 seconds in reality. Nothing in her post makes it sound to me like she was actually ok with him kissing her.
She doesn’t say she stood there with her mouth shut either. She doesn’t say “tried to kiss me.” She says “made out with me.” And I find it entirely believable that she kissed back, because she didn’t know what else to do. And yeah, probably would have said yes if he asked. That’s not to say she asked for it, but yeah, not knowing how NOT to go along with something you don’t want is really problematic.
Oh, two clarifications, RR, he kissed her “after a while” of dancing and talking. Not kissed her for a while. And the feeling her inexperience as a burden, I read as feeling like she should get some experience, hence her willingness to go with it.
Per the LW: a man from behind grabbed my hand and started dancing with me. he was ugly, looked significantly older than me, and was[edit]…the exact opposite of my type. after a while and a few exchange of words, he turned me around and made out with me.
Things got out of her control and she’s a wreck. I get it. Maybe she needs to go to a therapist and deal with her regret. I don’t like that she’s hurting. But my thoughts on the matter remain the same: She has been brought up with a lack of ownership over her body. I still do not think this was assault. I think it was crossed wires. If her friends couldn’t tell she was in distress, how could he? Yes – it’s nice to say that everyone should ask everyone for consent for every physical encounter. He should ask, “Can we have sex?” but it’s not realistic to think that he’s going to say “Can I hold your hand…?” “Can I put my hands on your hips…?” etc.
Even at my drunkest I would outline my boundaries with guys, because no one is going to manage me better than me. If they didn’t behave, I walked (crookedly) away. My friends and I had code phrases to help us get out of a bad situation. “Have you seen Betty” or any reference to “Betty” was code for “Get me out of here” or “That guy is super shady and I’m worried he’ll skin you.”
