makeout regret
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I’ve read this entire post too, and I’m with Kate, BGM, JC, List, etc. on this one. I have a really hard time calling what happened assault.
I honestly don’t think I have ever, in my entire life, been asked to be kissed and I have never asked.
I too grew up in an extremely conservative household. Was also Catholic. And was raised to be polite and courteous and to not ruffle any feathers. Unlike this LW, I still knew how to avoid unwanted attention. It’s common sense.
We don’t even know that she was frozen in fear, that was someone else on this thread who said that and then everyone who wants to call it assault ran with it. All we really know – from her own words – is that she didn’t like it and now regrets it. But she does not write that she gave him any indication that she didn’t like it, so how was he supposed to know? Again, the frozen bit was in other peoples words, not hers.
It was an unfortunate event that the LW needs to learn from.
Honestly, the way this was escalated to assault, I’d be afraid to even look at another woman if I were a man.
I’ve kissed many a “frog” in my early days of learning about what I wanted in sex. They were not my physical ideal by a long shot, but it gave me experience and more importantly confidence to go after or accept the attention of those I did want. I admit I was never this naive as this LW & not all of them I totally enjoyed, but I wasn’t being assaulted. So I gave advice based on my experience and on the LW’s desire to have more sexual knowledge. It seemed like: “buyers remorse” & being weighed by others expectations of what a proper good girl should be. Oh & racism; or by racism of her dad meaning she was damned by the physical contact with a differently melanined man. But what do I know?
I think she needs to learn to say yes or no, be more aware of situations & get her friends to help out ocassionally. Oh definitely stop with the racism.
Exactly what Skyblossom said in her first paragraph. That describes consent – enthusiastic participation.
@Lianne, my husband and I do get consent from each other. If one initiates and the other is enthusiastically participating, that’s a yes. If the other isn’t very responsive, that’s a “stop and ask”. Sometimes the unresponsive one says sure, let’s see if I can get into it, sometimes the unresponsive one is like I’m feeling sick and can’t get into it, or whatever. Consent doesn’t have to be through words, but it needs to be clear and undeniable. And if it isn’t then everything needs to stop until it *is* clear, to both parties.
Oh gosh, I thought raising a girl in this society would be harder than raising a boy, but if I have to worry about any person my son may kiss without asking first crying assault on him, we’re doomed. Look, the law varies state to state, but generally speaking, sexual assault is: “any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape.” (This is from the US department of justice).
Another broad definition: “Sexual assault is a sexual act in which a person is coerced or physically forced to engage against their will, or non-consensual sexual touching of a person. Sexual assault is a form of sexual violence, and it includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the person in a sexual manner” (Wikipedia).
I think under these broadly accepted definitions — both socially and legally — someone would be VERY hard-pressed to successfully argue that someone who, in her words, willingly kissed a man was sexually assaulted. This may very well have been an unfortunate and regrettable moment, but sexual assault it was not.
And on every date, RR, he was like, may I kiss you now? I mean, no judgment if he was, but well, I guess I would judge it as awkward.
And like I said, I would never bother bringing this to the point of trying to press assault charges or anything. But it does meet the definition of assault, and for people to call it a regrettable hookup as if she chose this and then regretted later is disturbing. And the reason it’s disturbing is because the exact analogous situation happens with rape, where women are told that if they weren’t explicitly saying no then they weren’t raped. Consent is the same, no matter the degree.
Once again, my point was never whether or not the guy should have known she didn’t want to. It was that people on this site were essentially telling this traumatized girl, who clearly did not want to kiss that guy, that she hooked up with him and just regretted it later. Which, sorry, is all kinds of fucked up. She regretted it literally the entire time. She’s all messed up about it. It wasn’t ever her choice. Someone did something to her, she was unable to stop it due to her inexperience. That’s different than throwing caution to the wind, kissing someone you want to kiss but know you shouldn’t, and then regretting it later.
Wendy is correct. While I can’t speak to all states, California and Texas both require an element that the unwanted touching involve an “intimate part” of a person, which encompasses sexual organs, anus, groin, buttocks, or breasts. Generally speaking, a person kissing a person on the mouth does not meet that standard.
I’m unclear under what definition of sexual assault this situation falls. I understand her distress, but in many states, she can’t even file charges because it does not meet the definition of sexual assault or battery.
In her state, specifically, Sexual assault is defined as “oral, anal or vaginal penetration by, or with the sexual organ of another or the anal or vaginal penetration of another by any object.” Most commonly, sexual assault charges in the state occur when one person is accused of forcing another into a sexual act against their will.
I think most of us have a good idea of whether a person likes what we are doing. We can tell if they seem interested or not. We can tell by their body language whether they are leaning into it or not. If their body language is ambiguous then we should pull back. It isn’t that difficult.
No one is saying she should press assault charges.
@Wendy If your daughter comes home crying because some guy was grabbing her and kissing her when she didn’t want it you’ll be fine with it then because she has a brother and you wouldn’t want her brother to get into trouble for grabbing and kissing girls when they didn’t want it.Wendy would probably tell Joanie some variation of what she told this LW, with less of a tone because racism would be unlikely to be a factor.
From your description of the way you and your husband obtain consent I still don’t see that this man could have known he wasn’t getting consent, IF this could even be defined as assault based on the definitions mentioned by some folks here. She was participating. How would he know her level of enthusiasm since they were virtual strangers? Up until this point, she had given zero indication she was repulsed by his advances. You and your husband have years of experience together so you know when one is “enthusiastic” or not. I still think you calling this assault is a stretch. It’s a learning experience.
