Am I being too pushy on dates? I could use some advice.
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You don’t understand or consider the power dynamics of women and men and first dates and inviting women back to your house and the risk that is to a woman. That means you don’t fundamentally respect women if you haven’t ever considered that risk. You didn’t even acknowledge it until a man, bloodymediocrity, brought it up. I really have a hard time believing a modern, metropolitan man can be so blind.
I’m 39 and have lived in VT, Boston, Portland, Seattle, Salt Lake and Park City, UT, Boulder, CO, Seattle again, and now I’m right outside of Philly. Is that too podunk to have an opinion?
I had kids in my middle school class sexually assaulted. You know no one? How lucky for you. You’ve never read a newspaper and seen sexual assault? Donald trump was just indicted for rape. I mean, it’s everywhere but not anything for you to worry about. It must be awesome to be a man.
That’s why I LOL’d men, YOU being so sensitive and offended at my replies to your post. You’re upset about this but women literally consider if they’ll be strangled as they get ready and text their best friend your name and a screenshot of your tinder profile. That’s why LOL men are so sensitive.
If you’re asking where I’m from — which seems irrelevant — I’ve lived in the northeast, west coast, midwest, two cities in Asia, and one city in Mexico. I’ve lived in suburbs and dense urban areas in equal amounts at this point. I’m a city girl at heart. I’m currently in a major U.S. city. I’m actually just about your age. A lot of my friends ended up in NYC, my sister lived there for nearly a decade. I’ve spent a lot of time there, though have never dated there. I’ve heard the Never Neverland jokes. I’m familiar enough that I don’t doubt there are plenty of people hooking up (as there are everywhere). But I also have friends who have met spouses there, plenty of whom dated without participating in hookup culture (or only did so when they felt like it). It’s not the only way to date, in NYC or anywhere.
It can be easy for people to check out when something doesn’t directly affect them — I know I’ve done it before and I guess you are a man living in a society where we are all conditioned to center men and their comfort — but it’s still shocking to me to hear that a man in his 30s (in vibrant, diverse NYC of all places!) could somehow not know what women endure from men in dating, work, wherever.
Also not to state the obvious, but people in New York, that you would date, come from everywhere, just like us. I’m from Boston. Lots of my friends have lived in NY. It’s not a closed system, Jeff.
And it’s just not credible that you would have no awareness of these issues in 2023.
Nonono, I think you’re mildly strawmanning here and not arguing in good faith. I never said women don’t go through this. All I said is that I’ve been lucky enough growing up in NYC in albeitedly an odd socially and sexually liberal group… that my closest women friends have never faced full on sexual assault and rape. And you’re right it’s lucky. I’m sure women do go through this all the time.
I said that this was an anomaly and I’m tracing back why I undervalued how preyed upon or attacked women feel… and I acknowledge this. I think my friend group and the women I know are lucky here… and it isn’t the same elsewhere in the world and yes I acknowledge that. I’m stating that this difference in background is probably why I undervalue the risk that women feel going home on a first date. But again, most of the women I date longer-term, have not had a problem with this. But some do. And now I can see why. And I think it’s best to be more cautious. But… sometimes communication breakdowns happen.
Communication breakdowns don’t happen if you’re actually listening and commit with your partner and are a mature individual. Like why even write that at the end.
You are the reason you didn’t ge5 a second date. It’s you, Jeff.
Not arguing in good faith, what does that even mean?
What the fuck does sexually liberal group mean? Do you think we don’t have sex? Or have limited experience or something? I went to a super liberal art school where we’d literally have naked parties. Is that liberal? Is it conservative? I’m not some close minded school marm. Like what are you even on about? Women you know have been raped, Jeff. I’m not surprised that maybe they haven’t confided that to you based on your responses here it doesn’t seem like you’d be so empathetic especially if there were communication issues, amirite?
“I honestly wasn’t aware” -Jeff
Anyway, I can’t with this thread anymore. I don’t buy that the women on this thread continue to misunderstand you anymore than I buy that none of the women in your friend group have dealt with the worst of men.
Good luck with the dating!
Anonymousse: I obviously cannot know what 100% consent is… but do you see how that actually plays into my argument a bit? I really do think sex/hookups/consent is complex. The more I think about this… I really don’t think I did anything (with a capital “w”) WRONG. And I think this way because… a lot of people I sleep with on dates are A-okay with it and we go out again and end things for different reasons.
Food for thought: If she is the only one who initiates… how would she know that I consented? If she doesn’t want to initiate for that reason alone… what should she do? Someone has to initiate… and I don’t think you ever really know for certain that the person has consented. And I actually think that’s okay and a part of dating and sex and hookups. There is a little risk sometimes. And I think figuring out what went wrong when it happens to try to minimize that is a good thing to do. I’ve heeded the advice: don’t ask twice because it runs the risk of being pushy (even though Wendy also said… it might not!). But I think it’s tricky for any party to initiate. If your advice is to wait 3 dates because that’s good… why? That’s still not a fullproof way of making sure your partner is fully onboard. You would run into the same issues of consent.
I’m honestly going to continue to hookup with people on first dates if I feel it’s consensually given. And sometimes, like this one, I could be wrong. And I think that’s okay. I think there’s nothing wrong with first date hookups and I don’t believe relationships and first-date hookups are at odds. Again, all 4 of my year+ relationships started with a first date hookup. But it is hard to fully know how the recipient feels about it and maybe that’s why to be hesistent or at least, accept the consequences. I guess I sort of feel that the following things are consistent:
1. Sometimes dates end with a bad hookup
2. It’s nobody’s fault.The only thing I might backtrack is that I probably actually thought the consent level was quite high… higher than whatever bar I needed… and probably above 60%. Before you laugh and point… what is the right number? And how do you get it if you can’t rely on questions and asking and verbal consent. That’s… why I was surprised tbh after our date and came to here to chat. I will say…. I can see how maybe asking twice was pushy… but maybe that the real reason was that there just wasn’t enough emotional or physical chemistry on our date. Or maybe it was whiskey dick
I think instead of “my closest women friends have never faced full on sexual assault and rape” you mean “my closest women friends have never TOLD ME they have faced full on sexual assault and rape.”
I guarantee if you know more than four women, someone has been raped. Friends. Family members. Colleagues. Etcetera.
If you haven’t heard about it, it’s not because it didn’t happen, it’s because they haven’t told you.
I don’t think I’m in bad company:
https://www.vox.com/2016/6/16/11905642/tea-and-consent-sexual-assault
anyway, goodbye everyone! This has been another fun hour of internet conversation!
Yes Bess Marvin, and that’s why I think I undervalued at first the impact of asking twice would have. I agree. I’m saying because I have never encoutered it and that it’s less visible in my sphere… that’s why I think I undervalued how first-date hookups feel to women and why asking twice is a no-no. That does make sense to me.
I’m stricly debating the claim that hooking up on first dates is inherently bad (because my personal experience, friendships, and relationships with people say otherwise) and the idea that… consent is hard to fully obtain and understand.
I don’t think relying on women to initiate with men is a viable solution because of what I wrote above.
