Robert123
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TheLadyE
if a man is not interested in kissing me by the 3rd date, I assume he is not interested romantically. (And I think I’m generous!) My last two exes kissed me on the first or second date
Copa:
I used to assume that if we hadn’t kissed by, like, date three that the guy wasn’t romantically interested.
Wow. Those two comments blew me away. I’m speechless on that one.
I’ve actually came in here a couple of times to respond, but I had trouble gathering my thoughts on that one. Still do, to be honest, so if I jump around in this post, that’s why.
I have encountered a few, and I emphasize a few, women over the years, who indicated this, but because it was just a few, I thought those were the outliers and the fast movers. It literally wasn’t until now, literally this last round of posts, that this is the norm.
Sure, I’ve seen quick kisses in TV movies. As romantic as they are, they have to speed up the story to fit into, what, 1:40 after commercials are accounted for.
The first kiss has always represented something deep and meaningful to me, even going back many years before my first ever kiss. It always seemed like simple logic to me to get to know someone on a deep level, then kiss and get deeply physical. Not things like holding hands or arms around each other, etc., that I’ve done on the first couple of dates.
I just can’t kiss that quickly. Wow. The thought of that… I just have no words. I genuinely miss kissing, but because it’s a symbol to me of something deep. How is depth like that possible by the 3rd date? AM I slow on that part of it, as well?
Ange:
If you’re genuinely just waiting for a deeper connection before you get physical it’s worth being upfront about that early on.
It wasn’t that I was “waiting”, I literally acted in accordance with what I thought was the logical flow of things.
Ange:
If you’re genuinely just waiting for a deeper connection before you get physical it’s worth being upfront about that early on.
Many multiple massive miscommunications over decades. I literally had no idea there was anything to talk about.
Ron:
But… you do date a woman for 3 months, apparently with no explanation of why nothing physical is happening. She left, because she was frustrated. Did you give her any reason for why you were so slow with the physical?
I had no clue that I was slow.
Why it takes so long for even a kiss
To me, it’s not “even” a kiss. I don’t like that adjective. A first kiss from me is an expression of deep attraction. After the first one, it can mean either physical or deep. A first kiss is sort of like my way of telling her that I think I know her well enough that I want to take our relationship to the next level. It says that I want her to be my exclusive girlfriend, I guess you could say.
Do you let her know how you feel about her during this time?
Well, I kept wanting to do go on dates to begin with. If I am not interested, then I would not want to go out with her. I am affectionate on a low level, but on a level that I always thought to be appropriate so as not to come on too strong, but evidently not strong enough.
Copa:
A friend of mine and her now-husband met on OKCupid and apparently they didn’t even kiss for a solid 4-5 months.
Okay…well, I would likely not be waiting that long, though in their defense there’s nothing wrong with that, either. The fact that they really got o know each other is a good indication that their marriage will be successful.
Ange:
If you don’t talk about why you’re doing something (or not doing something in this case) then women are going to assume the worst.
In my 20s, and even into my early 30s, with the exception of my ex girlfriend, it seems as though I couldn’t get past 2-3 months. As soon as I start to feel something deep enough to pursue something more physical, she would lose interest, and I never get the chance. I wish I’d known all about this then.
I did some reading on demisexuality, and I’m not sure that I am quite that, either. There is another classification of sorts, where I think I fit, actually, that is not quite demisexual, who gets the urges and impulses, but cannot act on them until there is a deeper connection. I’ll go back to my example of the pretty, well-dressed lady I see passing by on the street. Am I aroused? Well, yes, I have to be honest. I can be, also, in the first few dates of seeing someone, but I just cannot be that casual with kissing. Physical without something deeper behind it??? I don’t get it. I can’t do it. A kiss is not a handshake.
To me, there is nothing unique about the physical aspect of a relationship. I’ve always started with being able to carry on a conversation and enjoying doing things together, then eventually caring about each other as people, and if we’re enjoying each other, then get physical because there is something deeper.
No wonder nothing else matters, qualities about the person. They just want that kiss the fastest way possible. I’m trying to share my life with someone of quality, and they’re only looking to get kissed.
I do have to ask, before I go — I mean this in all seriousness — if that’s the case, then what is the point in profiles and descriptions?
I was bring up two identical women to make a point. The two women would not be identical in real life. I get that. It was a statement to make the point that the deep qualities are what I am attracted to. I like when a woman is pretty, but I will not choose that over something deeper.
I do not see women as interchangeable. You and I see things the same way. I was merely making a point.
I was. I have to be honest. I kept trying different things, to no avail. I think it was when I came to this forum, and Wendy assisted with my profile re-write, and it went over well, not only with me but the community here. It did get me more first dates, but also more “only” first dates, unfortunately. My frustration got serious when I could not get an explanation. I’ve always been willing to take a look at things — but look at what?
I can deal with the idea that there is no physical attraction, but all it took to find out what could have been said in a single sentence…
Kate, I read the article in the link. Like BitterGayMark, I have never heard of the term “demisexual”, but it does explain things. I am definitely heterosexual (the article says demisexual and heterosexual/homosexual are two different things). I am not attracted to men at all, in that way, never will be, only attracted to women, but I cannot act on “those” desires until there is some sort of a bond. It doesn’t have to be full on deep love, but something deep has to be there before I can do the shallow.
Also, to BitterGayMark, I never said that interest in haunted houses and light shows indicates a deep connection. That is the type of thing that creates the initial attraction for me. Not just those, but other interests, are what gets me attracted to a woman.
That explains why I can be attracted to a woman who is not “conventionally pretty”. If two women were identical in every way, except one is pretty and one is ugly, I’d be equally attracted to both. I’d be looking for a tiebreaker that is not looks-related. Though, I have to admit…and I kind of feel ashamed to, in a way, but…if the looks were the only tiebreaker, I’d go for the pretty one, t be honest. It’s not as if I am totally blind to looks, but the deeper bond overrides that.
In middle school, even in high school, I think I was like everyone else, in that I would favor the prettiest girls. I think at that age everyone is like that, but in adulthood (and even in my high school years) the deeper things eventually took over.
Copa: I dated haunted house woman for nearly 3 months. I was ready for the physical to happen at that point, but she moved on before I could do anything. That’s been a frustration of mine going back into the 1990s. In my college years, I was so shy and awkward that I could not even tell a woman that I thought she was beautiful, or even compliment an outfit she was wearing if she made an effort (there’s a situation I’ll never forget in which a woman dressed up to specifically get my attention, but I didn’t realize it until long after the fact).
Vathena: Yes, it can take years of knowing someone, but it does not take years to “fall in love”, obviously, not even for me. The thing with my ex was that we both changed. After we were together for a year, my paradigm changed. I started thinking in terms of eventual shared goals. I was deeply in debt, like $30,000-$40,000 on credit cards PLUS student loans, trying hard to avoid bankruptcy. My desire to clean that up and not bring that into a marriage made me more ambitious, I just wanted it done, and she could not deal with that. On the other hand, she became less ambitious, and got frustrated that I worked outside of her obligatory 40 hour work schedule. She was not in debt, and not an overspender, but she always was unhappy that there was no money left after regular expenses, and played a victim. My attitude was, and still is, money is easy to get, just go to work. Her situation was a lot easier to fix, and I was frustrated that she was not fixing it.
Bottom line: She could not deal with the idea that I was aggressively trying to fix my problem, and I could not deal with the idea that she was not fixing hers. It would always be me, really, who would advance us toward our shared goals, and I need someone with whom to work together.
Peggy: I am not sure how I came across as arrogant, I only gave the description as points of fact. You said yourself, I expressed that here to make the point that the deep way overrides the looks/surface things. She actually had the ambition I look for, incidentally, in addition to other things in common, so that’s why my feelings started getting deep enough to think about acting on the physical. But, she backed away before it could happen, and my experience has been the same — pretty, ugly, fat, thin — whatever.
Kate: My “anger” and frustration has been with the idea that repeated women come to the conclusion after one date that there is no connection. I literally had no comprehension that the physical was more important than the deep. I think I am like anyone else that the connection for the deep takes some time, but did not see until now that the women were talking about a different connection. Yes, I agree that the “connection” for the physical can be determined quickly, but was not the connection I was thinking of, so hence my frustration.
I also do go far, far deeper than haunted houses and Christmas lights, but that type of thing is the initial attraction — the companionship, basically. It’s a start, and things get deeper from there.
I remember someone I dated for about…well, the magic 2 months, less than a year before I met my ex. It was late October, she was big into haunted houses, and so was I (and still am), and had a lot of other things in common, as well. We actually met at a haunted house, she was there with one of her friends and her boyfriend. We hit it off really well, and our next date was 3 days later, on Halloween itself, we went to another haunted house. Then, we did the Christmas lights, etc. She wasn’t bad looking, though certainly not “conventionally pretty”, and while not “fat”, was a little overweight, but someone I really enjoyed doing things with, and hence I was attracted to her. There really wasn’t that initial spark, at least for me, but once I dated her enough to get to know her enough to start to feel the deeper feelings I need to feel in order to feel the “lust” feelings, she lost interest and pulled back. Hence my frustration that has repeated itself dozens of times in my 20s. Wash, rinse, repeat.
There are several things to which I’d like to ultimately respond, but I’d like to focus on something Kate said, that went deep into my head, that explains a few things, going back even 2 decades the more I think about them. I’ve always understood the concepts, but a few things got deep into my spirit.
Starting with…
There are undefinable things like mannerisms, their smell, their eyes, that you can only pick up on in person, and if the chemistry and attraction aren’t there – if we can’t imagine making out with them – it’s not going to work.
I’ll start with a definition, just so we’re on the same page. The word that comes to mind is “lust” to describe this. Now, if my word is wrong, I will gladly rewrite this, changing the one word, but when I use the word “lust” in this discussion, this is what I am referring to.
As opposed to “love”. which, to me, is far deeper, and takes time. Love, to me, includes things like being able to feel each other’s emotions, being able to count on each other, knowing what the other is thinking…basically, really knowing each other on a deep, emotional, spiritual level, where the 2 hearts start to connect.
As opposed, again, to “infatuation”, which I think of as the initial euphoria, the intrusive thinking, the butterflies in the stomach, the intrigue…
Just to clarify how I am using the words in this discussion.
I seem to feel love and lust the opposite of what Kate described. Serious desires to get physical in the way Kate described happen for me only after I start feeling love. Love has to come first for me.
That would explain why, with the exception of my 20 month ex, I had trouble getting past the 2-3 month mark. Once I have dated someone enough to start to feel love for the other person, things come to an end, and the physical never happens, beyond some hand holding and maybe some light cuddling.
Things happened faster with my ex. She did express some minor frustration at times, but at the same time was liking going slow. She was used to things going faster physically, but was liking the idea of us really getting to know each other and building a good foundation (her words). We kissed for the first time about a month after meeting in person, though it was about our 9th or 10th date — and I thought that was quick, but we were deeply in love with each other by that point, so it didn’t seem forced.
Now I think I get the vibe I am giving off that is causing the women to not feel a “connection” on the first date. We are looking for two different kinds of connections. I see why I am getting frustrated. What I think of as a connection has zero to do with physical; while it can happen on the first date or two, usually averages about 3 or 4 or maybe 5 dates to happen. Then, love (maybe), and if love, then the lust.
I do not feel what Kate described on the first date.
Now, I feel as though I should clarify, if I see a random pretty woman on the street, let’s say she’s wearing a pretty dress or something…yes, I do feel “that”…I just wanted to clarify…I think of that as just hormones. Though if we were to talk for a few minutes and we get along well, then, yes, infatuation can happen for me within that short conversation.
Common ground, such as enjoyment of common things, is my initial attraction to a woman, and overrides anything that is “eye candy”. I will give up a lot inf looks to gain a little bit in common interests without even thinking about it, as, like I said, that is what I am attracted to initially.
I know a lot of you pointed to things like playing with hair, and the arms around each other, as surface things. And they are, in a sense, but those are part of the “lust” that I feel after I start to feel “love”. It is the feeling of love that I very much miss, and because I associate those gestures with a point at which we are in love, or at least beginning to fall in love, that’s why I feel empty when I see them around me.
I guess this is why I feel the way I do about phone calls. I focus on the interaction itself, and how we can carry on a conversation. To me, if I can carry on a conversation with the other person, then we can have a good time on a date, and that is how it plays out for me most of the time. I now get what you are saying about the phone call not being able to reveal what you are looking for. For me, though, I need to know that I can carry on a conversation before meeting for the first time. It doesn’t even have to be long. It’s not something I’m doing to “push the other person around” or to “put up hoops”, but I have to get a sense as to how we can interact conversationally before meeting. There has been very little difference, in that regard, between a phone call and a meet, but sometimes a big difference between messaging and a phone call.
Now, the question becomes, how do I bridge this communication gap, in messaging presumably. But one thing at a time.
There’s a concept that’s been stuck in my head, from E’s example:
We had sent long messages back and forth on a dating app for probably 2-3 weeks
coupled with
I can’t pinpoint it either; I just knew within 30seconds-a minute that we weren’t going to vibe. We just didn’t have that connection in person
Those two ideas are so diametrically opposed, that it is a little hard to grasp. It’s basically as if the only possible way that can happen is if the guy put up a false front in messaging, and was his real self upon meeting — yet E is not making any such suggestion.
For me, when something interests me about a woman in a profile, and we start messaging with that as common ground, unless something big about us is so different, or it turns out that that is the only thing we have in common, for example, then that thing, or those things, are always there, unless the other person has outright misrepresented herself.
The way E presented her example, the thing that interested her about the guy initially suddenly became totally irrelevant. That makes no sense to me.
If I may digress in a way, I remember a few times at speed dating events, I remember one woman who, haunted house were her about the #1 thing she enjoyed doing any time (like me with the Christmas lights). It is my #2 thing, behind Christmas lights. If one finds haunted houses (or any other thing, just using haunted houses as this specific example) fun, then they are fun for that person. Period. A few things people have suggested on here might indicate that a given interest is fun with some people and terrible with other people. Like me with Christmas lights, I enjoy Christmas lights, no matter what, regardless of the person. If another person enjoys something, even mildly, that I am avidly interested in, it just makes sense to me to do that thing with that other person and get to know them more.
One example the other way, is Kate with the rowing. She loves her husband dearly, but there is no way she could ever be interested in rowing herself. No matter what. Period.
It just seems only logical to me that, if a lifelong relationship can take place with no problem with the #1 interest completely missing, then two people can have some single fun dates around a similar major interest. That’s not to say that the two people are automatically the right match, but I’m not thinking like that certainly on the first few dates.
I’m not going to include quotes, but several have said about things not being definable, and that seems to be part of why I have trouble grasping the above concept. I remember I always was bored in computer classes when we had to make flowcharts when most of the class struggled, because my mind is wired to be logical and concrete. I had to take art appreciation and philosophy as required electives, and those were my hardest two classes, because they were completely abstract. I can grasp the existence of the concept, but finding the hidden meaning behind art is something I will never get.
If I may digress, there is a little parklet in my area, that has a large piece of art, that I cannot describe except, to me, it looks like someone dumped a load of steel beams there, and I find it an eyesore, to be honest. Yet, there is meaning behind it. It’s a concept that needs to be explored in therapy, obviously, The lack of a “connection” despite common interests — checking off the checkboxes, basically — is really too abstract a concept for me to grasp.
Another thing several of you mentioned, I’m not trying to “win” in our exchanges. The personality test I took years ago also indicated that I am also an inquisitor, by nature. I am not trying to “argue”, but when see things a certain way — I can be convinced, but I evaluate it first, and I just ask so that I can be convinced that I am wrong, if I am. I just use independent judgement, on anything I am learning.
So in that circumstance, we hadn’t talked on the phone
I know how some of you feel about the phone, but it just seems to me that E’s real meet was exponentially higher maintenance than a phone call. A phone call would have gotten her out of a lousy time, then she could have gone to the art exhibit herself and had the good time she said she would have had.
The last date I went on was also without a phone call, and I decided that would be the last time without a phone call. I wasted time, and $$$, for no purpose whatsoever. Since every woman is different, I gave her the option, and she said she would prefer the first date with an actual dinner, rather than a Starbucks first meet. I actually agreed, so that’s what we did. I basically gave her my time and $$$, and got nothing for it, not even a simple explanation as to what changed.
I know what you all are going to say about that, so please don’t repeat it, but the waste of time and money and emotions is why I am so disgusted right now.
On the weight loss coach, that is already paid for. I have struggled with a sugar addiction for years, even decades, and that’s the only way I’ve been able to get my weight off. I’m not going to lie, I like my improved appearance as a result of the weight loss, but my motivation is health. When my weight’s down my energy level skyrockets, and I’m able to do more in life.
The “intense” comment actually referred to my focus on losing weight. It made me a good client in the program, as I was super motivated to lose the weight, but perhaps not everyone was up for that in other areas of life.
I’m learning how much responsibility there is in caregiving. My father is not doing well, not sure how long he will be around, either. Covid is making things harder, as I spend a lot of time on the phone. I’ve had a stretch of not much happening with the car, so therapy is not a problem, but I never know when something might happen with my father.
LisForLeslie:
(“But why don’t you like this thing that I like? Here are 20 reasons why everyone should like this thing that I like”) or (“Your preference for thing B over thing A is wrong and now I’ll explain to you why you’re wrong.”)
I have never, ever, not ever, thought someone was wrong for not enjoying an interest of mine, or for liking something that I have no interest in. I’m not sure how I came across like i did. And because I don’t feel that way, I’ve never accused anyone of being wrong, either.
LisForLeslie:
For example, many many many years ago I worked in construction. I didn’t do any labor, but I put on my hardhat and went to a plywood office in the middle of a very large, very visible construction site in the middle of DC blocks from the White House. When socializing in DC the first (and very annoying) question anyone asks is “what do you do?”. I can not tell you how many times I’d tell people that I, a very young woman, work in construction and there was no follow up. Nothing. My answer was “wrong”. Specifically it was wrong because I could not be used as an asset (I know a person who does…) nor could not be used as a measuring stick (Well I work at…).
If that was me, I would not have thought less of you for that, just thought I’d mention. My first thought may have been, do you build homes…just my first image of construction, since my father was a homebuilder. Then you would have told me what you did, presumably, and the conversation would have went from there.
Just to share how I would have done that conversation.
Kate:
Insisting on phone calls is high-maintenance /difficult. There is no need for that, and it’s not going to prevent you from finding out you have no physical attraction
This leads me to a question that might seem overly basic, but are you saying the “no connection” means no physical attraction? The word “physical” was unexpected, so it made me wonder.
I’m not saying that physical attraction isn’t a consideration for me, but I’d rather date a woman who is average, or even below average, in looks, over one who is drop dead gorgeous with whom I have little in common. Looks are nice, but I have never proceeded with someone just because she was “beautiful” without having some common ground.
Peggy:
Lady E’s point about not clicking with the guy, when she met up with him at the gallery, is very important here. She said she could not say exactly why, but she knew he was not going to be someone she was interested in spending more time with/getting to know
I should have brought this up earlier, but it just goes back to what I said, my mind sees that there are only two ways this could have happened, either something was not asked before meeting to find this out up front, or the guy misrepresented himself. That’s all I’m able to see. It’s the abstract stuff like this that my mind just isn’t wired for, not only in relationships but in other areas of life, too.
I remember one friend who had a similar interest in photography as me, but for different reasons. I take photographs to capture memories, a photograph of a festival, or a light display I like, etc., but he was more into the art of it, like a reflection of something off a puddle. I photograph that item to remember that item.
Kate:
I think he’s said he’s giving all ages a shot now
I am. I am still open to younger, but I am open to older, too. I would still like to have kids, but I realized from being on here, that my reality might be, no kids with no life partner because I am focused only on someone who wants kids, or no kids with a life partner because I have opened up to someone who doesn’t want kids.
The women with whom I went on my last date, by the way, is 8 months older than me. I’ve also messaged with women as high as mid 50s.
Junie:
Robert, have you ever worked more traditional jobs
I did, briefly, for one summer when I was 17. My father got me in at his construction company. They didn’t exactly need another full time laborer, but did need an extra hand, so i did a lot of the lighter duty work. I started my landscaping business 2 years after that, and that worked out well for me.
I’ll be honest, my original plan was to get a “job”, but I never figured out what was holding me back in my mind until my mid 30s when I took the personality test. Owning my own business, or at least being in executive level management, is where I belonged. When I see someone in a “traditional” job, I see a company who just needs a robot.
Now, before someone gets the wrong idea, I am not calling individual employees robots. It’s just the idea that corporate offices already have things worked out and needs someone else to do the work. It just doesn’t work for me if I cannot do something that needs to be done, that I am capable of doing, but I don’t only because I am not permitted. Just do it and forget the melodrama is how I work.
Cleopatra_30 said something in another thread, that I hope we can talk about:
I do my best to try and find some common ground with them, enough to feel confident that when I meet in person I have some good topics and ideas to chat about
That’s how I think. I used to do that before I came here, but learned form you on here that it was a turnoff because it is “interviewing”. Now, she’s suggesting that someone else do it.
???????????????????
TigerPaw357, on same above thread
Speaking for myself, I like phone chats in getting to learn about a potential date
I’ll let that comment stand on its own. Just thought it’d be relevant here.
Sandra, your thread struck some chords with me, as I am experiencing the identical thing that you are, with the first dates and done.
You did say that you hardly met men online in your previous city, and now you only use online. Online is the problem, not you. I am a little older than you, so have been doing the online thing for more years, and even online has changed, and not for the better. It’s the same with me with women, if there’s no instant spark then that’s it. It never used to be this way.
The only thing I can see is your noticing that 30 is coming, and your feeling a little left out with your friends getting engaged. You don’t seem to be dwelling on it, but have simply noticed it, as I understand what you have said. Maybe that’s getting picked up on, and the guys are just making assumptions that you are in a hurry.
There’s nothing wrong with taking a break, especially during the pandemic. A lot of quality people, both men and women, are waiting for coronavirus to get under control before coming back. I went invisible in June, 2020, and will stay there for the foreseeable future.
I kept my profile up at the very start of the pandemic, thinking I’d get to have an extended communication with matches, then maybe date in the summer. Between March and June, 2020, when I went invisible, I did find that the women I communicated with were a little more needy, and that combined with the start of the second wave got me to hid my profile. I say this, to say that the same might be true of the guys. You may be doing everything right, but it could be that the best quality guys have not yet come back.
Bottom line, don’t assume that you are doing something wrong when you likely do not have the best pool available to you.
Question: Did you do much online dating prior to March, 2020?
Kate:
But for most women, mini-golf is an activity to do with someone you already know you enjoy being with. That’s what makes it fun, not the activity itself.
Yes, it is more fun to share it with someone who also enjoys it herself, which is why I like to do that on a date. I’m wondering if I’m in a bit of a different place on this. I used to think that way in my 20s and even into my mid 30s, but somewhere along the line my perspective changed — I think. One (of many) thing I liked about dating was seeing and doing all these various things that we mutually enjoyed — together. When I took breaks from dating, or wasn’t dating anyone, or she was simply unavailable that day, I would feel down because I couldn’t be with *her*, but I would also feel down because I wasn’t doing this that or some other thing. Some time in my mid 30s, I realized that this aspect of life was passing me by. I started just doing things by myself, and I enjoyed them (and still do, obviously). At some point, can’t pinpoint when, I felt stupid when I realized that I was allowing my not having a girlfriend or even a date deciding that I wasn’t going to do whatever thing. *My* joy comes from the activity itself (watching fireworks, Christmas parades, etc.). My loneliness comes from not having a partner to *share* the joy I feel.
Example, the other way. I’ve encountered women who enjoy horseback riding. I have zero interest in it. I would get no joy in it, even if I was doing it with my soulmate.
Bottom line on this one, if I enjoy something, it’s because I like it from within, not from who I was doing it with. Rather, my joy with doing something with a partner is seeing that *she* is *also* enjoying the activity and is having a good time.
TheLadyE:
First dates should be meeting for a drink/coffee, informal, relaxed atmosphere, casual conversation, to see if you want to invest more time.
I am approaching things that way; I think that miscommunication is bad semantics on my part. I think of that as a “first meet”. I do not consider something like that a date. A date, to me, is at least going out to dinner, or doing some activity if food is not involved.
Basically, “first date” and “first meet”, may, or may not be, the same thing. At your suggestions, I have done the “first meet” thing a few times, but, one example is the last woman I met, she preferred to do a “date” rather than a “meet”, and I had no problem with that. So, we went out to dinner. Complete waste of time, as it was one and done, but I would have said the same of a “meet” that had the same result. But, that’s not what I am discussing here.
Also, I don’t think you meant it that way, but the words you used made it sound like an interview. The frustrating thing is that I can’t seem to pass, but I’m working on starting therapy for that.
Something like mini golf is best saved for those first weeks/months in a relationship, where you’re still getting to know each other but you want to have some experiences together now.
This is a bit elementary, but what do you suggest, then, during the summer for a first date, not a first meet? There is always a festival or a fair somewhere, and there are places where we can go out on a lake in a pedalboat. Or perhaps hiking. Or the zoo. All things I think of for summer.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never had an issue with mini golf, even on a first date. Yes, there are moments when we are concentrating on the ball, but it’s also a chance to laugh when the ball does something unexpected (like you unintentionally hit it a little too hard and it leaves the green when it bounces off something), or just a chance to be silly. There’s also time to talk when we’re waiting for the people in front of us to finish their turn at the next hole.
For example, a couple years ago I once went to an art museum exhibit on a first date – one I had been wanting to go see for weeks. I knew within 30 seconds of meeting him in person that we probably weren’t going to go out again.
I like those little examples. If I may ask, as I am genuinely curious, what did you see immediately upon seeing him that did not come out during the phone conversation? It seems so dramatic and sudden to me, the way you described it, that there *has* to be some indication beforehand.
Kate:
Do you realize that not once in this whole thing have you taken a break from complaining for 5 minutes to say, gosh, I hate to think I’m making women uncomfortable. How can I change that?
I figured that out before I came here. It’s why I came here. It’s why I’ve asked for feedback from the women themselves. It’s why I’m trying to get into therapy.
Prognostigator:
You triggered a thought, is it *assumed* that the next date *automatically* involves coming to *their* residence and getting into my car?I thought about what you wrote, and — if I’m wrong in this thought, then feel free to say so — but if everything we’re doing is out in public with people around, or at places where cameras are recording, it’s hard to see a scenario where I *could* even do something nefarious and get away with it.
But, with the above thought, then, yes, I can comprehend how they may feel in danger. If that is the case, then maybe I’m not communicating right, as I already came to that realization over 20 years ago. Even back then, I’ve always been up front that I would not be offended if they wanted to meet at the venue and bring their own car even after the first meet.
Maybe I’m not doing a good job at communicating this to the women??????? It’s *been” obvious to me.
since we all know that what people put out there (dating profiles, facebook, insta, etc) is a curated version of “the best you” and not an accurate picture.
I seem to be putting ut negatives that are equally as false.
Peggy:
it appears you are/or want to be, grilling/interviewing woman/dates, instead of just “being” to see if there is a natural flow of conversation, connection etc.
Not anymore. After communicating with all of you here, I realize that I *used to* go down a list and check off boxes without realizing it. Yes, I *was* interviewing them, but I did not do that on my most recent meets (late 2019, early 2020, before the pandemic).
Honestly, if anything, I’m feeling as though the process has flipped, that *I’m* being interviewed. Maybe it’s karma.
A few miscellaneous things I thought of:
I read something on another thread on here (Sandra, who seems to be having the same issues I am having), that triggered something in the back of my mind that I never thought was relevant, but I’ll present it here. One woman did tell me that I was a gentleman and a pleasant person to talk to, but she felt that I showed no interest in her on the first meet. I honestly thought I did. I asked for an expansion, but never got one, so I’m still wondering.
I will say that I never have been the “flirty” type. That other post brought up that thought, wondering if something I’m *not* doing might be an issue. That particular date, she couldn’t have felt unsafe, as she offered me a ride home (she lives just a few miles from me). I took the bus in, as it was in the city, and I can’t stand taking a car into the city — where do I put it once I’m there? Easier to take the bus. I wanted to take some more photographs, so I stayed. She just said “oh, wow, you’re a trooper”. Not sure what that meant, but I smiled and said I enjoyed meeting her and that I hoped I would get to see her again.
—————-
I did get one little piece of feedback I’ll present here, for what it’s worth. I was talking to my weight loss coach (I’m about to go back on the weight loss program, I keep gaining because I have a sugar addiction, so I’ve worked with her before). I know it’s a business relationship, she is a little younger than me, we had some extra time, and we have good rapport, and we communicate via phone, so I told her briefly what was happening. She did say that I have a bit of an “intense” personality. That’s the only thing she could see in me that could be intimidating.
What do you think? Could that be misinterpreted?
I forgot a few things:
Kate:
Someone could have never been jazzed about Christmas parades but still be happy to go to some of them with the right partner.
I never thought of that scenario, specifically, I have to admit. I have met some who feels “dragged” to parades, not just Christmas. It’s just that those are the people who I would not be able to share that interest with, and why there could be a problem. Either I would still be lonely or she would be unhappy in being forced to go.
LisForLeslie:
Are you getting turned down or are you getting ghosted?
Both
Is one more preferable to you?
Yes. Obviously, there is no clue that I’ve been ghosted until some time has passed. I’d rather be told “I did not find out about X that is a dealbreaker to me until we talked”, or “Y thing brought up haunts of a bad relationship I once had”, or whatever. It’s far more respectful. At least I would know that I did something wrong, and be mindful not to do it again, or that we have a gap that we cannot bridge, or whatever.
Kate:
Like, you even directly state this yourself, that even if you don’t feel the spark, you would keep hanging out because you could have fun together. Women are the same way.
CurlyQue:
I suggest looking at a first date as a chance to get out and have a drink/meal with someone and to feel them out.
I actually do…or at least did…go in with that view, at least after I came here initially and that was suggested. It just seems that the women don’t share that view. At least that’s the perception I’m left with.
I’ll expand.
For example, I cannot think of a woman I have encountered who did not enjoy miniature golf or fireworks in the summer (I’m sure some don’t, but we can say for this specific example that that’s almost universal). Let’s say that I meet a woman with whom we don’t seem to *instantaneously* have a ton of things in common, but we both enjoy those two things. My thing is, why not go on a date to miniature golf, to feel each other out? Even if there is no “click” initially, if we both have a good time playing miniature golf by ourselves, how is it possible to have a bad time? The same with fireworks, may shows which are accompanied by a concert, so even worst case scenario if we had little to talk about, there would be no need to talk anyhow because we would have a concert/fireworks show to enjoy.
In a nutshell, even if there are other women I would have *more* fun with, or other men *she* would have more fun with, if we both individually find X activity fun, then there is nothing wrong with an outing of that particular X activity, in my opinion.
The women are not taking the same view, or so it seems.
**************
There is one thing that was brought up in my last thread, that is not playing out in real life — unless I am missing something, if I am I will consider. But, I can’t remember who, but someone (or several) said that quality women like guys with a full life. And I seem to be finding the opposite. The women (at least the ones I encounter) in reality want a guy to be available to write messages all day instead of having other responsibilities such as a job. They quit writing when the job keeps me away from messaging.
I want to go on dates, not write messages. And not just first dates and done, that is equally as unfulfilling. I want to get to know someone (when it’s safe to do so after the pandemic)
I didn’t realize how long it’s been since I wrote back last. My father was in the hospital for several weeks, and I guess I lost track of time. I did read your comments, though.
Kate:
And dismissing someone because she’s very into a sport?
I don’t do that anymore. It’s what I *used* to do. You told me the rowing story, and it is one of the things I remembered. I just haven’t come across that situation yet recently, but will not be quick to write her off like i once was.
KTFran:
Lastly, if every woman is either mutually agreeing there is no chemistry or not giving you a second date, then the common variable is you.
That’s my whole point. Multiple women are picking up on the same thing. I am doing something wrong on these dates or in these phone calls. I’ve known that on my own. I have enough to talk about in therapy, now on top of it she has to *guess* why the pattern is repeating. I know she’s an expert, but only the date knows for sure.
Peggy:
So, if there is not much in the compatibitilty and interaction on the date, to possibly/maybe create a spark, most people move on.
Maybe it was your word choice, and you perhaps didn’t intend to convey this idea, but it sounds from that, that it is *her* who is doing the interviewing, not me. I don’t always feel a spark on a second date, but I’m not going to instantly move on just because it didn’t happen on the first date.
But dating is not looking for a “friend”.
I’m not *looking* for a “friend”, either. But if I make one, then how is that a bad thing? (rhetorical to make a point). I see that as nothing other than good.
Ron:
You don’t mention it in the last two posts (have you given up on that requirement), but in your first series of posts to this forum, you required a woman 15 years younger than yourself, so that you could have a child together.
I never did “require” that she be 10-15 years younger. I was concentrating my search there, as you know for the purpose of having the ability to bear children, but I was never against dating a mid 40s woman who was still healthy enough to have a child. I still feel that way, but I’ve also come to the realization that I may be in a situation of my two choices being no kid with no life partner, or no kid with a great life partner. Wanting kids is actually blank on my profile, just because I may have to accept never having a child. But, then again, the whole profile is invisible because of coronavirus. I got my second shot, but the Delta variant seems to want to restart the pandemic all over again. I’ll just wait.
CurlyQue:
I think you are putting WAY too much emotional investment into these first dates.
…because they are women, human beings, with feelings, not used cars to be driven around the block only to be put back 10 minutes later, or an appliance to be looked at and put back up on the shelf. I will not treat another human being like that. Period.
I’m not going to go on the first date to begin with unless that PERSON is worth a few more dates to begin with, and I am not going to have a phone conversation unless I’m willing to go on the first date. If I’m going to find out if something is off, I’m going to do it early on.
I know you are going to say that you can’t always tell that early on, and that can be the truth, I do agree. I did encounter one weirdo (that I think I brought up on here) that it took a phone call to figure out, but beyond that if I move forward I do not stop unless the relationship has run its course.
Lower your expectations of a second date and just see how the first one goes.
I see what you are saying, and the spirit is great advice, actually. My dilemma is, it’s exactly what is getting me fatigued with the process. I cannot deal with the churning anymore. I’d rather have a steady, constant friend than single dates with multiple women. I’m not sure about what to do about the dilemma.
Peggy:
I likely went on at least 40 meet -ups/coffees. Of those, I had second dates with about 6 of them. I dated one for about 3 months, another for 5.
Wow! That sounds exhausting! Even getting to date someone for a few months sounds okay, at least there’s even a small bit of constancy. Obviously, you weren’t the life partners for each other, but you obviously enjoyed each other to be able to date for a while.
Copa:
I really think Robert needs to first acknowledge there’s a good deal of inner work to be done
I’ve known that from day 1, which is why hearing a negative is preferable to me than ghosting or a generic excuse.
Just a few final thoughts on the auto repair thing. This is not an auto repair forum, so I don’t want to focus on that, but there are a few mistaken impressions of me that I want to correct.
Years ago, probably closer to a decade ago (if not more), I added up my auto repair expenses for an entire year (I did that using THREE separate years), and budget 1/52 of that amount every week, though in reality I contribute more like 1/35 or so, as I have the income to contribute more, as a pad. The problem is, one single repair can be more than the sum of what i have contributed so far. The shop feels entitled to my rent money, so I have to hand it over immediately to get my car back. Now I have to put all of my next paycheck or whatever on only my rent and bills and nothing else whatsoever. Then, the bills have been paid, but now I missed 2, 3, or 4 weeks of contributions to the auto repair account. So, I cannot do anything else other than the car repair account. Now, the next month’s bills become due. I have to take from the auto repair account to pay rent, etc. I never can get back to a regular budget, because the shop keeps demanding money right then and there, and refuses to give me any notice. And the cycle repeats, wash rinse repeat.
Even when I did my food delivery (which I will get back to after the pandemic is over), rental cars were almost as much as my rent. Yes, that was a big expense, and was not constant, but I can deal with that. First, they do give me some general broad idea — I do understand they cannot give me a price to the penny. I don’t need to be that precise to begin with. The first month might be $750, maybe the next month is $800, maybe the next one is close to $900. I can deal with all of that. But, I also know that it won’t be $5,000, either. And, they will not take it, under any circumstances whatsoever, until that month is up. The mechanics, on the other hand, give me no notice of either how much or when!!! The rental car agencies want to make money, too, but they are not out of control like the repair shops.
No other industry has treated me like that. Literally none.
Even when I had my landscaping business, lawn mowers broke down, but I never had that problem. I didn’t always have it right then and there. But they did not ransom my lawn mowers. If I didn’t have it all right then and there, I gave them what I had, and brought them the rest when I came back. Even a few instances it took me a while to get them fully paid, such as multiple repairs close together. They still did not ransom my lawn mowers. At times, when I got caught back up, I paid ahead, actually, as a way of maki9ng up for being behind.
I only bring that up to illustrate that the mower people are in a nearly identical trade line, but it never once occurred to them to ransom my equipment like the car shops are doing. Appliance repair people have never done this to me. Computer repair people have never done this to me. No one!!
I do not need months or weeks to adjust. It could be as simple as giving what i have today (which may be most of the bill to begin with) and squaring up on my next paycheck. No big deal.
BTW, keep in mind, the shops are on terms of net 15 or net 30 usually, and technicians do not get paid until at least the following week, to boot. I would not be putting the shop in any bind whatsoever. They delay payment themselves yet will not give the same courtesy to the customer.
Inability to budget or plan for routine expenses;
Not true, as I explained in the first paragraph of this sub-topic
Lack of respect for the skill, time and labor of others who would dare demand that they be paid fairly for the service you needed and asked them to provide;
Also not true. They will not tell me up front a general amount and idea of when, and expect me to adjust sometimes $2,000 in ten seconds. NO OTHER INDUSTRY DOES THAT. I am not refusing to pay a fair rate.
Entitlement in that you believe that the mechanic owes you their skill, time and labor;
Never once have I asked a shop to do a repair for free. Ever!!!!! They are in the business of repairing cars, and that is the nature of the business I am bringing them.
I hope you are able to find a therapist that offers a variety of payment options,
An $80 therapy session does not need to go on a payment plan, especially when they have told me up front how much it is and when. There will be no fee due under any circumstances until X time. And, it’s not a backbreaking amount of money to begin with. I would never consider them to put on a payment plan.
You actually made my point in a way, believe it or not. The therapist is willing to put a known amount and time on a payment plan, but the auto shop is not willing to do this when they WON’T tell me how much and when. That’s backwards.
Like I said, I don’t want to talk about car repairs on this forum anymore, but just wanted to correct a few things, that I passed over in earlier discussions, because I didn’t want to talk about car repairs on a dating forum. I need to find a car repair forum to discuss this there.
Kate:
Robert, I’m genuinely curious, do you want to continue talking with, or go on a 2nd date with, every single woman?
I actually like those questions ?
Not with *every* woman. I have had instances in which we are opposites on everything, and we are in agreement that there is nothing there. That’s more common with speed dating than online dating, but happens occasionally in online dating, too.
If there are some you don’t want to move forward with, do you tell them exactly why?
In the case I just described, no, just because we are in agreement that we are way too opposite. But, if a dealbreaker comes up, I do mention it. My conscience will not let me ghost; way too ignorant. I do mention it, but also let them know that they did nothing wrong, since she is a human being with feelings, and deserves to know that she did nothing wrong, that there’s a gap that cannot be bridged.
If you want to keep seeing all of them, why? Do you have a genuine connection with each of them? Some more than others?
In the absence of an outright negative, then, yes, I do want to keep seeing that person. While connections *can* happen instantaneously, others are slower, and that is fine. It’s just infuriating that the women require it instantaneously, and won’t give us the chance to get to know each other.
LisforLeslie:
But honestly it could simply be that she wasn’t feeling it – nothing concrete.
I’ve felt that myself at times. We have many things in common, but something seemed incomplete. Still, we had a nice time talking, share a number of interests, and the woman was a very nice person. She did nothing wrong to deserve being kicked to the curb. In my 20s and early 30s, I continued with second, third dates, etc. I’d be doing the same today, except *I’m* always the one to get kicked aside.
I feel as though things have flipped. I used to have the checklist (that ( didn’t realize I had before I came here), but now, even if I don’t feel “it” instantaneously, I’m still interested in getting to know her, not knowing what may develop.
Vathena:
Women are not interchangeable and don’t all like the very same things – turns out they are ALSO unique human beings with feelings, and not just merchandise for you to browse!
Correct!!
Several of you have expressed this thought, I just pulled Vathena’s words for the quote.
I’ve always gotten that. It’s actually why my checklist was so long before I came here, and the community here made me realize that I need to just pick out a few important things. I was looking for someone to fit every must have and every “nice to have” with none of the negatives, and I saw how unrealistic this was. I want to share things in life with the other person, and so does she. I get it. It’s why we exchange conversation very early on, to see if we are on the same page. If we want to share different things, it won’t work. If something is a dealbreaker, I’m not going to try to change her. If something doesn’t work on my side, she deserves to know why, and that she did nothing wrong, and that I genuinely value her as a person.
In some of my soul searching, I always felt as though *I* am the one who is not treated like a human being. I wasn’t sure how to express it on here without an example, and now I finally thought of one. I’m not going to do a phone call or a first date if I was not interested in her on some level to begin with. Just because I do not “feel” something instantaneously does not mean she deserves to be thrown away. Again, she is a human being, with feelings; what was there to get me interested initially is still there. Even if there is no “spark” per se, she is a nice person, and we can have fun doing things together if nothing else.
In my prior thread, I forget who said to look upon the first meets as a nice outing. I actually do see it that way, even if I didn’t express myself correctly. What I’m tired of is the one outing and done. If we both mutually enjoy a particular activity, for example, I have no problem enjoying that activity with that person. I don’t necessarily need the “spark” to enjoy her company. The spark may come. It’s taken *me* a few dates (when I was able to *get* more than one date) myself sometimes to feel the spark. All I am asking is the same in return of the *women* in the present time, but I am not respected as a person with feelings. There always was *some* of that back in my 20s, but a number of meets would lead to multiple dates that it didn’t affect me as much, I suppose. Today, though, things with this are getting really bad, as far as the instant gratification. I’m just not sure if it is a societal change or the difference between dating in the 20s vs dating in the 40s. It’s why I cannot get excited anymore about a phone call of a first meet. No point whatsoever in the one and done.
Vathena:
You said in your previous thread that you’d rejected plenty of women who liked sports (because you don’t)
Not that I rejected them, it’s myself stepping aside — keeping in mind what I said above. Most *people* — including most *women* — ARE interested in sports on some level. I completely get that. It’s just that, when I would meet someone who is totally die hard about (whatever sport), I felt as though I would be depriving them of sharing with their life partner something that is very important to them. I always saw that as her deserving something that I am not able to give. I never rejected the woman as a human being. I would step aside on my own, to make room for her to let someone in who can give her something that she deserves.
Vathena:
or weren’t into the holiday parade circuit
…something that I very much want to share with a life partner. That’s why i can relate when someone else has an interest that *I* do not have in common. Like I said before, I am under no illusion that she will be able to come to *every* event, but I would like to share that (as one example) with my life partner on some level.
Having said that, I did realize something at some point, that I did mishandle some of those situations, in not communicating properly. While I acted with the intention of wanting *her* to be happy, I probably should have communicated better rather than just moving on. I guess it never occurred to me until a number of you brought it up that it may have been irrelevant to some whether or not her life partner shared that particular interest, sports or otherwise, as several of you pointed out with personal examples. Nothing like that came up in the recent round of dating, but if it does I will talk about it rather than automatically moving on.
ktfran:
I’m curious as to why you stopped therapy and are waiting to date again to start it back up?
Copa:
I also found it curious that you stopped speaking to a therapist because you stopped dating.
I didn’t stop seeing the therapist because I stopped dating, I had to put that on hold because my car got ransomed a few times in a row by auto shops, and they demanded the money that I had already set aside for therapy. What I had set aside for them wasn’t good enough. It never is. Then, with the pandemic, only one job is contactless and does not involve going inside any building, and it’s not the one that involves the rental cars, so my income took a hit. Now, as of right now, I got past a few regular expenses, and it’s been a little while since my car was ramsomed, so i do have some money set aside. I’ll be looking to re-start, actually, over the next few weeks.
I get my first vaccine shot Friday, BTW.
