Hello all from Robert
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That’s a good explanation from Prognostigator. I would add that it’s not just assault we have to worry about (though that’s a real concern, and yes, we realize you probably wouldn’t assault anyone, Robert, but your dates don’t know that) – it’s also just being a target of male anger, entitlement, stalking behavior, insults, all kinds of things that men don’t worry about but we don’t feel like dealing with. And again, it doesn’t matter if you, personally, wouldn’t do that. You’re still giving off signals that you might.
Also, notice how:
if a woman declines a date with you – you are the wounded party.
if you decline a date with a woman – you are stepping aside to not waste her time.You’ve made yourself out to be the noble party in either situation.
These are the types of things that are picked up in conversation by others (whether you mean it that way or not.) It’s these little subtleties that others use to form their picture of “the real you” since we all know that what people put out there (dating profiles, facebook, insta, etc) is a curated version of “the best you” and not an accurate picture.
You’re getting contacted, that means your profile is not a problem in itself. You’re failing in the “retention” part of dating.
If your date was ok with your profile, but picked up on clues that tipped her off on not wanting to go further, then asking her to enumerate the reasons is asking her to help you find ways to evade her selection process. Sort of like telling the thief exactly how you caught them. All you’re doing is training a better thief, not teaching them not to steal.
[edit: this sounds harsh. it’s not saying you can’t get better. what I’m saying is don’t look for “these specific things” to change, but work on yourself with your therapist to improve your overall outlook. if you don’t come across like you’re trying specifically to do the things necessary to “get the girl” – you’ll likely come across friendlier and less likely to trip the warning bells]
Well stated from Prognostigator. I said before, it appears you are/or want to be, grilling/interviewing woman/dates, instead of just “being” to see if there is a natural flow of conversation, connection etc. You seem to be socially awkward. I think this applies to your interactions with most people, not just women.
Trying to find out from people here or a therapist how to “act”/slant yourself, to “get the girl” is not going to work. It is not honest or true to who you are and in the long run it would be a false compatibility.
Therapy and working on yourself is to discover who you really are what you want and need, and then why you are your own worst enemy in finding those things/people.
If you remain stubborn and don’t “get ” what we are saying and open yourself up to learning, I am afraid you will become ( or remain ) a bitter and lonely guy. It will not improve with time, without serious action on your part to change the dynamic.I can’t believe how much time and effort has been put into trying to help a guy who doesn’t want to be helped. Some people are just a**holes, and there’s no fixing that.
Kate:
But for most women, mini-golf is an activity to do with someone you already know you enjoy being with. That’s what makes it fun, not the activity itself.
Yes, it is more fun to share it with someone who also enjoys it herself, which is why I like to do that on a date. I’m wondering if I’m in a bit of a different place on this. I used to think that way in my 20s and even into my mid 30s, but somewhere along the line my perspective changed — I think. One (of many) thing I liked about dating was seeing and doing all these various things that we mutually enjoyed — together. When I took breaks from dating, or wasn’t dating anyone, or she was simply unavailable that day, I would feel down because I couldn’t be with *her*, but I would also feel down because I wasn’t doing this that or some other thing. Some time in my mid 30s, I realized that this aspect of life was passing me by. I started just doing things by myself, and I enjoyed them (and still do, obviously). At some point, can’t pinpoint when, I felt stupid when I realized that I was allowing my not having a girlfriend or even a date deciding that I wasn’t going to do whatever thing. *My* joy comes from the activity itself (watching fireworks, Christmas parades, etc.). My loneliness comes from not having a partner to *share* the joy I feel.
Example, the other way. I’ve encountered women who enjoy horseback riding. I have zero interest in it. I would get no joy in it, even if I was doing it with my soulmate.
Bottom line on this one, if I enjoy something, it’s because I like it from within, not from who I was doing it with. Rather, my joy with doing something with a partner is seeing that *she* is *also* enjoying the activity and is having a good time.
TheLadyE:
First dates should be meeting for a drink/coffee, informal, relaxed atmosphere, casual conversation, to see if you want to invest more time.
I am approaching things that way; I think that miscommunication is bad semantics on my part. I think of that as a “first meet”. I do not consider something like that a date. A date, to me, is at least going out to dinner, or doing some activity if food is not involved.
Basically, “first date” and “first meet”, may, or may not be, the same thing. At your suggestions, I have done the “first meet” thing a few times, but, one example is the last woman I met, she preferred to do a “date” rather than a “meet”, and I had no problem with that. So, we went out to dinner. Complete waste of time, as it was one and done, but I would have said the same of a “meet” that had the same result. But, that’s not what I am discussing here.
Also, I don’t think you meant it that way, but the words you used made it sound like an interview. The frustrating thing is that I can’t seem to pass, but I’m working on starting therapy for that.
Something like mini golf is best saved for those first weeks/months in a relationship, where you’re still getting to know each other but you want to have some experiences together now.
This is a bit elementary, but what do you suggest, then, during the summer for a first date, not a first meet? There is always a festival or a fair somewhere, and there are places where we can go out on a lake in a pedalboat. Or perhaps hiking. Or the zoo. All things I think of for summer.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never had an issue with mini golf, even on a first date. Yes, there are moments when we are concentrating on the ball, but it’s also a chance to laugh when the ball does something unexpected (like you unintentionally hit it a little too hard and it leaves the green when it bounces off something), or just a chance to be silly. There’s also time to talk when we’re waiting for the people in front of us to finish their turn at the next hole.
For example, a couple years ago I once went to an art museum exhibit on a first date – one I had been wanting to go see for weeks. I knew within 30 seconds of meeting him in person that we probably weren’t going to go out again.
I like those little examples. If I may ask, as I am genuinely curious, what did you see immediately upon seeing him that did not come out during the phone conversation? It seems so dramatic and sudden to me, the way you described it, that there *has* to be some indication beforehand.
Kate:
Do you realize that not once in this whole thing have you taken a break from complaining for 5 minutes to say, gosh, I hate to think I’m making women uncomfortable. How can I change that?
I figured that out before I came here. It’s why I came here. It’s why I’ve asked for feedback from the women themselves. It’s why I’m trying to get into therapy.
Prognostigator:
You triggered a thought, is it *assumed* that the next date *automatically* involves coming to *their* residence and getting into my car?I thought about what you wrote, and — if I’m wrong in this thought, then feel free to say so — but if everything we’re doing is out in public with people around, or at places where cameras are recording, it’s hard to see a scenario where I *could* even do something nefarious and get away with it.
But, with the above thought, then, yes, I can comprehend how they may feel in danger. If that is the case, then maybe I’m not communicating right, as I already came to that realization over 20 years ago. Even back then, I’ve always been up front that I would not be offended if they wanted to meet at the venue and bring their own car even after the first meet.
Maybe I’m not doing a good job at communicating this to the women??????? It’s *been” obvious to me.
since we all know that what people put out there (dating profiles, facebook, insta, etc) is a curated version of “the best you” and not an accurate picture.
I seem to be putting ut negatives that are equally as false.
Peggy:
it appears you are/or want to be, grilling/interviewing woman/dates, instead of just “being” to see if there is a natural flow of conversation, connection etc.
Not anymore. After communicating with all of you here, I realize that I *used to* go down a list and check off boxes without realizing it. Yes, I *was* interviewing them, but I did not do that on my most recent meets (late 2019, early 2020, before the pandemic).
Honestly, if anything, I’m feeling as though the process has flipped, that *I’m* being interviewed. Maybe it’s karma.
A few miscellaneous things I thought of:
I read something on another thread on here (Sandra, who seems to be having the same issues I am having), that triggered something in the back of my mind that I never thought was relevant, but I’ll present it here. One woman did tell me that I was a gentleman and a pleasant person to talk to, but she felt that I showed no interest in her on the first meet. I honestly thought I did. I asked for an expansion, but never got one, so I’m still wondering.
I will say that I never have been the “flirty” type. That other post brought up that thought, wondering if something I’m *not* doing might be an issue. That particular date, she couldn’t have felt unsafe, as she offered me a ride home (she lives just a few miles from me). I took the bus in, as it was in the city, and I can’t stand taking a car into the city — where do I put it once I’m there? Easier to take the bus. I wanted to take some more photographs, so I stayed. She just said “oh, wow, you’re a trooper”. Not sure what that meant, but I smiled and said I enjoyed meeting her and that I hoped I would get to see her again.
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I did get one little piece of feedback I’ll present here, for what it’s worth. I was talking to my weight loss coach (I’m about to go back on the weight loss program, I keep gaining because I have a sugar addiction, so I’ve worked with her before). I know it’s a business relationship, she is a little younger than me, we had some extra time, and we have good rapport, and we communicate via phone, so I told her briefly what was happening. She did say that I have a bit of an “intense” personality. That’s the only thing she could see in me that could be intimidating.
What do you think? Could that be misinterpreted?
Yes. Your weight loss coach is someone who wants you to keep paying her for weight loss coaching. She has every reason to just say, oh no Robert, it’s not you, it’s them, you’re great! And she told you you’re “intense.” That could mean a lot of things, all the way up to, “you’re a complete asshole” or “I’m actually kind of afraid of you.” From what I know of you, I think it means something like, you only see things your way, cannot see things from anyone else’s point of view, and will argue for literally years that you’re right, even when dozens of strangers with an interest in seeing you succeed tell you otherwise.
A whole bunch of women just told you mini golf isn’t a good first date idea, and you went off for paragraphs about why YOU don’t think thats true. A whole bunch of people spend years trying to make you understand why women may feel unsafe, and you dismiss the whole thing with “but there are cameras.” And, scene.
And stop asking women for feedback. It’s intrusive and rude to do that. They’re not going to tell you the truth anyway. The only person you should be asking for feedback on dating is a dating coach.
But since I love banging my head against a wall:
You shouldn’t mention to a first date that you took the bus into the city. It puts you in a negative light right away. It makes you seem like you’d be a pain to date because you can’t quickly and conveniently get around. Also you’re cheap, or can’t really afford to date. And the way you just wrote it here sounds negative and angry. Instead of “I can’t stand,” and “where do I put it,” you could have written, “I don’t usually drive into the city because it’s hard to find parking,” or similar. If you use the same language you use here, jeez, ok, angry guy. But again, don’t even bring it up at first. If you keep seeing the person, sure, eventually you can discuss transportation, but no reason to give her a strike against you right away.
That woman offered you a ride because she felt bad for you. You didn’t need to have that even come up. If someone asks you how was traffic or did you find the restaurant ok, just answer without mentioning you took the bus!
The answer to “where do I put it once I’m there,” for many people, is “get there early enough to find a meter spot where you can pay a few bucks to park for the hour or two it takes to have a drink.” Or, “do some research / use an app to find discounted parking spots.”
OH MY GOD – you went on a pleasant date and she offered to take you home and you decided the bus was a more appealing option – seriously dude WTF is wrong with you. Yes, you wanted to take more pictures, I get it, but you chose to take more pictures and take the bus instead of spending more time with this person. Think about that… you said to this person “No I don’t want to spend any more time with you. I’d rather spend time on a public bus.”
And THIS this is why women are not interested. Here was an example where you’d have to put your interests second, and you didn’t.
Put 2+2 together on the “intense” and the comment that you weren’t showing interest in your date… you were going down the checklist and as soon as you got an answer to topic 1, you pushed the conversation to topic 2. And in my experience when a woman says a man is intense it usually means he’s hyperfocused on a topic, may be in my personal space, and does not always accept the answer given (“But why don’t you like this thing that I like? Here are 20 reasons why everyone should like this thing that I like”) or (“Your preference for thing B over thing A is wrong and now I’ll explain to you why you’re wrong.”)
Yeah good point from L. I didn’t even get to that, but she’s right. You turned down the ride, after not seeming interested. Again, if you hadn’t mentioned the bus to begin with, there’d be no ride offer to turn down and that all could have been avoided.
And the “not seeming interested” comment from her. Hmm. It could be just a nice lie she’s telling you to avoid saying what she really thought. But if she’s being honest, that would likely indicate that you didn’t ask her questions that would allow you to get to know her. And/or seemed bitter and pissy. Either one is a bad look. And ok, I’m sure you did ask her some questions, but not the right ones. Here is where a therapist or coach could really help.
Or the question was asked, an answer provided and then you just moved on to the next question with no follow up.
For example, many many many years ago I worked in construction. I didn’t do any labor, but I put on my hardhat and went to a plywood office in the middle of a very large, very visible construction site in the middle of DC blocks from the White House. When socializing in DC the first (and very annoying) question anyone asks is “what do you do?”. I can not tell you how many times I’d tell people that I, a very young woman, work in construction and there was no follow up. Nothing. My answer was “wrong”. Specifically it was wrong because I could not be used as an asset (I know a person who does…) nor could not be used as a measuring stick (Well I work at…).
I mean, everyone in DC is a lawyer or lobbyist – you’d think they’d be at minimum intrigued. Nope.
